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mr junck
12-05-2005, 01:22 PM
THE BEAST – ALL HUMAN BEINGS

This last weekend crimes were carried out against members of the “sexta”. The sexta is a new movement “campaign” started out by united leftists across Mexico to reach the following goals for all Mexicans:
housing
land
employment
food
healthcare
education
independence
democracy
freedom
justice
peace

The Zapatistas came up with the first organizing factor (the spark), and it is now completely democratic, and completely peaceful, and is starting to move forward. The crimes were intimidation tactics, including an attempted murder. These are very similar to the COINTEL tactics used against the Black Panthers, AIM, Weather Underground, Raza Unida, the Anti-Vietnam War Peace Movement, and others in the US. These tactics were taught to the local police-military forces by US police-military forces.

If you don’t like seeing good people put down, if you’re tired of Mexican illegal-legal immigration into the US being a problem, if you support activists making a better world using peaceful measures, if you’re tired of the Bu$hit war campaign, if you hate racism, or for whatever reason, we, members of the sexta, invite, ask, and hope that you will do something NOW to go against the crimes committed last weekend.

President Fox should be protested against. It’s no secret that the Mexican Congress and Senate is infested with organized crime. The Mexican consulate, embassy and all federal and state gov’t agencies should be made completely aware that YOU hate injustice in Mexico, and you’re not so stupid to buy the line that the gov’t has nothing to do with it. The US military, including the SCHOOL OF THE AMERICAS, and especially the US STATE DEPARTMENT, should be made aware that you hate your US tax $$$$ being used for injustice in Mexico, and every single US citizen, children included, should know that there are thousands of Mexicans right now organizing, to improve their country and the world, and that we expect the world to support our effort, not use violence, intimidation, genocide, or any other crimes, against us.

Tourists, spring breakers, you should know that there are a lot of serious people here trying to improve things, that the police and gov’t are corrupt, and that the US gov’t is backing the criminals here who are going against the good people trying to improve things. That includes backing all the corrupt politicians and religious people linked to the drug lords. We all know, and the CIA knows who they are. Don’t take shit from people that are either ignorant or corrupt, neither here, nor there.

The Zapatistas warned the US Senate in 1995 that we do not want another Vietnam here, and we hope that you do not want another one on your border. That is not a threat. If the peaceful people can’t get the job done, maybe one day the oldtimer war mongers, will take our place. The C I A thinks it knows everything; well there are 2 million “clandestine” Mexicans in the US right now. Let us improve our country by peaceful means; educate and criticize ignorance. Speak out and support us, and by all means, if you want to know, inform yourself and participate, your help by many means necessary is welcome. We haven’t gotten to “any” yet, and let’s hope we never do.

http://www.ezln.org.mx

Yours Truly,
C Kevin Junck


------------------------------------------
A la Sociedad Civil Nacional e Internacional
A las Organizaciones Indêgenas
A los Organismos de Derechos Humanos.

Hoy 2 de diciembre de 2005, a las 7:00 horas de la mañana fue detenido nuestro
compañero Joel Aquino Maldonado , de la comunidad de Villa Hidalgo Yalalag, Villa Alta
Oaxaca, por la policêa ministerial de la comunidad, previamente apoyada por la
sindicatura municipal del municipio de Yalalag.

