9/11 cover up....revisited.

[Qdrop]

Let's all watch this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PWgSaBT9hNU


and then revisit this debate.

come on, it'll be fun!

[paulb]

i watched about 20min of that... i dont really know how if it had explosives in it would change anything today. Its just kinda sad that this actually happened. Since i was living in Peru at the time, I didnt think about it much, ok, buildings went down, some people died...but when u see the testimonials from the survivors it kinda feels like you were there, and it makes it more of real scene that it is a tragedy.

[EN[i]GMA]

Let's all watch this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PWgSaBT9hNU


and then revisit this debate.

come on, it'll be fun!

Not tempting enough to tear me away from my Primal Scream.

[kaiser soze]

what's your thoughts qdrop

[paulb]

what's your thoughts qdrop



who really cares?

[kaiser soze]

I'm curious, I do believe his argument before was that was not a controlled demolition

[D_Raay]

Let's all watch this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PWgSaBT9hNU


and then revisit this debate.

come on, it'll be fun!
Why? You have your side and won't be swayed despite claiming you are actually open-minded.

[D_Raay]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=loose+change&pr=goog-sl

[Justin]

I say anything is possible with our government.

I hope not.

Who cares?...the families that lost loved ones during the attacks. I think they deserve the truth if indeed their is a cover up.

[D_Raay]

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.... The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself.... intelligence agencies in the U.S., which require billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the government every year. This [funding issue] was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Usama and Taleban and then this incident happened. You see, the Bush Administration approved a budget of 40 billion dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds and want to exert their importance. Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the U.S. secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will be diminished. The people in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was made a scapegoat."-- Osama Bin Laden in an interview published in Ummat Karachi, on 28 September 2001, although not widely reported at the time

[chromium05]

Several times I have heard and read about Bin Ladens claims to have absolutely no ties whatsoever to 9-11.

When I read that piece, I remebered the film "The Usual Suspects". You've all seen it. Round up a bunch of guys, feed them stories, tell them they are doing a job for some powerful individual whom they never meet or speak to (only the middleman) and watch them go and unwittingly sacrifice themselves based on 1 mans bullshit.

Replace the "usual suspects" with a few muslim fella's, Bin Laden becomes the mythical Kaiser Soze character and the CIA become Kobayashi - fanning bin ladens notoriety and feeding shit and a method to an unsuspecting but thoroughly convinced bunch of young muslims who then go and do the governments dirty work (or at least become the scapegoats/ public face)

[Qdrop]

I'm curious, I do believe his argument before was that was not a controlled demolition

i don't believe that the pentagon attack was done by a missile or drone plane.

as far as the Towers and building 7, i have alot of questions that the 9/11 commission did not answer, or answer effectively.

there is alot of science and engineering opinion that those planes could not have taken those towers down on thier own.
and there were some glaring mistakes on the 9/11 commission's report on the structure of the towers which refutes thier claims....

still, i just can't get my mind around how any entity could orchestrate an inside job of this magnitude without it being exposed.
the logistics of the government sneaking into that building and setting up explosives...on top of coordinating this multi-plane attack...
the manpower needed, the virtual impossible amount of secrecy involved for such a clandestine operation with THAT MANY PEOPLE would just be impossible.
the logistics are nearly incomprehensible.

and for what? why collapse the buildings? why wouldn't the planes be enough?
why virtually TRIPLE the operation logistics and TRIPLE the chance of info leak...just to add some more shock&awe?
that doesn't make sense.
why isn't anyone realizing this?

[Qdrop]

Why? You have your side and won't be swayed despite claiming you are actually open-minded.

just show me something plausible....
that's all.

don't give me a theory unless you can explain it's rationale and logistics down to the near detail...
otherwise, you're nothing more than an irresponsible gossip-monger.

[Qdrop]

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.... The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself.... intelligence agencies in the U.S., which require billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the government every year. This [funding issue] was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Usama and Taleban and then this incident happened. You see, the Bush Administration approved a budget of 40 billion dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds and want to exert their importance. Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the U.S. secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will be diminished. The people in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was made a scapegoat."-- Osama Bin Laden in an interview published in Ummat Karachi, on 28 September 2001, although not widely reported at the time

but we've all SEEN the video produced by bin laden and his crew in that little cave, where they talk about the attack and the plan in detail...and talk about "praising allah" when they saw the planes hit....and when the towers collapsed.
they commented on how they didn't expect the towers to fall, but felt blessed that they did.
you can SEE bin laden's lips moving, saying these things...and his crew. you can hear them talking. the translations on those have never been countered.

so...?
was it all CGI, D?

