White Death/Black Death

[yeahwho]

A revealing story on the Death Penaty from the San Francisco Gate by Jasmyne A. Cannick (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/08/INGODGHE4H1.DTL).


For a white man's execution, where are black protesters?
Outcry on behalf of Tookie might be viewed as race-based

With just a few days to go before the scheduled execution of a 76-year-old blind and deaf man who uses a wheelchair, there has been no public outcry of support for clemency for Clarence Ray Allen, who is white. There have been no planned protests and celebrity read-ins in support of saving an old man's life. Community activists and civil rights leaders aren't organizing statewide tours to bring attention to Allen's execution. There hasn't even been one "Kill Clarence Ray Allen Hour" from KFI-AM's "John and Ken Show."

[Rob Dogg]

Sad story. I hate it when people take advantage of being an ethnic minority, but if I complain about it I get labelled a racist. Why is he facing the death penalty though? It didn't say in the article.

[valvano]

rob dogg,
don't you get it? when protesting the death penalty, you aren't supposed to talk about the crimes that put the person on the death row, you're just supposed to protest the death penalty

who cares about the victims, just protest the death penalty and make the criminal look like a saint...

:rolleyes:

[yeahwho]

Here is a wikipedia profile of Clarence Ray Allen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Ray_Allen), he is a hoodlum convicted of crimes that are similiar to Tookies. To me it's a media double standard, popular culture dictates who gets media coverage on the death penalty. Media bias is pervasive within it's own "Objective" viewpoint of one mans death vs. another mans death.

Why would anyone care about either one of these fellows? I know why "Tookie" was important...but the people who supported "Tookies" cause also supported the "No Death Penalty" cause. (or was that just for "Tookie"?)

I think this may be a case less about race than it is more than a case about celebrity. But perhaps I'm wrong....maybe "Tookie" was reformed, or maybe it's just not as horrifying to kill a disabled man.

The death penalty is the most extreme story in the US justice system. I'm obsessed and have more questions than answers.

[kaiser soze]

if prisons weren't packed to the brim with nonviolent, victimless criminals we wouldn't "need" to execute anyone

the death penalty doesn't solve shit...it doesn't keep people from murder/high crimes and it doesn't save money, it doesn't make a positive impact on any culture, person, or law

it is a gross perversion of justice and just as barbaric as murder

[STANKY808]

Sad story. I hate it when people take advantage of being an ethnic minority, but if I complain about it I get labelled a racist. Why is he facing the death penalty though? It didn't say in the article.


Cause those minorities got it made? I mean, they have so many advantages.

The media in this particular instance seems to have no time for this dude. I would guess that they have simply moved on as they often do. I recall big protests years ago regarding Karla Faye Tucker (whom is white as I recall) in Texas. She claimed to have found god but w still pulled the lever. The press covered that like crazy while other inmates of colour were being offed.

And while I agree that one execution is wrong, in the context of a discussion of race and the death penalty I think it should be acknowledged that it's application has been shown to be racist.

[yeahwho]

It's been a little over twelve hours since I've posted this and I just went back to Google news, typed up Clarence Ray Allen and got 127 hits on the news button. Twelve hours ago it was 4 hits. So with the advent of Blogs and various news outlets, I think it may become a bit larger than anticipated. We'll see.

Here is Judge Wardlaw's conclusions and opinion on giving the death penalty to Clarence Ray Allen,

Evidence of Allen's guilt is overwhelming. Given the nature of his crimes, sentencing him to another life term would achieve none of the traditional purposes underlying punishment. Allen continues to pose a threat to society, indeed to those very persons who testified against him in the Fran's Market triple-murder trial here at issue, and has proven that he is beyond rehabilitation. He has shown himself more than capable of arranging murders from behind bars. Evidence of Allen's guilt is overwhelming. Given the nature of his crimes, sentencing him to another life term would achieve none of the traditional purposes underlying punishment. Allen continues to pose a threat to society, indeed to those very persons who testified against him in the Fran's Market triple-murder trial here at issue, and has proven that he is beyond rehabilitation. He has shown himself more than capable of arranging murders from behind bars. If the death penalty is to serve any purpose at all, it is to prevent the very sort of murderous conduct for which Allen was convicted. , it is to prevent the very sort of murderous conduct for which Allen was convicted.

