Oh dear...

[Ali]

Israel should move to Europe, says Iran's leader

Robert Tait in Tehran
Friday December 9, 2005
The Guardian

Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, reignited the controversy provoked by his recent calls for Israel to be "wiped off the map" yesterday by casting doubt on the historical authenticity of the Holocaust and demanding that an alternative Jewish homeland be established in Europe.
In remarks that sparked outrage in Washington and Jerusalem, Mr Ahmadinejad rejected the "claim" that millions of Jews were murdered by the Nazis, but called on those who believe to set up a Jewish state in countries such as Germany and Austria.

He told journalists at an international Islamic conference in Mecca: "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces and they insist on it to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail. Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: 'Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?'
"If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe - like in Germany, Austria or other countries - to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it."

The comments reinforced Mr Ahmadinejad's growing international reputation as an implacable enemy of Israel and champion of the views once robustly expressed by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.

Last night an Israeli government spokesman, Raanan Gissin, decried "the consensus that exists in many circles in the Arab world that the Jewish people ... do not have the right to establish a Jewish, democratic state in their ancestral homeland". He added: "Just to remind Mr Ahmadinejad, we've been here long before his ancestors were here."

The US state department deplored the Iranian president's comments as "appalling and reprehensible" and the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, called them "totally unacceptable".

Mr Ahmadinejad's latest outburst comes as European diplomats have been voicing alarm over statements from Iranian officials ahead of the anticipated reopening of long-stalled talks between the EU three - Britain, France and Germany - and Iran over its nuclear programme.

In an unusual move, the British embassy in Tehran yesterday issued a statement accusing the chief Iranian nuclear negotiator, Ali Larijani, of endangering the prospects for a deal after he suggested Iran could soon resume making centrifuges used to produce enriched uranium.He's really asking for it now. Even I have to say that he is really, really asking for it.

Is he just stupid, or is there a Plan? Both ways, there's going to be a LOT of trouble if he doesn't STFU.

[Funkaloyd]

Ali, your chronic anti-Americanism is really getting tiring. All you ever post is "America this", "America that".

[sam i am]

Ali, your chronic anti-Americanism is really getting tiring. All you ever post is "America this", "America that".

I've NEVER said that Ali is anti-American. Only ace. Get my defensive statements straight, at least.... ;)

As for the Iranian President's statements, it's an unfortunate example of what many believe in the Arab/Persian world. Islam, for some unfathomable reason, has lost it's basic tenet of tolerance of other religions and some parts of Islam have turned virulently anti-Jewish.

It's scary when it's a leader of a strong country in a very unstable part of the world...especially one that is pursuing nuclear technology like Iran is.

Heck....even Russia is getting flabbergasted with Iran over these issues.

[Funkaloyd]

Hah, "Islam's tenet of tolerance", that's a good one.

[Ali]

I've NEVER said that Ali is anti-American. Only ace. Get my defensive statements straight, at least.... ;)

As for the Iranian President's statements, it's an unfortunate example of what many believe in the Arab/Persian world. Islam, for some unfathomable reason, has lost it's basic tenet of tolerance of other religions and some parts of Islam have turned virulently anti-Jewish.

It's scary when it's a leader of a strong country in a very unstable part of the world...especially one that is pursuing nuclear technology like Iran is.

Heck....even Russia is getting flabbergasted with Iran over these issues.Hmm, this is what happens when religion and politics get mixed up (http://www.serendipity.li/iraqwar/blood_cult.htm), eh?

Sam, even you should realise that Ahmadinejad is a Politician first and a Muslim second. True Islam (http://www.uga.edu/islam/Sufism.html) does not advocate violence and nor do the teachings of Mohammed. It is the Hadith, the interpretations of what The Prophet said, written long afterwards and incorporated into the Koran, which are sometimes skewed and which get quoted by those who wish to manipulate the Faithful.

I may not be Anti-American, Uncle Sam but you are most definitely Anti-Islam, are you not?

Is your Beef with Iran or with Islam? Why?

