Social Equality

[Qdrop]

Country Clubs that don't allow blacks.....racist, correct?

Country Clubs that don't allow women....sexist, correct?


now...

Gyms that only allow women (Curves, ect)....sexist, correct?

feedback please.

[BionicEye]

Gyms that only allow women... sexist.
Gyms that only allow men... gay bathhouse.

[marsdaddy]

A private club can do what it wants.

People who go to country clubs to avoid blacks or women are racist/sexist.

[ToucanSpam]

Your targeting of country clubs as racist and sexist enrage me.

[jabumbo]

people like to make exceptions for things like that


at my university, the engineering school has several organizations. theres the honorary one, one for blacks, hispanics, and women. i don't fit in any of those categories (the honorary is my doing though), and i could feasably try and join any of them, but its doubtful i would be accepted

not that i really cared much, but i always said i wanted to start an organization for those of us who are white, male, and have below average grades. but i know i couldn't because it would be deemed sexist/racist/etc...

[kleptomaniac]

it's wrong, but it's not like they're gonna change or anything.

[marsdaddy]

i always said i wanted to start an organization for those of us who are white, male, and have below average grades. but i know i couldn't because it would be deemed sexist/racist/etc...You're already part of that club. The non-white and females who have the rest of your attributes are probably not in college.

[fucktopgirl]

so what,no big deal!
i mean are you frustrated you cannot go into a curve gym?
Just have a sex change !

[jabumbo]

You're already part of that club. The non-white and females who have the rest of your attributes are probably not in college.


but whats the logical explanationto why i wouldn't be allowed to start an organization that has this?

maybe i can make it even more specific. white male engineers with below average grades and perfect eyesight.

ok, so i get some people who fit this description and go to the school and say "i wan't to start such and such club, we want to do this because since our grades suck, we need help getting jobs"

what would the university say to me that would legitamately tell me i am not allowed to have this club but the others can?

[monkey]

"they" argue that the point of those organizations is that they bring equality to a white male dominated world. in the past, gyms were only for men and country clubs only for whites. so, in order to make it "equal", they make gyms for women. this is basically equal to "separate but equal", although terribly misguided in that concept. it's now socially acceptable to segregate to "help".

i find it ridiculous. but im not bothered by it because i dont let it concern me.

[bigblu89]

That's always been something that irked me as well, like Grambling or Howard being considered a "Black" College, but no University would ever be able to get away with being a "White College".

But like Pauli said, for the most part, it doesn't concern me, so I think nothing of it.

[kll]

why do you care about women who don't feel comfortable enough about themselves to go to a co-ed gym? it's not like this is the hidden mecca for playboy bunnies here... have you ever seen the members of a Curves?

[DroppinScience]

I'm confused here, what's a "Curves" gym? :confused:

[ToucanSpam]

I'm confused here, what's a "Curves" gym? :confused:
A vaginas only gym.

[mickill]

why do you care about women who don't feel comfortable enough about themselves to go to a co-ed gym? it's not like this is the hidden mecca for playboy bunnies here... have you ever seen the members of a Curves?
Well said. Surprisingly.

A female-exclusive gym offers women a place to excercise at without having to feel insecure and/or uncomfortable or like they're being watched by perverts. My wife joined one years ago and I had zero objections to her doing so. I actually preferred it.

Anyway, hasn't this topic already run its course? It's so 1995.

[Sarky Devotchka]

curves is a cult

[Ace42X]

Country Clubs that don't allow blacks.....racist, correct?

Correct, but at least the members can leave their stuff around without fear of it wandering off.

Country Clubs that don't allow women....sexist, correct?

Correct, but at least the guys can have a golf game in peace without some dumb Dora banging on about the neighbour's new rose bush.

Gyms that only allow women (Curves, ect)....sexist, correct?

Correct, but at least the women can strut around naked without beingon their guard for the hidden cameras that are secretly linked to live Internet feeds.

[marsdaddy]

Well said. Surprisingly.

A female-exclusive gym offers women a place to excercise at without having to feel insecure and/or uncomfortable or like they're being watched by perverts. My wife joined one years ago and I had zero objections to her doing so. I actually preferred it.

Anyway, hasn't this topic already run its course? It's so 1995.THE ALMIGHTY HAS SPOKEN!

[mickill]

THE ALMIGHTY HAS SPOKEN!
Um, I prefer to be addressed as IMPERIAL PIMP OVERLORD. I've had to remind you several times now, brothaman.

[CrankItUp!]

Um, I prefer to be addressed as IMPERIAL PIMP OVERLORD. I've had to remind you several times now, brothaman.
You should get some business cards with that title "IMPERIAL PIMP OVERLOAD" on them..if you don't already. (y)

[Nuzzolese]

I don't think it would be wrong to have a gym for men. There are physical differences between the genders, and also, gender comingling while denying the differences and sexual tensions between men and women is just plain wiggitywack.

[fucktopgirl]

I don't think it would be wrong to have a gym for men. There are physical differences between the genders, and also, gender comingling while denying the differences and sexual tensions between men and women is just plain wiggitywack.


personaly,i think that mix gym is better,when i was training i like to see male around,,it's more entertaining to traine,ya know!

[Zonkie]

Country Clubs that don't allow blacks.....racist, correct?

Country Clubs that don't allow women....sexist, correct?


now...

Gyms that only allow women (Curves, ect)....sexist, correct?

feedback please.

i live right across the street from a country club and they allow people of all races and gender in there.

[Nuzzolese]

i live right across the street from a country club and they allow people of all races and gender in there.

I don't think he was declaring that country clubs are sexist/racist.

[BangkokB]

The only beef I have is why does my condo have a sauna for men and then a separate sauna for women? And strongly discourages the intermingling of the two. What's the point in that?

[Documad]

The thought on country clubs is that they're really a mechanism for doing big business deals. If black business people aren't allowed to play golf there, then they have a competitive disadvantage vs. white men. I heard that one of the reasons women aren't excluded any longer, is because when judges and high buck attorneys started having daughters who went to law school, they didn't like their daughters being denied the same advantages they had.

Being denied access to Curves doesn't deny a man anything.
Plus, I think Curves closes at like 6 p.m. every night, so who can go there?

