Latest study on Altruism...

[Qdrop]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11641621/

interesting...

this really leans toward altruism being innate, and pure (at least at this stage of life)....i don't see the EGO really having any precence in an 18 month old...but who knows.

curious to know if they have done any studies on how FAR altruistic behavior will go in the average human.

[ms.peachy]

Oh weird moment - right before I opened this, I was just reading this. (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/03/science/03chimp.html)

[enree erzweglle]

That was kind of you to post that article, Q.

[ChrisLove]

That was kind of you to post that article, Q.


He is only doing it to receive gratifying feedback like this.

[Qdrop]

He is only doing it to receive gratifying feedback like this.


exaclty....does altruism exsist once we develop an ego?

[ChrisLove]

exaclty....does altruism exsist once we develop an ego?


Have you read The Selfish Gene? Has a lot to say about altruism - very intresting. The gist being that any altruistic activity by an animal is actually a selfish "act" commited by a piece of genetic code in order to ensure that it is copied into future generations. Its a pretty convincing argument although that books kind of old andI dont know what the latest thinking is

[Ace42X]

I think everyone can agree that altruism is to some extent selfish. Whether it ensures propogation, or a biological imperative for "fair play" or if acts of heroism or selflessness improve your self-worth (creating positive feelings) or improve your social standing (other people holding you in higher esteem) etc etc.

However, it is a fallacy to thus say that "altruism doesn't exist" - generally it is only pedants or neauveau intellectuals that feel that something this blisteringly obvious needs to be pointed out, and then it is generally to reinforce misanthropy or some other position.

You might as well say that "truth" doesn't exist because everything is subjective. All very useful for philosophy, but not a distinction that is of pragmatic value. We live our lives based on the supposition that there is a definitive knowable truth, and it seems to work well enough. The same of true of altruism.

[Qdrop]

Have you read The Selfish Gene? Has a lot to say about altruism - very intresting. The gist being that any altruistic activity by an animal is actually a selfish "act" commited by a piece of genetic code in order to ensure that it is copied into future generations. Its a pretty convincing argument although that books kind of old andI dont know what the latest thinking is

that has been challenged from time to time (ask Ace), but that still is the standard theory in most circles.

i do think there is more to it than that....in at least a communal or "kinship" way. i think many species, particularly pack or social animals like us...devoloped such actions on more than just an individual (selfish) level. group species need to depend on each other for surivial, the group becomes a virtual superorganism....i think there are genuine acts of "altruism" that benefit the whole, but not that individual.

(i supposed you could get philisophical and say anything that benifits the whole, benifits the "one"....so it IS still a "selfish" act)

[SobaViolence]

i'd rather be victim of somewhat questionable altruism, then blatant neglect.


people are naturally good, we're just trained to watch out for #1 because, supposedly, there are boogymen(women) behind every corner.

[Qdrop]

people are naturally good, based on what?

we're just trained to watch out for #1 because, supposedly, there are boogymen(women) behind every corner. but couldn't one say the opposite? that we are naturally selfish, but are trained to be "good"? if one can be innate (natural), can't the other?

and define "good".

and i want Soba to answer this....no one come to his aid.

[Ace42X]

and i want Soba to answer this....no one come to his aid.

You and your vendettas... It is amazing how long you can bear a grudge.

[EN[i]GMA]

I'm actually reading the Selfish Gene right now.

What a fantastic convergance.

[Qdrop]

You and your vendettas... It is amazing how long you can bear a grudge.

if he would just, once and for all, admit that 90% of his "convictions" come from soundbytes and emotional impulses, and not from educated research or facts....
i'd never bother the kid again.

as with other challenges i have made to him...he will ignore this one and carry on with ignorant ramblings and announcements....

right or wrong...at least i engage in debate about my beliefs and statements....and can show a history of educated research behind them.
Soba can't say or show that.
yet he keeps blabbing....

and most of you applaud him for this because his statements echo your own.

yet you'll tear Racer or gizmo down for essentially engaging in the same parroting mental process at will....

[D_Raay]

yet you'll tear Racer or gizmo down for essentially engaging in the same parroting mental process at will....
That is quite a reach...

[Ace42X]

if he would just, once and for all, admit that 90% of his "convictions" come from soundbytes and emotional impulses, and not from educated research or facts....
i'd never bother the kid again.

(...)

yet you'll tear Racer or gizmo down for essentially engaging in the same parroting mental process at will....

