About Chuck Palahniuk [Archive] - Beastie Boys Message Board

Kid Presentable

12-29-2005, 09:26 PM

As futile as his protagonists' tend to voice existence to be, can he ultimately see any point in addressing the pointlessness?

The recurring theme of a futile state of being means that in turn there is no point in either addressing our plight, nor attempting to change it.

If everything about our lives is so mundane, then what seperates Palahniuk's views? Aren't they just more shit on the heap?

Maybe that's the point.

Videodrome

12-29-2005, 09:28 PM

you got me.

Nuzzolese

12-29-2005, 09:34 PM

I think his protagonists embrace the futility as a pathway to freedom.

Kid Presentable

12-29-2005, 11:03 PM

I think his protagonists embrace the futility as a pathway to freedom.

I agree. The whole 'nothing to lose' theory plays out in Fight Club well. But at the base of it is the argument that nothing has any meaning. Therefore; what meaning does personal freedom have? And how is it not self-improvement?

mikizee

12-29-2005, 11:11 PM

who the fuck is chuck

guerillaGardner

12-30-2005, 10:10 AM

Kid Presentable

12-30-2005, 11:07 AM

The fake nihilist writes books about it.

Excellent! That's the sort of thing I was looking for.

Bob

12-30-2005, 02:54 PM

Yup.

The true nihilist either kills himself or, considering this ultimately pointless too, just sits in a corner staring blankly until death finally comes to him.

The fake nihilist writes books about it.

Having said that what I knoow of Chuck is pretty damn good. Lullaby is a great, great, great book.

haha

i have a fairly stupid question that may be too hard for most of beastie-free but i'll ask it anyways; what's the difference between nihilism and existentialism? they both sort of have a common theme of the pointlessness of existence and so on, and i'm sure that the difference between the two lies in the finer points and i even took a class on it, but i'm still not too clear on it.

i don't see that a pointless existence has to be a bad thing, i think it's kind of liberating. it's like, suppose there is a cosmic order, a god, karma, logos, whatever you want to call it, that means there's a point to life, you're born for a reason, you have a role to play, and you're inclined all your life to try to figure out that reason and you're always wondering if you're doing it right. but if there ISN'T a point, if we are just pure unbearably dark beings and so forth, then there's nothing to worry about, is there? just live till you die.

i don't see what's so depressing about the whole thing.

Kid Presentable

12-30-2005, 08:24 PM

haha

i have a fairly stupid question that may be too hard for most of beastie-free but i'll ask it anyways; what's the difference between nihilism and existentialism? they both sort of have a common theme of the pointlessness of existence and so on, and i'm sure that the difference between the two lies in the finer points and i even took a class on it, but i'm still not too clear on it.

i don't see that a pointless existence has to be a bad thing, i think it's kind of liberating. it's like, suppose there is a cosmic order, a god, karma, logos, whatever you want to call it, that means there's a point to life, you're born for a reason, you have a role to play, and you're inclined all your life to try to figure out that reason and you're always wondering if you're doing it right. but if there ISN'T a point, if we are just pure unbearably dark beings and so forth, then there's nothing to worry about, is there? just live till you die.

i don't see what's so depressing about the whole thing.

Probably wrong, but I thought existentialism adressed the multi-faceted nature of existence, whereas nihilism simply denied existence.

Nuzzolese

12-31-2005, 02:05 PM

Maybe he's not a nihilist and instead writes books about nihilists. But I never saw his characters that way anyway. I didn't gather from them that the message was that life is pointless. Oh, I didn't like Lullaby at all! Loved Invisible Monsters and Fight Club.