[Medellia]

personaly,i think that mix gym is better,when i was training i like to see male around,,it's more entertaining to traine,ya know!
Working out isn't supposed to be entertaining.

As someone above said, women can get a more tailored workout at a place like Curves. It would probably feel safer too. There's also nothing wrong with men's only gyms.

[Documad]

[marsdaddy]

Um, I prefer to be addressed as IMPERIAL PIMP OVERLORD. I've had to remind you several times now, brothaman.YO WHITEY!

[DandyFop]

I think about this kind of thing a lot. Not necessarily things like the women's gym, but my friend and I at work had a jokey bet going on about who could get laid within the next week (we had some rules - no settling, nobody you've ever done before, etc.) and while it was mostly just a joke, if it had been some guys talking about it most of the girls would have been offended and the guys would be seen as jerks. Hrm.

[jabumbo]

a lot of country clubs started because of the fact that the other ones wouldn't allow different people in. many of them are religiously affiliated. most of them have left these strict policies of who to let in becuase they need more members to afford the services they provide. allthough, a club that used to be for such and such religion is usually mostly that way, but not strictly.


anyone who follows pro golf at all will remember recently the woman who tried to fight with augusta national about how they don't allow women, even still.

[ms.peachy]

Many of the local council-sponsored health clubs in my area have times in the exercise room and in the swimming pool that are designated for women only; partly for women who just plain don't feel comfortable in that way around strange men, and largely for the more strict Muslim women in the area, whose religious practice would prohibit them from mixing with non-related males socially. Whilst that's not a belief system I share or endorse, I respect that those women have as much right to access local facilities as anyone else, so I've no issue with it.

And I do find that for me now, with my big ol' preggo belly, the women-only swim times are much preferrable as these sessions on the whole seem much more relaxed, whereas in the mixed sessions there are usually quite a few rather agressive male swimmers who swim the lanes like they are in training for the Olympic speed trials and have no qualms about bulldozing slower swimmers out of the way. And I respect too that if they are there to push themselves in a hard workout, they have that right; but they are hardly polite or considerate in exercising it, to put it kindly. So I'll stick to the Wednesday evening women's swim, thanks.

[Qdrop]

so basically, many of you are saying it's okay for Curves to exclude men because the fat women need to feel comfortable working out....and not be self conscious....

hmmm...and what if some whitey's say they don't feel comfortable playing golf around negroes?

it's the same ridiculous argument...

segragating on the basis of ANYTHING opens up loop holes for others.
it's not about the reason....it's about the result.

in order to protect some people from segragation, you must protect ALL people...even if some of the cases become tedious.

[ms.peachy]

so basically, many of you are saying it's okay for Curves to exclude men because the fat women need to feel comfortable working out....and not be self conscious....

hmmm...and what if some whitey's say they don't feel comfortable playing golf around negroes?

it's the same ridiculous argument...

No, it isn't. It's about which group has the upper hand - socially, economically, politically, what have you. You can't make body politics not exist by pretending that they don't.

[Qdrop]

No, it isn't. It's about which group has the upper hand - socially, economically, politically, what have you.

no no no...
and THAT mentality is what causes SO many of the ill sentiments in the quests for equality...

it's not about taking care of the minority....it's about making everything equal and obtainable, about not allowing discrimination of anykind.

if you make it "just about the minority", you open the pandora box of reverse discrimination, etc.

equality=equality

not

equality = making it better for the minority.

can't have it both ways.

[iceygirl]

as much as you continue to argue your point it all boils down to this:

some overweight women or women who dont want to workout feeling like they are at a meatmarket, WILL NOT exercise unless it is at a women's only workout place. right or wrong, curves and places like it has made a lot lot lot of people who never moved around get out and exercise their bodies.

so even if it is sexist (which i disagree), can you just imagine that maybe maybe maybe that the result is positive enough to quit running your mouth about how awful it is?

[ms.peachy]

I'm not arguing to have it both ways. What I am saying is that your argument equating the two was flawed.

[fucktopgirl]

then Qtips you should be revolted too about why women and man dont piss and the same public bathroom!

[Qdrop]

as much as you continue to argue your point it all boils down to this:

some overweight women or women who dont want to workout feeling like they are at a meatmarket, WILL NOT exercise unless it is at a women's only workout place. right or wrong, curves and places like it has made a lot lot lot of people who never moved around get out and exercise their bodies.

so even if it is sexist (which i disagree), can you just imagine that maybe maybe maybe that the result is positive enough to quit running your mouth about how awful it is?

then you have to allow for racist white men who may find it uncomfortable to golf in front of negroes.

face it, you can't jump around the hyprocrisy.
stop trying.

[kll]

so basically, many of you are saying it's okay for Curves to exclude men because the fat women need to feel comfortable working out....and not be self conscious....




i would imagine that if an overweight, non-threatening man "tried" to become a member at Curves, claiming he is uncomfortable at a meatmarket gym that they may take pity on him and let him join.

[Qdrop]

I'm not arguing to have it both ways. What I am saying is that your argument equating the two was flawed.
and i showed that it is not flawed.

[Qdrop]

*yawns*

(lb)

Hey Q, why don't you PM Yauch with your observations on the injustice of Curves not letting you workout there? Who knows maybe he'll write on song about it.

dude, shut up.

[Qdrop]

then Qtips you should be revolted too about why women and man dont piss and the same public bathroom!

well that is an imporant element in this debate: when does equality impinge on privacy?

obviously people have the right to not have to change in a co-ed locker room.
you can't force same sex's to share a bathroom (at the same time) either.

but how far can you stretch that level of privacy to other areas of social life before it becomes segratist.

you don't want dudes in you locker room looking at you naked....fine.

but now you don't want dudes joining your gym so you don't feel self conscious when you do your butt-presses.

is there a slippery slope forming?
perhaps...perhaps not.

[ms.peachy]

and i showed that it is not flawed.
No, you didn't. You showed that something you believe to be true differs from what I believe to be true. It's a subjective argument. Just because I don't agree with what you are saying doesn't mean I don't understand it.

[THRILLHO]

*yawns*

(lb)

Hey Q, why don't you PM Yauch with your observations on the injustice of Curves not letting you workout there? Who knows maybe he'll write on song about it.

