"Selling out"

[DroppinScience]

This has been a thread idea I've been wanting to start for awhile, but haven't got around to it 'til now.

All right, what in your opinion constitutes the dreaded term "selling out" for your favorite bands? Is it signing to a major label? Starring in a Pepsi commercial? What?

Personally, while I have no doubt there are bands who have "sold out," I think it's a term that gets thrown around for any given band a lot more times than it's actually happened. It seems like anyone gets tagged a sell-out whenever they gain some form of exposure and/or they change their sound in a direction that's not to the liking of the audience's taste (in other words, they don't like it when their favorite group evolves, I suppose). If it's used like that, then I think that's mighty lame (do you really want your bands sounding exactly the same from album to album?).

And also, let's assume Band x has "sold out." Let me pose another question: is this necessarily a "bad" thing? When there are (often misguided) attempts to debate how one maintains their "authenticity" or "integrity," you're talking as if you can actually separate music from commerce. Like it or not, that's damn near impossible.

I realize this is more of a conundrum to people from the underground/punk variety and such qualms are hardly thought of among the more mainstream side of things, but I'm interested in what anyone's thoughts are, be it from either side of the spectrum. Specific examples are obviously welcome too.

Come on, BBMB, unleash your inner-DIY and Ian MacKaye selves and let's get philosophical. ;)

[Rancid_Beasties]

I think its selling out when a band changes their sound, but not too evolve and keep things fresh, rather to cater to demands from their record companies regarding commercial marketability. Thats not to say that moving to a major record label = selling out. Its just that it increases the likeliness of them selling out because they are under much more pressure.

[DroppinScience]

I think its selling out when a band changes their sound, but not too evolve and keep things fresh, rather to cater to demands from their record companies regarding commercial marketability. Thats not to say that moving to a major record label = selling out. Its just that it increases the likeliness of them selling out because they are under much more pressure.

That point is all well and good, but how do you exactly determine whether the band changed solely as a move to sell more records? How do you know it's not a product of them gradually getting better as artists and it just so happens that the album that gets them platinum sales also happens to be among their best work?

Sometimes bands can end up making their best material (or some of their best) while in so-called "selling out" mode, if we're to assume they are sell-outs (e.g. Sonic Youth, Nirvana, Melvins).

P.S. - And no, I don't deem any of those bands to be sell-outs...

[CrankItUp!]

Marilyn Manson went soft a long time ago ! When I saw him at a packed out show in '94 though - he was fucking incredible.

[Rancid_Beasties]

Okay heres an example of what I'm talking about. The Offspring are an awesome band, in my opinion, who are tainted by the fact that they have sold out. In my opinion, they really should have stopped after Americana (which many see as the point at which they sold out). After that, they became about as punk as sum 41.

This occurred at the exact point "original prankster" came out as a single. Now their sound didnt necessarily change that much, but they began to pump out crap generic stuff. Ever since then all their songs, particularly their lead singles, sound like "pretty fly for a white guy", which although much maligned, has enough merit and originality for me to say that it wasnt the point they sold out.

Why is this a good example? Because they were commercially successful before Conspiracy of One and Splinter, and yet up to that point they had not sold out.

There isnt really a set definition, you have to judge the point at which each band "sold out" separately. Even then its a matter of personal opinion rather than a universally accepted point.

[Ημισκούμπρια]

The problem I have with "selling out", is when bands get so popular, people around you turn into annoying fanboys/fangirls. Still, I'm fine with a band getting more exposure and moving up in the world.

[Tzar]

Q) what is selling out?
A) Load and ReLoad.


OOOOO!! SNAPZ!!

nah.. i reckon the two labels "sold out" and "sell out" are two different things.
i would, personally and it hurts to say this, label Metallica as sell outs; where they've gone totally against what people liked 'em for, but they've never sold out; ie. made music strictly for labels ('cept for maybe a few songs). they still make their own music.

[DroppinScience]

Okay heres an example of what I'm talking about. The Offspring are an awesome band, in my opinion, who are tainted by the fact that they have sold out. In my opinion, they really should have stopped after Americana (which many see as the point at which they sold out). After that, they became about as punk as sum 41.

This occurred at the exact point "original prankster" came out as a single. Now their sound didnt necessarily change that much, but they began to pump out crap generic stuff. Ever since then all their songs, particularly their lead singles, sound like "pretty fly for a white guy", which although much maligned, has enough merit and originality for me to say that it wasnt the point they sold out.

Why is this a good example? Because they were commercially successful before Conspiracy of One and Splinter, and yet up to that point they had not sold out.

There isnt really a set definition, you have to judge the point at which each band "sold out" separately. Even then its a matter of personal opinion rather than a universally accepted point.


Ah, Offspring. Oh yes, those guys "sold out" plenty. But then again, outside of the "Smash" album (which is pretty damn good), they were never that special to begin with. Just listen to Agent Orange instead.

And basically all those lead singles like "Pretty Fly For A White Guy," "Original Prankster," etc. were just variations of "Come Out And Play."

And even then, "Come Out And Play" was a glorified rip-off of Agent Orange's "Bloodstains" anyways.

