Warriors&Wusses

[yeahwho]

Joel Stein has created quite a stir with his LATimes ed/op piece published 1-24-06 titled, "Warriors and wusses (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein24jan24,0,1789435,print.column?coll=la-news-comment-opinions)".

I don't support our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on. ... I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken — and they're wussy by definition. ... Blindly lending support to our soldiers, I fear, will keep them overseas longer by giving soft acquiescence to the hawks who sent them there — and who might one day want to send them somewhere else

[FunkyHiFi]

I'm against the war....but I'm not a pacifist because common sense dictates that sometimes a nation *has* to fight to protect itself (and I think mma competitions are cool :) ).....and I support our troops because they are our fellow American citizens.

I won't be dragged into this mindset of extremes that seems to be so popular nowadays i.e. yes/no, on/off, black/white, rich/poor, super liberal/ultra-conservative, because that's not how the REAL world works.

[ChrisLove]

I'm against the war....but I'm not a pacifist because common sense dictates that sometimes a nation *has* to fight to protect itself (and I think mma competitions are cool :) ).....and I support our troops because they are our fellow American citizens.

I won't be dragged into this mindset of extremes that seems to be so popular nowadays i.e. yes/no, on/off, black/white, rich/poor, super liberal/ultra-conservative, because that's not how the REAL world works.


How do you rationalise the position of supporting someone for the reason that they happen to have been born within the same imaginary borders as you?

Its strikes me that this type of patriotism or indeed patriotism in general is the most basic and sickening form of bigotry going…..

Its hard to resist tho – for obvious reasons, it is ingrained into the young of almost all nations at every turn – personally, I have no difficulty with not supporting "our " troops (Although I have no troops, yo) but I still root for English sports teams. I cant quite justify that other than by saying it doesn’t really do any harm and it makes sports more fun

[FunkyHiFi]

Its strikes me that this type of patriotism or indeed patriotism in general is the most basic and sickening form of bigotry going…..
Um.....I didn't say I supported what they were DOING, I am supporting them as fellow citizens and human beings, i.e. I hope they are unharmed & stay healthy as possible-physically and mentally-for their own sake and their families/wives/friends' sake, I hope they can return to their homes as soon as possible; and I hope they can do something positive for the Iraqi people while they are forced to be there by the clueless and selfish idiots running the United States' government.

Sorry that you don't like patriotism-if it's not misused, it can be a good thing. I'm no communist, but just like a family, sometimes the people of a country have to stick together to get through the hard times. Always thinking of the self only serves to cause a form of anarchy and in the long run nothing good will be accomplished.

And yes, I do come from a sports background (wrestling & football) where sticking up for teammates is the norm......and it's done for good reasons.

[ASsman]

I support them. If they object to being shipped to Iraq....

If they don't object they become part of it, can't be part of that can I. It's almost like saying I support the President because he's the President and ignore his bullshit policies. Could be Jesus for all I care, they hold the most power in this instance, who else would we send to die over there... Makes them that more responsible for their actions.

Also you said as citizens.. Well how can you support them as citizens if they are playing a contributing part of this war, by voting, acting.. Or have we left the good ole US democracy that we so valiently fight for.

I doubt there is any grey area in this case, we are talking about a war were thousands of innocent people have died... being in the moderate middle helps no one, conformity kills.

[yeahwho]

I really have no choice in the matter, if I don't pay my taxes (which a major chunk of, goes into military spending) I go to jail. I can vocalize all I want but, in the end the game is rigged.

I don't support mindless bumperstickers and cliche lockstep bullshit. I'm willing to wager the majority of the people in the shiny new cars sporting "Support Our Troops" ribbon stickers have done absolutely nothing other than put a .99 cent (http://www.flagsoncars.com/detail.asp?product_id=Supportcarmagnet) ribbon on there car.

[ASsman]

I do believe they aren't even stickers, rather magnetic whatevers... No serious commitment necessary...

[yeahwho]

I do believe they aren't even stickers, rather magnetic whatevers... No serious commitment necessary...

The sacrifice's we've made so far in this war effort as citizens is a invasion into our privacy, super high gas prices (to support the corporations) and the acceptance of torture.

Oh yeah and the "Take Away Your Civil Liberties Act" they call patriotic.