"If the death penalty is to serve any purpose at all" this is an odd choice of words for someone who is making decisions based on an assumption of the purpose of the whole premise in the first place.

[Ace42X]

who cares about the victims,

What do the victims have to do with it? Executing someone doesn't bring them back to life. It's not like killing the perpetrator is going to make them feel any better about being dead...

You really need to think about what you post.

[valvano]

What do the victims have to do with it? Executing someone doesn't bring them back to life. It's not like killing the perpetrator is going to make them feel any better about being dead...

You really need to think about what you post.

based on your logic, we shouldn't jail theives because chances are you won't get your property back anyway.... :rolleyes:



thanks for proving my point, those who oppose capital punishment care more about the guilty than they do their victims
:p

[kaiser soze]

based on your logic, we shouldn't jail theives because chances are you won't get your property back anyway.... :rolleyes:



thanks for proving my point, those who oppose capital punishment care more about the guilty than they do their victims
:p

great analogy and a greater hyperbole

why are pro-lifers pro-war again?

[Ace42X]

based on your logic, we shouldn't jail theives because chances are you won't get your property back anyway...

Only someone as profoundly stupid as you could take that from what I said. It's funny that you use the word "logic" in an attempt to justify what is a logical fallacy.

Jail and execution are two very different things, as is thievery and murder. As far as I know, even your barbaric nation doesn't execute thieves. There is no logic in you trying to conflate them, and to do so is erroneous. For starters, Jail could theoretically help to reform a criminal. Execution prevents any possibility of reformation. Also, if a criminal is too dangerous to society to be freed, they can be kept incarcerated as a preventative measure. This is theoretically as effective as execution, and doesn't involve violating the law of god and the law of man, and makes it a lot easier to apologise if the person turns out to be innocent afterall, as is often the case.

Now, if you want to talk sensibly about crime and punishment, then we could start by talking about what you think the purpose of punitive legislation is, how best to achieve those goals, and whether the ideology behind it should be readdressed.

Of course, as you clearly haven't thought about a single one of these things, let alone done any research into it, this would be a rather fruitless exercise.

thanks for proving my point, those who oppose capital punishment care more about the guilty than they do their victims

The only things that has been proven here is your incapability of forming a rational argument, lack of objectivity, weak grasp of the principles of logic, and gross hypocrisy.

Imagine one of the people who has been executed is innocent (and a lot of them are, might I add.) - now, as they have been murdered, who is the victim?

This person you wouldn't hesitate to mistakenly label "guilty" is the victim. This person you don't care about in the slightest, and want to see fry.

And now more evidence arises - the missing gun is found in someone else's hand after the REAL perpetrator repeated his crimes. What have you got? One more "victim" and a whole new murderer. The executioner, the governer who signed the death warrant.

What about THEIR guilt?

What about your army? Do their victims not count? Do you care about them?

Every US soldier with a confirmed kill going to get the chair?

Oh, so as much as you care about the VICTIMS, the VICTIMS don't matter in certain circumstances, even though you CARE so much about them...

Or let me guess the VICTIMS of the US soldiers, who have probably died in a lot more pain than the victim of a drugstore shooting, must all be guilty (even though they haven't actually killed anyone yet...) and thus it doesn't count?

So if Valvano were killed, before every US execution, there'd be an inquirey into whether the victim was guilty of something?

"The old man behind the counter had a gun, so it was either him or me." - Oh, that's ok then, the "victim" was going to shoot you, no execution today!

The fact of the matter is that your position has more holes in it than a rusty colander. Probably because you base your argument on who you choose to care about rather than actual facts.

Fortunately, I support you in this. Let's have a justice system built around how people feel. I myself hate your guts and think you deserve to die for your ignorance. Guess you get the chair.

[Ace42X]

those who oppose capital punishment care more about the guilty than they do their victims


And as your country, replete with capital punishment, has one of the worst incidences of violent crime in the world - surely it makes more sense to say "those who oppose capital punishment care more about reducing crime than electrocuting people" ?