And yet you generally leave them alone. As you point out, the whole forum (and internet in general) is full of people doing that, and yet you decide to tilt at the one guy you have a history of bitching at... Next you'll accuse me of tearing Racer and Gizmo (forgot Valvano) down "just to play devil's advocate" as you have done elsewhere. Jesus, make your mind up...

Incidently, most of my posts against Gismo have involved "fuck off, you're a moron" rather than any sort of coherent criticism.

[EN[i]GMA]

And yet you generally leave them alone. As you point out, the whole forum (and internet in general) is full of people doing that, and yet you decide to tilt at the one guy you have a history of bitching at... Next you'll accuse me of tearing Racer and Gizmo (forgot Valvano) down "just to play devil's advocate" as you have done elsewhere. Jesus, make your mind up...

Incidently, most of my posts against Gismo have involved "fuck off, you're a moron" rather than any sort of coherent criticism.

There are only so many hours a day.

Perhaps it's an equitable system that a designated person pick a specific person to ridicule and berate in an attempt to impart basic rationality.

I, for one, don't have the time or the will to browbeat the numerous intellectual delinquents that frequent this forum; I leave the task to you and I must say you perform admirably.

I thought the line where gmsisko1 said a a guy broke his car window because he had a Bush sticker, so he wrote the guy a ticket, to which you responded 'you're confusing 'write a ticket' with 'fellate', is one of the best things I've ever read.

I have a habit of causing people to ignore my stentorian logic and to, in it's stead, become fixated on my splendiferous vocabulary and exquisite sentence structures. It seems they think my prose is 'smarter-than-you' in nature, which it is.

Note: Self-aggrandizment contained within is entirely by design and

Second Note: When looking for this quote I read through a bunch of old threads where I argued for some pretty stupid shit.

Please forgive that 3 month or so period when I considered myself the staunchest libertarian that ever lived etc.

I recant most of that bullshit, and I realize now how facile most libertarian arguments are.

I don't know what to call myself anymore, other than 'awesome'.

I don't know why I'm posting this either. It seemed somehow relevent when I started writing. Ah well.

[EN[i]GMA]

That is quite a reach...

I don't know, some of Soba's nihilistic-chic can get old after a while.

[2sweet2Bsour]

GMA']in it's stead, become fixated on my splendiferous vocabulary and exquisite sentence structures.

That, and the bear. Actually, it's all about the bear for me. It's mesmerizing.

[kaiser soze]

I'm more altruisstic tham altruism himseklfm

yeaaaaah, drunk is the new bomB!

I'm more dick than tudrburgklerski

polish mafia!

[D_Raay]

GMA']I don't know, some of Soba's nihilistic-chic can get old after a while.
That is neither here nor there. I would hardly compare Soba to gizmo or racer.

[yeahwho]

OK, let's see,

Qdrop
ms.peachy
enree erzweglle
ChrisLove
Ace42X
SobaViolence
EN[i]GMA
2sweet2Bsour
kaiser soze
D_Raay

Yep, this is where I come in and straighten out your sorry asses. An egotist is someone who thinks more about themselves than they do me.

To be truly altruistic you must do something nice for somebody else and not get caught.

[Qdrop]

And yet you generally leave them alone. because it's been well anounced that they are complete douches....and everyone agrees and sees that. no need to beat the dead horse.

with Soba, on the other hand....
none of you (other than Enigma) acknowledge that the horse even exists. until you do, i will ride that bag of bones into the sunset....

As you point out, the whole forum (and internet in general) is full of people doing that, and yet you decide to tilt at the one guy you have a history of bitching at... oh no....they're are many on that list...

i bitch at Soba because it infuriates me that the lot of you refuse to see him for what he is: a liberal Valvano/Gizmo.
i still remember that one thread he started, blantantly looking for some verbal felatio (something about how he felt he doesn't make a differance on this board or some claptrap) and you all obliged with "oh Soba, you are one of my favorite posters *slurp slurp*"
i nearly vomited.

Next you'll accuse me of tearing Racer and Gizmo (forgot Valvano) down "just to play devil's advocate" as you have done elsewhere. Jesus, make your mind up... jesus, obviously you WILL always been in the right against those retards....i've never accused you of playing devil's advocate against them...
have i?

Incidently, most of my posts against Gismo have involved "fuck off, you're a moron" rather than any sort of coherent criticism. he doesn't even deserve that much.

