Troops Say, 'Fuck This Place'

[SobaViolence]

i'm paraphrasing... (http://guerrillanews.com/headlines/7893/Soliders_Say_Let_s_Quit_Iraq)

Only 23 percent backed Mr. Bush’s position that they should stay as long as necessary. In contrast, 72 percent said that U.S. troops should be pulled out within one year. Of those, 29 percent said they should withdraw ‘’immediately.’’

this article somewhat restored my optimistic outlook on the state of the world...

[enree erzweglle]

Under the right sets of conditions, I could fight if necessary.

But I could only do that if I fully supported the cause at hand and even then, I'd be conflicted.

How do soldiers do that? It baffles me, honestly.

[Ace42X]

How do soldiers do that? It baffles me, honestly.

Operant conditioning, mixed with indoctrination.

[enree erzweglle]

Operant conditioning, mixed with indoctrination.

So I know about this stuff--probably more than I should & certainly more than I need to all things considered. I know that it happens and it's key to how the miliary operates and thrives.

I still wonder why anyone who also understands that at that same level would support it, sign onto it willingly. I don't quite know how they function within that once they realize that they have no choices and certainly no control.

[Ace42X]

I still wonder why anyone who also understands that at that same level would support it, sign onto it willingly.

Most don't understand it, the rest understand it, but are already indoctrinated. "I know they are telling me it's good, but, uh, I feel it's good anyway..."

[enree erzweglle]

Most don't understand it, the rest understand it, but are already indoctrinated. "I know they are telling me it's good, but, uh, I feel it's good anyway..."Which is one more reason for why the ROTC should be dissolved.

[Ace42X]

Which is one more reason for why the ROTC should be dissolved.

I assume that isn't the Royal Officer Training Corps?

[enree erzweglle]

I assume that isn't the Royal Officer Training Corps?That would be a correct assumption.

Sorry, you're across the water. I should have spelled it out: ROTC=Reserve Officers' Training Corps. They're military recruiting units that are situated on our college campuses. They lure the unsuspecting. And maybe the suspecting too.

[Ace42X]

Sorry, you're across the water. I should have spelled it out: ROTC=Reserve Officers' Training Corps. They're military recruiting units that are situated on our college campuses. They lure the unsuspecting. And maybe the suspecting too.

Here, the OTC isn't so bad. I had several housemates who were in the OTC (IE students who went out on activities, received training, etc.) and they were pretty well adjusted. All of them were staunchly anti-Iraq, and generally pretty left leaning. It's not like in (I think it was) Bowling for Columbine, where they approach everyone with tons of propoganda and promises of a better life. I guess, like fast food, we just don't have the same sort of mentality when it comes to that sort of thing.

Yet.

[Schmeltz]

Yeah, but what they don't tell you is they polled more Democrat and Independent troops than Republican troops.

:rolleyes:

[Ace42X]

That made me do one of those "back of the throat snort" laughs. He probably doesn't even realise he is being parodied.

[yeahwho]

Fucking Swiftboaters.

[Schmeltz]

Ah well. If it gets a laugh, I'm happy.

[Ace42X]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,,1720082,00.html

[ASsman]

That's what I've been saying. Oh you mean Iraq? Yeah, fucking A right.

[ChrisLove]

Operant conditioning, mixed with indoctrination.

The (ex army) postie at work overheard me say I felt no loyalty to the queen (during a conversation about patriotism yesterday) - he walked up and said that people like me shoud be hanged. and walked off. Its amazing what can be done to peoples minds.

[fucktopgirl]

The (ex army) postie at work overheard me say I felt no loyalty to the queen (during a conversation about patriotism yesterday) - he walked up and said that people like me shoud be hanged. and walked off. Its amazing what can be done to peoples minds.


That is pretty scary,for shure!And thoses kinds of fuckers like this guys are dangerous to human freedom.Like i said before,soon you gona have to ask permission before farting,never knowing if you could offend somebody!

[Bob]

Under the right sets of conditions, I could fight if necessary.

But I could only do that if I fully supported the cause at hand and even then, I'd be conflicted.

How do soldiers do that? It baffles me, honestly.

i remember some joke/saying i read from...somewhere, i don't know. anyway, a pacifist is talking to his drill instructor [i guess there was a draft or something? this is probably from vietnam], and he says "you can't make me fight." and the drill instructor says, "no, but we can make you go where the fighting is and let you make up your own mind", or something to that effect.

so i guess, soldiers do it because they pretty much have to once they get there. it's hard to not fight when you're in a fight. not impossible, just hard.

i don't know, i've never been in the army.

[SobaViolence]

i don't know, i've never been in the army.

i recommend keeping it that way.

[Bob]

if i can help it!

the navy, maybe. i mean rocket science is more fun when you get to play with real rockets :rolleyes: i'd love to play with those toys, it sounds like a really fun game...that's another thread, sorry

[FunkyHiFi]

I've watched news reports from Iraq where reporters were interviewing soldiers - grunts and/or their superiors - and when asked what they thought of fighting this war, their answer many times would be something like this: "I have to stay here to make sure my buddies are kept safe so they can finally go home".

But no mention of Bush's idealogies or winning the war.