ANTECEDENTES:
PRIMERO: El 7 de marzo del año 2000, una gran parte de la población yalalteca
inconforme por la forma de administración del municipio, realizó la toma de palacio
municipal, ante esto los aliados de la autoridad de ese año trataron de recuperar el
palacio con armas de fuego, en la cual resultó muerto el C. Roberto Limeta Cisneros .
SEGUNDO: Después de este incidente fueron aprehendido 34 compañeros Yalaltecos que
habêan participado en la toma de Palacio, que tiempo después salieron libres porque las
pruebas no fueron suficientes en esta investigación de parte del ministerio publico no
hubo una investigación seria pues no hubo aportación de pruebas claves como la
pericial, ni de balêstica, todo se sustento en declaraciones de testigos y sus
testimonios falsos, los cuales señalan a Joel Aquino Maldonado, como responsable de la
muerte del Sr. Roberto Limeta, siendo que el no estuvo presente en el lugar de los hechos.
Sorprende que ahora a 5 años de los sucesos, las Autoridades Municipales y estatales
estén removiendo el caso, cuando en los últimos años la comunidad esta logrando tener
un ambiente de tranquilidad, a partir de la conformación de ayuntamientos plurales, tal
es el caso de que para el siguiente años 2006, ya esta integrada el nuevo ayuntamiento y
esta elección se dio de manera totalmente pacêfica.
Joel Aquino es un compañero que ha luchado por que haya respeto a las comunidades
Indêgenas, a que tanto el gobierno, como al interior de las mismas haya respeto ante
todos, por ello estamos indignados por esta injusticia que se esta cometiendo.
Urgimos al gobierno estatal que tome cartas en el asunto y cuanto antes se ponga en
libertad a nuestro compañero Joel Aquino Maldonado.
Les pedimos envêen sus acciones urgentes al juzgado Mixto de Villa Alta, al tel. y fax
50 3 31 32.

Atentamente.
TALLER DE LENGUA Y TRADICION ZAPOTECA DE YALALAG “UKEN KE UKEN”



------------------------------------------

Ahora en Campeche.
DENUNCIAMOS NUEVAS PROVOCACIONES POLICIACAS CONTRA MILITANTES DE "LA OTRA CAMPAÑA"

Agentes de Gobernación federal se presentaron, el sábado pasado, en el negocio de militantes del PRT (Partido Revolucionario de los Trabajadores) en Candelaria, Campeche, para tratar de intimidarlos y provocarlos con motivo de su participación en "la otra campaña" que ha propuesto el EZLN (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional).
Baldemar Góngora es el agente de Gobernación que se identificó al presentarse en una farmacia donde trabajan la compañera Sara López y Joaquên Aguilar, ambos integrantes del Comité Municipal del PRT en aquella localidad campechana ya fronteriza con Guatemala.
No es un secreto que el PRT ha asistido en Chiapas a las asambleas preparatorias de "la otra campaña" que ha propuesto el EZLN y que en ese marco ha establecido un compromiso de participación. El agente de Gobernación que interrogó a los compañeros Sara y Joaquên en Candelaria, además de presumir de contar con mucha información personal sobre ellos, les preguntaba sobre la asamblea que realizarêan el sábado pasado en una comunidad cercana a "la raya" con Guatemala. Efectivamente, la asamblea es otra más que se realiza en la región para preparar "la otra campaña" que iniciará en enero con la gira del Subcomandante Marcos precisamente en la penênsula de Yucatán. Si bien la realización de estas asambleas y otras labores de difusión de "la otra campaña" no son secretas ni clandestinas, tampoco tienen que ser vigiladas o autorizadas por Gobernación pues se trata de un derecho polêtico que estamos ejerciendo.
Rechazamos todo intento de intimidación contra nuestros militantes activos en "la otra campaña" y en cualquier actividad polêtica. Rechazamos también la insinuación de que estas asambleas en Campeche son supuestamente para el objetivo de preparación militar. El PRT, junto con otras organizaciones polêticas de izquierda anticapitalista y movimientos sociales, asê como el EZLN, ejercemos un derecho al realizar nuestra actividad polêtica de organización, difusión y propaganda en el marco de "la otra campaña" y no renunciaremos a ese derecho.
México, D. F. a 29 de noviembre de 2005
PARTIDO REVOLUCIONARIO DE LOS TRABAJADORES



Edgard Sánchez Ramêrez
Por el Comité Polêtico del PRT
--------------------------------------
DENUNCIAMOS AGRESIONES EN SAN CRISTÓBAL, CHIAPAS

Somos un grupo de 15 a 20 organizaciones sociales y organismos de la sociedad civil
y otras tantas personas a têtulo individual que hemos conformado un espacio,
deliberadamente no estructurado ni constituido formalmente. Nos une desde hace dos
meses el interés, la decisión de preparar, difundir, promover, operativizar y poner
en marcha en nuestra región de San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas, LA OTRA
CAMPAÑA propuesta por el EZLN en su SEXTA DECLARACIÓN DE LA SELVA LACANDONA (Los Zapatistas nos identifican como “La Otra Coleta”).

