Begging for money

[CrankItUp!]

OK, so who works in an area where every time you walk out to go to lunch somebody asks, "hey, can you spare some change so I can catch a bus, or so I can eat or...?"

Just today, I passed this guy walking towards me who asked me if I had any change I could spare. The change I did have was jingling in my pocket, but I politely said "sorry man." I took a few more steps and he yelled. "LIAR! I HEAR IT! YOU DO! YOU DO!" I just replied, "not to spare!" The fucking nerve of these overly persistent bastards.

Next time - I'm gonna say, "Damn! I was gonna ask YOU for some !" And see how they fucking like that shit. (y)

[jackrock]

yeah, at school my friend usually asks me for a buck or so for a slurpee... cause he has a long walk home...wtf? lol
it's the middle of winter man, jeez heh

dammit now i feel like a slurpee :S

[DapperDiverge]

i hate it when people ask for money like that... whether they know me or not!

i'll only loan you money if you need change to use a pay phone or if we were to split something to eat... that's it!!

like i used to hate it when the kids in my old neighborhood would just walk up to me stick out their hands like i owned them something... i was like excuse me??? what do i look like, an ATM?? you need money go bother your mama... and if your mama ain't going to give it to you, just steal like you always do!!

bitches :mad:

[CrankItUp!]

Yeah, and the shitheads just don't care how fucking annoying they are ! :mad:

Their like "gimme! gimme! gimme!" all the time like the public owes them something just for being cockroaches to society.

So fuck those who take advantage constantly and aren't in a realistic hardship, like many who are but feel degraded by accepting charity or help from anyone.

[b i o n i c]

i surprised the shit outta a homeless dude once when he caught me drunk and i gave him a hunnerd dollar bill.

[CrankItUp!]

Well, at least you didn't give him a real $100 bill...and please say that the "hunnerd dollar bill" you gave while drunk was Monopoly play money or some shit.

[b i o n i c]

Well, at least you didn't give him a real $100 bill...and please say that the "hunnerd dollar bill" you gave while drunk was Monopoly play money or some shit.

no it was a real one and it felt great to give away

[CrankItUp!]

Dude - if you still have money fallin outta your ass nowadays, just Pm me and I'll give you the proper address to giveaway another. (y)

[Tzar]

i fucking hate bums that ask for money. and the thing is they always ask me when i really don't have any money, and then they start pleading and saying their *insertrelativehere* is in hospital. fuck off, cunt, i really don't have any money.

[hardnox71]

I worked in a place in Center City where there were tons of Crack-heads and Alchies. It was right next to a Liquor Store too. I had to walk past a dozen of these losers on a daily basis on my way to the bank with a sack full o' money to make the daily deposit!

I got to the point where I'd make these fuckers perform for my change.

Tell a joke, do a stupid human trick, do a dance,...something. Winner got all the change in my pocket that day.

Eventually they quit bothering me for the change and advanced to trying to sell me whatever the had stolen that day.
What's the point? You get off on making people demean themselves by jumping through your hoops? I'm not sticking up for these people because it is annoying to walk down the street and have someone ask you for shit every half a block but getting your kicks by 'making these fuckers perform' for your change is pretty low. Especially since you know they are gonna do it because they are addicted. If you wanted to give them change then just give them the change and be done with it. If you wanted them to stop asking you for money then say, "Sorry, man, can't help you. Stop asking me for shit." It's that simple. Just because someone is down and out and addicted and what have you doesn't make them your puppet.

Sometimes if someone asks me for money to get something to eat I will go and buy them something to eat myself. But I never hand over money on the street.

[b i o n i c]

i had a bunch that day and i put myself in the shoes of this hopeless, aimless, everythingless dude and thought it would make his day, week, month

id probably just end up spending it on booze, smokes, clothes, eating out whatever

[hardnox71]

i had a bunch that day and i put myself in the shoes of this hopeless, aimless, everythingless dude and thought it would make his day, week, month

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that if that is what you wanted to do. But when you gave him the money did you make him hop on one foot? Did you make him do the electric slide? Did you ask him to do anything whatsoever to demean himself even moreso than he already was by being on the street asking for money? No. You just gave it to him. That's the point I was trying to make. If you're gonna give then just give and go.