[yeahwho]

Heres what I think. (http://diymedia.net/audio/mp3/sundaygreedysunday.mp3)

[Tzar]

nah.. i reckon the two labels "sold out" and "sell out" are two different things.
i would, personally and it hurts to say this, label Metallica as sell outs; where they've gone totally against what people liked 'em for, but they've never sold out; ie. made music strictly for labels ('cept for maybe a few songs). they still make their own music.
this is just ridiculous - forget i ever said this. doesn't make any sense at all.

[Documad]

Heres what I think. (http://diymedia.net/audio/mp3/sundaygreedysunday.mp3)
If I forward that to my friend, she will probably have a heart attack. :p

I agree with RancidBeasties' definition.

The tricky thing is that it depends upon the band and what they once stood for. I have different rules for the bands that meant something to me, or pretended to mean something.

I remember thinking that The Clash sold out when they put did the Rock the Casbah video, opened for the Who, and headlined at the US Festival. Joe Strummer agreed with me. But in retrospect, that was nothing.

I figured that REM would be sell outs when they signed with Warners, but they actually made another two good albums after that. I guess they didn't change the music to fit the big label. The downside was that they played such bid venues I couldn't stand seeing them anymore. They suck as an arena band.

Oh, and Bruce Springsteen playing stadiums circa 1985.

[DroppinScience]

I remember thinking that The Clash sold out when they put did the Rock the Casbah video, opened for the Who, and headlined at the US Festival. Joe Strummer agreed with me. But in retrospect, that was nothing.

If that was selling out, they were still pretty kick-ass at the time, so whatevah.

Nevertheless, what I found interesting was hearing people say how The Clash never ever compromised and stood to their punk roots, etc. around the time Joe Strummer died. I guess they completely forgot about "Should I Stay Or Should I Go" being used for a Levi's commercial or "London Calling" for a Jaguar commercial.

Couple that with the fact they were signed to a major label from the get-go (as was the case for much of the classic punk rockers of the era). I guess it's easier to "forgive" when you die or something...

So, in a nutshell, all these paradoxes and double-standards that are implemented when we discuss "authenticity" or "selling out" really make me wish the whole selling out term should just be abolished altogether. If it ever meant something to sell out, it sure means NOTHING today.

[Documad]

I don't know how to classify it, but I do think more of groups who don't sell their music for commercials. There's a big difference between Sleater-Kinney and Madonna.

[DroppinScience]

I don't know how to classify it, but I do think more of groups who don't sell their music for commercials. There's a big difference between Sleater-Kinney and Madonna.

Then why isn't your avatar of Sleater-Kinney? ;)

Anyways, I think I'd rather just say "jumped the shark" instead of "sell out" to denote an artist has now started sucking. One man's sell outs are another man's saviors anyway.

So yeah, I hereby ban the use of the word sell-out.

[The Notorious LOL]

its a term used by douchebag elitists that just assume their favorite musicians should figure out some way to live off their shitty advances and small cut of their album sales.

[yeahwho]

God, what a mess, on the ladder of success
Where you take one step and miss the whole first rung
Dreams unfulfilled, graduate unskilled

..........at one time (http://youtube.com/watch?v=_tZO94Mhfzk&search=bastards%20of%20the%20young#comment)

The ones who love us best are the ones we'll lay to rest
And visit their graves on holidays at best
The ones who love us least are the ones we'll die to please
If it's any consolation, I don't begin to understand them

[dave790]

going against your ethos/ideals for the sake of profit...I can think of a few bands.

[Kid Presentable]

^^^ Yeah, it's the second that the representative of a major label you just signed with comes into the studio and "makes suggestions" and you listen.

[checkyourprez]

going against your ethos/ideals for the sake of profit...I can think of a few bands.


that.

a lot of stuff dealing with mtv, doing adds are sellout-ish to me (unless its something you really endorce and use, and arent just doing it for the money).

[ms.peachy]

God, what a mess, on the ladder of success
Where you take one step and miss the whole first rung
Dreams unfulfilled, graduate unskilled

..........at one time (http://youtube.com/watch?v=_tZO94Mhfzk&search=bastards%20of%20the%20young#comment)

The ones who love us best are the ones we'll lay to rest
And visit their graves on holidays at best
The ones who love us least are the ones we'll die to please
If it's any consolation, I don't begin to understand them
I tend to think that this would have been a better choice for this discussion:

Do we give it up? (I don't know)
Should we give it hell? (I don't know)
Are you makin' a fortune? (I don't know)
Or don't you wanna tell? (I don't know)
Should we give it up? (I don't know)
Or hang around some more? (I don't know)
Should we buy some beer? (I don't know)
Can I use your hairspray?

One foot in the door, the other foot in the gutter
The sweet smell that you adore, yeah I think I'd rather smother.

[abcdefz]

I tend to think that this would have been a better choice for this discussion:

Do we give it up? (I don't know)
Should we give it hell? (I don't know)
Are you makin' a fortune? (I don't know)
Or don't you wanna tell? (I don't know)
Should we give it up? (I don't know)
Or hang around some more? (I don't know)
Should we buy some beer? (I don't know)
Can I use your hairspray?

One foot in the door, the other foot in the gutter
The sweet smell that you adore, yeah I think I'd rather smother.



The Replacements! :D