[D_Raay]

but we've all SEEN the video produced by bin laden and his crew in that little cave, where they talk about the attack and the plan in detail...and talk about "praising allah" when they saw the planes hit....and when the towers collapsed.
they commented on how they didn't expect the towers to fall, but felt blessed that they did.
you can SEE bin laden's lips moving, saying these things...and his crew. you can hear them talking. the translations on those have never been countered.

so...?
was it all CGI, D?
If you did indeed see that video, it would only raise more questions for you. Why the poor video quality? Hardly seems likely for a millionaire who wanted us to know it was him. Why did he not look like Bin Laden except for the beard? Why was he writing something in the video with his right hand when the FBI lists him as being LEFT-handed?

Did you know that it has been published 2 different times that Bin Laden is dead in Arabic newspapers?

[EN[i]GMA]

What I don't understand is the payoff.

Go through all this plot for what? What was gained? What was the purpose? The motive?

Why?

I've not yet heard a good reason.

[Qdrop]

Why the poor video quality? because they're in a cave with poor lighting?

Hardly seems likely for a millionaire who wanted us to know it was him. specious.

Why did he not look like Bin Laden except for the beard? looked like him to me.
pure opinion.

Did you know that it has been published 2 different times that Bin Laden is dead in Arabic newspapers? yeah, newspapers never get anything wrong.

[Qdrop]

GMA']What I don't understand is the payoff.

Go through all this plot for what? What was gained? What was the purpose? The motive?

Why?

I've not yet heard a good reason.

agreed.

they inherited an un-winnable war from all of this. and Presidential approval ratings in the 30%tile....

[D_Raay]

GMA']What I don't understand is the payoff.

Go through all this plot for what? What was gained? What was the purpose? The motive?

Why?

I've not yet heard a good reason.
The Project for the New American Century wrote that their goals would be require a revolutionary type effort UNLESS a new Pearl Harbor were to happen.
You of course must know who some of their members are.

[kaiser soze]

GMA']What I don't understand is the payoff.

Go through all this plot for what? What was gained? What was the purpose? The motive?

Why?

I've not yet heard a good reason.

maybe here is one answer to why

PNAC

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

[D_Raay]

A videotape purportedly showing Osama bin Laden confessing to the 9/11 attacks was made public on December 13, 2001:
The tape bore a label indicating it was made on November 9. Administration officials wouldn't reveal exactly how or when they got it, except to say it was found in a house in Jalalabad after anti-Taliban forces moved in.

The videotape was supposedly physically located.
The size of a standard VHS videotape is 7.5 inches wide by 4.2 inches deep by 1 inch high - if you look in a video cabinet you'll see they're not very big. The satellite photograph on the right shows Jalalabad - it is very big and it contains a lot of buildings (not all single storey).

Don't you find it somewhat fortuitous that a very small video tape of Osama confessing to the 9/11 attacks was found in this very big city? Were squads of video watchers sent in to view every tape found just in case one showed Osama confessing?

Here's what was said of the "lucky find":

"For those who see this tape, they'll realise that not only is he guilty of incredible murder, he has no conscience and no soul, that he represents the worst of civilisation," said President George W Bush.

US Senator Ron Wyden, who has also seen the tape, says he hopes it will remove suspicions in countries such as Pakistan that the 11 September attacks were an Israeli plot aimed at drawing the US into a war with Islamic countries.

The video was very effective in diverting media attention away from the deportation of five Israelis who danced as the twin towers burned - "Osama" certainly picks his moments to appear.

A German TV show found that the White House's translation of the video was inaccurate and "manipulative". Bin Laden even praised two live 'hijackers' - Wail M. Alshehri and Salem Alhazmi. Why didn't he know the names of hijackers he personally chose?

