I do this MY way, to hell with your philosophy!

[Nuzzolese]

I went to a capoeira retreat this weekend and it was just alright. I thought we'd be learning new things and new moves, fine tuning our technique, but instead it was just a touch of that with a lot more introduction into the culture of modern capoeira.

I'm wondering if other sports/martial arts are like this. This is my impression of it. Macho. Elitist. About control and domination. Almost like a wolf pack where the alpha males get to control every social aspect of the community, under the suggestion that they are guiding the younger ones and protecting them and teaching and sharing with them - part of that sharing is the honor of being in their presence, which I got the feeling was something that I should have felt automatically just because they're advanced in the art.

Is it something you have to enjoy a certain way or else be wasting your time? Is it something you have to do a certain way or else risk falling behind? These are questions I asked myself this weekend. The mestres seemed to suggest the answers to both were YES. They have their own strong beliefs and philosophy about how and why people do Capoeira and they definitely think their way is the best right and only way to do it.

I know it's an art heavy with tradition and ritual and it's important to learn that, it is an art that can teach you skills to use in everyday life but to me that doesn't mean it's not just a game. The contre mestre said "it's not just a game of tag" and I remember thinking that's exactly what it is to me.

I'm torn now on how I feel about these retreats. Do I say "fuck them" and do it as I enjoy it easily and light heartedly and not spend any more time or money on these retreats listening to their ideas about how it's something to do intensely? Or do I still go to them and try to be good at it, showing that I can be good without their philosophy? The problem is that my idea of success at this sport doesn't match theirs. To me it's a fun game of tag, it's competitive but light hearted only, it's not about domination and control and power plays and recognizing it as some subversive defiance against others.

I've never done any other sports or martial arts and my dance experiences have been small. Does anyone understand this situation? Have you been in similar situations?

[fucktopgirl]

what capoeira is exactly?

[cosmo105]

hrm. granted, my martial arts studio was more along the lines of a family-friendly place, but by the time i got into the higher belts (about three-four years into it), it was more about the discipline and mentals aspects of it. but at that time i was still a teenager and very malleable. i took it really seriously. i know my mom's into it now and she doesn't care about getting her black belt, she just does it to stay in shape. in which case they'd probably rather she took the kickboxing aerobics courses.

no wait. they're still getting her money. scratch that.

anyway, my karate instructors taught me a lot in the ways of the whole "samurai mind" and i think i'd be a much different person today if that weren't the case. it really affected me pretty deeply.

i'm probably correct in guessing that your place of practice is a business as well, so i'm sure they don't care too much and won't go home sobbing if you don't put your whole heart and soul into it. it's up to you. if you don't want to do it their way, that's your perogative. you're the one paying them, aren't you?

[Nuzzolese]

what capoeira is exactly?


It's a traditional Afro-Brazilian martial art that is played in a circle with two people doing various kicks, leg sweeps, grapples, head buts and gymnastics while musicians and singers keep a beat and song going that tells the players how fast or slow or how low or high to play the game. It's done like a game, where you usually don't try to hurt the other person but only provide the suggestion of hurting, like you brush your kick over someone or stop short of really bashing them. The winner is the person who kept control over the circle or the other person, the ways to do it are to knock the person down, push them or make them fall out of the ring, or get them all tangled up (block or inhibit all their moves) so they can't do anything. You can only touch the ground with your feet, hands and head and mayeb an elbow or shoulder for some of the flips.

http://www.capoeira-angola.org/what_is_capoeira.htm

[mickill]

Ooooooh, big surprise, cosmo responded, oooohhh. Oooooooh. Oooooh.

I joined a Kung Fu class when I was 11. But after 3 months I was all like "Frig all these friggin animal stances and poses, I wanna kick some ass, man! I'm not gonna scare nobody with friggin aerobics! And I look like friggin idiot!". And then I quit.

The moral of the story: Without discipline, we are undisciplined.

But you joined a cult, man.

[cosmo105]

:mad:

yeah, well. at least i didn't quit 3 months into it.

i quit 6 years into it.

[Nuzzolese]

hrm. granted, my martial arts studio was more along the lines of a family-friendly place, but by the time i got into the higher belts (about three-four years into it), it was more about the discipline and mentals aspects of it. but at that time i was still a teenager and very malleable. i took it really seriously. i know my mom's into it now and she doesn't care about getting her black belt, she just does it to stay in shape. in which case they'd probably rather she took the kickboxing aerobics courses.

no wait. they're still getting her money. scratch that.

anyway, my karate instructors taught me a lot in the ways of the whole "samurai mind" and i think i'd be a much different person today if that weren't the case. it really affected me pretty deeply.

i'm probably correct in guessing that your place of practice is a business as well, so i'm sure they don't care too much and won't go home sobbing if you don't put your whole heart and soul into it. it's up to you. if you don't want to do it their way, that's your perogative. you're the one paying them, aren't you?

