View Full Version : god's perfection
This is another one of my serious threads so I'm gonna type it with capitalization and junk so it's easier to read.
How do we know that God is perfect? It seems to be kind of an assumption. I studied Descartes in one of my philosophy classes and it kind of bothered me because he takes the position of extreme skepticism, he'll deny everything that he can doubt so he can figure out which ideas he can't doubt, and all that. He tries to logically prove that God exists, but one of his premises is that God is perfect. How does he know that? Alot of proofs of God's existence seem to rely on the premise of Him being perfect, but has anyone ever tried to prove that? Everybody just seems to assume it. Why? Because it's in the Bible? If you can trust everything that's in the Bible purely because it's in the Bible, then why even bother to try to prove that God exists? It's in the Bible, so we can assume that it's true, surely.
I don't know, it just seems to be one of the foundations of theological discussion, but I don't know where it comes from. Why does God have to be perfect? The greek gods weren't perfect, but people worshipped them.
Rene was a boob. He slept over half a day every day and I'm pretty sure he masturbated while scribbling.
oh yeah, don't get me wrong, i have plenty of gripes with Descartes, it's just that i don't understand how he can just flat out presuppose something when the whole idea of his work was to find clear and distinct ideas
Qdrop
12-08-2005, 03:29 PM
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too intellectual for this section.
you need to dumb it down a shade....
skye and echewta are sooooo the same person.
and TS is a crybaby....
I compare Descartes to "that guy" at a bar who is completely hammered and rambles forever. You think he's a tool, but you keep listening to see what stupid shit he says next.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too intellectual for this section.
you need to dumb it down a shade....
skye and echewta are sooooo the same person.
and TS is a crybaby....
i know. i considered posting it in general political but if i did, i'd get smart answers that i'd actually have to think about and quite honestly i am in no mood for thinking today. i generally like to be the smartest sounding person in my own topics anyway
Qdrop
12-08-2005, 03:37 PM
i know. i considered posting it in general political but if i did, i'd get smart answers that i'd actually have to think about and quite honestly i am in no mood for thinking today. i generally like to be the smartest sounding person in my own topics anyway
look, don't give me all that fancy shmancy philosophical mumbo jumbo....
just tell me....is Kll the biggest perv on this board or what?
look, don't give me all that fancy shmancy philosophical mumbo jumbo....
just tell me....is Kll the biggest perv on this board or what?
let us first assume that a biggest perv can exist
Qdrop
12-08-2005, 03:39 PM
let us first assume that a biggest perv can exist
look, smarty pants....just give it to me in plain english...
do you think Nuzz and mickill are doin it or what!?!
look, smarty pants....just give it to me in plain english...
do you think Nuzz and mickill are doin it or what!?!
Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
i do not clearly and distinctly percieve it. i don't think they are, therefore they are not
Qdrop
12-08-2005, 03:50 PM
i do not clearly and distinctly percieve it. i don't think they are, therefore they are not
oh look at me! i'm BOB and i'm soooooo smart with my college and big words and collection of many books...
whatever....
is turd gay or not?
So, is this like The Allegory of Nuzz's Cave???
ask the magic descartes ball!
"i doubt it"
Dude, you're hilarity is transcending threads. Roll wit it, playa.
didn't Noah convince God that he should kill everything on the earth again after the flood? if someone is perfect, how can you teach them that mass murder isn't the way to go?
marsdaddy
12-08-2005, 05:42 PM
Most "remarkable" people in history were drug addicts.
DapperDiverge
12-08-2005, 05:43 PM
I don't know, it just seems to be one of the foundations of theological discussion, but I don't know where it comes from. Why does God have to be perfect? The greek gods weren't perfect, but people worshipped them.
true, true...God can't be perfect, it created this shitty planet, more than likely by mistake!! God must of have been a little kid playing around with crap in the universe and made us (earth). Ya know, like every other kid, God played with us for a while, got bored with our supidity and made something else, something better.
God won't play with us until we get our act together...God just hates to see us fight, and wishes we'd stop! Sometimes our fighting scares God,... don't make God cry
Most "remarkable" people in history were drug addicts.
i went over this in the last thread
marsdaddy
12-08-2005, 05:46 PM
i went over this in the last threadWell excuse me, Mr. Edumacted. Just because we used abacases in my day...
All I'm saying is don't try to analyze why perfectly sane people thought the world flat when the high ones figured out the truth.
fucktopgirl
12-08-2005, 05:58 PM
i am shure that god was a hell of a ugly dude,so he ,indeed,not perfect!
what is perfection?the perfection of the imperfection!
roosta
12-08-2005, 07:21 PM
yeah, a while ago a thought popped into my head.."maybe god ISNT perfect". Just cuz i believe in him, doesnt mean i then have to assume he's flawless...
kleptomaniac
12-08-2005, 07:26 PM
God made Bob on an "off" day....
paul jones
12-08-2005, 07:56 PM
God is the bloke who picks the lotto numbers
discopants
12-09-2005, 04:04 AM
Read some Charles Darwin (Genealogy of Morality I think) on the subject of God's imperfection, basically he says he doesn't care or is evil, either way we shouldn't go so fuckin crazy about him.
