Higher education is not for everyone

[sam i am]

There has been recent debate here in Nevada over the efficacy of opening higher education (read : "college or university") institutions to all taxpayers and some have argued that actual intelligence or aptitude for learning should not be as important a consideration or impediment.

The true point of higher education is not about learning to get along with each other, as many colleges and universities have tacitly implied. That social skill should ideally have been achieved during a student's 12 or 13 years soent in the public school system.

Some have argued that a college education can bring anyone a higher quality of life. That is undeniably true. However, if everyone in the work force held a college degree, the scarcity that forces employers to offer degree-holders higher salaries abd benefits would disappear, and higher education would become irrelevant to a worker's quality of life. Additionally, in an undiscriminating system, university courses would unavoidably have to be simplified (i.e., lowered to the lowest common denominator in order that the least able would be advanced at the same rate as the most able), thus lessening their actual educational value.

There exist a myriad of other paths to contribute to the betterment of society that do not involve a college degree. By ignoring these other potentially rewarding routes, such as vocational schools and union apprenticeships, which may be appropriate for those not suited for a univeristy education, we (society) does a great disservice to the aforementioned.

Lack of interest, motivation, or native intelligence that is a requisite for success in college and beyond, is simply not inherent in all humans. While the IDEA of a completely egalitarian society may be a nice thing to present to voters, it is simply unrealistic, and efforts to bring one about through bureaucracy are dangerous at best.

As politically incorrect as it may be to say so, the US economy (and almost all other societies worldwide) will always have the need for low-cost unskilled labor, a segment that is NO LESS VITAL than those of median income earners and highly paid professionals.


Comments?

[Documad]

I assume you're talking about publicly-funded higher education, right?

There used to be a theory in my state that if your parents paid state income tax for 18+ years, there should be some sort of public school for you to go to--even if it's just for a year where you take basic classes to get up to speed without it counting as college credits, so that you have a chance to earn your way into real college.

[sam i am]

I assume you're talking about publicly-funded higher education, right?

There used to be a theory in my state that if your parents paid state income tax for 18+ years, there should be some sort of public school for you to go to--even if it's just for a year where you take basic classes to get up to speed without it counting as college credits, so that you have a chance to earn your way into real college.


Yes....that's what the debate is about : publicly funded higher education....but also about the appropriateness of lowering standards so that more people can go to college in the first place.

I.E., should society lower entrance requirements in order to allow more who might not otherwise have gone to college to be able to enter college?

The other problem with grading as a way to determine a particular individual's fitness for college is that grades are often arbitrary and subjective. What's your take on standardized testing as a better harbinger of ultimate outcome in a collegiate setting?

[ms.peachy]

For the benefit of non-US peeps, I want to clarify that in the US people use the terms "college" and "university" pretty much interchangibly. I remember that was something I had to get used to over here working within the academic sector.

My goal with the students I work with is to try if at all possible to get them a college placement at an FE college. In the US, that translates to, I try to get them into some sort of a vocational training program. Some will go on to a sixth-form for A-levels but most will not.

[Ali]

For the benefit of non-US peeps, I want to clarify that in the US people use the terms "college" and "university" pretty much interchangibly. I remember that was something I had to get used to over here working within the academic sector.

My goal with the students I work with is to try if at all possible to get them a college placement at an FE college. In the US, that translates to, I try to get them into some sort of a vocational training program. Some will go on to a sixth-form for A-levels but most will not.You have your work cut out for you, Mrs P. Mrs Ali taught in the UK for several years and said it's Hell... not so much the kids as the parents.

How does education in the UK compare with the US? I hear France is light years ahead of the UK...

[ms.peachy]

You have your work cut out for you, Mrs P. Mrs Ali taught in the UK for several years and said it's Hell... not so much the kids as the parents.

How does education in the UK compare with the US? I hear France is light years ahead of the UK...

I'm not really a good person to ask about how they compare overall, because I'm not a classroom teacher and never really have been in either country. In the US I worked within a science center as the coordinator for their educational outreach initiatives, and here in the UK I work within a specialised web-based learning community for 13-16 year-olds who are out of mainstream education for whatever reason (excluded, bullied, long term illness, phobic, the list goes on.) So whilst I have an appreciation for the logistics of how each system operates, I'm not really in a position to have an opinion about the efficacy of either of them.