Hey Ladies! Do my lunges offend you?

[mickill]

then Qtips you should be revolted too about why women and man dont piss and the same public bathroom!
This is actually a very valid point. And it's a lot more pertinent to this discussion than drawing comparisons to racial segregation/discrimination.

Does anybody still seriously say "negroes"? Why don't you just say "colored folk", Q?

[Freebasser]

I ain't sharin' a turlet with no coloureds.

[THRILLHO]

Hey Ladies! Do my lunges offend you?
I'm lifting up weights but I won't upend you!

[Qdrop]

This is actually a very valid point. And it's a lot more pertinent to this discussion than drawing comparisons to racial segregation/discrimination. i already addressed this above...get with the program, mike.

and yes, the comparison to racial segragation is valid. the principles are too similar to be disregarded.

it's not like i'm comparing them to Hitler...

Does anybody still seriously say "negroes"? Why don't you just say "colored folk", Q? of course no one does....
it's an outdated term...that i was using to show how outdated the idea of segragation (even in a ladies gym) fuckin is.

[Qdrop]

and before anyone jumps on the "well, it's a private gym...privately owned...so they can do what they want..."

no no...
private or not....a business can not turn down business on the basis of sex, race, religion, etc...

(and i know some of you will comb you brains looking for SOME instance where that must be done...knock youself out. "Hey, Qdrop...so a guy can sue an abortion clinic for not letting him get an abortion!? is that what you're saying Qdrop! huh!?...idiot!)

private business stature does not allow for a disregard in civil rights, etc.

if fat ladies don't want dudes lookin at them....buy a BowFlex and stay at home....or get over yourself.
Don't fuckin create a "no boys allowed" club to keep out those cutie-infested boys.

grow the fuck up....
so some dudes will see your celulite jiggle.
be a fuckin adult and deal with it!
don't circumvent civil rights laws to hide from your insecurities.

[kll]

and before anyone jumps on the "well, it's a private gym...privately owned...so they can do what they want..."

no no...
private or not....a business can not turn down business on the basis of sex, race, religion, etc...

(and i know some of you will comb you brains looking for SOME instance where that must be done...knock youself out. "Hey, Qdrop...so a guy can sue an abortion clinic for not letting him get an abortion!? is that what you're saying Qdrop! huh!?...idiot!)

private business stature does not allow for a disregard in civil rights, etc.

if fat ladies don't want dudes lookin at them....buy a BowFlex and stay at home....or get over yourself.
Don't fuckin create a "no boys allowed" club to keep out those cutie-infested boys.

grow the fuck up....
so some dudes will see your celulite jiggle.
be a fuckin adult and deal with it!
don't circumvent civil rights laws to hide from your insecurities.

maybe i missed the post in this thread that mentions an article where a man tried to join the gym, but was refused...

HAS a male tried to join a Curves?

[fucktopgirl]

well that is an imporant element in this debate: when does equality impinge on privacy?

obviously people have the right to not have to change in a co-ed locker room.
you can't force same sex's to share a bathroom (at the same time) either.

but how far can you stretch that level of privacy to other areas of social life before it becomes segratist.

you don't want dudes in you locker room looking at you naked....fine.

but now you don't want dudes joining your gym so you don't feel self conscious when you do your butt-presses.

is there a slippery slope forming?
perhaps...perhaps not.

Well,personally,i dont find that curve gym are a big deal.Separate toilet to pee and now gym for only one sex,is like the natural evolution of this narrow-minded practice. This is a bunch of fat women who wanted male out to be in total vaginas privacy,,maybe this was conceive by feminism!FOr real,,who cares!

Do you really feel hurted by this ?I mean for real,if you really want to join the Curve ,become a transvestite!


Is it as segratist as the racism segragation?I think not,that is really below that issue!Nobody died!
Is not worst then all the lodge and sorority,fraternity!Distinct groups will always form to the emotional detriment of others!

[Qdrop]

maybe i missed the post in this thread that mentions an article where a man tried to join the gym, but was refused...

HAS a male tried to join a Curves?

yeah, it's an actual lawsuit....and the guy won.

they were talking about it on a morning radio talkshow on my way to work (Rover's Morning Glory)....

[THRILLHO]

HAS a male tried to join a Curves?

Men can buy tampons. Equal enough for me. :confused:

Since when does membership denote value?

[Qdrop]

Fucktop brought up Fraternities and Sorrorities...

that's a good point....

when is segragation of any kind (clubs, etc) okay..and when is it not?
is separate by equal acceptable in some cases?

there was a black only fraternity on my college campus....but you can't have a white only one.

hyprocrisy?

now, as peachy pointed out...some people view equality as "just make it better for the minority" and to hell with the majority....
which is a sham....
that is simply engaging in the same practice that held you down...rather than rising above it.

[Qdrop]

Men can buy tampons. Equal enough for me. :confused:

Since when does membership denote value?

Ask the black men who have been turned away from Country Clubs based on the color of their skin.
they'll tell you....

[ms.peachy]

So let's say I am a strict Muslim woman, and I want to join a gym. Is it OK that I am discrimated against on the basis of my religion then, because we're not to allow female-only gyms or gym times? Does Q-drop's 'right' to go to the fat-lady gym trump my right to observe my religious custom?

[THRILLHO]

Ask the black men who have been turned away from Country Clubs based on the color of their skin.
they'll tell you....

Any dude upset about not being able to kick it with a bunch of cocksuckers like countryclubbers, regardless of colour, should probably have been an abortion.

Do you want to join a country club?

[kll]

To me, this seems like nothing short of sueing just to sue. Is that spelled right? It looks weird.


If someone was lame enough, they could sue over not being allowed to shower/change in the room of the opposite sex.

Why any guy would be interested in joining a Curves is beyond me, let alone actually sueing over it. How pointless...

[iceygirl]

i think its time for qdrop to think about getting a job that actually involves some work so he has better things to do than getting worked up about stupid issues that he cant do anything about but argue with imaginary people on an internet message board.

[THRILLHO]

To me, this seems like nothing short of sueing just to sue. Is that spelled right? It looks weird.


If someone was lame enough, they could sue over not being allowed to shower/change in the room of the opposite sex.