The quality of the video was very poor and the authenticity of the tape was questioned. This annoyed President Bush:

"It is preposterous for anybody to think that this tape is doctored," he said during a brief photo opportunity with the prime minister of Thailand. "That's just a feeble excuse to provide weak support for an incredibly evil man."

Osama wears a ring on his right hand which does not appear on other confirmed photos of Osama. Another man is seen wearing a large gold ring in the video. Since the wearing of gold rings is forbidden by Islam it shows neither he nor Osama has any devotion to this faith.

On December 27, 2001, a second video containing the pale skinned and very real Osama was broadcast on al Jazeera. The tape was reportedly made on November 19, 2001 - that's ten days after the "lucky find" tape was reportedly made. Are we supposed to believe that Osama's skin, hair and beard changed color in ten days?

The broadcast of the tape caught the US government completely off-guard:
The recording was dismissed by the Bush administration ... as sick propaganda possibly designed to mask the fact the al-Qa'eda leader was already dead. "He could have made the video and then ordered that it be released in the event of his death," said one White House aide.

This was a very telling response.

Also, his comments caused quite a stir because because they contradicted the "confession" video:
American officials argued that bin Laden's frequent references to US support for Israel were a bogus justification for his terrorism because in the "dinner party" tape of a private conversation there was no mention of the Middle East.

This is very odd indeed because in bin Laden's September 28, 2001 denial of involvement in the 9/11 attacks he had plenty to say about the US and Israel:
This system is totally in control of the American-Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States. It is clear that the American people are themselves the slaves of the Jews and are forced to live according to the principles and laws laid by them. So, the punishment should reach Israel. In fact, it is Israel, which is giving a blood bath to innocent Muslims and the U.S. is not uttering a single word.

And his views were the same in 1998:

"We say to the Americans as people and to American mothers, if they cherish their lives and if they cherish their sons, they must elect an American patriotic government that caters to their interests, not the interests of the Jews."

Not only do the real Osama and the "lucky find" Osama look totally different, they also write with different hands and have different faiths and priorities.

Even hard line secular Pakistanis were unconvinced by the released bin Laden video tape. Iqbal Haider, a former senator from the party of ousted prime minister Benazir Bhutto, said he found it hard to believe that bin Laden would allow himself to be filmed confessing to the crime. "It is hard to believe that a man who masterminds the September attacks with such secrecy and finesse could be that stupid and imprudent," he said. "I hate Osama and the Taliban because they inflicted incalculable damage on Muslims ... but it is hard to digest that he can be such a fool."

[kaiser soze]

Marvin Bush, the little brother of GWB was on the board for security for the WTC

up to the day the towers fell...

Why hasn't he been interviewed?

unfortunately I'm suspicious, hundreds of physicists cannot be wrong

if so, why do they have doctorates?

[EN[i]GMA]

The Project for the New American Century wrote that their goals would be require a revolutionary type effort UNLESS a new Pearl Harbor were to happen.

Which is exactly what I would do if I intended to blow up a building; announce it in my mission statement...


You of course must know who some of their members are.

Yes I do.

[EN[i]GMA]

maybe here is one answer to why

PNAC

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

'Maybe'?

Is this really the best you can do?

[Qdrop]

Don't you find it somewhat fortuitous that a very small video tape of Osama confessing to the 9/11 attacks was found in this very big city? Were squads of video watchers sent in to view every tape found just in case one showed Osama confessing?
not necessarily.
who's to say there weren't 50 copies or more of that video in that city...but that was the only one located.
you can't comment on statistical likliness of finding it, if you don't know the actual amount of tapes available.



The video was very effective in diverting media attention away from the deportation of five Israelis who danced as the twin towers burned - "Osama" certainly picks his moments to appear.
what the hell is this about?


A German TV show found that the White House's translation of the video was inaccurate and "manipulative". Bin Laden even praised two live 'hijackers' - Wail M. Alshehri and Salem Alhazmi. Why didn't he know the names of hijackers he personally chose?
who knows, there could have been last second changes to personel, a contingency plan, etc.
pure speculation.


Osama wears a ring on his right hand which does not appear on other confirmed photos of Osama. Another man is seen wearing a large gold ring in the video. Since the wearing of gold rings is forbidden by Islam it shows neither he nor Osama has any devotion to this faith.
yeah, the actors forgot to take thier wedding rings off.
yeah.