Los compañeros Gustavo Jiménez Pérez y Luis Gabriel Ramêrez Cuevas participan en
este grupo.
La noche del domingo 20 de noviembre “seis sujetos vestidos de negro, entre 20 y 25
años de edad, con cabello corto, bien vestidos, atléticos...” irrumpieron en el
domicilio de estos compañeros y con armas punzocortantes intentaron asesinar a
Gustavo, quien en ese momento se encontraba solo, sin llegar a consumar su crimen. En
el interior de la casa sólo se apreciaron las pertenencias desordenadas y hurtos
menores.
Dos dêas después, al regresar a su casa Gustavo y Luis Gabriel en compañêa de un
abogado del Centro de Derechos Humanos Fray Bartolomé de Las Casas, encontraron
adentro a un individuo (probablemente del mismo grupo que el domingo agredió a
Gustavo) quien habêa destrozado una puerta trasera para entrar y el cual, al llegar
nuestros compañeros, logró escapar, profiriendo amenazas.
Además de participar en la promoción de La Otra Campaña, Gustavo y Gabriel han
venido denunciando manejos poco confiables e ineficiencia en las acciones que el
Gobierno del Estado ha emprendido para atender a los damnificados por el huracán Stan.
Quienes formamos parte de este espacio abierto de participación polêtica de La Otra
Campaña conocemos, por experiencias propias y ajenas de largos años, los usos y
costumbres represivas con que el poder suele “restablecer SU estado de derecho”.
Aunque obviamente sin pruebas, tenemos motivos para deducir que los hechos contra
Gustavo y Gabriel forman parte de una estrategia contrainsurgente (en los dêas del
28 de octubre al 2 de noviembre en que conmemoramos a nuestros muertos como
preparativos de La Otra Campaña, varios compañeros sufrieron acosos e intentos de
intimidación); que esa estrategia puede desatar una escalada represiva mientras
más se acerca el inicio formal de La Otra Campaña, que esa escalada naturalmente va
subiendo de tono y que será proporcional al miedo que el poder tiene de La Otra
Campaña.
Por esta razón, nosotros NO pedimos una “investigación imparcial” a los
encargados federales ni estatales de la justicia (que concluirêan seguramente en que
lo de Gustavo fue un “intento de suicidio”).. Tampoco “solicitamos” medidas de
protección para los compañeros, porque somos muy mal pensados...
Sólo denunciamos ante la opinión pública los hechos descritos y prevenimos a todos
cuantos en el paês se han adherido a La Otra Campaña de lo que nos puede seguir
sucediendo a todos los que nos embarcamos en esta aventura de querer construir otro
México de y para todos.
Nuestra Campaña es totalmente legal, transparente y democrática y exigimos el cese
de medidas represivas contra los y las que integramos esta alternativa polêtica en
construcción.

Responsable(s) de la publicación:
Fernando Michel Corona
(967) 674-0603

--------------------------------------




PS.... IT SUCKS PUTTING POLITICAL STUFF TO ONE SIDE HERE ON THE BOARD, MAYBE IT COULD BE MARKED, FOR QUICKER ACCESS OR AVOIDANCE, BUT IGNORANCE SHOULD NOT BE AN OPTION....


ONE LOVE ONE BOARD

http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/english/babo/lee/womenatblackpanther.jpg

http://www.rantburg.com/images/execution.jpg

http://www.msu.edu/~kendri13/atl/black_women.jpg

http://www.msu.edu/~kalinow5/gallery1/images/mexican-woman.jpg

http://www.sidecinema.com/radical%20pictures/Zapatista.jpg

http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/agp/free/mexico/equipo_futbol_zapatista.jpg

sam i am
12-05-2005, 01:46 PM
Wow.