'Cause as much as you "care" about the victims, your pro-execution stance could be seen to be making more of them. Ditto with your crazy gun laws.

[Medellia]

who cares about the victims
This reminds of something that happened to a friend of mine in high school. In one of her classes they were debating the death penalty. She's against it. Always has been. Well everyone else in the class was harassing her because she thought killing a murderer served no purpose. Another girl in the class then said "you'd change your mind if someone murdered your mother." The crazy thing is, five years before that debate, somebody had murdered her mother. But, yeah, she doesn't care about the victims or anything.

THANX FOR PLAYIN.

[guerillaGardner]

I also have seen a family member murdered but doesn't believe in the death penalty.

As much as it fucked my family up I can't for the life of me feel any satisfaction in seeing innocent people killed as collateral damage in order to give me and my family some sense of justice.

I suspect that many who support the death penalty do so out of a love of violence and aggression. They like to see people being killed but feel they must attach some moral excuse to it in order to remain socially acceptable because when you don't care about miscarriage of justice or who gets hurt in the process you sure as hell don't care about the victims. Chances are you hate them too and would probably quite happily find some reason to kill them too if they weren't already dead.

[SobaViolence]

Western countries to use the death penalty: 1

Worldwide, there's less than 15. I think maybe less than 10.

Somalia, Nigeria and China, etc... Nice company, America.

[valvano]

if this guy is too old to be executed
does that mean his victims were too young to be murdered by him?

:confused:

[Medellia]

if this guy is too old to be executed
does that mean his victims were too young to be murdered by him?

:confused:
What the hell does this have to do with any of the points that have been brought up? Sometimes you really do outdo yourself. Really. A special kind of stupid.

[yeahwho]

If you punch up Clarence Ray Allen (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=clarence+ray+allen) today (1-14-06) you'll get over 1000 hits, so his death is gaining interest in the media, but still nowhere as much as the daily front news stories leading up to Tookies (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=tookie&btnG=Search+News) (a bigger story today, a full month after the event over 5000 hits) execution on December 13, 2005.

The death penalty has it's own ratings system.

[valvano]

What the hell does this have to do with any of the points that have been brought up? Sometimes you really do outdo yourself. Really. A special kind of stupid.


good job avoiding my question,

again, if this slimeball is trying to make the legal case that he is now too old to be executed, then does that mean that his 17 year old victim who died as a result of a hit man hired by him was too young to die??

[Medellia]

good job avoiding my question,
And good job avoiding the comments made by soba, guerilla, and myself. But I'll be nice and play along.
again, if this slimeball is trying to make the legal case that he is now too old to be executed, then does that mean that his 17 year old victim who died as a result of a hit man hired by him was too young to die??
Well wouldn't a 17 year old be "too young to die" no matter what? Or are they only too young to die when it comes to murder? I guess in that case an 83 year old is too young to die, right?

[valvano]

And good job avoiding the comments made by soba, guerilla, and myself. But I'll be nice and play along.

Well wouldn't a 17 year old be "too young to die" no matter what? Or are they only too young to die when it comes to murder? I guess in that case an 83 year old is too young to die, right?

they could have executed him sooner had his lawyers not filed appeal after appeal after appeal......

:eek:

[franscar]

they could have executed him sooner had his lawyers not filed appeal after appeal after appeal......

:eek:

Well, if you get rid of that pesky legal system you could execute all the people you liked, when you liked. (y)

[valvano]

Well, if you get rid of that pesky legal system you could execute all the people you liked, when you liked. (y)

then, don't complain if you think you are too old to be executed if you abuse the legal system with appeal after appeal after appeal and it takes years to finally pass through the system....

you can't have it both ways

his victim surely didn't get the opportunity to appeal her murder to a higher power, her life ended at 17

[Rob Dogg]

rob dogg,
don't you get it? when protesting the death penalty, you aren't supposed to talk about the crimes that put the person on the death row, you're just supposed to protest the death penalty

who cares about the victims, just protest the death penalty and make the criminal look like a saint...

:rolleyes:

Lol ok, we don't have the death penalty over here, we just have overcrowded prisons, hence the confusion.