[EN[i]GMA]

That, and the bear. Actually, it's all about the bear for me. It's mesmerizing.

It's Rupert off of Family Guy.

[SobaViolence]

qdrop...im not a liberal.

i don't know how many time i have to repeat that fact. my statements are based on my beliefs. i never said anything about fact or proof.

you either believe or you don't, and you know what, fine attack me, it's all right. i believe people are naturally good. ok. it's a belief. even with the way you act, i think deep down you're a good person, you just like the negative type of attention.

just because i believe in something doesn't mean that i'm intrinsically wrong. and just because you're a pompous dick, doesn't mean you're wrong either.

and i don't know where these 'soundbites' come from, because i don't watch that much television, and you're right, i have no proof. but neither do you.

and if you do. show me the research and proof that people are one or the other. if you do, i'll never make a pronouncement again. hell, i'll leave the politics section of the board.

[SobaViolence]

ps. emotional impulses?

i have rarely seen a post of yours that isn't emotional. right in this thread you're angry and vengeful, sprinkled with jealous. so piss off.

[yeahwho]

Hey, it's a contest. Some dork asks opinions about how kind toddlers are then smacks you upside the head because his keyboard makes his penis look big.

Then if you have some sort of opinion on the topic about "altruism" that is not up to his opinion on "altruism" you should feel ashamed of yourself and debate with a volley of references that made you be the way you are.

I actually have no idea what this thread is about....but I have the feeling it's going to go from altruism straight into the shitstorm at 90 MPH.

(y) :D perfect!

I can use some of my newer slang like goose penis and stuff.

[fucktopgirl]

So,i believe that when a human is born,it is "pure "and is spirit is ready to be "programmed".We have the capacity to be genuine being as well as mean.A kid a 18 month is altruism because he is in a positives surrounding,he learn how to be helpfull.Take a 18 months old who there is hate and violence in is entourage,i am shure the altruism part in him would be repressed!

AS far as an ego act/selfish act to be altruism,i dont think for 18 month kid it is;it is kindness at is purest form,later in life though ,we learn quickly the impact of being helpfull and getting some of this goodness back!The karma !

[ms.peachy]

So,i believe that when a human is born,it is "pure "and is spirit is ready to be "programmed".

So, all 'nurture' and no 'nature'? Genetics has no effect on personality?

[fucktopgirl]

So, all 'nurture' and no 'nature'? Genetics has no effect on personality?
I never say thta genetic has no effect on personality,i never mention it!

True, so yea,we" already are programmed "with our genetic code,and yes it influence a lot of who we are going to be/are,that said, the nurturing part,learning,familial setting will amplified or modified what the genetic somehow!

A child that is born from dysfonctionnel parents(killer,insane,psycho..)might have a tendency to developp this predisposition thus becoming like his parent.BUt if you take this child and bringing him in a loving and healthy family,the genetic predisposition might never come to life,not entirely anyway!

Does that make sense?!

[ms.peachy]

Does that make sense?!
yes.

[Ace42X]

with Soba, on the other hand....
none of you (other than Enigma) acknowledge that the horse even exists. until you do, i will ride that bag of bones into the sunset.

What about SamIam, eh?

"oh Soba, you are one of my favorite posters *slurp slurp*"
i nearly vomited.

"Oh, it is nice to have a sensible Republican on the board that is literate, and well read, and normal, and sensible, and so well endowed"... Never mind the fact that he is a juvenile e-stalker, a liar, and a nutjob to boot.

i've never accused you of playing devil's advocate against them...
have i?

You *have* accused me of 'routinely' playing devil's advocate, siding with every minority viewpoint for either love of the underdog / argument's sake / socialist, communist, or liberal hand-wringing / obscure personal reasons.

I didn'trealise there was an exception for those particular loons.

[D_Raay]

Hey, it's a contest. Some dork asks opinions about how kind toddlers are then smacks you upside the head because his keyboard makes his penis look big.

Then if you have some sort of opinion on the topic about "altruism" that is not up to his opinion on "altruism" you should feel ashamed of yourself and debate with a volley of references that made you be the way you are.

I actually have no idea what this thread is about....but I have the feeling it's going to go from altruism straight into the shitstorm at 90 MPH.

(y) :D perfect!

I can use some of my newer slang like goose penis and stuff.
Hehehe, nice. Thanks yeah for putting a little perspective on this, and with wit too.