Glad there were no veiled threats against the US in there :rolleyes:

Anyhow...as for the situation in Mexico...why don't you all down there start advocating for annexation by the US? Let's make North AMerica one big country not just economically (via NAFTA) but also politically and socailly as well?

Give MExicans equal voting rights AND education. Improve the social safety net, stamp out corruption, and live by the rule of law...

Viva la annexiacion!

mr junck
12-05-2005, 01:56 PM
WHEN YOU LEARN AN iNDIGENOUS LANGUAGE, OR KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT JUSTICE, SURE BRO...BY THE WAY, i'VE GOT cANADIAN NATIONALITY TOO...ANY SHOTS AT THE CANADIANS ?


REAL FUNNY, COPS TRY TO KILL GOOD PEOPLE
HA
HA
HA

911 IS A JOKE

sam i am
12-05-2005, 02:35 PM
WHEN YOU LEARN AN iNDIGENOUS LANGUAGE, OR KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT JUSTICE, SURE BRO...BY THE WAY, i'VE GOT cANADIAN NATIONALITY TOO...ANY SHOTS AT THE CANADIANS ?


REAL FUNNY, COPS TRY TO KILL GOOD PEOPLE
HA
HA
HA

911 IS A JOKE

Dude. I'm dead serious.

Mexico AND the US would greatly benefit from merging...larger tax base...improved quality of life for Mexicans....voting rights not tainted by corruption (unless you believe some on these message boards)....less barriers to travel and trade....bi-lingualism for the next few generations....

Sounds good to me.

Es verdad...hablo espanol con muy facil....

mr junck
12-05-2005, 04:55 PM
bueno hermano (y) ,,

no se si tenerte en serio pero de todos modos no hemos visto ningun beneficio despues de la anexacion de Texas, California, Arizona, y New Mexico(1848)*, y los politicos han tenido muchos años para corrigir este problema, sin resulto positivo. Ademas, pronto China va a anexar a los EU, osea, adentro de los proximos 30 años, creo yo, entonces ¿ para que ?

¿ falta de corrupcion ?

¿ que quiere decir COINTEL GOIN DOWN parati hermano ? ¿ o la CIA ? ¿ gobierno honesto en los estados unidos ?

Si realmente eres serio entonces te hace falta ler este libro:

www.killinghope.com

Te invito a venir a las comunidades Indigenas Zapatistas, y tambien hacer una visita a los reservaciones Indigenas de EUA,

Peace Bro,

¡ SMARTASSES, DOPES, AND PAID OFFS UNITE AND FIGHT THE ENEMY (worldwide ignorance) !

*estamos todavia recuperando este territorio, en preparacion para lo que viene.....

EN[i]GMA
12-05-2005, 05:19 PM
Hey, schools out for the day and so are my Spanish skills.

English. Post in it.

sam i am
12-05-2005, 05:25 PM
bueno hermano (y) ,,

no se si tenerte en serio pero de todos modos no hemos visto ningun beneficio despues de la anexacion de Texas, California, Arizona, y New Mexico(1848)*, y los politicos han tenido muchos años para corrigir este problema, sin resulto positivo. Ademas, pronto China va a anexar a los EU, osea, adentro de los proximos 30 años, creo yo, entonces ¿ para que ?

¿ falta de corrupcion ?

¿ que quiere decir COINTEL GOIN DOWN parati hermano ? ¿ o la CIA ? ¿ gobierno honesto en los estados unidos ?

Si realmente eres serio entonces te hace falta ler este libro:

www.killinghope.com

Te invito a venir a las comunidades Indigenas Zapatistas, y tambien hacer una visita a los reservaciones Indigenas de EUA,

Peace Bro,

¡ SMARTASSES, DOPES, AND PAID OFFS UNITE AND FIGHT THE ENEMY (worldwide ignorance) !

*estamos todavia recuperando este territorio, en preparacion para lo que viene.....

Si. Por favor....repuesto esto en ingles para las todos que no hablamos espanol necesitamos leer. Gracias, amigo.

