It just doesn't make sense

[D_Raay]

I am just not buying the official explanation. While many in the country probably do, they make the mistake of not thinking it through. In some cases, they want to believe.

If fictional terrorists concocted by Hollywood can figure out that the National Security Agency is listening to their every call, guess what? Real-life terrorists know this, too. So when a hyperventilating President Bush rants that the exposure of his warrant-free wiretapping in a newspaper is shameful and puts "our citizens at risk" by revealing our espionage playbook, you have to wonder what he is really trying to hide. Our enemies, as America has learned the hard way, are not morons. Even if Al Qaeda hasn't seen "Sleeper Cell" because it refuses to spring for pay cable, it has surely assumed from the get-go that the White House would ignore legal restraints on eavesdropping, just as it has on detainee jurisprudence and torture.

Real terrorists and organized crime know not to use the phones or Internet to communicate, let alone "allowed" methods of encryption like DES or PGP. Therefore the monitoring of phones and email has nothing to do with fighting crime or terror and everything to do with keeping the public cowed down and afraid to talk to each other about what the government is doing.

[Qdrop]

yeah, this is some shady shit indeed.

the Bush administration just can't dodge anymore bullets....


i mean, i don't necessarily believe that this wiretapping, in and of itself, was done for fascist reasons, to attack the fabric of our liberty...

i believe it was done in anti-terrorist efforts.

however, that doesn't change the fact that these manuevers WERE illegal...and cannot be tolerated.

while, the intent THIS TIME was not an attack on our liberty....it shows that the ILLEGAL process to do so is in place....and THAT'S scary. the tools for fascism are being sharpened.

[SobaViolence]

you guys sound paranoid...



feels good, donit?

[yeahwho]

It's all part of the "Take Away Our Civil Liberties Act" er, I mean "Patriot Act" mentality. If we don't have much success in combating terror let's give a listen in on people that disagree with my administrations policies. No need to feel paranoid, because thats whats happening and it is illegal.

We the people need to exercise the rights we've fought and will continue to fight for and get to the bottom of this once and for all. President Bush is not known for being the forthcoming type. Let's face it, this administration is not about transparency and accountability.

D_Raay, you are correct in not buying the official explanation. It makes sense to think it through and find out the true logic in illegal spying. I believe they have not been honest in these cases, beyond that, they want law-abiding citizens to be afraid of the power of the NSA. Everything about these draft-dodging chicken-hawks is fear-based. The more I understand fear-based policies, the more it helps me understand the people behind them. They now seem predictable with a crisis always active and lurking. It's fucking horrible way to run a country.

It's like that bumpersticker I saw last Spring in San Francisco, Got Fear?

[kaiser soze]

they're not spying on terrorists..

they're spying on their citizens

that's why they are paranoid

c'mon, spying on Quakers and high school groups?!?

they're pulling a political quicky, but we're too fast for them

smells like Watergate and this prezteldent should step aside

[King PSYZ]

I am just not buying the official explanation. While many in the country probably do, they make the mistake of not thinking it through. In some cases, they want to believe.

If fictional terrorists concocted by Hollywood can figure out that the National Security Agency is listening to their every call, guess what? Real-life terrorists know this, too. So when a hyperventilating President Bush rants that the exposure of his warrant-free wiretapping in a newspaper is shameful and puts "our citizens at risk" by revealing our espionage playbook, you have to wonder what he is really trying to hide. Our enemies, as America has learned the hard way, are not morons. Even if Al Qaeda hasn't seen "Sleeper Cell" because it refuses to spring for pay cable, it has surely assumed from the get-go that the White House would ignore legal restraints on eavesdropping, just as it has on detainee jurisprudence and torture.

Real terrorists and organized crime know not to use the phones or Internet to communicate, let alone "allowed" methods of encryption like DES or PGP. Therefore the monitoring of phones and email has nothing to do with fighting crime or terror and everything to do with keeping the public cowed down and afraid to talk to each other about what the government is doing.
what's that sound?

oh the sound of a nail being squarely hit on it's head with the hammer of logic.

[sam i am]

How has the Patriot Act or this so-called "illegal" wiretapping infringed upon any of your rights personally?

Anyone?

[Schmeltz]

Yeah, you shouldn't get mad until you yourself are directly affected. It's like sam was telling me the other day: seems he's against the death penalty because he doesn't know anybody who's ever been murdered.