Why any guy would be interested in joining a Curves is beyond me, let alone actually sueing over it. How pointless...

Then again, vegans are allowed into Sizzler.

[fucktopgirl]

Ask the black men who have been turned away from Country Clubs based on the color of their skin.
they'll tell you....




segragation of sex, kinda pass ,i mean whatever but colors,religion,,this is another level!This is racism and is innaceptable but is a reality and that goes a long way back in history!

This conflict is there and will surely never fade away!

[Qdrop]

So let's say I am a strict Muslim woman, and I want to join a gym. Is it OK that I am discrimated against on the basis of my religion then, because we're not to allow female-only gyms or gym times? Does Q-drop's 'right' to go to the fat-lady gym trump my right to observe my religious custom?

that makes no sense.

you shouldn't discriminate on sex or religion.

[Qdrop]

i think its time for qdrop to think about getting a job that actually involves some work so he has better things to do than getting worked up about stupid issues that he cant do anything about but argue with imaginary people on an internet message board.

lick a dick, hater.

[Qdrop]

If someone was lame enough, they could sue over not being allowed to shower/change in the room of the opposite sex. that was already mentioned.
that would impinge on right to privacy.

Why any guy would be interested in joining a Curves is beyond me, let alone actually sueing over it. How pointless... maybe because they get good results.
and maybe, because it's a gym that tends to cater to fat people who are self-conscious, he felt that would be a good place for his fat ass to go work out and not feel out of place.
i dunno.

[DandyFop]

a

if fat ladies don't want dudes lookin at them....buy a BowFlex and stay at home....or get over yourself.
Don't fuckin create a "no boys allowed" club to keep out those cutie-infested boys.


I think this is very against the point...in general I would rather work out with women just because the creepy "gym agression" that I see in men isn't there as much. I'm a little overweight but I'm not ashamed to go work out in front of men, I don't give a shit, it's just that I'm sick of seeing them walk around like they are God's gift. Also, if they are waiting to use the machine you are on, they stand there impatiently, even if you aren't taking more time than you should, and I've never had a woman do that. For a lot of women I don't think it's being around the men because of how they feel about their bodies, but just the overall gym mentality that males bring to the area, gives it a more stressful feeling.

[jabumbo]

Fucktop brought up Fraternities and Sorrorities...

that's a good point....

when is segragation of any kind (clubs, etc) okay..and when is it not?
is separate by equal acceptable in some cases?

there was a black only fraternity on my college campus....but you can't have a white only one.

hyprocrisy?

i brought this up in the beginning of the thread and nobody said anything about it


the odd thing about it all is that its not evident everywhere. like, the groups i mentioned in my original post are the way they are. but i have a white friend who is the secretary for the black action society. now, you may say "well thats a group to help black people, not for them" but it was restricted before.

there's also the humorous instance a few years back when then campus womens organization president was a male.

[marsdaddy]

that was already mentioned.
that would impinge on right to privacy.

maybe because they get good results.
and maybe, because it's a gym that tends to cater to fat people who are self-conscious, he felt that would be a good place for his fat ass to go work out and not feel out of place.
i dunno.Once again, Q seems to be making decisions about which rights take priorities over others.

Kerri, this is why people sue. Because over-caffeinated, self-righteous people make random, baseless decisions like this all the time, without considering the ramifications.

BTW, people are not discriminated against, just because a business caters to a particular group. If the business excludes other groups of people, that is discrimination.

In the case of Curves, they can cater to women, and still allow men to join. Maybe have separate classes?! The idea that womens' self-consciousness gives them special rights is silly. It's sort of like decency standards on TV -- change the channel! The funny thing is Curves isn't doing so well here -- at least 2 or 3 of the local gyms have opened and closed in the last year.

[kll]

Once again, Q seems to be making decisions about which rights take priorities over others.

Kerri, this is why people sue. Because over-caffeinated, self-righteous people make random, baseless decisions like this all the time, without considering the ramifications.

BTW, people are not discriminated against, just because a business caters to a particular group. If the business excludes other groups of people, that is discrimination.

In the case of Curves, they can cater to women, and still allow men to join. Maybe have separate classes?! The idea that womens' self-consciousness gives them special rights is silly. It's sort of like decency standards on TV -- change the channel! The funny thing is Curves isn't doing so well here -- at least 2 or 3 of the local gyms have opened and closed in the last year.
well said.

[Qdrop]

Once again, Q seems to be making decisions about which rights take priorities over others.
yet you seem to be agreeing with me.


BTW, people are not discriminated against, just because a business caters to a particular group. If the business excludes other groups of people, that is discrimination. no shit.
and Curves was doing just that....not allowing him to join.

In the case of Curves, they can cater to women, and still allow men to join. this gym didn't, hence the lawsuit

The idea that womens' self-consciousness gives them special rights is silly. It's sort of like decency standards on TV -- change the channel! agreed.

[Qdrop]

Or maybe, just maybe, he thought "Even though this doesn't really effect me, I want to agrue about this, waste a lot of time and energy and see if I can't get them to settle over the ridiculous idea that they are being 'sexist' just because they want to help women get into better shape without being subjected to embarrasment or harassment". But that's just a thought.

why are you here?
no one likes you.

[kll]

why are you here?
no one likes you.


have you taken a survey?




i like him just fine. even if he has a mullet.

[marsdaddy]

why are you here?
no one likes you.Have you ever answered that question?

[Qdrop]

Have you ever answered that question?

everyone loves me on here...

i'm the "Teen Bop" to all your inner 13 year olds.

[Qdrop]

have you taken a survey?




i like him just fine. even if he has a mullet.

she's lying.

she PM'd me with a whole list of complaints she has about you....
it was exhausting....

[kll]

she's lying.

she PM'd me with a whole list of complaints she has about you....
it was exhausting....


Did you miss the PM title? It was 10 Reasons Why I Want to Get Rid of You



I guess it's easy to get confused with You and Cmute. They are very similar

[Qdrop]

[Qdrop]

Did you miss the PM title? It was 10 Reasons Why I Want to Get Rid of You



I guess it's easy to get confused with You and Cmute. They are very similar


but #7 said : "and i hate how he spells his name....Cmute. the fuck is that?"