I was simply stating that I personally don't hand over money because nine times out of ten it will go to an addiction and having dealt with my own addictions in the past I refuse to enable others. I will buy someone food, clothes if I can and it's really needed. But other than that, I can't do nothing for ya' man.

[b i o n i c]

it started out out because it was pouring rain at rockefeller center and we got caught under the same awning (sp?) we talked for a while and i asked him how he got to nyc. what happened. his story was so sorry that i couldnt cross the soul and no do something

[hardnox71]

it started out out because it was pouring rain at rockefeller center and we got caught under the same awning (sp?) we talked for a while and i asked him how he got to nyc. what happened. his story was so sorry that i couldnt cross the soul and no do something
I can feel that. Nothing wrong with it. I just had a hard time trying to figure out where someone is at intellectually and morally when they feel the need to "make these fuckers perform for my money."

Blah.

[TurdBerglar]

all the beggers are drawn to me becuase im a honkey in ghettoville.

[hardnox71]

all the beggers are drawn to me becuase im a honkey in ghettoville.
It's an automatic assumption that young white people have money. Not that you don't, I'm just saying that's why you zeroed in on.

[TurdBerglar]

well no shit


and they think im an lost or something

[b i o n i c]

why cant there be big boobied round coolied biddies waiting to shake their asses for a dollar ?

[hardnox71]

why cant there be big boobied round coolied biddies waiting to shake their asses for a dollar ?
There are but unfortunately most of the places that they hang out in don't allow full nudity and the fucking beers are seven dollars!

[b i o n i c]

strip clubs dont count. ive never met a strip club i didn't want to kick in the shins

[Sarky Devotchka]

the only guy I give money to is this one guy who sometimes stands outside of walgreens with bulbous cross-eyes. he has a really nice voice and is polite. I mean, with those eyes he's probably had a pretty shitty life. otherwise, I get asked for money about 5 times a day and I'd be broke if I gave it out every time.

[hardnox71]

strip clubs dont count. ive never met a strip club i didn't want to kick in the shins

I never met a strip club that I could stay in for more than a half hour, forty-five minutes tops. They bore the shit out of me and they are unbelieveably expensive. Going to a strip club is nothing but an exercise in frustration. It's like taking a kid to Disneyland and making him sit in the car, ya' know? You can see what you want but you can't have it. I guess there are some clubs where you can have it, but, I mean, do you really want it?

Blech.

[Sarky Devotchka]

sometimes I want to give money to the people that sit outside stores downtown with signs. the other day I was downtown and this lady was sitting in front of Burberry with a cardboard sign and it was just so sad to think that if the people that shopped there just didn't buy a stupid plaid scarf for 400 bucks, they could put it towards something that would really help society instead. stupid crapping Burberry.

[b i o n i c]

the only guy I give money to is this one guy who sometimes stands outside of walgreens with bulbous cross-eyes. he has a really nice voice and is polite. I mean, with those eyes he's probably had a pretty shitty life. otherwise, I get asked for money about 5 times a day and I'd be broke if I gave it out every time.


save it up and give it out $5 bills at a time. lotta smiles that way

[b i o n i c]

if the people that shopped there just didn't buy a stupid plaid scarf for 400 bucks, they could put it towards something that would really help society instead. stupid crapping Burberry.


seriously

[b i o n i c]

I never met a strip club that I could stay in for more than a half hour, forty-five minutes tops. They bore the shit out of me and they are unbelieveably expensive. Going to a strip club is nothing but an exercise in frustration. It's like taking a kid to Disneyland and making him sit in the car, ya' know? You can see what you want but you can't have it. I guess there are some clubs where you can have it, but, I mean, do you really want it?

Blech.


strip clubs blow so hard. i dont even want any of the candy in that window... *snaps in z shape*

[Monsieur Decuts]

I had to send one of the bums to jail last weekend because he threatened to kill me because I wouldn't let him touch my puppy. Said he was going to shoot me lol. I said have a nice night in jail dumpster fuck.

Seattle is crawling with these people and no one does a thing about it, they want to be all liberal about it...I can understand that to a point, but its just overkill here.

[hardnox71]

I had to send one of the bums to jail last weekend because he threatened to kill me because I wouldn't let him touch my puppy. Said he was going to shoot me lol. I said have a nice night in jail dumpster fuck.