Kid Presentable

12-31-2005, 02:06 PM

Nuzzolese

12-31-2005, 02:12 PM

He'd have to write more books to be that. And if they turn out to be like the last couple, I wouldn't be interested. I didn't really like Survivor or Choke that much. They were just blah. I think he just tries to give puppte-like representation of the voices he thinks would represent other young men. How similiar are his books in philosophy to the movies that were popular in the 1970s, where one man is an antihero and the ending doesn't resolve anything or offer any hopes? Five Easy Pieces, Dog Day Afternoon. He's refelcting something of the times I guess, this young man's awakening to wanting to do something important or change his life and through it he learns that it doesn't matter unless he accepts his mortality and find freedom in knowing he's going to die. I guess it would be the freedom to live without frequent affirmation of his own existence.

He frequently mentioned this idea of finding yourself through self destruction. Self destruction as creation. Not to consciously improve yourself because that leads to empty vapid results, but to gain spirituality by seeking the concrete and visible, by isolating yourself from comforts and the things you've depended on. And the reason you want to get to that self destructive end is because that's the height of honest awareness about reality. meh?

Kid Presentable

12-31-2005, 02:14 PM

He'd have to write more books to be that. And if they turn out to be like the last couple, I wouldn't be interested. I didn't really like Survivor or Choke that much. They were just blah. I think he just tries to give puppte-like representation of the voices he thinks would represent other young men. How similiar are his books in philosophy to the movies that were popular in the 1970s, where one man is an antihero and the ending doesn't resolve anything or offer any hopes? Five Easy Pieces, Dog Day Afternoon. He's refelcting something of the times I guess, this young man's awakening to wanting to do something important or change his life and through it he learns that it doesn't matter unless he accepts his mortality and find freedom in knowing he's going to die. I guess it would be the freedom to live without frequent affirmation of his own existence.

For sure. The counting backwards to zero narrative just masks the real lack of anything of distinction happening. It's counting down to an uninteresting cliche.

Nuzzolese

12-31-2005, 02:17 PM

For sure. The counting backwards to zero narrative just masks the real lack of anything of distinction happening. It's counting down to an uninteresting cliche.

He has a lot of novelty in small ways, a lot of interesting little ideas that he puts together - like with the fake flowers and the trash heap of porn and how surreal that would all be. It doesn't seem to mean much except to be dramatic. I think it hooks young men on some fundamental level.

fucktopgirl

12-31-2005, 02:32 PM

i what's the difference between nihilism and existentialism? they both sort of have a common theme of the pointlessness of existence and so on, and i'm sure that the difference between the two lies in the finer points and i even took a class on it, but i'm still not too clear on it..

Well existentialists think by their own,they dont beleive in preconcieve theorys!They believe in life,that everybody are their own master therefore free being!Nihilism reject everything that is there(value,religion,governement..),they even reject life in way,just pessimist being!

i consider myself an existentialist person!!

Bob

01-04-2006, 02:54 PM

Probably wrong, but I thought existentialism adressed the multi-faceted nature of existence, whereas nihilism simply denied existence.

yeah, i think i'm just uncertain about what nihilism actually IS. i thought they denied all existence too (though that belief would be hard to justify, i'd think), but then i was told that they just deny the value of things? good and bad and moral and immoral and so on, that they're all just arbirtrary distinctions...not that they deny existence, but just the worth of the values that are attached to it...but then, isn't that what existentialism is? existence precedes essence and all that. fucktop's definition sort of echoes what i thought originally, but i'm still confused about the difference. do nihilists really deny ALL of existence? so wierd, i don't see how that could work. but hell, i'm willing to try anything.

i was looking up nihilism in the dictionary, and it mentioned somethign about a political nihilism, as opposed to philosophical nihilism. political nihilism is the belief that you have to tear your institutions to the foundation and rebuild them from scratch, or something like that. that sounds closer to what chuck writes about.

nihilism doesn't make a lot of sense to me quite honestly. it sounds like more of a hobby. something you do on the weekend.

fucktopgirl

01-04-2006, 07:52 PM

yeah, i think i'm just uncertain about what nihilism actually IS. i thought they denied all existence too (though that belief would be hard to justify, i'd think), but then i was told that they just deny the value of things? good and bad and moral and immoral and so on, that they're all just arbirtrary distinctions...not that they deny existence, but just the worth of the values that are attached to it...but then, isn't that what existentialism is? .