[kll]

but #7 said : "and i hate how he spells his name....Cmute. the fuck is that?"


NO.


#7 said - can't you ever just be mute? i want to strangle you with my hat.

[marsdaddy]

I made my point by posting in the wrong thread...BUSTED!

[Qdrop]

NO.


#7 said - can't you ever just be mute? i want to strangle you with my hat.

REVISIONIST!!


so that weekend in Paris was just "a weekday in Topeka" to you too?!

[Qdrop]

Thanks for pointing that out I never thought of that Qdrop.

are...are you...mocking my name?

[Qdrop]

BUSTED!

eh...why don't cha go invest the in the stock market, and then go lose it all.

[kll]

REVISIONIST!!


so that weekend in Paris was just "a weekday in Topeka" to you too?!

The fact that all you could do was scratch your balls and insist we only eat at McDonalds kind of killed it for me.

[marsdaddy]

eh...why don't cha go invest the in the stock market, and then go lose it all.Okay, Mr. Buffet.

[Qdrop]

The fact that all you could do was scratch your balls and insist we only eat at McDonalds kind of killed it for me.

the magic was there....you just let it slip away.

and who paid for your 2 Big Macs and chocolate milkshake? WHO!?!?!

[Qdrop]

Why no, of course not. I like your name, it reminds me of my own.

please re-read your own sig.

[ms.peachy]

that makes no sense.

you shouldn't discriminate on sex or religion.
It makes perfect sense. Reread it. Forcing a gym designed for women to admit men would then make it impossible for a woman whose religious convictions prohibit her from exercising in a mixed-gender environment from going there. So, then, the man's 'right' is presumed to supercede the woman's right to freely exercise her religious beliefs in practice. It's quite clear, I don't see why you are having such trouble understanding that.

[Qdrop]

It makes perfect sense. Reread it. Forcing a gym designed for women to admit men would then make it impossible for a woman whose religious convictions prohibit her from exercising in a mixed-gender environment from going there. So, then, the man's 'right' is presumed to supercede the woman's right to freely exercise her religious beliefs in practice. It's quite clear, I don't see why you are having such trouble understanding that.

where do get this "muslim women can't exercise in a mixed gender setting" from?
is that in the Koran?

and you are trying to confuse an simple issue with anecdotal stories and scenarios....

[kll]

how do you spell relief?

[ms.peachy]

where do get this "muslim women can't exercise in a mixed gender setting" from?
is that in the Koran?

and you are trying to confuse an simple issue with anecdotal stories and scenarios....
You know, if you don't have an actual answer, pretending like you're all confused and ignorant doesn't make you come off any better.

[Qdrop]

You know, if you don't have an actual answer, pretending like you're all confused and ignorant doesn't make you come off any better.

right back at cha, sweety.

where does it say that in the Koran? where did you get that from?

[Rock]

They could go to a mixed gender gym...but they would have to wear loose clothing. Nothing tight or revealing. Now some muslim women believe that they have to be totally covered, which is just a matter of interpretation, and a whole different subject.
With an all woman gym...they can wear what they choose.

[ms.peachy]

right back at cha, sweety.

where does it say that in the Koran? where did you get that from?
I didn't say it says it in the Koran. I get it from the fact that I live in a community with a very high Muslim population, and have conversations with Muslim women in my library group, my sewing group, and in my place of work, and as a result I know that some of them adhere to a more strict religious code than others, and for some, they simply do not ever engage socially with men outside of their family, because they feel it is not appropriate conduct for a good Muslim woman. It's not like this practice is some sort of secret; it may not be what ALL Muslims do, but it is certainly what some do - just like not all Jews keep a fully kosher kitchen, although certainly many do. The fact that you personally may be ignorant of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I'll just take your refusal to engage with the question as evidence that you have no answer. It's okay, really; go concentrate your energies elsewhere, I didn't really expect a particularly effective response anyway so I'm not too disappointed.

[marsdaddy]

I didn't say it says it in the Koran. I get it from the fact that I live in a community with a very high Muslim population, and have conversations with Muslim women in my library group, my sewing group, and in my place of work, and as a result I know that some of them adhere to a more strict religious code than others, and for some, they simply do not ever engage socially with men outside of their family, because they feel it is not appropriate conduct for a good Muslim woman. It's not like this practice is some sort of secret; it may not be what ALL Muslims do, but it is certainly what some do - just like not all Jews keep a fully kosher kitchen, although certainly many do. The fact that you personally may be ignorant of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I'll just take your refusal to engage with the question as evidence that you have no answer. It's okay, really; go concentrate your energies elsewhere, I didn't really expect a particularly effective response anyway so I'm not too disappointed.So they do not represent the "freedom of religion" contigent, but the "freedom for strict interpretation of religious code." You know you're bolstering Qdrop's point, right?

Go back to a general rule of thumb here regarding personal choices and they can work out, to their hearts content, in private.

[ms.peachy]

So they do not represent the "freedom of religion" contigent, but the "freedom for strict interpretation of religious code." You know you're bolstering Qdrop's point, right?

I don't believe that I am; I don't know that they would regard it as a matter of personal choice, I'm inclined to think that they would view it as a matter of religious freedom.

[Qdrop]

I'll just take your refusal to engage with the question as evidence that you have no answer. It's okay, really; go concentrate your energies elsewhere, I didn't really expect a particularly effective response anyway so I'm not too disappointed.

i'm alot better at the snarky, smug thing than you...that's my bag.


there should be no segaragation of any kind. you should not be able to start a "women's only" or "men's only" ANYTHING when dealing with memberships like clubs, or things that subject one to entry (though i'm sure you will attempt to find some scenario where it's necessary or a grey area just for the sake of arguing).

your question was, if you force a gym to allow men, it could be offending muslim woman's beliefs who believe they can't work out in front of men.
to that i say "tough shit".
american civil rights are set up to protect individuals, including religious beliefs...yes. but not to the extent of impinging on other's rights.
i understand what your scenario (however stretched) is asking: either you force men to work out someplace else, or you force a muslim woman to work out someplace else. someone must be forced out due to their sex or religious belief.
first, the possibility of that scenario does not negate my stance. one can split hairs with scenarios and anecdotes all day....

but if you are asking me to play "judge" in this case...one interpretation could be the issue of sex (no choice) vs. religion (choice). One cannot help thier sex, but one chooses thier religion.
now that does NOT open a loophole to religious persacution down the line...it means that in THIS scenario, between THESE 2 entities, sex would win out vs. religion (just one possible interpretation).
the inevitable likelyhood that civil liberties can get crossed does not mean we throw baby out with the bathwater.

and for those still chiming in with "why do you care...how does this affect you?"

obviously, this case with Curves does not effect me personally....but as we all know, such civil rights cases can have rather profound effects on business and law down the line...even mundane ones such as this.
thus, they are worthy of discussion.