On December 27, 2001, a second video containing the pale skinned and very real Osama was broadcast on al Jazeera. The tape was reportedly made on November 19, 2001 - that's ten days after the "lucky find" tape was reportedly made. Are we supposed to believe that Osama's skin, hair and beard changed color in ten days?
health can swing VERY quickly with kidney disease.
also lighting, camera quality and usage, etc can all alter the appearance in pictures.
why do we always look so shitty in our driver's licenses?

[D_Raay]

not necessarily.
who's to say there weren't 50 copies or more of that video in that city...but that was the only one located.
you can't comment on statistical likliness of finding it, if you don't know the actual amount of tapes available.
No other such tape has been found. If you want to talk statistics, then wouldn't the odds be pretty good if there were "50" more that another would be?

what the hell is this about?

Surely you have heard of the 5 Israeli's found by a Jersey cop dancing and singing around their white van while watching the Towers go down?
The subsequent investigation was quickly shut down -Carl Cameron of Fox news attempted to report on it - and was labeled classified. Blueprints of the towers were found inside the van.

who knows, there could have been last second changes to personel, a contingency plan, etc.
pure speculation.
Speculation so much as you are trying to work it out in your own mind, hence speculation would seem to abound, for all you can do is speculate.

yeah, the actors forgot to take thier wedding rings off.
yeah.
Islamic Law requires that men wear no gold at all. Even gold underneath another metal or gold plate. Only the women are allowed to wear it. It is a direct violation of Islamic law to wear gold.

health can swing VERY quickly with kidney disease.
also lighting, camera quality and usage, etc can all alter the appearance in pictures.
why do we always look so shitty in our driver's licenses?

We are talking about videotape here, not a split second moment in time such as a photograph at a DMV.

And you didn't bother to respond to why he was writing with his right hand.

I have now personally seen quite a bit of video with Osama, and this purported "confession" video is highly suspect at best. If you put this Osama up with 5 other pictures of Osama, you can clearly pick out the one that doesn't match.

[yeahwho]

As far as the twin towers falling, I'm sure the terrorists had no conception of this happening, either had anyone anticipated such an attack would cause so much damage, A lot of different elements contributed to the fall of the World Trade Center Towers, of which this is the main catalyst (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28318-2005Apr5.html).

As far as conspiracy, the most fascinating thing to arise lately is the hotly debated role Zacarias Moussaoui (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=Zacarias+Moussaoui+&btnG=Search+News)may or may not have played with 9/11.

In testimony just yesterday, Zacarias Moussaoui said he was to fly the fifth plane into the White House yet high-ranking al-Qaida captives asserted Tuesday that Zacarias Moussaoui had no role in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

[Ace42X]

looked like him to me.
pure opinion.

How in hell would you know? From the other tapes that have been circulated through the same channels by the same people? Now there's a shocker...

[Echewta]

Kennedy was shot by one lone gunman. I read the governments book on it.

[D_Raay]

A lot of different elements contributed to the fall of the World Trade Center Towers, of which this is the main catalyst.
Doesn't explain why the 4 story lobby looked like a bomb had gone off in it before the collapse.

[yeahwho]

A plane crashed into the building, I'm not an expert on this, but I'm willing to say the seismic waves to the actual foundation of this structure caused more than just a little shaking throughout the whole structure. The potential for building materials to loosen and shake free is excellent, one thing I've noticed is alot of the windows on the main floor remained intact.

I kind of doubt the theory that a pre-planned demolition (http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc__demolition_.html)was involved.

[z-boy]

i heard that canadians planted snakes on the plane, and the last thing that was heard in Manhattan before the world trade center got hit was some pissed of black guy screaming "i want these motherfuckin snakes off the motherfuckin plane", which is strange, considering that Samuel L Jackson circa 2001 was more likely than not in Mace Windu mode, not pissed off bad ass mode ala Pulp Fiction or Jackie Brown, however the fact that Jackson survived is not strange, as it was well documented by screenings of the phantom menace which occurred in 1999 that he had by that stage acquired phenomenal jedi powers

[Jmoney77]