Seattle is crawling with these people and no one does a thing about it, they want to be all liberal about it...I can understand that to a point, but its just overkill here.
When it comes to verbal or potential physical abuse then do what you gotta do. I would. There is no reason anyone should have to take shit from some homeless addict on the street because of the differences in choices that both people have made in their lives.

I remeber seeing something on cable about four or five years ago about how Seattle is supposedly a huge drop off for teen runaways and addicts. It looked like a mess.

[discopants]

Today I'd like to walk through Manchester without being hassled for fucking money by some fucking tramp cunt or some tin shaking tosspot who wants to save all the children in mother fucking Africa.

[ms.peachy]

When I first moved to London, I was absolutely shocked at how many panhandlers there are here who are young, white, and reasonably physically fit.

I mean, I moved here from New York City, so it's not like I wasn't used to having people ask me for money. But what I was used to was the fact that it was generally slightly older people, men and women who had 'slipped thorugh the cracks', who probably have some sort of mental health issues that really need sorting but aren't properly addressed by the system, etc. No doubt many of them had addictions, but the distinct impression I have is that they've been struggling with long-term "down and out" issues for some time.

In London though, forget it - it's virtually all young people, maybe 17-30 on average I'd say, mostly junkies and hardcore boozers. What's really odd here is that for some reason it's almost seen as like a viable career choice or something. Very weird.

[Hiebz]

beggers generally don't bother me too much, but they can certainly be annoying at times. But what was worse was when I was in Georgia (US - above Florida) - sometimes there would be the beggars that would knock on the door and have a huge story layed out about a fight with the misses and needing money for a bus pass to another nearby town to stay at a friends house ... blah blah blah. I'd experienced beggars, but not like that before (or since). And, I worked as a volunteer = no dough. So, sometimes I would give away some rice. mmm rice.

one time, however, I went with the guy to the bus station and bought him the ticket. Not too long before that my bicycle was stolen. He directed me by the house where it was sitting on the porch. So, I didn't have to buy another bike because I took a chance on helping someone out.

yes, I realize that may be part of the scam, but in any case if I hadn't helped out, I still would have had to find a new biKe;

[Freebasser]

There's a guy in the subway under the ringroad in Wolvo who does nothing but sit there every day at lunch time and ask people for money.

If you ignore him he insults you and he keeps a dog by his side and has the cheek to ask people to give him money for dog-food. EAT THE FUCKING DOG!

He also looks remarkably well-kempt considering his supposed homelessness.

[ericlee]

For me, they've got to have some kind of gimmick for my change. They need to play guitar or something or just come straight and say "I need to buy alcohol."

It's the motherfuckers that lie that I hate. I had one while in Cincy, he was in a nice suit and tie and really looked liget. He came to me and said his car was stranded and he needed money for some gas and then he showed me his keys. I gave him a 5 spot and I felt good I could help. Well, 2 days later, same place, there he was again and he came to me and before he could say anything, I asked him if he could spare me some change cause my car was broke down.

I also hate the Nam "vets". I shut them down quickly because for one, I don't know if they are lying and for another thing, my pops was in Nam and suffered alot but he was never ever in the streets begging for change.

[ms.peachy]

Ha, I just remembered this one time my friend Sue and I were getting into her car in NYc and this guy comes shuffling across the street and asks us for money "to get a little something to eat." He was holding a slice of pizza in his hand at the time. So Sue says "Dude. You're eating right now." And the guy looks at the pizza in his hand like, omigod, where did that come from? And then he says "Well uh yeah but I'll probably get hungry again later." Sue says, "OK well, ask me again later then" and we drove away.

[ericlee]

I also had one guy come up to me while I was in my car getting ready to back out and I couldn't really see him because it was dark outside. He got close enough for me to glance and I saw it, he was missing a fuckin eye and there was this huge vacant eyesocket staring right at me.

I just freaked the fuck out and peeled out of the parking lot in reverse.

China has many beggers but they all either play the old traditonal guitar or they really do have some problems. I offer them change with no problem. They see me from miles away though and they snap to attention when I come walking by.

[enree erzweglle]

There are ordinances that some cities use to regulate panhandling. Where I live, they cracked down on it in November. It's made a difference, but it doesn't solve the underlying problem.