ChrisLove
12-09-2005, 10:02 AM
This is another one of my serious threads so I'm gonna type it with capitalization and junk so it's easier to read.
How do we know that God is perfect? It seems to be kind of an assumption. I studied Descartes in one of my philosophy classes and it kind of bothered me because he takes the position of extreme skepticism, he'll deny everything that he can doubt so he can figure out which ideas he can't doubt, and all that. He tries to logically prove that God exists, but one of his premises is that God is perfect. How does he know that? Alot of proofs of God's existence seem to rely on the premise of Him being perfect, but has anyone ever tried to prove that? Everybody just seems to assume it. Why? Because it's in the Bible? If you can trust everything that's in the Bible purely because it's in the Bible, then why even bother to try to prove that God exists? It's in the Bible, so we can assume that it's true, surely.
I don't know, it just seems to be one of the foundations of theological discussion, but I don't know where it comes from. Why does God have to be perfect? The greek gods weren't perfect, but people worshipped them.
I think you need to look at what you mean by perfect.
The assumption that God is perfect is common in philosophy because thats what a God is - a non perfect God is like a contradiction, they are just a super hero or something. If you perceive a God as being imperfect because of war or famine then you should consider the criteria against which you judge perfection, the fact that you see these things as flaws does not make them so.
The nature of God is that everything is the way it is to fit into an ultimate order and purpose, in moving to these unseen goals, God is perfect, if you dont see it that way ts becuase you dont understand "the purpose"
St. Anselm ( a dude who tried to prove the existence of God using logic - and who failed miserably) defined God as " the most perfect being possible" he was Archbishop of Canterbury in 1078 in case you need it for a class
Qdrop
12-09-2005, 10:07 AM
I think you need to look at what you mean by perfect.
The assumption that God is perfect is common in philosophy because thats what a God is - a non perfect God is like a contradiction, they are just a super hero or something. If you perceive a God as being imperfect because of war or famine then you should consider the criteria against which you judge perfection, the fact that you see these things as flaws does not make them so.
The nature of God is that everything is the way it is to fit into an ultimate order and purpose, in moving to these unseen goals, God is perfect, if you dont see it that way ts becuase you dont understand "the purpose"
the problem with that philosophy, though...is trying to reconcile it with many of the major religions.
the bible and christianity, for example, set up a system of judeo-christian morals and ethics....which include contradictions, but overall...claim a respect for life, forgiveness, etc.....
this does not jive with famine, pestulance, violence...which COULD all be corrected if the judeo-christian perfection was put in place by GOD.
ChrisLove
12-09-2005, 10:14 AM
the problem with that philosophy, though...is trying to reconcile it with many of the major religions.
the bible and christianity, for example, set up a system of judeo-christian morals and ethics....which include contradictions, but overall...claim a respect for life, forgiveness, etc.....
this does not jive with famine, pestulance, violence...which COULD all be corrected if the judeo-christian perfection was put in place by GOD.
I dont know if it needs to be reconciled with the major religions - this sort of argument is often run to gloss over why God allows bad things to happenv"he works in mysterios ways etc" but I think when it comes to creating a contradiction with morals and ethics, most religions have some crappy responce along the lines of " try not to think about it too hard, dear".
I dont know anything about Decartes but I assume as a logical thinker he would not buy into religion therefore could safely make the god is perfect assumption without contradicting his own beliefs
Qdrop
12-09-2005, 10:22 AM
I dont know if it needs to be reconciled with the major religions - this sort of argument is often run to gloss over why God allows bad things to happenv"he works in mysterios ways etc" but I think when it comes to creating a contradiction with morals and ethics, most religions have some crappy responce along the lines of " try not to think about it too hard, dear".
I dont know anything about Decartes but I assume as a logical thinker he would not buy into religion therefore could safely make the god is perfect assumption without contradicting his own beliefs
actually, then...your beleifs are pretty inline with human secularism....
ChrisLove
12-09-2005, 10:29 AM
actually, then...your beleifs are pretty inline with human secularism....
this is true
fucktopgirl
12-09-2005, 11:13 AM
life=god
is an imperfect perfection ,its consist of yin/yang force that interact togethers!there is nothing bad,nothing good really,its take both to make it happen!The idea that god is perfect,without a sin,that is a fun story.IT take the negative force and the positive force to make life so,,,negative force are perfect in their way!ya know,that make sense!Religion put GOD out on a pedestal,how his perfection is wonderful for backing up their ethic on life(some are really good)But sometimes i'ts for the follower to belive blindly in their religion,to follow the path of the god and act as perfect as did the god but their is no perfection,so its a lie!
whatever,i guess i had too much coffee! :D
I dont know if it needs to be reconciled with the major religions - this sort of argument is often run to gloss over why God allows bad things to happenv"he works in mysterios ways etc" but I think when it comes to creating a contradiction with morals and ethics, most religions have some crappy responce along the lines of " try not to think about it too hard, dear".