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.... The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself.... intelligence agencies in the U.S., which require billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the government every year. This [funding issue] was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Usama and Taleban and then this incident happened. You see, the Bush Administration approved a budget of 40 billion dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds and want to exert their importance. Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the U.S. secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will be diminished. The people in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was made a scapegoat."-- Osama Bin Laden in an interview published in Ummat Karachi, on 28 September 2001, although not widely reported at the time
Do you have a link to a actual source? id like to see it please

[D_Raay]

Do you have a link to a actual source? id like to see it please
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden

or here http://www.robert-fisk.com/usama_interview_ummat.htm

[D_Raay]

A plane crashed into the building, I'm not an expert on this, but I'm willing to say the seismic waves to the actual foundation of this structure caused more than just a little shaking throughout the whole structure. The potential for building materials to loosen and shake free is excellent, one thing I've noticed is alot of the windows on the main floor remained intact.

I kind of doubt the theory that a pre-planned demolition (http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc__demolition_.html)was involved.
I tend to agree with you yeahwho, however, I am skeptical by nature and especially with the group we have running the show here.

Also, remember that alot of people who actually ARE experts support the pre-planned demolition theory.

[Justin]

I can understand anyone's thoughts on the towers, what i don't understand is the building 7 collapse at 5:30 pm that same day. This building had no damage from planes, 2 small fires. However, it pancaked like the 2 towers did. Very strange, very strange! I don't even think their was a report by the commission on building 7. So what happened pal? Did the building just vanish off the face of this earth?

Is it possible for their to be a detenator operater on the ground to control these "explosions" somehow???

I'm sure anything is possible.

Also, for those of you that live in NYC, are power failures common? Like the power failures that happened in a week's advance of the attack?

[tracky]

I happened to come across this video from another forum earlier this evening, and it sparked my interest again. I have since spent the last couple of hours reading all sorts of articles regarding the collapse of WTC7, the various deals that were made, who was in charge of what, and I'm quite convinced now that 911 was in fact orchestrated by people other than just arab terrorists. It was the collapse of WTC7 that really got to me, but then the other evidence began to fall into place and while I'm not usually big on the whole conspriacy theories, I'm convinced. I'm not going to start linking to all the articles I've read, they're all pretty readily available if you want to look them up for yourself, I'm just here stating my opinion. That is all.

[Qdrop]

No other such tape has been found. If you want to talk statistics, then wouldn't the odds be pretty good if there were "50" more that another would be?
as your initial post said, they are small and easily hidden. it would stand to reason that to find one among an entire city would be improbable. but to find 1 among, say, 50....would be much more probable.
but finding, say 25, among the 50 would be less likely....

and how do YOU know other copies have not been found?
just because the military hasn't announced it?




Surely you have heard of the 5 Israeli's found by a Jersey cop dancing and singing around their white van while watching the Towers go down?
The subsequent investigation was quickly shut down -Carl Cameron of Fox news attempted to report on it - and was labeled classified. Blueprints of the towers were found inside the van.
actually, no.
links please.
not rumors.



Speculation so much as you are trying to work it out in your own mind, hence speculation would seem to abound, for all you can do is speculate.
and vice-versa.



Islamic Law requires that men wear no gold at all. Even gold underneath another metal or gold plate. Only the women are allowed to wear it. It is a direct violation of Islamic law to wear gold.
*sigh*
SO...after all this INCREDIBLY complex planning, with probably the highest amount of necessary conspirators and logostics of any orchestrated conspiracy IN HISTORY on a WORLDWIDE level....planning that would have taken years, MILLIONS of $$, relentless practice and training....
the actors forgot to take thier rings off?

does that make any fuckin sense?

come on, D.
WHO'S the one who needs to open thier eyes here?



And you didn't bother to respond to why he was writing with his right hand.
show me both.
i want to see him writing with both hands. i have not seen that yet.


http://www.911myths.com/html/fake_video.html

http://www.911myths.com/html/responsibility.html

http://www.911myths.com/html/bin_ladin_right_handed_.html

http://www.911myths.com/html/bin_ladin_and_the_ring.html

^jesus, D. that pretty much slams everything you've been spouting.
tell me, how does it feel when you read through that?

i also gotta say....i never pegged you as someone who just parroted the latest internet conspiracy theories like a CB radio...yet the fact that that website specifically attacks EACH of your "points of contention" shows how you are just one of the conspiracy nut sheeple...regurgating the speculation without investigating it.

you claim to be skeptical....but yet you showed virtually NO skepticism about many of the fanciful, dubious claims.
this 911 Myths site alone displays rather simple logic and easily obtained research to show how ridiculous these claims of conspiracy are.
you spent so much time "investigating" one side...why not the other?
you, and people like you should feel ashamed.
not proud, because you think yourself a question asking patriot, but ashamed.

perhaps the phrase "real patriots ask questions" should be revised to "real patriots ask questions after they've first done some rudimentary research on both sides".