[franscar]

then, don't complain if you think you are too old to be executed if you abuse the legal system with appeal after appeal after appeal and it takes years to finally pass through the system....

you can't have it both ways

his victim surely didn't get the opportunity to appeal her murder to a higher power, her life ended at 17

I'm not planning on going to any backward ass nation that clings to the death penalty as some sort of bearer of justice just to kill someone.

More likely to buy cheap clothes and cd's.

[yeahwho]

It is Clarence Ray Allen's Last. Day. Alive. They will put him to death at 12:01 AM, a few minutes after his 76th birthday.

Here (http://people.howstuffworks.com/lethal-injection.htm) is how and where they will do it.

He will never reach the notoriety that "Tookie (http://www.zombietime.com/tookie/)" did last month.

[valvano]

it looks like all that was missing from the tookie circus were the elephants and somebody selling cotton candy

[Schmeltz]

Yes, but fortunately you've been able to fill in as the clown.

[ChrisLove]

Western countries to use the death penalty: 1

Worldwide, there's less than 15. I think maybe less than 10.

Somalia, Nigeria and China, etc... Nice company, America.

COuntries that will pass a death sentence on a child; 6 (USA, Congo, Iran Pakistan, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia)

Is this still true?

[valvano]

Yes, but fortunately you've been able to fill in as the clown.


no, the clowns were the people supporting the murderer

just like the clowns who believed in roger coleman, only to find out last weeks his pleas of innocence were all lies

:p

[Schmeltz]

What is so very difficult for you to understand, valvano? Opponents of the death penalty do not support murderers, in spite of your endless parroting to the contrary. The fact that you are unable to distinguish between outright support for criminals and unease about the inhumanity of granting the state power of life and death over its citizenry is proof positive of your superficiality, if not full-on dimwittedness.

Quit the broken record act and try to post something substantial for a change.

[valvano]

What is so very difficult for you to understand, valvano? Opponents of the death penalty do not support murderers, in spite of your endless parroting to the contrary. The fact that you are unable to distinguish between outright support for criminals and unease about the inhumanity of granting the state power of life and death over its citizenry is proof positive of your superficiality, if not full-on dimwittedness.

Quit the broken record act and try to post something substantial for a change.

the lefts coddling of criminals is about the longest played broken record ever.... :rolleyes:

let's see, joe murders somebody, joe gets death penalty, death penalty opponents want him to live

outcome 1 : joe lives, orders another murder from prison (as in this case of the 75 year old man), or murders somebody else in prison, and the victim's families have to live with the fear of knowing that this monster is still alive, thanks to the efforts of a bunch of wacked out liberals, joes gets to continue to live, breath air, while his victim remains 6 feet under, no longer able to enjoy the life they once had

outcome 2 : joe gets fried. no more murders ordered from behind prison walls, no more murders in prison, he receives the same fate that he gave another, the victims family can bring closure..



sounds to me like you are a murderer supporter... :eek:

[franscar]

You forgot outcome 3: joe gets fried and his crew goes out and kills the victims family anyway. And then some more families. And then each other.

And outcome 4: joe sits in jail for the rest of his life playing chess with 'Big Bubba' and reading Dickens.

Hypotheses are fun.

[valvano]

You forgot outcome 3: joe gets fried and his crew goes out and kills the victims family anyway. And then some more families. And then each other.

And outcome 4: joe sits in jail for the rest of his life playing chess with 'Big Bubba' and reading Dickens.

Hypotheses are fun.

too bad the victim never had a chance to learn chess........

[Schmeltz]

Holy fuck. Would going over this again get us anywhere? Or are you so determined in your simplistic idiocy that there really is no point in talking to you?

[synch]

if this guy is too old to be executed
does that mean his victims were too young to be murdered by him?

:confused:
Did you even read what he did?

Clarence Ray Allen (b. January 16, 1930, of Choctaw heritage in Blair, Oklahoma) is a death row inmate at the San Quentin State Prison, California. Allen is slated to be executed on January 17, 2006, for ordering the murders of eight witnesses to an earlier murder, complicity in the successful murder of one of the witnesses as well as the murders of two additional persons. Allen would be second oldest inmate to be executed in the USA (James Stephens of Colorado was executed in 1941 at age 76) and one of the most disabled.I didn't follow the whole Tookie thing closely but from what I understood the outcry was because he had made an effort to better his life and educate kids about being in gangs, trying to stop the violence.