[Schmeltz]

Well, if the USA really is moving away from industrial production and towards an information-based economy, as I've heard from a couple of people here as well as elsewhere, then vocational school and trade apprenticeships aren't actually going to be that relevant or productive for very long. What's the point in acquiring a skill that's going to be exported overseas to some guy who can do your job ten times more cheaply? Or given to some Mexican without the qualifications and schooling who's willing to work for less than you are?

Low-cost unskilled labour is on the way out in Western society. A university degree is more valuable now than ever which you'd probably realize if you were able to conceive of higher education not as some detached tower of elitism but as a practical training ground for young people interested in bettering themselves.

[ASsman]

Don't worry, there will always be spics and dumb people to put in those crap ass jobs.

[Qdrop]

Well, if the USA really is moving away from industrial production and towards an information-based economy, as I've heard from a couple of people here as well as elsewhere, then vocational school and trade apprenticeships aren't actually going to be that relevant or productive for very long. What's the point in acquiring a skill that's going to be exported overseas to some guy who can do your job ten times more cheaply? Or given to some Mexican without the qualifications and schooling who's willing to work for less than you are?


but that doesn't include plumbers, local contractors, electricians, etc.

if i need to get an addition to my home or my plumbing fixed....i won't be calling Habib in India....

there will always be a need for that....
and you can make great money at such crafts/trades...

[K-nowledge]

Your always going to need them damn blue collar tweakers.

[ASsman]

Whose gonna drink all the Budweiser?

[Schmeltz]

but that doesn't include plumbers, local contractors, electricians


Sure, but I wouldn't call that "low-cost, unskilled labour." And you might not make a call to Habib in Mumbai, but you could very well be making a call to Pedro two blocks over. Point is that while there will always be a need for more menial labour, it's being relegated to different groups as the economy changes. A university degree or other further education is a good way to hedge your bets.

[STANKY808]

You know, Costa Rica has close to free post secondary education (about $200 a semester with gov't scholarships helping those who can't afford the tuition). They have free primary and secondary education and can therefore boast a literacy rate of 96%.

IMO that in and of itself is a good reason for having access to education for everyone that wants it. An educated population is a good thing.

I may be wrong, but I thought that's what happened in India - there was concerted societal effort to educate the population in order to position themselves in the global market. I'm guessing it worked.

[ASsman]

US masses are educated, just that here it's called propoganda.

[Qdrop]

Sure, but I wouldn't call that "low-cost, unskilled labour." right. so i guess people better get there heads out their asses...and either work for a college degree of some kind, or learn a craft/trade.
cause those factory jobs will continue to disapear...
as well they should.

[/\QUOTE]And you might not make a call to Habib in Mumbai, but you could very well be making a call to Pedro two blocks over.[/QUOTE] what's your point? pedro is still my an american worker. just cause he's latino don't make it outsourcing.

Point is that while there will always be a need for more menial labour, it's being relegated to different groups as the economy changes. A university degree or other further education is a good way to hedge your bets. no argument there.

[Hiebz]

Your always going to need them damn blue collar tweakers.

and you know, they have always run this town :D

[D_Raay]

The last thing this country wants is more critical thinkers; I mean come on, base thoughts and emotional simplicity (mixed with some Budweiser Assman) are all we really need right?

[QueenAdrock]

It's weird. Higher education is for me, yet lower education was not. I still don't have my diploma or GED. Yet I've got a 3.5 at an accredited university. Go figure.

[ASsman]

Buh, fucking public schools. Would have been the best 6 years of my life, dropped out took the GED exam couple months later and passed it without a hitch.

Had some great teachers though, that pushed me in the right directions. Most of which fired over frivolous bullshit, "troublemakers" in the Edu.Boards eyes apparently. Mr. H, first guy to show me how we had created Osama, and how the US raped my country along with many other Latin American countries..

USA!USA!