Actually, it's not a business. The instructors don't get paid to teach, we only pay to use facilities like to rent a gym and to buy musical instruments and to buy tickets and food and stuff to organize these retreats. All the money goes back into the sessions. My instructor works as a chiropractor and the others do other things too. They won't go home crying if I don't put my heart and soul into it, no. But that's the issue. I feel like I can put my heart and soul into it - by doing it as an act of joyful self expression, as a game that I love, or a sport. What you're suggesting is just what they are - that if I don't let it encompass me the way they believe in it, then I'm disrespecting the art or I'm not really getting anything out of it.

[Nuzzolese]

Ooooooh, big surprise, cosmo responded, oooohhh. Oooooooh. Oooooh.

I joined a Kung Fu class when I was 11. But after 3 months I was all like "Frig all these friggin animal stances and poses, I wanna kick some ass, man! I'm not gonna scare nobody with friggin aerobics! And I look like friggin idiot!". And then I quit.

The moral of the story: Without discipline, we are undisciplined.

But you joined a cult, man.

Discipline for the improvement of technique, but why discipline to change my philosphy of life? Why push the aggressive macho ritualistic aspect of it? I'm fine with discipline to get physically better and that's what I thought the retreat would be all about - but so much of it was obviously trying to retrain us to think like these mestres and to approach capoeira from this dark side of it that focuses on its relevance to society and how you are doing it as an act of opposition to those in power - as if the best way to play is to play as a physical manifestation of subversive passive aggressive attempts to dominate and humilate another person instead of just having a game with a friend.

[cosmo105]

well, i don't think that you're really disrespecting it. i think that you realize that it's not exactly for you, but you still want to enjoy it in a way that's more suitable for you and your mindset. and that's totally okay. it's your decision to go to the lessons, and it's your decision to not go if you don't want to. so you have complete control over what you choose to believe. do what you said. put your all into it as a fun physical actvity you enjoy and don't worry too much about their philosophy. i wouldn't.

[Qdrop]

is it true that they tie knives to thier feet sometimes...
when they REALLY want to fuck shit up?

[mickill]

:mad:

yeah, well. at least i didn't quit 3 months into it.

i quit 6 years into it.
I learned to fight on the streets, man. On the streets, where there is no tapping out, no submission, where you either take the other guy's life or he for damn sure is gonna take yours.

[fucktopgirl]

Actually, it's not a business. The instructors don't get paid to teach, we only pay to use facilities like to rent a gym and to buy musical instruments and to buy tickets and food and stuff to organize these retreats. All the money goes back into the sessions. My instructor works as a chiropractor and the others do other things too. They won't go home crying if I don't put my heart and soul into it, no. But that's the issue. I feel like I can put my heart and soul into it - by doing it as an act of joyful self expression, as a game that I love, or a sport. What you're suggesting is just what they are - that if I don't let it encompass me the way they believe in it, then I'm disrespecting the art or I'm not really getting anything out of it.


i mean its obvious,you do it the way you like it and enjoy it!
the rest is not important,are you doing it to please them or you?
i think the approch you have toward your arts is really good (y)

[fucktopgirl]

I learned to fight on the streets, man. On the streets, where there is no tapping out, no submission, where you either take the other guy's life or he for damn sure is gonna take yours.


pahaha,that why you are killa!
yes and in canada,life is hard on the street :D
(assuming you are from canada)

[Nuzzolese]

well, i don't think that you're really disrespecting it. i think that you realize that it's not exactly for you, but you still want to enjoy it in a way that's more suitable for you and your mindset. and that's totally okay. it's your decision to go to the lessons, and it's your decision to not go if you don't want to. so you have complete control over what you choose to believe. do what you said. put your all into it as a fun physical actvity you enjoy and don't worry too much about their philosophy. i wouldn't.

I don't experience this aspect of it at my weekly lessons. Those are so laid back and fun, just trying to get better at it. I only see this philosophical aspect at yearly retreats with the more advanced guys (those we are ultimately supposed to be emulating)

I think it should be okay to interpret sports and arts in your own way without diluting them. As soon as something is done for pure pleasure, it becomes meaningless and frivolous and without social consequences. Why is that? Why can't a fun game of a community of people be important just becuase it is fun and it is community and about personal expression and building your own little culture together? Fun is important. Why dilute THAT with aggression and politics?

[cosmo105]

that's what i meant - it's your decision whether or not you attend the retreats. if they're not for you, don't go. simple as that. i don't think you're missing out on anything.

[mickill]

pahaha,that why you are killa!
yes and in canada,life is hard on the street :D
(assuming you are from canada)
No, I'm from Rochester. It's pretty crazy out here. People getting killed right in front of me everyday, it's pretty routine. I see at least 3 or 4 murdered bodies on the sidewalk to and from work each day. I'M SO SICK OF IT. But hey, what can I do? It's the cards that were dealt to me. I just play my hand and hope to come up roses.