Ali
12-07-2005, 02:23 AM
Anyhow...as for the situation in Mexico...why don't you all down there start advocating for annexation by the US? Let's make North AMerica one big country not just economically (via NAFTA) but also politically and socailly as well?
"You all down there" what in tarnation kinda Fool thing is that to say?

Sure, thing, Gringo. Come take our oil, we don't want it :rolleyes:

Wasn't Texas and New Mexico once a part of Mexico? Until all that oil got found?

Funkaloyd
12-07-2005, 03:58 AM
It wasn't oil so much as religious fundamentalism. "Manifest Destiny" and whatnot.

Ali
12-07-2005, 09:05 AM
It wasn't oil so much as religious fundamentalism. "Manifest Destiny" and whatnot.Ah. No difference there, then.

And there was once a bit of oil in Texas,which was once a part of Mexico, waznit?

I heard a story that that was when cannabis became illegal in the US... either that or the Du Pont conspiracy. Whatever. I was stoned. I forget.

mr junck
12-07-2005, 11:12 AM
HEY
i'm startin to like these people....

BEASTIES....

THE BRO SAID THAT HE WAS DOWN FOR SOME SPANISH, so I played with it,

the first basic message here, comes with three parts detailing how the cops are attacking members of the SEXTA, of which I am one; sorry...sometimes I talk like Bruce 'Pai Mei' Lee, just comes out that way...

Anyways 20 dudes in black uniforms, machine guns, the whole nine yards, tried to kill a bro (a member of the SEXTA) in Chiapas, last weekend, and gov't agents were (are) pulling crap in other parts of the country...

They'll never stop us, and much less scare us, the movement is way too big now.

So then the first response to this thread was the bro who said that we should forget about saving Mexico, and consider 'annexation', so I answered him in spanish that, I don't think gov't corruption would decrease, because basically the US gov't are a bunch of genocidal crooks, always have been. Then I answered that annexation didn't prove so great for those that tried it last time around when in 1848 TEX,CA,NM, AR all became USA.

Just to be a smartass, I also mentionnned that it looks like China is going to annex the US within the next 30 years, so what's the point ?

I dropped this link:

www.killinghope.com

which I figure is THE scripture for anyone wanting the digs on the SEE EYE EH("seeya" in spanish).

So PEACE Y'ALL
GET ALONG LITTLE DOGGY
ROLLIN ROLLIN ROLLIN ALL THE FIELDS ARE STROLLIN'
....

oh yeah...if you go fishin in this page you can find some english language stuff, and participate by all means...join the SEXTA...
www.ezln.org.mx

ASsman
12-07-2005, 03:14 PM
Sam is onto something here. Let's make Mexico better by making everyone "equal", except for the poor people, they have to stay poor, it's the american way. Also less corruption, or atleast don't make it so obvious, jesus have you guys learned nothing from your Gringo neighboors.

catatonic
12-07-2005, 03:16 PM
I'll tend to read this thread more thoroughly later.

sam i am
12-07-2005, 03:21 PM
Sam is onto something here. Let's make Mexico better by making everyone "equal", except for the poor people, they have to stay poor, it's the american way. Also less corruption, or atleast don't make it so obvious, jesus have you guys learned nothing from your Gringo neighboors.

Assman....always on to me :cool:

Anyhow, I was actually serious about the merging (if you prefer that term over annexation) of the US, Mexico, and Canada, for that matter.

It's already nearly an economic reality...why not make it a political and territorial reality as well? The standards of living for all would definitely improve.

Mexicans who are born in the US already become US citizens automatically. Same with anyone else born in the US. So...it's not that great a leap to make us all into one country.

Just imagine the negotiations to create a new government....the debate over civil and economic rights....the health care debate....

ah....

fodder for years on the BBMB! (y)




Just as a P.S. BTW....China is a paper tiger until they have enough military might to make their economic assertions reality. Same with Venezuela.

sam i am
12-07-2005, 03:30 PM
"You all down there" what in tarnation kinda Fool thing is that to say?