I dont know anything about Decartes but I assume as a logical thinker he would not buy into religion therefore could safely make the god is perfect assumption without contradicting his own beliefs
no, Descartes was pretty religious, but that's not really important, I was just using him as an example; he tries to prove God exists, and (for the sake of argument) he denies everything that he can doubt, but even then he just operates on the presupposition that God is perfect and I don't know where that assumption comes from.
This isn't really a "why does God allow bad things to happen?" question, I'm just wondering where we get the idea that God is perfect from. It's just something that's taken for granted in philosophy and I don't know why. It's like "God is perfect because God is perfect", I've never actually heard anyone try to explain why. I can understand the claim that God allows "evil" to happen because it's for a purpose, I'm not interested in that, I'm just wondering, why do we know that he/she's perfect to begin with? Like I said, the Greek gods weren't perfect, they had all kinds of flaws. People still worshipped them, though.
fucktopgirl
12-09-2005, 11:52 AM
the religion make him perfect(catholic is an example)
Then they could built around it their system of belief,so this is what you have to be on order to be a good person and if not your are a bad person!
Qdrop
12-09-2005, 11:52 AM
This isn't really a "why does God allow bad things to happen?" question, I'm just wondering where we get the idea that God is perfect from.
Alpha Male instinct.
virtually ALL social animals have it....it keeps order in the group.
ChrisLove
12-09-2005, 01:34 PM
The point I was trying to make is that God is inherently perfect its just a feature of a God, the question is what does perfect mean and from whose point of view is God perfect?
God has the ultimate 'point of view' and therefore is perfect.
I take the point about Greek Gods, Im not that informed on greek mythology but I would imagine the same ideas are ultimately applicable to the top of their God hierarchy...
What do you mean by perfect?
I guess I mean, incapable of doing wrong. Omniscient, omnipotent, with an infallible faculty of reason, God always makes the right decision for the right reason, that this is the best of all possible worlds because this is the one God chose to create, being completely aware of all other possible alternatives, that kind of thing. I suppose God would have to be perfect from any and all points of view, because if he's perfect from one, but imperfect from another, then he isn't really perfect, that would diminish his perfection, which most theologians seem to agree is impossible.
I guess I'm trying to inquire why the idea of perfection is inherently built into God? Nobody that I'm aware of has ever undertaken to prove that, it's just commonly presupposed that he is. I'm not exactly a master of Greek mythology myself, but I know that there are myths where even Zeus, the top god, makes poor decisions, lets his desires get the better of him, does things that end up being bad in the end, etc, things that our new God would never do.
fucktopgirl
12-09-2005, 01:59 PM
the religion make him perfect(catholic is an example)
Then they could built around it their system of belief,so this is what you have to be on order to be a good person and if not your are a bad person!
that is why god is perfect!You cannot question it.god is perfect accept it bob!IS not that complicated to comprehend!
alexandra
12-09-2005, 02:03 PM
if God exists "he" must be immortal and have immortal qualities, which makes him perfect in a way... or something.
that is why god is perfect!You cannot question it.god is perfect accept it bob!IS not that complicated to comprehend!
no, damnit, that's the whole point of this topic. the whole point is, nobody DOES question it, and if it's true, then it should stand up to questioning. it is because it is isn't enough here
fucktopgirl
12-09-2005, 05:21 PM
[QUOTE]no, damnit, that's the whole point of this topic. the whole point is, nobody DOES question it, and if it's true, then it should stand up to questioning.
yes bob,ask him why the fuck He think he is perfect!He should bring proof on the table,with some bread and wine!
it is because it is isn't enough here
euh,i am lost here with this sentence?
What i'm saying is, I'm asking how we know God's perfect, and the only answer I seem to be getting is "God's perfect because God's perfect, that's how it is," and that's not enough. I'm asking WHY, or how do we know that? Sometimes philosophers will try to prove that God exists, but generally, a key premise of the argument is that God is perfect but I'm asking why is it safe to just assume that? If it's safe to assume that, then it's safe to assume that God exists, too, so what's the point of trying to prove it?
fucktopgirl
12-09-2005, 11:38 PM
it is not safe to assume that god is perfect because its a lie!
there is no god,it's a human invention!there is life,that is a true reality,tangible ,that we experience everyday!
what pretentious faggot made this gay thread
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