[ms.peachy]

See, now, that's much better, now that you've had a whole day to think about it. :)

[THRILLHO]

Why can I only find two gems for the Elegant Mask?

I suck.

[Qdrop]

See, now, that's much better, now that you've had a whole day to think about it. :)

no, sweet cheecks...you posted that query at the end of the day, when i was going home.
plus, it sounded so contrived and out of left field...

[ms.peachy]

no, sweet cheecks...you posted that query at the end of the day, when i was going home.
plus, it sounded so contrived and out of left field...
Shut up and take the compliment, dillweed. You finally produced a reasonable response, you should be happy about that.

[Qdrop]

Shut up and take the compliment, dillweed. You finally produced a reasonable response, you should be happy about that.

sister, ALL I DO is produce reasonable responses.

that's like...my thing.....

and stuff.

[ms.peachy]

sister, ALL I DO is produce reasonable responses.

that's like...my thing.....

and stuff.
Oh yes of course; that's what we all admire about you. How we can always count on your reasonableness and inflappability. You're kinda famous for it round here.

[Qdrop]

Oh yes of course; that's what we all admire about you. How we can always count on your reasonableness and inflappability. You're kinda famous for it round here.

*polishes fingernails on shirt and glances away, looking bored*

[jabumbo]

i think the real problem with this issue is that while it is more or less accepted to have such private businesses such as an all womens gym, or groups of a similar nature, it does not swing both ways.

i highly doubt a male only gym would opperate without harrassment by womens rights organizations, or an all white male organization would be allowed to function.


its just a double standard that is created, and most people choose to ignore it because it does not play much of an effect on the average person's life

[marsdaddy]

i think the real problem with this issue is that while it is more or less accepted to have such private businesses such as an all womens gym, or groups of a similar nature, it does not swing both ways.

i highly doubt a male only gym would opperate without harrassment by womens rights organizations, or an all white male organization would be allowed to function.


its just a double standard that is created, and most people choose to ignore it because it does not play much of an effect on the average person's lifeYou're missing the point. While Curves went on it's merry way with little or no regard for civil rights, ultimately, exclusion of men is not allowed. The same would be true for a male only gym.

Now if you're talking about the media, that is a different discussion.

But what you're really talking about is you resent not belonging to a special group. I bet you parents didn't hug you much, either...

[Qdrop]

i think the real problem with this issue is that while it is more or less accepted to have such private businesses such as an all womens gym, or groups of a similar nature, it does not swing both ways.

i highly doubt a male only gym would opperate without harrassment by womens rights organizations, or an all white male organization would be allowed to function.


its just a double standard that is created, and most people choose to ignore it because it does not play much of an effect on the average person's life

you are correct.

people DO tend to look the other way if a percieved minority creates a "minority only" organization of some kind....because the percieved minority has "gone through so much, how dare we question...."

the united negro college fund and black fraternaties for example.

you can't have "white versions" of that....not officially.

the percieved minority can have any segragated club or organization they want...but the percieved majority can't even think about it.

yet no one will address it, for fear of being labeled a bigot.

sensitivety over truth once again.

[Nuzzolese]

But truth and equality are only important enough to enforce when the ruling majority decide it should be so. Power over truth in the past.

[marsdaddy]

you can't have "white versions" of that....not officially.You're correct, too!

People -- the general populace that is so influential -- wouldn't stand for whites-only groups of politicians -- particularly presidents, doctors, lawyers, judges, CEO's, or other societal elites. And forget about a whites-only group of the top income earners in our society.

When does the diverse middle-class rise up and seize power? *checks copy of Communist Manifesto*

[Qdrop]

You're correct, too!

People -- the general populace that is so influential -- wouldn't stand for whites-only groups of politicians -- particularly presidents, doctors, lawyers, judges, CEO's, or other societal elites. And forget about a whites-only group of the top income earners in our society.


while the lack of non-whites in the entities you listed is apparent....it's not through an official mandate of any kind.
there are complex social issues that created those patterns....racism being only part of it NOW....


most politicians being white is not tantamount to the United Negro College Fund.
try again, cracker.

[mickill]

I'd love to live in the fantasy world that Qdrop lives in. I bet he rides a white unicorn to work and has friends named Frodo and Bilbo, too.

[Nuzzolese]

while the lack of non-whites in the entities you listed is apparent....it's not through an official mandate of any kind.
there are complex social issues that created those patterns....racism being only part of it NOW....


I don't know how all these white people got here! I guess Black people just don't like those jobs! Complex social issues. I've got complex social issues with you being an ignorant asshole. But I don't really want to argue about that.

I hate the "if you don't like it you can leave" mentality. It's like inviting someone to dinner and then telling them that if they don't believe in eating what you're serving, you tell them they don't have to eat it. They're invited to sit at your table but that's as far as your welcome will extend. To me that seems to illustrate the ideas behind unofficial exclusion of parts of the population. You don't have to make everyone happy and cater to everyone's needs, but how can you expect people to want to stay at your table? It sends the message that you'd rather they leave.

[Qdrop]

I don't know how all these white people got here! I guess Black people just don't like those jobs! Complex social issues. I've got complex social issues with you being an ignorant asshole. you can be such an idiot for such a smart lass.
jesus.

of course racism is at the initial root of many of those disparities....
but are you telling me the ONLY thing keeping John B. Blackperson from obtaining public office is racism? white people won't let him?
it has nothing to do with the poverty he dwells in, the lack of good role models in his area, the rampant crime and drug use, the shitty education he recieved from underfunded schools.

yes THOSE things have historical roots in racism...but those elements are now thier own entities.

this is why i said "complex social issues"...
you pompous bitch.

and those blacks that HAVE achieved political office, wealth, heads of company...were they just lucky? did whitey just LET him have it?