[valvano]

I didn't follow the whole Tookie thing closely but from what I understood the outcry was because he had made an effort to better his life and educate kids about being in gangs, trying to stop the violence.

too bad his 4 victims never got to spend more time with their own children, much less even have children...........

:mad:

he should have tried to better his life before murdering 4 innocent people during his thug days


based on your logic, if those executed following the Nuremburg trials had written childrens books, they too should have been spared the hangman's noose??
:confused:

[franscar]

I'm sure you already know this, but those hanged at Nuremberg were done so to warn others of the fate awaiting those who advocated tyranny and hatred.

Obviously, since then there has been no tyranny nor hatred in the world...

[yeahwho]

Talking shit about killing Tookie and Clarence makes some people feel better. I find that pretty interesting. Would it actually be more gratifying to have a torture penalty for some people?

The perpetuation of violence in society is a booming business in the good 'ol USA.

[Ace42X]

the lefts coddling of criminals

Because the left traditionally coddle the murderers in the US armed forces, right? The left are never critical of the US soldiers who murder people *AS PART OF THEIR JOB*.

[valvano]

I'm sure you already know this, but those hanged at Nuremberg were done so to warn others of the fate awaiting those who advocated tyranny and hatred.

Obviously, since then there has been no tyranny nor hatred in the world...


so creating a gang such as the crips does not equate advocating tyranny and hatred? i haven't read much on the loving, peaceful part of the crips...perhaps you could educate us on this?

:D

[franscar]

so creating a gang such as the crips does not equate advocating tyranny and hatred? i haven't read much on the loving, peaceful part of the crips...perhaps you could educate us on this?

:D

Obviously from this day forth people should write anything dripping in sarcasm in a different colour so that anyone can notice it.

My word you're hard work.

[synch]

too bad his 4 victims never got to spend more time with their own children, much less even have children...........

:mad:

he should have tried to better his life before murdering 4 innocent people during his thug days


based on your logic, if those executed following the Nuremburg trials had written childrens books, they too should have been spared the hangman's noose??
:confused:
Yes, you have captured exactly what I was trying to say and responded eloquently.

I'm looking forward to discussing things with you in the future.

Neither of those statements are true.

[valvano]

Yes, you have captured exactly what I was trying to say and responded eloquently.

I'm looking forward to discussing things with you in the future.

Neither of those statements are true.


dont you have some beastiality videos to watch, isn't that what's amsterdam best known for?

[synch]

Don't you have some cousins to fuck?

[valvano]

Don't you have some cousins to fuck?

i see your parents took full advantage of amsterdam's liberal drug laws......

[synch]

And your ancestors seem to have ignored the hazards of inbreeding.

[valvano]

would that be my european ancestors?

:D

[marsdaddy]

then, don't complain if you think you are too old to be executed if you abuse the legal system with appeal after appeal after appeal and it takes years to finally pass through the system....I don't see how this is abuse of the legal system. Filing appeal after appeal IS the legal system. I'm pretty sure even if he wanted to die, a judge would intervene and force a lawyer to represent him in his appeals.

The death penaly is a game of cat and mouse -- it costs more to execute someone than to imprison them for life. And killing them serves no useful purpose. It's not a deterrent, victims are dead so they ain't coming back, and it just proves that the US of A does not hold the value of human life much higher than the value of cockroaches in a NYC slum.

[valvano]

And killing them serves no useful purpose. It's not a deterrent, victims are dead so they ain't coming back, and it just proves that the US of A does not hold the value of human life much higher than the value of cockroaches in a NYC slum.

1. How many people who were executed came back to kill again?
2. How many people who received a term or life sentence killed again?
3. We place the life of innocent people extremely high. We don't place the life of convicted murderes very highly. They lost that right when the committed murder.

Then you agree, when you do appeal after appeal after appeal, don't use old age as a legal defense to get out of a pending execution?