[D_Raay]

http://nytimes.com/2006/01/17/politics/17nsa.html?hp&ex=1137474000&en=9aa4386db9bb10f6&ei=5094&partner=homepage

WASHINGTON, Jan. 16 - Two leading civil rights groups plan to file lawsuits Tuesday against the Bush administration over its domestic spying program to determine whether the operation was used to monitor 10 defense lawyers, journalists, scholars, political activists and other Americans with ties to the Middle East.

The two lawsuits, which are being filed separately by the American Civil Liberties Union in Federal District Court in Detroit and the Center for Constitutional Rights in Federal District Court in Manhattan, are the first major court challenges to the eavesdropping program.

Both groups are seeking to have the courts order an immediate end to the program, which the groups say is illegal and unconstitutional. The Bush administration has strongly defended the legality and necessity of the surveillance program, and officials said the Justice Department would probably oppose the lawsuits on national security grounds.

[Funkaloyd]

How has the Patriot Act or this so-called "illegal" wiretapping infringed upon any of your rights personally?
"First they came for the Communists..."

[ASsman]

Heh, like Jar-Jar Binks... sam always know's what to say to make me chuckle. Oh sam, when will the acid trip end?

[Ali]

How has the Patriot Act or this so-called "illegal" wiretapping infringed upon any of your rights personally?

Anyone?Cat Stevens (http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15219) for instance.

[sam i am]

Heh, like Jar-Jar Binks... sam always know's what to say to make me chuckle. Oh sam, when will the acid trip end?


I'm sorry....were you talking just now?

I was soooooo distracted by all the pretty trails my fingers were making in front of my face......


ooooooohhhhh......

[sam i am]

Yeah, you shouldn't get mad until you yourself are directly affected. It's like sam was telling me the other day: seems he's against the death penalty because he doesn't know anybody who's ever been murdered.

That's not the point, and you know it.

The point is that it HASN'T affected any of our rights to freely communicate.

And, I know the reponse will be something along the lines of...."tell that to Cat Stevens...."


Oooooppsss....didn't read the above before I wrote that :rolleyes:


Anyhow.....

The bottom line is that the US is damned if we do and we're damned if we don't in all of your minds, so we might as well do what we want, cuz we're gonna crap no matter what.

[Ali]

The point is that it HASN'T affected any of our rights to freely communicate.Who's "we" paleface? As long as you communicate freely about something which doesn't diss Uncle Sam, you are free to do so. Just be careful and you'll be OK.And, I know the reponse will be something along the lines of...."tell that to Cat Stevens...."Freaky. I responded before you posted. We must have some sort of Psychic bond or something.

[sam i am]

Who's "we" paleface? As long as you communicate freely about something which doesn't diss Uncle Sam, you are free to do so. Just be careful and you'll be OK.Freaky. I responded before you posted. We must have some sort of Psychic bond or something.

Ali...we're bonded in so many ways it's scary.

It's like your Bizarro to my Superman...or maybe Lex Luther.

Anyhow....the "we" I was referring to above was the US.

AND....if it were true that you couldn't diss Uncle Sam freely, don't you think people like Michael Moore and John Stewart, etc., et al would be rounded up and brought in for "questioning?"

[synch]

Pah, typical. In your mind you are the good guy :rolleyes:

[sam i am]

Pah, typical. In your mind you are the good guy :rolleyes:

Pah, typical. In your mind you are the good guy :rolleyes:

[synch]

Nah, if I were so cocky as to make a superhero comparison I'd have gone with a more neutral approach, you know, spiderman/batman, something like that.

[sam i am]

Nah, if I were so cocky as to make a superhero comparison I'd have gone with a more neutral approach, you know, spiderman/batman, something like that.

I wasn't aware you were referring to the Superman comment above.

Mea culpa.

Anyhow, who WANTS to be Bizarro or Lex Luther? Doesn't everyone envision themselves as the hero, not the villain?

That's the essence of disagreement : you think you're right, I think I'm right...debate.

[synch]

It shouldn't have to be like that. Ideally you'd listen to what I have to say and I listen to what you have to say and we might end up somewhere in the middle(ish).

Doesn't always work that way, I know.

[sam i am]

It shouldn't have to be like that. Ideally you'd listen to what I have to say and I listen to what you have to say and we might end up somewhere in the middle(ish).

Doesn't always work that way, I know.

Agreed that is the ideal....unfortunately we come from different paradigms that rarely allow for true debate and coincidence of ideals.

However, in the meantime, at least it's fun to talk past each other, ain't it?

[ASsman]

Pff, you square. You have never done acid, that much is known.