But I don't really want to argue about that.

because you can't.

[Nuzzolese]

I guess you're right, it would be stupid of me to try to argue with THAT.

[Qdrop]

I'd love to live in the fantasy world that Qdrop lives in. I bet he rides a white unicorn to work and has friends named Frodo and Bilbo, too.

contribute or shut the fuck up.

don't attack me....talk about the topic.

[jabumbo]

I hate the "if you don't like it you can leave" mentality. It's like inviting someone to dinner and then telling them that if they don't believe in eating what you're serving, you tell them they don't have to eat it. They're invited to sit at your table but that's as far as your welcome will extend. To me that seems to illustrate the ideas behind unofficial exclusion of parts of the population. You don't have to make everyone happy and cater to everyone's needs, but how can you expect people to want to stay at your table? It sends the message that you'd rather they leave.


so wait, are you saying that if i invite someone over for dinner, and they don't like my soup, i should make them a sandwich?

sure, it might be easy to compensate on a small scale, but lets make this a dinner party and 10 friends are here to eat my lasagna. just because one person doesn't like the taste doesn't mean i should have to make him something different.

[Nuzzolese]

That is true, you don't have to make exceptions for a small minority when everyone else is doing fine. They don't have to eat anything at all.

[DandyFop]

What if their biological makeup states they can't eat anything but sandwiches...

[Nuzzolese]

What if their biological makeup states they can't eat anything but sandwiches...

This is a dinner party for lasagna, okay? They can bring their own sandwiches I guess.

[jabumbo]

ok, so lets make this a real world example. lets talk about say, college applications/acceptances.

the person at my party who hates my lasagna can be comparable to the 1 latino kid who applied to said university. i play the role of dean of admissions, and everyone else is a white male/female.

the latino kid not liking my lasagna is like him sending me a bad application.

using this comparative logic, you are telling me that i should accept the latino kid just because he is latino, and forget the fact that his application was sub par, and not as good as the others.

yes?

[Qdrop]

This is a dinner party for lasagna, okay? They can bring their own sandwiches I guess.

good point.

[ms.peachy]

ok, so lets make this a real world example. lets talk about say, college applications/acceptances.

the person at my party who hates my lasagna can be comparable to the 1 latino kid who applied to said university. i play the role of dean of admissions, and everyone else is a white male/female.

the latino kid not liking my lasagna is like him sending me a bad application.

using this comparative logic, you are telling me that i should accept the latino kid just because he is latino, and forget the fact that his application was sub par, and not as good as the others.

yes?

How exactly is his application being 'bad' anything like someone not liking lasagna? Why does his application have to be 'sub par' to make the real world example? It only has to be the essentially same as everyone else's to be a comparison, becasue you only need one variable in this equation - in this case, the variable is his ethnicity, not the quality of his application.

[jabumbo]

How exactly is his application being 'bad' anything like someone not liking lasagna? Why does his application have to be 'sub par' to make the real world example? It only has to be the essentially same as everyone else's to be a comparison, becasue you only need one variable in this equation - in this case, the variable is his ethnicity, not the quality of his application.


any way you look at it, i am still being told that i should accept this student because of his ethnicity, and not because he is a stellar student.

[ms.peachy]

any way you look at it, i am still being told that i should accept this student because of his ethnicity, and not because he is a stellar student.
But what if he is just as acceptable a candidate as the others? That was the flaw in your analogy, is what I am saying. You wanted to give him a 2-point variable, where only one was required.

[jabumbo]

But what if he is just as acceptable a candidate as the others? That was the flaw in your analogy, is what I am saying. You wanted to give him a 2-point variable, where only one was required.

if he is as good of a student as the others, then there are no issues, then he actually enjoys my lasagna.


here is what i don't understand: i know people who were accepted to my university just because of things such as race, gender, and ethnicity (it seems like half the advisors only care about getting more women in engineering and not about helping those who want to do it). the fact is, many (not all) don't stick with it, and end up somewhere else. so why do they have to do this while hindering someone elses chances of success?

[mickill]

contribute or shut the fuck up.

don't attack me....talk about the topic.
Nah.

[Nuzzolese]

Jabumbo that's not what I meant with my dinner party analogy.

[marsdaddy]

In Qdrop's world when did racism stop?

At this dinner party, wouldn't you and your friends like to hear this latino kid say "amigo" and "gringo"?

[mickill]

I assume that in Qdrop's world ALL black (or non-white) people are from the hood, too. So when he sees black people commanding positions in political office, achieving wealth or heading a company, he regards it as evidence that ALL black people have the same opportunities as anyone else.

it has nothing to do with the poverty he dwells in, the lack of good role models in his area, the rampant crime and drug use, the shitty education he recieved from underfunded schools.

Just give it up already.

[jabumbo]

Jabumbo that's not what I meant with my dinner party analogy.


well i am assuming it was until shown otherwise



this whole thread is just more questions and extreme situations. every question i have posed has either been ignored or returned with another question. nothing i have asked has been rightfully answered because nobody has the answer, and tries to run around that fact.

[Qdrop]

In Qdrop's world when did racism stop?


never said that, jack ass.

[Qdrop]

I assume that in Qdrop's world ALL black (or non-white) people are from the hood, too. So when he sees black people commanding positions in political office, achieving wealth or heading a company, he regards it as evidence that ALL black people have the same opportunities as anyone else. no ass. my point was exactly the opposite of that.
my point was that "the poverty he dwells in, the lack of good role models in his area, the rampant crime and drug use, the shitty education he recieved from underfunded schools" plays a bigger role than the direct racism. NOT all blacks have the same oppurtunity, due to THOSE reasons.
jesus, you can be thick.

you and mars are fuckin falling over each other trying to "expose me" as an ignorant idiot...meanwhile failing to read my posts correctly (cause you're just glossing over them while you are mentally thrashing me)...and proving your own ignorance. you have it completely backward.
brilliant, mike.
stick to flirting with chicks.