[Qdrop]

pre-planned demolition (http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc__demolition_.html)

great link man.

i'm just gonna forward that to everyone from now on....

pretty much sums up what i and others have pointing to on the logical side of things.

[D_Raay]

Hehehe, you are kidding right?

Right on the site, after every one of their refutations, it says "our thoughts", or "we think".
Overall, we can't say with 100% certainty that the tape is real

But does this make us an authority? No. If we’ve an overall message here, it’s check things for yourself. Don’t trust a site just because it’s telling you what you want to believe. Don’t believe us without evaluating our arguments and checking the references we provide, either (we’re as likely to make mistakes as anyone else). Look into the claims yourself, discover both sides of the argument, and make your own mind up. The truth deserves nothing less.
They couldn't have said it better. And you can take your pandering and preening about how you think you are right because you have discovered this one poorly made website out there amongst hundreds that have a different view and stick them in your arse. You really are a bore Q. A self righteous bore.

[D_Raay]

actually, no.
links please.
not rumors.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/Mideast/Israelis_Arrested_and_Detained/israelis_arrested_and_detained.html

Attorney General John Ashcroft has released an Israeli suspect in the Sept. 11 terrorist events who “had trouble” with a seven-hour polygraph test administered by the FBI—but who “did better on a second try.” In other words, the suspect still flunked both times.

That’s not some “rumor” from the Muslim world. That remarkable admission appeared in the Nov. 21 is sue of The New York Times.

The Times reported the suspect, Paul Kurzberg, “re fused on principle to divulge much about his role in the Israeli army or subsequently working for people who may have had ties to Israeli intelligence.”

Yet, Ashcroft sent Kurzer home to Israel.

http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/israelispys.html

On the day of the attack a resident of Jersey City reported suspicious behavior by a group of men who appeared to be celebrating as they filmed the destruction across the Hudson. Mainstream media initially reported that the men, who were arrested around 4:30 PM, were Arabs. In fact the men were Israelis. The FBI released them 71 days later. The FBI also detained other groups of Israeli's before and after 9/11/01, concluding some were part of an "organised intelligence-gathering operation" designed to "penetrate government facilities." 1

The following excerpt from a 2003 version of Paul Thompson's 9-11 Timeline summarizes reports of the group of Israelis who filmed the World Trade Center attack from New Jersey. 2

September 11, 2001 (W): Five Israelis are arrested for "puzzling behavior" related to the WTC attacks. They are arrested around 4:30 P.M. after having filmed the burning WTC from the roof of their company's building near Liberty State Park, then shouting in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery. They were spotted by a neighbor who called the police and the FBI. The police tracked them down in a van with the words "Urban Moving Systems" written on the side. [ Bergen Record, 9/12/01, Ha'aretz, 9/17/01] One man was found with $4,700 in cash hidden in his sock, another had two passports on him, and a box cutter was found in the van. [ ABC News, 6/21/02] Investigators say that "There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted... It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen." [ Bergen Record, 9/12/01] One of these Israelis later says, "Our purpose was to document the event." [ ABC News, 6/21/02] The FBI later concludes at least two are Mossad agents and that all were on a Mossad surveillance mission. The FBI interrogates them for weeks. [ Forward, 3/15/02] They are held on immigration violation charges and released 71 days later. [ ABC News, 6/21/02] Their names are later identified as Sivan and Paul Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari and Yaron Shmuel. [ Forward, 3/15/02]

[Qdrop]

Right on the site, after every one of their refutations, it says "our thoughts", or "we think".


but of course. few things in life can be proven 100% true without a shadow of a doubt.

but you believe in evolution, right?
why?