For all we know all these interviews were edited in some way to satisfy some group's agenda, but that's not the feeling I got. I think those soldiers who said the above meant just what they said, but said it in a way that would not get them in trouble, backing up what that survey found.

And as far as this military indoctrination issue, some of you make it sound like it is evil or something. I get the feeling such comments may come from people who have never been part of a team, especially sports-related, where having one goal in mind and working smoothly together to try to achieve that goal was paramount & anything else (within reason) was of secondary importance. It's like you think if you sacrifice ANY of your own personal goals, you think you are cheating yourself. I'm no fan of communism, but I just don't understand such a "100% me" point of view.

[enree erzweglle]

Here, the OTC isn't so bad. I had several housemates who were in the OTC (IE students who went out on activities, received training, etc.) and they were pretty well adjusted. All of them were staunchly anti-Iraq, and generally pretty left leaning. It's not like in (I think it was) Bowling for Columbine, where they approach everyone with tons of propoganda and promises of a better life. I guess, like fast food, we just don't have the same sort of mentality when it comes to that sort of thing.

Yet.I witnessed the propaganda and promises personally with a recruiting officer. It was impressive how he (the officer) could switch gears in real time when what he was trying to sell wasn't working. Those guys are used car salesmen in fatigues.

[enree erzweglle]

I'm interested to see the documentary Why We Fight. It came to my town in the summer at a film festival and I missed it. It'll be on DVD at a point and I'll get it through Netflix.

Basically, they go around and ask people that question--why do you fight (or why do you support fighting)--and nearly always, the first answer is for "freedom" but when they press the question beyond that, the responses break down. It's a look into that aspect of the U.S. military and the recruiting techniques too, I believe.

[SobaViolence]

education levels have something to do with it, as well...


why do the poor always fight the war?/soad

[Schmeltz]

And as far as this military indoctrination issue, some of you make it sound like it is evil or something. I get the feeling such comments may come from people who have never been part of a team, especially sports-related, where having one goal in mind and working smoothly together to try to achieve that goal was paramount


The psychological conditioning employed by modern military forces goes much deeper than simple team dynamics. It involves breaking down both natural instincts and learned social programming in order to turn young men into remorseless killing machines. Gwynne Dyer made an excellent documentary a few years back about Marine boot camp and the attitudes it attempts to inculcate in recruits as replacement for the things they were taught as responsible members of society ("Killing people is wrong," etc). This manipulative reconstruction probably goes a long way toward explaining the severe problems encountered by many Iraq veterans attempting to reintegrate themselves into normal society.

As far as why soldiers fight - study after study of both living veterans and the personal records of soldiers from generations ago show that most troops fight for the men next to them, as Freebasser said. Ideals of patriotism and glory are just that: ideals that quickly evaporate in the face of battle. This is why regimental or unit spirit is such a powerful factor in holding an army together, and it explains the animalistic barbarism into which soldiers can descend when their primary group, the social unit for which they sacrifice much of their own humanity, is destroyed and they feel they have nothing left to live for.

[Ace42X]

"I have to stay here to make sure my buddies are kept safe so they can finally go home".

I don't doubt that is the case. However, the obvious problem with this is that their buddies are "still there" for the same reason. So the whole army is "just there because the rest of the army is." Like that makes any sense. And precisely how do they "keep their buddies safe" ? By killing someone else who is there "to keep his buddies safe."

Sorry, but as a moral justification, it is totally barren.

But no mention of Bush's idealogies or winning the war.

Which is part of the manipulation perpetrated on them. If they were "there to keep their buddies safe" - how come they aren't making more of an effort to get their buddies out of the danger zone? By being there, they are enabling the perpetration of the very system which puts their "buddies" in danger. You want to keep your buddies safe? Talk them into putting down their guns and going home, FFS. Morons. Don't give them the confidence and the man-power to boldly storm into the middle of a warzone!

And as far as this military indoctrination issue, some of you make it sound like it is evil or something.

Of course it is evil. Anything that facilitates organised murder has to be. Indoctrination allows the dehumanisation and demonification of other human beings with the sole purpose of making it easier to kill them. It is what made the holocaust possible, it is what makes slavery possible. It allows otherwise respectable human beings to commit appalling and hideous atrocities without hesitation, personal responsibility or personal scrutiny. It makes soldiers into mercenaries.

I get the feeling such comments may come from people who have never been part of a team,

That *kill* people for a living.

where having one goal in mind and working smoothly together to try to achieve that goal was paramount & anything else (within reason) was of secondary importance.

And that is the point, introduction makes "within reason" irrelevant. It is about compliance, soldiers do not get to chose their orders, or say "you want us to WHAT? That's unreasonable." And they are indoctrinated to the point where questioning isn't in their nature. As they are not in a position to choose the goal, or comment on it, or often even know what it is, they cannot decide whether the "anything else" is of any importance.

Quite frankly, single-mindedness to achieve a goal is seldom an admirable trait. Would you say of the Nazis "At least they worked smoothly in pursuit of their goals" ? I doubt it.

It's like you think if you sacrifice ANY of your own personal goals, you think you are cheating yourself. I'm no fan of communism, but I just don't understand such a "100% me" point of view.

It's not about sacrificing or seconding goals, it is about sacrifing responsibility for your actions and your ability to make your own judgements for an invisible agenda you can't see or evaluate.