Sure, thing, Gringo. Come take our oil, we don't want it :rolleyes:

Wasn't Texas and New Mexico once a part of Mexico? Until all that oil got found?

I LOVE to throw in colloquialisms on occasion...it humanizes me to some extent, I hope. That was the reason for the "you all down there." ;)

A little history lesson for you, ali : yes, the areas that now encompass Texas and New Mexico were once a part of Mexico. Mexico was a part of Spain's foreign holdings in the Americas. Mexico lost the Mexican-American War of 1846-1848. Texas became a self-proclaimed and self-governing Republic. The US later annexed Texas when the citizens of the Republic of Texas ASKED for annexation.

As for New Mexico, it was ceded to the US as spoils of war.

Neither event had ANYTHING to do with oil...not that it would stop your rolley-eyes in your ignorance (or, perhaps, your self-proclaimed drug-induced delusions)....

Schmeltz
12-07-2005, 04:53 PM
I don't know about Mexico, but I can tell you right now that pretty much nobody in Canada would want anything to do with being part of the United States. I consider myself a pretty non-violent person, but I'd definitely take up arms to stop that from happening, and I'm pretty sure most of the people I know would as well.

There's just no fucking way. I've been to America. I know what it's like. There are good reasons why I don't live there.

STANKY808
12-07-2005, 05:09 PM
Assman....always on to me :cool:

Anyhow, I was actually serious about the merging (if you prefer that term over annexation) of the US, Mexico, and Canada, for that matter.

It's already nearly an economic reality...why not make it a political and territorial reality as well? The standards of living for all would definitely improve.



You mean we can have a death row too!?

And those who love another person not of the opposite sex can be second class citizens?

We can have a drug war?

A "war" on terror?

A two party electoral system?

Yes, there is so much Canada is missing out on.

QueenAdrock
12-07-2005, 05:39 PM
Hey. HEY. :mad:
























































...You can also be severely overweight and own a shotgun.

Ali
12-08-2005, 04:09 AM
Neither event had ANYTHING to do with oil...not that it would stop your rolley-eyes in your ignorance (or, perhaps, your self-proclaimed drug-induced delusions)....Yeah, "Manifest Destiny" was a MUCH better reason :rolleyes:

The US later annexed Texas when the citizens of the Republic of Texas ASKED for annexation.History lesson for you
In the 1820's and 1830's, Mexico, newly independent from Spain, needed settlers in the underpopulated northern parts of the country. An invitation was issued for people who would take an oath of allegiance to Mexico and convert to Catholicism, the state religion. Thousands of Americans took up the offer and moved, often with slaves, to the Mexican province of Texas. Soon however, many of the new "Texicans" or "Texians" were unhappy with the way the government in Mexico City tried to run the province. In 1835, Texas revolted, and after several bloody battles, the Mexican President, Santa Anna, was forced to sign the Treaty of Velasco in 1836 . This treaty gave Texas its independence, but many Mexicans refused to accept the legality of this document, as Santa Anna was a prisoner of the Texans at the time. The Republic of Texas and Mexico continued to engage in border fights and many people in the United States openly sympathized with the U.S.-born Texans in this conflict. As a result of the savage frontier fighting, the American public developed a very negative stereotype against the Mexican people and government. Partly due to the continued hostilities with Mexico, Texas decided to join with the United States, and on July 4, 1845, the annexation gained approval from the U.S. Congress.It's the WAY you tell them, sam.

mr junck
12-08-2005, 12:34 PM
wow.....

LOOK ....ONE LOVE FOR ALL NATIONALITIES....AS A MATTER OF FACT I HAVE DUO NATIONALITY MEXI-CANADIAN...

i'm more for a world where people respect differences and learn to tolerate, than conformity and obedience....
still don't got a chip in the head yet...bar code to come...
chip on the shoulder ? i hope not, i just don't like genocide...

THE SKILLS TO PAY THE BILLS

greedygretchen
12-08-2005, 12:44 PM
I heard a story that that was when cannabis became illegal in the US... either that or the Du Pont conspiracy. Whatever. I was stoned. I forget.