With the crackdown, panhandlers can't approach people at night. And they have to be so far from ATMs, restaurants, food vendors, churches, and bus stops. The bill also outlaws "aggressive panhandling" and any kind of solicitation that interferes with traffic. I'm not sure what the penalties are.

This challenges me. I usually rely on an instinct to tell me what to do with a particular person. And I try to acknowledge them when I see them, regardless of whether/not I plan to give money to them. So often, they get mocked or ignored. God, people don't even try to hide the fact that they're laughing at them. :(

I admit that the urge is strong sometimes to suddenly have to hunt for something in my knapsack so that I don't have to make eye contact or I'll want to cross the street to avoid their questions or possibly a confrontation. I try not to do that and try to remember that they must be lonely or scared or hurting in some way, and that a smile or a greeting might make a difference to them.

I stopped to talk to a homeless woman a month or so back and right in the middle of the conversation, it's like it dawned on her that she was talking to someone, just talking, and she got teary and said something about how much it meant to her to do that, just talk.

I cannot imagine living on the streets. I don't care what the circumstances are, what led a person to be in that situation.

[ms.peachy]

I cannot imagine living on the streets. I don't care what the circumstances are, what led a person to be in that situation.
In general I agree with you enree; however as I said here in London what I found most shocking was that it doesn't seem like the people I see have "ended up" here as a last ditch option; these are young, fit people who seem to be exercising it as a lifestyle option and consider it a "right" to choose to live this way. It's a mentality that I just can't get my head around. I'm thinking, if I was a 23 year old white guy, with two arms and two legs and a strong back, I'd be pretty fucking emabarassed to sit on my ass next to an ATM all day asking people for money. Their counter argument seems to be "Hey, isn't it better that I beg for money to support my habit instead of just robbing people?" Like, getting sorted and getting a job just isn't an option, apparently.

[enree erzweglle]

In general I agree with you enree; however as I said here in London what I found most shocking was that it doesn't seem like the people I see have "ended up" here as a last ditch option; these are young, fit people who seem to be exercising it as a lifestyle option and consider it a "right" to choose to live this way. It's a mentality that I just can't get my head around. I'm thinking, if I was a 23 year old white guy, with two arms and two legs and a strong back, I'd be pretty fucking emabarassed to sit on my ass next to an ATM all day asking people for money. Their counter argument seems to be "Hey, isn't it better that I beg for money to support my habit instead of just robbing people?" Like, getting sorted and getting a job just isn't an option, apparently.I haven't seen that here yet and it must be a strange thing when you do see it. I honestly don't think I've ever seen anyone <40 who panhandled. (But the homeless came here long after most other cities had them already...so it's probably just a matter of time.)

I probably wouldn't get much of an urge to give money to someone who appears to be young and able. The occasional one, maybe, you can kind of reason that there are things happening there that aren't totally obvious. But if it's a trend, that's not good.

This whole thing perplexes me.

[Qdrop]

[He'd] probably just end up spending it on booze, smokes, clothes, eating out whatever

then how can you feel good about giving it to him?

who did you help? anyone?

[Qdrop]

make no mistake...
when you give money to a beggar.....you are buying them drugs and/or alcohol.

don't lie to yourself. don't rationalize it. don't pretend that i'm just stereotyping all beggars.

KNOW that when you give money to a beggar, you are enabling themselves to further thier predicament.

All homeless know where to go for free food or shelter (granted, shelters are often worse than the streets)....
they don't need your money for food.
they need it for alcohol and/or drugs.

[b i o n i c]

yes, it was a temporary relief. i know he didnt go out multiply the money in the stock market or find a place to live with it. maybe it made him question his hopelessness? i feel that hope (coupled with other things) is the foundation of rising above adversity.


wait a sec... you edited my I to HE. so he'd be able to go out and buy some smokes or some beer or some food. eh. i hope he enjoyed it

[Qdrop]

yes, it was a temporary relief. relief from what? he went out and got wasted on your dime.
i know he didnt go out multiply the money in the stock market or find a place to live with it. yet you gave it to him anyway.

maybe it made him question his hopelessness? yeah, he was probably reflecting deeply when lifted that crack pipe up to his lips.
rather then question his own predicament, you gave him the means to further avoid it.

i feel that hope (coupled with other things) is the foundation of rising above adversity.
feel-good mantra soundbites don't gloss over the lack of depth in your decision.