[Qdrop]

hmmm....just imagine if Iran goes nuclear with such sentiments running through the minds of its leaders.

gives you pause...

[sam i am]

Hmm, this is what happens when religion and politics get mixed up (http://www.serendipity.li/iraqwar/blood_cult.htm), eh?

Sam, even you should realise that Ahmadinejad is a Politician first and a Muslim second. True Islam (http://www.uga.edu/islam/Sufism.html) does not advocate violence and nor do the teachings of Mohammed. It is the Hadith, the interpretations of what The Prophet said, written long afterwards and incorporated into the Koran, which are sometimes skewed and which get quoted by those who wish to manipulate the Faithful.

I may not be Anti-American, Uncle Sam but you are most definitely Anti-Islam, are you not?

Is your Beef with Iran or with Islam? Why?

Actually...no.

I think Islam is a wonderful religion and I am grateful to generations of Arabs and Persians for saving a ton of ancient knowledge through good stewardship. Adherents of Islam, in the Middle Ages (roughly speaking, from the founding of Islam to the 900's AD or so), DID make every attempt to spread their new philosophy/religion throughout the world, both by sword (conquest, annexation of lands) and via proselytization (esp. in SE Asia). Knowing the history, I know that Islam preached tolerance of BOTH Judaism and Christianity, as long as the adherents of those competing religions did nothing to disgrace the teachings of Mohammed or the Koran.

Heck, the Koran acknowledges Abraham, one of the "Fouding Fathers" of Judaism, as one of Islam's "Founding Fathers" AND acknowledges Jesus as a great and holy man, much like the Jews think of him. The BIG distinguishing factor between Islam/Judaism and Christianity is that Christians believe that Jesus was THE Christ, the culmination and perfection of God's promise to come back in flesh and die for ALL men and womens' sins.

I am confident that, above, I clearly distinguished between the most VIRULENT forms of Islam, those which preach hatred and jihad and destruction and death, and the vast majority of those who believe in Islam who live normal, day to day lives and would like nothing better to live and let live....as the vast majority of the people around the world who do and do not adhere to religion ALSO believe.

I am also NOT anti-Iran. I think most Americans were mortally offended by the hostage situation in Iran in 1979, when the Islamic Revolution took said hostages and paraded them before the world for 500 some-odd days.

I think the average, everyday, especially YOUNGER generation, Iranians are reasonable, peaceful people who do not want confrontation or war with any other country in the world. I think the current "President" of the country, much like Saddam, has hijacked a country that is VERY important in Middle Eastern relations and world relations. Not only does Iran have historic ties with the US, but also with Russia, Britain, and every other country in the Middle East.

The bottom line is that Conservatives, even most "neo-Conservatives," do NOT want confrontation or war with Iran, BUT the Iranian President is making a HUGE mistake in public relations with his lunatic ravings about Israel and with his pursuit of nuclear technology that is CAPABLE of being weaponized - if the UN Security Council, including Russia, France, Britain, and China, ALL are denouncing Iran's pursuit of nuclear technology that is CAPABLE of being weaponized, then it is NOT just a US problem, but a global problem, that will need a solution one way or another eventually.

Of course, diplomacy, and even sanctions, should be tried first, BUT that is the same route the world went down with Saddam and look what happened....

[sam i am]

Hah, "Islam's tenet of tolerance", that's a good one.

What's your point? Have you READ the Koran ever? Done any comparative theology to see what the major religions stand for and what they don't?

OR...are you happy just to mock and throw flames?

[Ali]

Of course, diplomacy, and even sanctions, should be tried first, BUT that is the same route the world went down with Saddam and look what happened....let's hope they persevere, seeing as Iran KNOW what will happen if they go down that route (as do the US and UK). Both sides might try a little harder to find a peaceful solution, regardless of how long it might take, because both have seen what happens when negotiations break down.

Nice post, BTW (y)

[sam i am]

let's hope they persevere, seeing as Iran KNOW what will happen if they go down that route (as do the US and UK). Both sides might try a little harder to find a peaceful solution, regardless of how long it might take, because both have seen what happens when negotiations break down.