Actually it's both. Du Pont and Hearst (hearst was in the newspaper industry) Hearst used his newspapers to demonize Mexicans smoking this "marijuana"-which had previously been a term unknown to mainstream America. According to the articles, after smoking marijuana, Mexicans would go around raping white women. Classic problem-reaction-solution.They did the same thing to the Chinese and the opium dens.

sam i am
12-08-2005, 08:10 PM
You mean we can have a death row too!?

And those who love another person not of the opposite sex can be second class citizens?

We can have a drug war?

A "war" on terror?

A two party electoral system?

Yes, there is so much Canada is missing out on.

All negotiable. Heck....if we can negotiate NAFTA, a little economic and political negotiation is not so bad.

Why not join the US and CHANGE things?

sam i am
12-08-2005, 08:15 PM
Yeah, "Manifest Destiny" was a MUCH better reason :rolleyes:

Yes. Admit you were COMPLETELY wrong on the oil thing....

Manifest Destiny, plus MANY other factors, contributed to American strength and Mexican weakness at that particular juncture of history. The US was the stronger country and took the lands it desired, while Mexico abdicated them without much of a fight, notwithstanding the Alamo.

I will admit that I was a BIT off on my dates for Texas independnce, but my overall point was correct...that it had NOTHING to do with oil, as you asserted previously.

Roman, Byzantine, and military (mostly European) histories were the areas I most studied back in university. American history is rather boring and short, in my not-ever-to-be humble opinion.

catatonic
12-08-2005, 08:53 PM
i DON'T see any problem with them getting land, housing, and all that short list. They could use biomimicry to build houses without depleting the rainforest and forests. No I don't see a problem with them reaching their goals. With proper time and action, they could do it. I read the posts up to the curse words, including the spanish one and some of the link. God is not the author of war, I believe.

Ali
12-09-2005, 02:56 AM
Yes. Admit you were COMPLETELY wrong on the oil thing....

Manifest Destiny, plus MANY other factors, contributed to American strength and Mexican weakness at that particular juncture of history. The US was the stronger country and took the lands it desired, while Mexico abdicated them without much of a fight, notwithstanding the Alamo.

I will admit that I was a BIT off on my dates for Texas independnce, but my overall point was correct...that it had NOTHING to do with oil, as you asserted previously.

Roman, Byzantine, and military (mostly European) histories were the areas I most studied back in university. American history is rather boring and short, in my not-ever-to-be humble opinion.Oh, all right, I was wrong on the oil thing... happy now?

It seems like you think that the US had a right to take land from Mexico, because it was "the stronger country and took the lands it desired". Does it still exercise this right in, say, the Middle East?

Or was the US just spreading Freedom to the People of Mexico?

sam i am
12-10-2005, 07:13 PM
Oh, all right, I was wrong on the oil thing... happy now?

very

It seems like you think that the US had a right to take land from Mexico, because it was "the stronger country and took the lands it desired". Does it still exercise this right in, say, the Middle East?

I didn't say the US had a "right," but international politics, in the context of that time, were much different from what they are today. It's like trying to apply current geopolitics to the whole Israel/Palestine thing and judge warfare and land acquisition in our terms when completely different norms of international relations prevailed at the time most of the problems we currently have occurred.

Or was the US just spreading Freedom to the People of Mexico?

Maybe. Obviously the US has been a MUCH larger player in international and continental (N. American continent ;) ) politics since that time, whereas Mexico was much more prominent prior to that.

Mexico is ostensibly "free," but you have people like Mr. Junck stating that Fox is a fascist and that the Zapatistas are being massacred.....doesn't happen on the same scale in the US.

ASsman
12-10-2005, 07:30 PM
I didn't say the US had a "right," but international politics, in the context of that time, were much different from what they are today. It's like trying to apply current geopolitics to the whole Israel/Palestine thing and judge warfare and land acquisition in our terms when completely different norms of international relations prevailed at the time most of the problems we currently have occurred.
Yah, take slavery for example. Nowadays it would be just wrong, back then..not so much.

sam i am
12-10-2005, 07:33 PM
Yah, take slavery for example. Nowadays it would be just wrong, back then..not so much.