[mickill]

no ass. my point was exactly the opposite of that.
my point was that "the poverty he dwells in, the lack of good role models in his area, the rampant crime and drug use, the shitty education he recieved from underfunded schools" plays a bigger role than the direct racism. NOT all blacks have the same oppurtunity, due to THOSE reasons.
jesus, you can be thick.

you and mars are fuckin falling over each other trying to "expose me" as an ignorant idiot...meanwhile failing to read my posts correctly (cause you're just glossing over them while you are mentally thrashing me)...and proving your own ignorance. you have it completely backward.
brilliant, mike.
stick to flirting with chicks.


My bad, Bradd. Maybe if you learned to punctuate your sentences properly and weren't so randomly condescending in your responses to people I'd have an easier time understanding what the hell you're trying to say.

Also, one minute you're starting threads about how people are "on my jock", the next I'm the one doing the flirting. Whatever you say. I'd tell you to stick to what I think you do best, too, but you're already policing the boards, obsessing over the way other members interact with eachother and making a constant ass out of yourself.

[Qdrop]

My bad, Bradd. Maybe if you learned to punctuate your sentences properly and weren't so randomly condescending in your responses to people I'd have an easier time understanding what the hell you're trying to say. again, dude, you just read it wrong cause you glossed over it, while trying to point out my non-existant racial ignorance.
nothing to do with my punctuation.
be a man and admit it.

you did the same fuckin thing last time this topic came up...along with Afro.
falling over each other trying to pull the "i'm more racially enlightened then anyone...and Qdrop is a bigot" routine once again.

Also, one minute you're starting threads about how people are "on my jock", the next I'm the one doing the flirting. people are on your jock AND you flirt with alot of chicks on here.
you act as if it's one or the other....

that's back to back posts where your logic center is shitting the bed.
take a break.

[mickill]

people are on your jock AND you flirt with alot of chicks on here.
you act as if it's one or the other....

that's back to back posts where your logic center is shitting the bed.
take a break.

No see, You DO know what I'm saying, you're just avoiding it now. If you and I reply to eachother more than twice in a row, people use it as an opportunity to crack gay jokes. Unless you actually think that you and I are flirting right now, you're full of shit, because it's no different than what you're more than likely referring to when I back and forth reply to cosmo or anyone other than yourself. God forbid they should have a vagina. Quit being sexist in your own social equality thread.

[Qdrop]

No see, You DO know what I'm saying, you're just avoiding it now. If you and I reply to eachother more than twice in a row, people use it as an opportunity to crack gay jokes. Unless you actually think that you and I are flirting right now, you're full of shit, because it's no different than what you're more than likely referring to when I back and forth reply to cosmo or anyone other than yourself. God forbid they should have a vagina. Quit being sexist in your own social equality thread.

and you comment on MY punctuation and coherant writing.

okay..so...hold on...
are you hitting on me?

[Qdrop]

Why don't you guys get a room? This isn't BMMB(Brokeback Mountain Message Board)!

hey, Last Week called.....
it said to stop using his jokes...

[Nuzzolese]

Quit being sexist in your own social equality thread.

Q's character is called into question! And that is an important issue. If anything overrides race and gender it's character

[jabumbo]

No see, You DO know what I'm saying, you're just avoiding it now.

[mickill]

Why don't you guys get a room? This isn't BMMB(Brokeback Mountain Message Board)!
Quiet you, I'm waiting for someone to reinforce my point.

[mickill]

and you comment on MY punctuation and coherant writing.

okay..so...hold on...
are you hitting on me?

I bet you were usually the first one to get hit in dodgeball during gym class, weren't you?

[Qdrop]

I bet you were usually the first one to get hit in dodgeball during gym class, weren't you?

i ALWAYS won at dodge ball, mike.

always.

you may have seen the quirky Vince Vaugn movie "DodgeBall"...



but i lived it.

[ms.peachy]

You DO know what I'm saying, you're just avoiding it now.
Hey! That's the same tactic he tried to use on me!

Give him a little time; maybe he'll come back tomorrow with a better answer for you too.

[Qdrop]

Hey! That's the same tactic he tried to use on me!

Give him a little time; maybe he'll come back tomorrow with a better answer for you too.

you truly are the older sister i NEVER wanted....

[jabumbo]

Hey! That's the same tactic he tried to use on me!

Give him a little time; maybe he'll come back tomorrow with a better answer for you too.


he'll have a proper answer before i get anything worth reading

[marsdaddy]

jabumbo, your point about white males not being able to organize a sanctioned group are so well-thought out and really beyond anything the rest of us can comprehend. Though I've directly addressed you multiple times, really there is no answer. You're right...the rest of us are wrong.

happy now?

[ms.peachy]

you truly are the older sister i NEVER wanted....
Shut up or I'll invite all my girlfriends over for a sleepover and we'll whisper and giggle and put make-up on you.

[jabumbo]

jabumbo, your point about white males not being able to organize a sanctioned group are so well-thought out and really beyond anything the rest of us can comprehend. Though I've directly addressed you multiple times, really there is no answer. You're right...the rest of us are wrong.

happy now?


all i did was ask some questions and i got nothing but smartass remarks that provide no substance. maybe if you pulled your head out of your ass you could provide one or two responses without all the bullshit

[Nuzzolese]

Quit whining! Just be happy that you're a white man.

[DandyFop]

^ Smartest thing said in this entire thread.

[Nuzzolese]

^ Hyperbole

[marsdaddy]

all i did was ask some questions and i got nothing but smartass remarks that provide no substance. maybe if you pulled your head out of your ass you could provide one or two responses without all the bullshit
You're already part of that club. The non-white and females who have the rest of your attributes are probably not in college.
You're missing the point. While Curves went on it's merry way with little or no regard for civil rights, ultimately, exclusion of men is not allowed. The same would be true for a male only gym.

Now if you're talking about the media, that is a different discussion.

But what you're really talking about is you resent not belonging to a special group. I bet you parents didn't hug you much, either...
At this dinner party, wouldn't you and your friends like to hear this latino kid say "amigo" and "gringo"?
It didn't start off that way. I think maybe you didn't hear what you wanted to?

Sorry, my head was lodged up my ass years ago.