[Nuzzolese]

are you doing it to please them or you?



I want to do it to please me but still impress them and get respect. I admire them for how good they are at it. Their comments about my form and all of that are important to me. That's why a part of me wants to go back next year and show them that I can be good at it and not care about winning and being the alpha male, and have as much fun as anyone else just because I'm doing it artfully and beautifully - but I can't figure out how to do that because they'd just knock you down once they realised you weren't trying to maintain a stronghold as upcoming leader.

[Nuzzolese]

I learned to fight on the streets, man. On the streets, where there is no tapping out, no submission, where you either take the other guy's life or he for damn sure is gonna take yours.

That's the tradition from which this game came from. I'm supposed to respect that and keep conscious of it while learning this. But it's kind of hard to do when you've always felt relatively safe from harm.

[Echewta]

That's why a part of me wants to go back next year and show them that I can be good at it

They succeeded. First it will be to impress and then it will be to better them.

[Nuzzolese]

They succeeded. First it will be to impress and then it will be to better them.

I'm not totally against them. I wish I could find a way to do it my way and avoid their blows and deny their ideas.

[Qdrop]

go to the retreat...
challenge the head dude to fight.
kick his ass.
assume control.

make your own rules...


you keep what you kill.

[Echewta]

and practice nuzz by waxing cars and painting fences. Wear a headband to keep the hair out of your eyes.

[fucktopgirl]

No, I'm from Rochester. It's pretty crazy out here. People getting killed right in front of me everyday, it's pretty routine. I see at least 3 or 4 murdered bodies on the sidewalk to and from work each day. I'M SO SICK OF IT. But hey, what can I do? It's the cards that were dealt to me. I just play my hand and hope to come up roses.


yea, you are a real gansta!

i read in one thread that you where from canada!
i guess those people where in the field ,eating grass with cow

or else you just messing around with me :D

[Nuzzolese]

I'm aggressively nonviolent.

[Qdrop]

No, I'm from Rochester. It's pretty crazy out here. People getting killed right in front of me everyday, it's pretty routine. I see at least 3 or 4 murdered bodies on the sidewalk to and from work each day. I'M SO SICK OF IT. But hey, what can I do? It's the cards that were dealt to me. I just play my hand and hope to come up roses.

sadly enough, Rochester does have the highest murder-per-capita rate in NY. higher than NYC.
and among the highest in the US.

[Nuzzolese]

I'm going to decorate my berimbau with stickers and glitter and sequins and ribbons. They told us our energy is appreciated even if we don't know everything technically - but what they mean is energy the way THEY want it expressed. You have to bow down to your superiors and let them have their way. I was the only girl there. I mean, there was one other girl but she was rather mannish and was a true beginner so she could barely play. I should use my femaleness as a distinction. You know, play in heels and makeup and distract them by dropping birth control pills all over the floor for them to slip slip slide on like marbles or something.

[mickill]

sadly enough, Rochester does have the highest murder-per-capita rate in NY. higher than NYC.
and among the highest in the US.
I know, man. It's like The Congo up in this muhfucca.

[cosmo105]

hahaha. wear false eyelashes and constantly be bitching about pms cramps. and your berimbau? two words. Lisa. Frank.

[Qdrop]

I know, man. It's like The Congo up in this muhfucca.

stay strong, mike. *makes random gang symbol*

[Nuzzolese]

hahaha. wear false eyelashes and constantly be bitching about pms cramps. and your berimbau? two words. Lisa. Frank.

Lisa Frank? Two words. LOVE IT.

[adam_f]

Wu-Tang Clan ain't nothin to fuck with.

[mickill]

Wu-Tang Clan ain't nothin to fuck with.
Hey. Wow. Hey, do youl like rap? That's so awesome that you like rap. I'm just guessing that you like rap since you made some conspicuous reference to Wu-Tang Clan who are like a total rap group, right? That's so cool. How you did that. I see the connection, too, since the thread is like totally about martial arts and you cleverly jumped in with the Wu-Tang post which was really kick ass. I like that.(y)

[adam_f]

Originally posted by mickill
Hey. Wow. Hey, do youl like rap? That's so awesome that you like rap. I'm just guessing that you like rap since you made some conspicuous reference to Wu-Tang Clan who are like a total rap group, right? That's so cool. How you did that. I see the connection, too, since the thread is like totally about martial arts and you cleverly jumped in with the Wu-Tang post which was really kick ass. I like that. (y)

You rock my world, mike.

[mickill]

You rock my world, mike.
CAN YOU SMELL WHAT THE ROCK IS COOKIN?!!!

[Nuzzolese]

is it true that they tie knives to thier feet sometimes...
when they REALLY want to fuck shit up?

Yes, they hold knives with their toes. And Maculele style is played holding sticks or machetes.

[Nuzzolese]

CAN YOU SMELL WHAT THE ROCK IS COOKIN?!!!

That always makes me think of farts.

[hpdrifter]

me too