Very funny.

I was referring to INTERNATIONAL politics, not social justice issues nor domestic US politics.

Try to pay attention...it will make for a much more interesting debate in the future.

ASsman
12-10-2005, 07:42 PM
Very funny.

I was referring to INTERNATIONAL politics, not social justice issues nor domestic US politics.

Try to pay attention...it will make for a much more interesting debate in the future.
Ooops. Yah I can see how that is nothing alike, because it's took place and it involves people.. Yah morals differ from domestic to internation matters. Nice job, you have surely put me in my place.

Ill try not to compare slavery with Imperialism again, my bad. It's not like any parallels can be drawn.

sam i am
12-10-2005, 07:49 PM
Ooops. Yah I can see how that is nothing alike, because it's took place and it involves people.. Yah morals differ from domestic to internation matters. Nice job, you have surely put me in my place.

Ill try not to compare slavery with Imperialism again, my bad. It's not like any parallels can be drawn.

Well...if you're going to draw comparisons...why not look at all the European nations that feel themselves oh so superior to the US nowadays and look at THEIR record on slavery?

Who the heck do you think IMPORTED all those slaves in the Americas? Who sold those slaves into slavery originally (please don't look at the Arabs or the more powerful African tribes that committed THOSE atrocities)?

As for your ATTEMPT at humor...stick to your day job...please.

ASsman
12-10-2005, 07:52 PM
Hahah, now you're just pulling shit out of yerr arse.

And Jesus died on the cross. Big whoop. We are talking about the US here, please if I went off topic there, you just ran over a pedestrian ridding on the sidewalk.

And as for my humour, buh sorry I didn't strike your funny bone honkey.

sam i am
12-10-2005, 07:55 PM
Hahah, now you're just pulling shit out of yerr arse.

And Jesus died on the cross. Big whoop. We are talking about the US here, please if I went off topic there, you just ran over a pedestrian ridding on the sidewalk.

And as for my humour, buh sorry I didn't strike your funny bone honkey.

Actually, we were talking about Mexico and I ADDED that the US and Mexico (and Canada maybe) should merge to stop SOME of the problems inherent in all three societies.

How that then went into the topic of slavery is beyond me...but whatever.

How do you know if I'm a "honkey" or not? How racist of you...

QueenAdrock
12-10-2005, 07:57 PM
C'mon, Sam. You're Republican. That means there's only a 10% chance you're not white. ;)

sam i am
12-10-2005, 07:58 PM
I'll never tell....

Ali
12-13-2005, 05:32 AM
I didn't say the US had a "right," but international politics, in the context of that time, were much different from what they are today. It's like trying to apply current geopolitics to the whole Israel/Palestine thing and judge warfare and land acquisition in our terms when completely different norms of international relations prevailed at the time most of the problems we currently have occurred.and the Iraq/Kuwait thing.

sam i am
12-13-2005, 05:36 PM
and the Iraq/Kuwait thing.

Kuwait was represented by the vast majority of the world in it's conflict with Iraq, which is itself a "made-up" country that the British agreed to after WWI out of the remains of the Ottoman Empire, which itself was a coddled together "empire" from the remnants of the old conquest of the Byzantine Empire.

History : http://www.angelfire.com/nt/Gilgamesh/3239.html.

Ali
12-14-2005, 04:55 AM
Kuwait was represented by the vast majority of the world in it's conflict with Iraq, which is itself a "made-up" country that the British agreed to after WWI out of the remains of the Ottoman Empire, which itself was a coddled together "empire" from the remnants of the old conquest of the Byzantine Empire.

History : http://www.angelfire.com/nt/Gilgamesh/3239.html.hence the utter chaos which is the Middle East today.

sam i am
12-14-2005, 11:01 AM
hence the utter chaos which is the Middle East today.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you were comparing the Israel/Palestine thing with the Iraq/Kuwait thing, equating them in some way.

Was I wrong? If so, I apologize.