Nice post, BTW (y)

Thank you very much, sir.

See? I AM capable of rational, logical thought and the occasional non-raving lunatic posting :D

P.S. My FERVENT hope is the same...that Iran and the world work it out in a non-war manner. The only country to really be afraid of, if I were the Iranian Prez, is Israel. I read an article this weekend about the Israelis procuring more nuclear subs from Germany and planes that can have the capacity to reach Iran's nuclear facilities. Scary stuff, if the Israelis go after what they perceive to be a mortal threat (see also the exhortations of Hamas and Islamic Jihad out of Lebanon, wholly supported by Iran).

[Ali]

The only country to really be afraid of, if I were the Iranian Prez, is Israel. I read an article this weekend about the Israelis procuring more nuclear subs from Germany and planes that can have the capacity to reach Iran's nuclear facilities.
It takes two to fight.

Did that article mention whose tax dollars were being used to procure those weapons? Perhaps if military aid to Israel were to be cut off and the Palestinians left alone, Hamas and Islamic Jihad would have fewer sympathisers?

Oh, as an aside, are you in favour of a Conservative or a Reformist (Liberal) government in Iran?

[sam i am]

It takes two to fight.

Well....Israel isn't calling for the eradication of Iran, now is it? Nor does Israel call for the elimination of Islam as a religion or that Arabs/Persians should have a homeland in, oh say, Britain or Russia for all the years of oppression and death caused by those European nations.

Did that article mention whose tax dollars were being used to procure those weapons? Perhaps if military aid to Israel were to be cut off and the Palestinians left alone, Hamas and Islamic Jihad would have fewer sympathisers?

No, it didn't. BUT, that does bring up a good point....do you have a link to where Israel procures the vast majority of it's income from?

I do : http://www.cbs.gov.il/hodaot2005/08_05_56e.pdf, http://www.mof.gov.il/welcome_e02.htm, http://www.euromonitor.com/Travel_and_Tourism_in_Israel

Oh, as an aside, are you in favour of a Conservative or a Reformist (Liberal) government in Iran?

Neither, actually. I'd rather see another "Velvet Revolution," where those like the current Prez of Iran and the hard-line clerics are swept aside in favor of an Iran that would embrace modernism, use it's vast natural resources and human potential to trade and grow the Middle East, and denounce the use of violence against Israel.

I believe the next generation of Iranians will embrace such a culture, similarly to what has occurred in Eastern Europe after the end of much of the post-WWII leaders and in places like Vietnam, where hard-line rhetoric and support for war has eroded into commercialization and trade.

[Funkaloyd]

What's your point? Have you READ the Koran ever?
I tried to read the Koran, I really did. But as with reading Mein Kampf or watching FOX News, I can only take so many lies and so much hate before I start to feel rather sick inside. I think that I gave up and moved on to Orwell's 1984, where I could get all the doom and gloom without having to worry about the intentions of the author.

As for my point: Islam's not tolerant of other religions, and it never was. That it once was seems to be a rather recent myth, propagated by certain progressives who want Islamic theocracies to reform, and neoconservatives who want to wage a war on Islam without being accused of waging a war on Islam.

[Schmeltz]

I fall into neither of those camps and I will tell you now that Islam was far more tolerant of other religions, in the past, than most other religions were. Jews were serving in high positions in the courts of the Caliphs while their fellows in Christian Europe were being crucified for well-poisoning. There are plenty of passages in Islamic literature - not just in the Koran - that espouse humane messages of tolerance and mercy, just as in any other religion. And, just as in any other religion, there are passages that set precedents for persecution and barbarism. It's all in there if you know where to look; the actual behaviour yielded depends more on the character of the devotee than the precept of the faith.