[Monsieur Decuts]

you really don't need to be that smart to get yourself a bachelors degree.
you just have to cheat good.

[QueenAdrock]

Yeah, but you'd have to go to a pretty shit school to actually cheat and get away with it. Most good teachers can spot it out a mile away.

[sam i am]

All-right...

Q had a point that I think was the most accurate : there will still exist a need for lower-skilled, lower-waged jobs that can be obtained through appenticeships or through passing a vocational school.

Electricians, construction workers, miners, assembly line workers, Mc Donalds hamburger flippers, etc., et al.....will ALWAYS be in demand as societies move from industrial to post-industrial...

[ASsman]

Robots.

[sam i am]

Robots.

Yeah...that'll happen in our lifetimes.... :rolleyes:

[ASsman]

Honda has a robot that can walk down a flight of stairs....

Mix that with the latest in furbie techonology and you got yourself a burger flipping pimple faced minimum wage mexican-free worker.

[sam i am]

Honda has a robot that can walk down a flight of stairs....

Mix that with the latest in furbie techonology and you got yourself a burger flipping pimple faced minimum wage mexican-free worker.

Who's gonna mine the materials to manufacture robots? Who's gonna survey the sites? Who's gonna distribute the materials? Who's gonna sssemble them? Who's gonna program them? Who's gonna distribute the final product? Who's gonna place them in stores or onto whatever job they're in? Who's gonna repair them?

Sure...all those steps are going to be accomplished in the "near future."

I'm skeptical, to say the least.

[QueenAdrock]

We'll build robots to take care of and manufacture more robots. Then they'll take over and kill us all on Judgement Day. But whatever, it was cool while it lasted.

[sam i am]

Queen....you're watching one of the Terminator movies as you post, aren't ya?



AREN'T YA?!!!


Careful...the "robots" (aka the Penopticon) are watching.....

[ASsman]

It's on Bravo right now, a clear representation of the all to human free future.

[QueenAdrock]

Actually, I've got this (http://www.yuanlei.com/movies/big/terminator2.jpg) poster of Arnold, minus the lettering that my dad gave me when I was little because I loved the movie so much. But now that I know about his politics, I'm torn between a picture of a sexy badass man from the movie and my sense of decency. :)

[sam i am]

Actually, I've got this (http://www.yuanlei.com/movies/big/terminator2.jpg) poster of Arnold, minus the lettering that my dad gave me when I was little because I loved the movie so much. But now that I know about his politics, I'm torn between a picture of a sexy badass man from the movie and my sense of decency. :)

T2 was a kick-ass movie (actually, all three were pretty damn good, IMO).

As for the SHORT-TERM efficacy of robots...it's well-nigh impossible to come about with the revolutionary ideas of a robotic society without some pretty serious changes in human nature.

Long-term, who knows....but we'll all be long dead and buried before that happens.

For some more info...see attached : http://www.calresco.org/lucas/compute.htm

I know there are many and varied competing theories on the future develop-ment of robots, but I am firmly in the camp that it will be a LOOOONG time before we see anything close to a truly robotic society.

[Ali]

Who's gonna mine the materials to manufacture robots? Who's gonna survey the sites? Who's gonna distribute the materials? Who's gonna sssemble them? Who's gonna program them? Who's gonna distribute the final product? Who's gonna place them in stores or onto whatever job they're in? Who's gonna repair them?More robots, silly.

[sam i am]

More robots, silly.

BTW, I love your tagline now.

As for "more robots..." OK. When, exactly, are we going to start realizing the true benificence of all this "robotic" wonderment?

[Medellia]

Well we're all going to need robot insurance soon. :mad:

[ms.peachy]

When, exactly, are we going to start realizing the true benificence of all this "robotic" wonderment?
I would argue that we already are. Robotic technologies are being used in industry in many ways that you or I are not neccessarily aware of in our everyday lives.

[Ali]

I would argue that we already are. Robotic technologies are being used in industry in many ways that you or I are not neccessarily aware of in our everyday lives.McDonalds, for example.

[sam i am]

McDonalds, for example.

Ick. There's the problem : I NEVER eat at McDonald's (n)