[enree erzweglle]

make no mistake...
when you give money to a beggar.....you are buying them drugs and/or alcohol.

don't lie to yourself. don't rationalize it. don't pretend that i'm just stereotyping all beggars.

KNOW that when you give money to a beggar, you are enabling themselves to further thier predicament.

All homeless know where to go for free food or shelter (granted, shelters are often worse than the streets)....
they don't need your money for food.
they need it for alcohol and/or drugs.I know this. I totally understand that the odds of them doing what they say they're going to do with the money--those odds are slim to nil. But if I have an instinct to help someone, I'll do it and leave it at that. That instinct doesn't always come to me, but when it does, I listen to it.

[b i o n i c]

id just as likely be contributing to his status quo by just walking away. id rather do it in a way that gives the dude a little faith in his fellow man.

[Qdrop]

But if I have an instinct to help someone, I'll do it and leave it at that. That instinct doesn't always come to me, but when it does, I listen to it.
i'm certainly not questioning that.

the point i'm making is that you are NOT helping them when you give them money.

if the instinct to help comes to you, then you should actually help them, not enable them to further hurt themselves.

wouldn't you agree?

[ms.peachy]

But if I have an instinct to help someone, I'll do it and leave it at that. That instinct doesn't always come to me, but when it does, I listen to it.
Yeah I understand that.

A week or so ago, I was on the bus and a woman got on and sat next to me. She looked to be in her mid-40's maybe, possibly younger but 'hardened', you know what I mean... Anyway she had on clean but rather tatty clothes, a jacket that was several sizes too big; her hair was a bit greasy and pulled back, and she had a couple of small faded bruises on her cheek. As she sat there I realised she was crying quietly. She pulled a folded up paper out of her pocket and I could see it was from a church, that listed where other area churches that ran beds for the night and hot meals and on what days etc were, and where you could get donated clothes etc. So I don't know if she was entirely homeless or what but she just seemed like a woman who was in a bad situation. So when I went to get off, I pressed a tenner into her hand and just said "please take care of yourself" and left. I felt kind of odd after, because I didn't want to embarass her of make her feel 'less' than me somehow (like I was pitying her), but I just felt like I wanted to do something nice for her and I couldn't think what else to do.

[Qdrop]

id rather do it in a way that gives the dude a little faith in his fellow man.

a little faith in his fellow man?

you mean faith that he can totally use people like you for a free high?


you are making this painfully obvious that you gave this money away, not for purely altruistic purpose....but just to float your own ego and sense of self worth.

and if it was truly altruistic, you wouldn't need to tell anyone about it, would you?

[b i o n i c]

a little faith in his fellow man?

you mean faith that he can totally use people like you for a free high?

you are making this painfully obvious that you gave this money away, not for purely altruistic purpose....but just to float your own ego and sense of self worth.

and if it was truly altruistic, you wouldn't need to tell anyone about it, would you?


you never asked what kind of conversation i had with the guy. he wasnt a druggie. yeah im a dick and i contributed to this dude's od and im a jerk for telling people about the time i tried to help someone out.

[enree erzweglle]

i'm certainly not questioning that.

the point i'm making is that you are NOT helping them when you give them money.

if the instinct to help comes to you, then you should actually help them, not enable them to further hurt themselves.

wouldn't you agree?I agree, absolutely, and I do think I could be helping them. When I do it, it isn't about money--I know that they'll probably use that money in not so great a way.

What it's about, to me, is paying attention to an instinct (not ignoring it). It's also about knowing that there's a chance that what reaches them is something intangible--maybe warmth that results from being on the receiving end of an act of kindness.

Maybe some other something comes from that act. I don't know.

I don't question why I have the instinct to help, but I trust that in some way, good will come from it. I might not ever know what that good is, but I trust that it'll happen.

Even if they turn that money right around and into something that's inarguably a bad thing, I believe that what is at play is maybe not entirely about cash.

[Qdrop]

you never asked what kind of conversation i had with the guy. he wasnt a druggie. oh? he just "fell on bad times" huh? laid off from work? a real "one of a kind" story?

yeah im a dick and i contributed to this dude's od agreed.

and im a jerk for telling people about the time i tried to help someone out. possibley.

[b i o n i c]

dude. come on.

[Qdrop]

I agree, absolutely, and I do think I could be helping them. When I do it, it isn't about money--I know that they'll probably use that money in not so great a way.