[Ali]

Well....Israel isn't calling for the eradication of Iran, now is it? Nor does Israel call for the elimination of Islam as a religion or that Arabs/Persians should have a homeland in, oh say, Britain or Russia for all the years of oppression and death caused by those European nations.Israel isn't just calling for the eradication of Palestine (http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=29077), it's actually eradicating it. Iran sees this as an attack on another Islamic state and therefore as an attack on all Islamic states. Iran also feel extremely annoyed at being included in the Axis of Evil (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1814659.stm) - they hated the Taleban as much as anybody and supported the Northern Alliance. They have signed the NPT, which Israel has not, and are now being accused of developing nuclear weapons, based on a complete lack of evidence, while Israel openly buys Nuclear Weapons, using US Tax dollars!

No wonder Conservative nutjobs like Ahmadinejad get voted into power!
....do you have a link to where Israel procures the vast majority of it's income from? From the proceeds of US arms sales (http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/PRWaW052505.html) to her enemies.

And now, the facts (http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm):

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion—and Counting (http://www.wrmea.com/archives/Jan_Feb_2001/0101015.html)

THE STRATEGIC FUNCTIONS OF U.S. AID TO ISRAEL (http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm#STRATEGIC) Since 1992, the U.S. has offered Israel an additional $2 billion annually in loan guarantees. Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan. U.S. policy since 1984 has been that economic assistance to Israel must equal or exceed Israel's annual debt repayment to the United States. Unlike other countries, which receive aid in quarterly installments, aid to Israel since 1982 has been given in a lump sum at the beginning of the fiscal year, leaving the U.S. government to borrow from future revenues. Israel even lends some of this money back through U.S. treasury bills and collects the additional interest. :eek:

In addition, there is the more than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds that go to Israel annually in the form of $1 billion in private tax-deductible donations and $500 million in Israeli bonds. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government, made possible through a number of Jewish charities, does not exist with any other country. Nor do these figures include short- and long-term commercial loans from U.S. banks, which have been as high as $1 billion annually in recent years.

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.
I could go on... (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=us+military+aid+israel)

Neither, actually. I'd rather see another "Velvet Revolution," where those like the current Prez of Iran and the hard-line clerics are swept aside in favor of an Iran that would embrace modernism, use it's vast natural resources and human potential to trade and grow the Middle East, and denounce the use of violence against Israel.

I believe the next generation of Iranians will embrace such a culture, similarly to what has occurred in Eastern Europe after the end of much of the post-WWII leaders and in places like Vietnam, where hard-line rhetoric and support for war has eroded into commercialization and trade.So, you are in favour of change, you pinko liberal, you :p . You want the current, conservative administration in Iran to be replaced with a more "Modern" administration?

That's exactly what we Liberals would like to see happen in your country.

Sadly, it's more likely to happen in Iran.

[sam i am]

I fall into neither of those camps and I will tell you now that Islam was far more tolerant of other religions, in the past, than most other religions were. Jews were serving in high positions in the courts of the Caliphs while their fellows in Christian Europe were being crucified for well-poisoning. There are plenty of passages in Islamic literature - not just in the Koran - that espouse humane messages of tolerance and mercy, just as in any other religion. And, just as in any other religion, there are passages that set precedents for persecution and barbarism. It's all in there if you know where to look; the actual behaviour yielded depends more on the character of the devotee than the precept of the faith.

Spot-on, Schmeltz. You made my point with much more flair. See? I DO know my history!

As for Funkaloyd's not-so-subtle take on the subject, employing it to bash the Conservatives yet again (what a broken record...is EVERYTHING our fault?), he'll NEVER admit he's wrong, so why try?

[sam i am]

Israel isn't just calling for the eradication of Palestine (http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=29077), it's actually eradicating it. Iran sees this as an attack on another Islamic state and therefore as an attack on all Islamic states. Iran also feel extremely annoyed at being included in the Axis of Evil (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1814659.stm) - they hated the Taleban as much as anybody and supported the Northern Alliance. They have signed the NPT, which Israel has not, and are now being accused of developing nuclear weapons, based on a complete lack of evidence, while Israel openly buys Nuclear Weapons, using US Tax dollars!

No wonder Conservative nutjobs like Ahmadinejad get voted into power!
From the proceeds of US arms sales (http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/PRWaW052505.html) to her enemies.