[ASsman]

If you throw a frog into a boiling pot he will jump out.
If you throw a frog into a pot of cold water, then slowly heat it up slowly, he will stay there and perish.

Great analogy from the X-Files, works great in this situation to, I doubt an explanations is required.

[yeahwho]

If you throw a frog into a boiling pot he will jump out.
If you throw a frog into a pot of cold water, then slowly heat it up slowly, he will stay there and perish.

Great analogy from the X-Files, works great in this situation to, I doubt an explanations is required.

If you've sworn to obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me...

If they give you a evil/illegal order...

...you are saying that your original oath is morally wrong.

I'm fried today but this may or may not sort out the conundrum/fallacy (http://www.wsu.edu/~asao/stuff/fal-ded.htm) of being against the war and supporting the troops.

[FunkyHiFi]

We'll never know how many soldiers don't believe in this war, but based on personal experience with my military freinds/relatives/colleagues I'll bet a LOT of them do not believe it is a just war.

People don't sign up for the military thinking that it will be enjoyable to fight a war desired mostly by a bunch of corporations-(most?) just thought it was an honorable thing to be one who defends their country.

Soldiers cannot pick and choose what war they want to fight.

Question: during the Vietnam war, what would we call the people who greeted returning soldiers by spitting on them? NON troop supporters? They should have been spitting on the *White House* if they wanted to make a point-the soldiers had nothing to do with the decision to be in Vietnam.

[ASsman]

So now we are comparing 'our' souldiers to spinless chumps, following whatever dictator is in office. I guess they aren't murderers, they were just following orders. Excellent, that put's them in a better light.
---
Edit: Do soldiers stop being citizens of a democracy, or stop participating in it, and just become unthinking, unflinching, killing machines, who are no longer part of the democractic process. So it's ok to commit war crimes on a large scale as long as it's from the big guy. If it's a war crime commited by a single soldier...oh that's wrong.The reason I laugh single soldiers are tried for war crimes when the entire war is just that. Sorry "Conflict" congress has yet to declare war.

Question: during the Vietnam war, what would we call the people who greeted returning soldiers by spitting on them? NON troop supporters?
I would call those people Non-War supporters, Anti-War Crime supporters, so on so forth.



They should have been spitting on the *White House* if they wanted to make a point-the soldiers had nothing to do with the decision to be in Vietnam.
They were if you recall, many protests and whatever they could do as citizens, speaking up, assembling etc.

Of course the Soldiers had nothing to do in the decision making, neither did German soldiers during WWII. Tortured and killed nonetheless, of course you would argue they were just defending their country aswell, or following 'orders'.

[SobaViolence]

i didn't support the troops way before anyone else...posers.

[ChrisLove]

Um.....I didn't say I supported what they were DOING, I am supporting them as fellow citizens and human beings,
Um..... I didnt question whether you supported what they were doing, I asked why you gave them support for being fellow citizens?

I brought in the sport example to show that I am not trying to diss you but challenging you to think about why it is that you/we/I give support to people for what are basically ridiculous reasons (ie they are the same nationailty).

And isnt saying that patriotism can be a good thing just like saying that racism/sexism/etc can be a good thing? A good thing for who?

[yeahwho]

Smedley Butler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler) on Interventionism
-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

[SobaViolence]

There will one day spring from the brain of science a machine or force so fearful in its potentialities, so absolutely terrifying, that even man, the fighter, who will dare torture and death in order to inflict torture and death, will be appalled, and so abandon war forever.
Thomas Edison

[DroppinScience]

I won't be dragged into this mindset of extremes that seems to be so popular nowadays i.e. yes/no, on/off, black/white, rich/poor, super liberal/ultra-conservative, because that's not how the REAL world works.

Amen. Absolutist thinking ("The troops are evil"/"The troops are angels") is seldom practical.

[SobaViolence]

troops submit to the will of the commander in chief, they knowingly give their minds and bodies to serve a political body, so don't tell me they are not inexstricably linked.

pull the hell out.

You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake. - Jeannette Rankin

[ASsman]

Amen. Absolutist thinking ("The troops are evil"/"The troops are angels") is seldom practical.
Yah, hardliners that are against war piss me off aswell. Why can't they be "somewhat" opposing. Don't think there is too much grey area in this topic, but hell that's just me.