[Medellia]

outcome 1 : joe lives, orders another murder from prison (as in this case of the 75 year old man), or murders somebody else in prison, and the victim's families have to live with the fear of knowing that this monster is still alive, thanks to the efforts of a bunch of wacked out liberals, joes gets to continue to live, breath air, while his victim remains 6 feet under, no longer able to enjoy the life they once had

outcome 2 : joe gets fried. no more murders ordered from behind prison walls, no more murders in prison, he receives the same fate that he gave another, the victims family can bring closure.
And what about those families who don't agree with the death penalty even though a loved one was murdered?

Also, the executions rarely bring closure. Many people who lost family in the OKC bombing were shocked when they didn't feel any better after Timothy McVeigh was executed. And on top of that, he WANTED to be executed because he knew it would turn him into a martyr. And why should we give murderers what they want?

too bad the victim never had a chance to learn chess........
And just how do you know that? I learned how to play chess when I was three. Not everyone is as dumb as you, ya know.

[synch]

would that be my european ancestors?

:D
Yes, the ones that we kicked out of europe for being a bunch of weirdos.

[Ace42X]

1. How many people who were executed came back to kill again?

Considering that a proportion of them never killed in the first place, that is a pretty fatuous comment.

And if you execute someone who DIDN'T commit the murder, effectively closing the case, that leaves the real murderer free to keep killing.

2. How many people who received a term or life sentence killed again?

Probably less than the number of people who were able to kill again because the police were no longer investigating a murder, due to the case being closed because the "perpetrator" had been executed without sufficient evidence.

3. We place the life of innocent people extremely high.

Bullshit. Your country is incredibly reckless when it comes to the safety of the individuals. If you placed the lives of innocent people so highly, you wouldn't be giving guns out free at banks. And what about the innocent people killed in Iraq due to your current little forray?

We don't place the life of convicted murderes very highly. They lost that right when the committed murder.

Logic error. A person convicted of murder need not have murdered anyone. What you mean is "they lost that right when a group of people DECIDED they lost that right". The same justification you no doubt use to legitimise the death of innocent Iraqis.

Then you agree, when you do appeal after appeal after appeal, don't use old age as a legal defense to get out of a pending execution?

Of course not. The defense should be that execution is a barbarous anachronism, and the only people who could possibly support it are blood thirsty sociopaths who belong in the chair just as much as the convicted murderer.

Valvano, you're no better than a lynch-mob.

[sam i am]

Appeals should be limited to one, barring substantially exonerating new evidence.

DNA testing should be mandatory in all capital cases where death is a possible penalty.

Institution of the death penalty should be swift after the final appeal and all DNA evidence has deemed the guilty irreconciably so (within 30 days, IMO).


Having those three steps would save the costs of 1) long incarcerations, 2) endless appeals with attorneys fees ratcheting skyward, and 3) the doubts of those who worry about an innocent being put to death.


There are certainly strong arguments for reconsidering the death penalty as it is currently instituted based upon faulty past convictions.


Being anti-death penalty is a noble, reasoned position that I respectfully disagree with based upon lifetime personal experiences and the law as currently formulated in the US. IF the death penalty were outlawed, I would not be a supporter of breaking the law (just as I heartily disagree with abortion being legal, but I repsect the law and DO NOT think that those who want it changed should take law into their own hands).


Protesting the death penalty is certainly one way to garner public attention to the perceived inequities, but changing the law to disallow for the death penalty is a much more surefire way to ensure the end of what you may perceive to be a "barbaric" manner of justice.

[Schmeltz]

It is barbaric. There's no "perception" about it. You have only to look at the list of countries that still execute people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Death_Penalty_World_Map.png) to confirm this: backwaters, theocracies, and tyrannies the lot of them. Well, one or two exceptions.

[sam i am]

Schmeltz....there is certainly "perception" involved.

Some see justice while others see barbarism.

Do you believe in self-defense....i.e., would you kill someone who was an imminent threat to your own life? Or, would you allow yourself to die because it would be "barbaric" to kill that other person?

You see the analogy, I hope : societies have, from time immemorial, chosen to perceive murderers (and pirates, etc., et al) as IMMINENT threats to the body politic, thus allowing for the excision of such threats before they strike again.