And now, the facts (http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm):

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion—and Counting (http://www.wrmea.com/archives/Jan_Feb_2001/0101015.html)


I could go on... (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=us+military+aid+israel)

So, you are in favour of change, you pinko liberal, you :p . You want the current, conservative administration in Iran to be replaced with a more "Modern" administration?

That's exactly what we Liberals would like to see happen in your country.

Sadly, it's more likely to happen in Iran.

Actually, that's not so bad, since it's since 1949!!

Oh, crap...you've caught me out! I'm really pink inside! I like my steak rare!

Totally agree with you that it's more likely to happen in Iran, but not the "sadly" part....at least Bush hasn't called for the eradication of another country...just a replacement of it's leadership, then billions to rebuild it into a better place....how nefarious!


Finally, as for Israel "eradicating" Palestine....didn't they just entirely get out of Gaza, which is part of "Palestine?"

Aren't they withdrawing behind a wall on the West Bank in order to give the Palestinians a "homeland?"

Didn't the "Palestinians" originally live in Jordan until Hussein kicked them out because they were too troublesome?

[Funkaloyd]

he'll NEVER admit he's wrong
Nothing that Schmeltz said negates my point. Islam is more tolerant then other religions, even as practiced today, but that doesn't mean that it's not intolerant.

employing it to bash the Conservatives yet againJust the War Hawks.

[sam i am]

This guy just doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051214/ts_nm/iran_holocaust_dc

I would really hope there is universal condemnation for this sort of idiocy.

[Monsieur Decuts]

How can a man sit and be accepted by memebers of the UN whose existance was formed by the horrors that this man denies.

To utter these words are a travisty and I truly believe he knows that this rehetoric will only further isolate his country and sever ties with the UN. What else can be the aim of these comments. It sounds as if he's trying to goat the world on.

[sam i am]

How can a man sit and be accepted by memebers of the UN whose existance was formed by the horrors that this man denies.

To utter these words are a travisty and I truly believe he knows that this rehetoric will only further isolate his country and sever ties with the UN. What else can be the aim of these comments. It sounds as if he's trying to goat the world on.


I'll be truly interested to see how ali might try to defend this one. Maybe he'll go with "but the US gave the Israelis more money, therefore they didn't suffer a Holocaust" argument? ;) :confused:

[Ali]

I'll be truly interested to see how ali might try to defend this one. Maybe he'll go with "but the US gave the Israelis more money, therefore they didn't suffer a Holocaust" argument? ;) :confused:Saying things is one thing, doing them is another.

Ahmadinejad is spouting hot air. Bush, Blair and Sharon are directly responsible for death, destruction and misery.

[sam i am]

Saying things is one thing, doing them is another.

Ahmadinejad is spouting hot air. Bush, Blair and Sharon are directly responsible for death, destruction and misery.

That's a better spin than I thought you capable of....let's forget the Israel bashing for a minute and return to tired diatribe of anti-Bush, anti-Blair, anti-Sharon.....blah blah blah

[D_Raay]

Well, depending on the actual intent behind this, he may just be goading Israel into revealing it's true intentions. Iran also has some powerful allies in their corner that have yet to reveal THEIR intentions.

It's all speculation at this point, we will just have to wait and see.

Oh and sam, the invasion of a sovereign nation right next door, and all the money handed over to Israel to stregthen it's military just MAY have something to do with this.

[minijosh]

I don't fully understand why their president said this on live tv. Did someone pee in his coffee? How can one say that something that has written documentations, less than 100 years ago, say that it never happened? I thought I was uneducated but this goes to show you that anyone can get voted into a powerful position. Now I'm scared, I'm in the front row for a major show and I don't want this ticket. All I can say is that I back what Israel does.

[Schmeltz]

All I can say is that I back what Israel does.


GO GO ISRAEL DIE PALESTINIANS DIE

[sam i am]

GO GO ISRAEL DIE PALESTINIANS DIE

GO GO PALESTINIANS AND IRANIANS DIE ISRAELIS DIE

[minijosh]

This reminds me of a high school fight. You have the smaller guy who knows how to fight and everyone knows this getting picked on by the larger kids who are a small gang trying to prove to the rest of the high school that they aren't scared.