Moderate thinking, feh.

[FunkyHiFi]

I like & beleive that speech by Mr. Butler. I'm still learning about this subject but it goes along with things I've seen on C-SPAN, The History Channel, and books I've read. Even back in history class in high school some of the reasons for going to war seemed pretty suspect.

Next...........

Wow, some of y'all have some really negative & cynical attitudes. :(

I get the feeling that some of you think that anyone that believes in teamwork, an authority structure or putting your faith in another person, is dim-witted and easily impressed (or as my buddy calls them, "sheeple" [people+sheep]). And just like any potentially powerful thing, such concepts can be abused, but there's a lot of good that can come from them too. So until I know for sure, I always think that that coach/teacher/politician/police officer/etc is looking out for me. But if I find out he/she is not, the (figurative) ass kickings will begin.

Now, as far as politics and a country's military are concerned, then the potential to get into some really twisted and non-good situations increases a lot. On the whole politicians don't really seem to want to work for the public's good-mostly they seem to want to work for THEIR own good.

I also have this weird notion that most people are basically honest, and so they think the other people around them are the same way & that they wouldn't be told any fundamental lies. But from what I can tell, some people in this country are so power hungry and selfish that by employing their super-logical and numbers-based (i.e. $$$) thinking system they've coem to the conclusion that using monumental lies is a great way to get richer and/or more powerful. So using huge lies is just another method to attain those goals, like just another piece of software or a machine to get things done faster, and ethics and morality are just roadblocks to that end. So these people have no problem looking directly into a camera and telling lie after lie to us......because their cold logic, untainted by any feeling of "public good", has relieved them of any feelings of guilt. And wonded-for-life and/or dead soldiers? These are just another set of notations on their Grand Plan spreadsheet.

And I think that many people are finally now starting to realize this. Everyone knows that most politicians lie a little, but never thought they would lie THAT badly, espeically when it involves using our own people i.e. soldiers to carry out that lie, and dying for it.

And to add to the above: I've never heard non-Americans describe the American people in general as liars or cheats or that we're shifty or shady. I have heard things like "loud" or "lacking refinement", comments like that. So in an indirect way that reinforces my belief that Americans in general aren't used to being lied to about fundamental matters by their own leaders, particularly in matters where our country itself could-and has been-be put in danger physically and financially-speaking (this tight financial relationship with China-a COMMUNIST country who represses its own people-scares the hell out of me. What the fuck is Washington D.C. thinking?!?! Oh wait I forgot, a trip to the Bahamas, dinner at the Waldorf-Astoria, that new Lexus, or........).

I'll be very interested to see how people here vote in 2008. I hope by then most of the neo-cons will have scuttled back into their dark little holes after all these scandals have exposed them for what they really are, and the extreme liberals have floated back to their politically-correct ivory towers in the clouds (did anyone else see that honesty pledge some Democrats were signing a few days ago? gawd was that ever nauseating). Then maybe a more down-to-earth prez will be elected. But to be perfectly honest, I think this won't happen though til 2012. :(

Lastly (FINALLY :) ) I think as a society-not just Americans but the entire planet-we are all still in school & learning how to conduct ourselves and how to deal with the "naughty" people among us. I still think humans are basically good but when you're dealing with six billion of them, there are bound to be a few shitheads in the bunch.

My college wrestling coach, Robert C. Heinlein, that army guy in my dorm, my eighth grade English teacher, my 9th grade math teacher (from New Yawk!), the cops who were decent, Henry Rollins, the Federation (really!), Neil Peart, Jon Anderson from Yes and various other people and entities-and real life experiences-all contributed to the above.

[DJ_Skrilla]

Sheep Sheep Sheep. Anyone remember 9/11 and the UPSWELLING of patriotism that hit everyones cars and trucks with flags? Sound similar? 80% of the people in my area believe Bush didnt do anything wrong with the wiretaps. Why? Because they say the have nothing to hide. Thats beside the point that its against the constitution.

THOSE WHO SACRIFICE LIBERTY FOR SECURITY DESERVE NEITHER. -BEN FRANKLIN (http://insomnia.livejournal.com/652389.html)

stand up and question this shit america, anything less would be un-american.