[Ali]

qdrop...im not a liberal.

i don't know how many time i have to repeat that fact. my statements are based on my beliefs. i never said anything about fact or proof.

you either believe or you don't, and you know what, fine attack me, it's all right. i believe people are naturally good. ok. it's a belief. even with the way you act, i think deep down you're a good person, you just like the negative type of attention.

just because i believe in something doesn't mean that i'm intrinsically wrong. and just because you're a pompous dick, doesn't mean you're wrong either.

and i don't know where these 'soundbites' come from, because i don't watch that much television, and you're right, i have no proof. but neither do you.

and if you do. show me the research and proof that people are one or the other. if you do, i'll never make a pronouncement again. hell, i'll leave the politics section of the board. :Dwned!
Excellent response to a totally unprovoked attack.

P.S. ignore the Fool. Debate is futile with one so punily equipped. It's all attention seeking, responding to it will only encourage more of the same.

[Qdrop]

qdrop...im not a liberal.
uh huh.

i don't know how many time i have to repeat that fact. my statements are based on my beliefs. i never said anything about fact or proof.

you either believe or you don't, and you know what, fine attack me, it's all right. i believe people are naturally good. ok. it's a belief. even with the way you act, i think deep down you're a good person, you just like the negative type of attention. it's just that you NEVER have ANYTHING to back up your beliefs...ever. you never engage in even mildly protracted debate....and that has nothing to do with ME, you won't engage with ANYONE on ANYTHING.

agree or disagree...at least people like Ace, Sam, Draay, many others will go the distance on a topic, show some evidance of research, history, complex thought...go beyond just impulsive emotive responses...what you term as your "beliefs".

it very difficult to respect your beliefs, if you don't even respect them enough to aggressively defend them...or even discuss them at any lenght.
you just post a quick emotive soundbite response....and you're off.

just because i believe in something doesn't mean that i'm intrinsically wrong. and just because you're a pompous dick, doesn't mean you're wrong either. true, but you wouldn't even know if you or I were.

"soundbites" meaning trendy, emotional sentances that spark emotional responses, but have no depth.and i don't know where these 'soundbites' come from, because i don't watch that much television, and you're right, i have no proof. but neither do you. "soundbites" meaning trendy, emotional sentances that spark emotional responses, but have no depth.

and if you do. show me the research and proof that people are one or the other. if you do, i'll never make a pronouncement again. hell, i'll leave the politics section of the board.
you wouldn't read it if i did.

and there isn't any definative proof, one way or the other....but there have been plenty of studies...and a lot of debate on the matter that touches on other well researched topics.
but you wouldn't know anything about that.

[Qdrop]

What about SamIam, eh? what about him? at least he debates, shows evidence of research....



"Oh, it is nice to have a sensible Republican on the board that is literate, and well read, and normal, and sensible, and so well endowed"... Never mind the fact that he is a juvenile e-stalker, a liar, and a nutjob to boot. hell, i'll take it...



You *have* accused me of 'routinely' playing devil's advocate, siding with every minority viewpoint for either love of the underdog / argument's sake / socialist, communist, or liberal hand-wringing / obscure personal reasons. and you do....you KNOW you do.
and i am not obviously not innocent of some of the above charges...

but you deserve respect.....
you are the exact opposite of Soba....
your beliefs command respect on some level simply because of the lenghts you'll go to defend them.
you show a passion that Soba has never fuckin felt in his live for anything...other than his own face.

[SobaViolence]

qdrop, i dont answer or debate here because i had a revelation a long time ago that rare is it that anyone listens or takes things to heart. especially on this board. so i say what i got to say and leave it at that. i mean, what's the fucking point of debating opinion?

i think humans are innately 'good'. full stop. i could be wrong. i'm very open to that possibility. but, there's no point.

liberals only really exist in the US. i'm from Canada. being a liberal is being part of a left-of-centre political party.

it is very pretentious of you to assume what i do or do not know. i am aware i do not participate in 'quote wars' like you and enigma and ace. but i think it's tedious intellectual masturbation.

so, pick on me. that's fine. i don't deserve your respect. but, hey, at the same time, i don't want your respect. so have a nice day.

[Qdrop]

qdrop, i dont answer or debate here because i had a revelation a long time ago that rare is it that anyone listens or takes things to heart. especially on this board. so i say what i got to say and leave it at that. i mean, what's the fucking point of debating opinion?



then why post anything at all in this section?
eh?



never mind.
it's over.

bye.

[SobaViolence]

for fun.

[ChrisLove]

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46043