[SobaViolence]

What's your point? Have you READ the Koran ever? Done any comparative theology to see what the major religions stand for and what they don't?

OR...are you happy just to mock and throw flames?

the fuck you know about Islam?

[QueenAdrock]

All I can say is that anyone who denies the Holocaust is either
a) wanting attention, even if it's negative
b) a fascist
c) a fucking idiot
d) all of the above

It's only one of the most documented events in all of history. We've got eyewitness testimony (I highly suggest to read Filip Muller's "Eyewitness Auschwitz," he was one who survived), and still quite a few records, despite Nazi burning of documents. They've got the Wannsee Conference documented, which is the first official meeting where Hitler and his cronies talked about implementing the Holocaust, and Adolf Eichmann's testimony at Nuremberg. And plus, if it didn't happen, where did those 5-6 million Jews go? They're missing. What's the explanation for that?

Ugh. The ignorance in this world is astounding. Though I do believe he's doing it just to be an asshole/get attention, which he has.

[Ace42X]

And plus, if it didn't happen, where did those 5-6 million Jews go? They're missing. What's the explanation for that?

That "there weren't 6 million Jews in Europe, and yet X many came out of Europe and started up the state of Israel, what's that about?" when I confronted a holocaust denier about their views.

Right-wing nutjobs make up counter-facts to support their arguments, and convince themselves that they aren't completely made up.

[EN[i]GMA]

And plus, if it didn't happen, where did those 5-6 million Jews go? They're missing. What's the explanation for that?

Jew-teleportation magik.

[Funkaloyd]

thought I was uneducated but this goes to show you that anyone can get voted into a powerful position.Aha. Idiots are sometimes voted into powerful positions. Amazingly, such leaders often maintain numerous followers, even after it's been demonstrated time and time again that they have little to no grasp of logic, history, science, and national and international issues.

Yup.

[sam i am]

[sam i am]

Aha. Idiots are sometimes smartasses posting on a message board. Amazingly, such posters often maintain numerous followers, even after it's been demonstrated time and time again that they have little to no grasp of logic, history, science, and national and international issues.

Yup.

:p

[QueenAdrock]

Oh, great King Ace is a Holocaust denier as well?

I hope everyone who has embraced the "how smart he(ace) is" mantra reads this post and sees what he REALLY is...

No, he said he confronted a holocaust denier about their views.

[SobaViolence]

i think we should all deny sam i am's existence.

one less conservative american is a good step forward.

[sam i am]

No, he said he confronted a holocaust denier about their views.

My bad.

I misinterpreted what he said.

I apologize and deleted my initial post.

Please disregard and my apologies, again, to ace.

[sam i am]

i think we should all deny sam i am's existence.

one less conservative american is a good step forward.

Go ahead and try. I'm too smart to be banned like that gmsisko was and I represent beliefs that many have in the USA.

[sam i am]

Even the British are getting fed up with Iran :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1666626,00.html

And this is the paper that ace always cites as a great source for anti-Americanism....are they now anti-Iran as well? Is there some great middle ground the Europeans are attempting to stake out?

[Ace42X]

i think we should all deny sam i am's existence.

one less conservative american is a good step forward.

He's been on my ignore list for a while. Ever since I broke him and he gave up on using facts and stuck to making generalisations based solely on his ideology and perceptions.

[sam i am]

He's been on my ignore list for a while. Ever since I broke him and he gave up on using facts and stuck to making generalisations based solely on his ideology and perceptions.

Oh, if THAT isn't the kettle calling the pot black.

[sam i am]

OK, now he's getting PERSONAL!

He's gonna ban the Beasties? Time to kick some ass....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051219/ap_en_mu/iran_music_ban

[Funkaloyd]

He should try to get Tipper to help out with that campaign.

[sam i am]

He should try to get Tipper to help out with that campaign.

Good idea....she'd annoy the heck out of them and force them into surrender!