What it's about, to me, is paying attention to an instinct (not ignoring it). It's also about knowing that there's a chance that what reaches them is something intangible--maybe warmth that results from being on the receiving end of an act of kindness.

Maybe some other something comes from that act. I don't know.

I don't question why I have the instinct to help, but I trust that in some way, good will come from it. I might not ever know what that good is, but I trust that it'll happen.

Even if they turn that money right around and into something that's inarguably a bad thing, I believe that what is at play is maybe not entirely about cash.

while you intentions are probably in the right place....you, too, seem to be doing this more for yourself then for the homeless person. and you seem to be romanticizing it like many others as well.

ah well....it's your money, it's your decision.

[Qdrop]

dude. come on.

dude. where we goin?

[b i o n i c]

we're going to the atm to make you take some cash out and give it to the smelliest, dirtiest, most hopeless homeless dude we can find

[enree erzweglle]

while you intentions are probably in the right place....you, too, seem to be doing this more for yourself then for the homeless person. and you seem to be romanticizing it like many others as well.

ah well....it's your money, it's your decision.
Actually, I don't question it (the instinct). I've taught myself not to do that.

And If I did do this for myself--if I gave to somehow bolster my own ego--then I'd give indiscriminately--it's MUCH easier to give just to avoid a confrontation with a homeless person. Instead, I rely on this instinct and let the rest go.

Some things I'm better at than other things and this is one of the things I'm okay at. I can let that go because I trust that the instinct is coming from a good place, so good will eventually come from it. You can take it or leave it, I'm kind of telling you that I've worked on this for probably 25 years and have gotten a little comfortable with it. :)

[CrankItUp!]

beggers generally don't bother me too much, but they can certainly be annoying at times. But what was worse was when I was in Georgia (US - above Florida) - sometimes there would be the beggars that would knock on the door and have a huge story layed out about a fight with the misses and needing money for a bus pass to another nearby town to stay at a friends house ... blah blah blah. I'd experienced beggars, but not like that before (or since). And, I worked as a volunteer = no dough. So, sometimes I would give away some rice. mmm rice.

one time, however, I went with the guy to the bus station and bought him the ticket. Not too long before that my bicycle was stolen. He directed me by the house where it was sitting on the porch. So, I didn't have to buy another bike because I took a chance on helping someone out.

yes, I realize that may be part of the scam, but in any case if I hadn't helped out, I still would have had to find a new biKe;

at least you did get your bike back. (y)

[enree erzweglle]

I given money, I'm not ashamed of that. I have even went to a store bought food and water, and gave people that. Whether they ate the food, or used the money to buy other things I try try not to concern myself with what is done. I want to give them a chance to make a better decision. I haven't always taken advantage of my second chances, so I'm not going to expect someone else to either, but I hope that they do.Perfect. Can't argue with that.

Also, sometimes, I think the lesson maybe isn't for the homeless person at all--maybe the lesson is for me.

Like what if seeing this destitute person & his situation, being presented with options--what if that is some second chance that I'm being given to do a right thing or to realize a thing, you know?

[ericlee]

I look at like this.. I still want some gimmick from them. I really don't know where the money is going once it's given to them and don't care. I've been down in the dumps too but haven't begged for money or lived on the streets.

So they will be my puppet? I don't care. I'm working for the government to make my money being their puppet.

Some of you might have read about my work now and how it seems like it's a cake job, yeah, I owe it to myself but it took many years of pain and rebuilding to get the job I have and most of these people can, by the same steps I've taken, rebuild their life. Then again, most can't because of handicaps or disibalities.

It doesn't matter, they're human and I will do my part to help them.

[BangkokB]

I buy them beer. And sometimes drink it with them if alot of people are around so they'll think I have friends

[Kid Presentable]

I beg for money, with me knob hanging out me trousers. (y)

[BangkokB]

I beg for money, with me knob hanging out me trousers. (y)
Put a string on it saying "Pull this to get a rise out of me" (y)

[Kid Presentable]

Put a string on it saying "Pull this to get a rise out of me" (y)

I tie a banner around it that says "If you help me, you will not only reap the personal reward of committing a good deed, you also get to see me pull a string to get a rise out of myself. If that's your cup of tea. If not, maybe we could just talk.".

(y)