No ,existentialism deny theory,values, already established, the ones that the government(society)have put up in the silver plate,they dont devalue life,they enhance it by being strongly curious and doubtfull of anything preconceive. They believe in their own distinct minds therefore creating their own criteria,principles and values.Existentialists are fervent believer in life and are certainly not coldhearted in their approach.Existentialism are there to ask and to call into question every single bit of information that come to them!
existentialism is the opposite of being brainwashed and swallow by the system!

Ace42X

01-04-2006, 08:06 PM

Nihilism is literally the belief in nothing (Nihil is latin for Nothingness).

What this actually means is that there is no meaning to anything or behind anything. IE that nothing matters.

Existentialism is the belief that the only meaning to the universe is the sake of existence. IE "the meaning of life is to exist". This can also incorporate the belief that the only point in life is to sew your oats and thus ensure progeny, and the belief that the individual shapes their own life and thus gives their own life meaning, independant from the external world.

As far as I recall, without digging up my notes.

Existentialism are there to ask and to call into question every single bit of information that come to them!

Nope, that's skepticism.

fucktopgirl

01-04-2006, 09:14 PM

Nope, that's skepticism.

ok,so i mean to not believe like an idiot in everything and question it to see if there is a better alternative to the issue,idea/better vision!

GreenEarthAl

01-04-2006, 11:16 PM

What I gotta do to get any'you fancy book readers to turn a page on sump'n I wrote? My books have all kinds o words n shit. You like words.

Documad

01-04-2006, 11:32 PM

I don't understand philosophy, but I like to read his books when I travel. :o

cosmo105

01-05-2006, 12:01 AM

i have a signed copy of Fugitives and Refugees and you don't (unless you're Matt). i read it in the space of about 4 hours on a flight. really good read.

and yeah, that's an interesting point. i agree with nuzz's proposition that he suggests true freedom comes from accepting the pointlessness and embracing it.

Bob

01-05-2006, 11:37 AM

What I gotta do to get any'you fancy book readers to turn a page on sump'n I wrote? My books have all kinds o words n shit. You like words.

i've read one of yours! i'm actually going to show mcempire to one of my professors, i think he might like it. some of the stuff he talked about in class reminded me of some of the stuff you like to talk and write about, like coexisting and communing and respect for the environment and all that jazz. i'll let you know how that goes if i end up doing it

GreenEarthAl

01-05-2006, 03:45 PM

i've read one of yours! i'm actually going to show mcempire to one of my professors, i think he might like it. some of the stuff he talked about in class reminded me of some of the stuff you like to talk and write about, like coexisting and communing and respect for the environment and all that jazz. i'll let you know how that goes if i end up doing it

Sweet. In the new book there's a character named bob. And you're all up on my thank you page. Cause I really appresherated your comment on the first one.

(and bear in mind that the fact that the bob character is dead has no particular relevance to anything)

Bob

01-05-2006, 03:49 PM

haha. well i suppose technically it does because i mean, some day, eventually, i'll be dead. i hope!

guerillaGardner

01-05-2006, 05:33 PM

haha

i have a fairly stupid question that may be too hard for most of beastie-free but i'll ask it anyways; what's the difference between nihilism and existentialism?

I read a whole book on existentialism once and was none the wiser by the end of it as to what it is.

As it is I don't have a lot of respect for philosophy as a subject for study. I look at philosophy students and wonder what their ideas are on poverty because short of lecturing on philosophy, I think their future career will be begging and signing on for welfare.

There is utterly no point in thinking about how and why, etc. All there is is what is right there in front of you. It doesn't matter what ideas you have about how and why. All they will ever be is hypotheses and you'll have spent the best years of your life studying bullshit when you could have actually been making a satisfying career/life for yourself.