They couldn't have said it better. yes. this is only one of many sites that do a good job of attacking the conspiracy claims..yet this is one of the best, in how it uses pretty basic logic, and easy to access data and research, showing people LIKE YOU how you could have done this before blindly stepping onto the 9/11 conspiracy bandwagon.
attaching yourself to every generic theory out there...

And you can take your pandering and preening about how you think you are right because you have discovered this one poorly made website out there amongst hundreds that have a different view and stick them in your arse. You really are a bore Q. A self righteous bore.
go ahead and disprove anything they have said.
anything, D.
pick any of those topcis they discuss that smashes one of your theories, and scientifically/logically refute it.
you have such passion...use it.
i wanna see how much heart you really have invested in this.

come on, fight back. show me how poorly made and poorly thought out that website is.


if you feel I am putting all my eggs in one basket with this site, i can find many others.
shit, half this info is stuff i and others have been spouting for months now...because it's pretty basic and logical.

[Qdrop]

hey great work on finding those Israeli links D...

now how about you play devil's advocate and theorize another reason that they were there OTHER than being part of a massive conspiracy to orchestrate 9/11?

can you do that?

how about a little Occam's Razor?
what do ya say....

[tracky]

hey great work on finding those Israeli links D...

now how about you play devil's advocate and theorize another reason that they were there OTHER than being part of a massive conspiracy to orchestrate 9/11?

can you do that?

how about a little Occam's Razor?
what do ya say....

That's your job, you're the skeptic here. How about you theorize another reason that they were there.

can you do that?

[Qdrop]

That's your job, you're the skeptic here. How about you theorize another reason that they were there.

can you do that?

we should ALL be sketpical about everything...on BOTH sides.

i've said before, that i don't think we know everything there is to know about 9/11...i think the administration is covering some shit up, i think the 9/11 commision made some pathetic mistakes and omissions that need to be answered for....

but i also do not believe that there was any kind of US orchestrated conspiracy.

[D_Raay]

hey great work on finding those Israeli links D...

now how about you play devil's advocate and theorize another reason that they were there OTHER than being part of a massive conspiracy to orchestrate 9/11?

can you do that?

how about a little Occam's Razor?
what do ya say....

It is always better to say right out what you think without trying to prove anything much: for all our proofs are only variations of our opinions, and the contrary-minded listen neither to one nor the other.

[D_Raay]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/310306launchinvestigation.htm

Billionaire philanthropist Jimmy Walter and WTC survivor William Rodriguez this week embarked on a groundbreaking trip to Caracas Venezuela in which they met with with the President of the Assembly and will soon meet with Venezuelan President himself Hugo Chavez in anticipation of an official Venezuelan government investigation into 9/11.

Rodriguez was the last survivor pulled from the rubble of the north tower of the WTC, and was responsible for all stairwells within the tower. Rodriguez represented family members of 9/11 victims and testified to the 9/11 Commission that bombs were in the north tower but his statements were completely omitted from the official record.

Jimmy Walter has been at the forefront of a world tour to raise awareness about 9/11 and has still yet to receive any response to his million dollar challenge in which he offers a $1 million reward for proof that the trade towers' steel structure was broken apart without explosives.

Rodriguez said that he was told an FBI agent had asked the hotel him and Walter were staying in turn over a list of names of residents. Upon hearing this, the National Assembly provided armed military protection for the entirety of the trip. In addition, Walters said that CIA agents were seen surveilling the beach on which he and Rodriguez had handed out free DVD's a day earlier.

The US government attempted to sabotage the trip by putting Rodriguez, who has been decorated at the White House itself, and Walter on a no fly list.

Rodriguez and Walter are educating top Venezuelan officials on the evidence that 9/11 was a self-inflicted wound carried out by the military-industrial complex. They have also appeared on every Venezuelan television and radio station both private and state owned and have given huge presentations to major universities.

Upon visiting, Rodriguez said that the President of the Assembly, Nicolas Maduro's home was brimming with books, videos and documents about the 9/11 cover-up. Maduro, Venezuela's top legislator, intoned that he was ready to create an international investigative committee, looking into the "international crime scene" that is 9/11 and that this would be structured via Hugo Chavez's government.

Rodriguez and Walter are also set to appear on Hugo Chavez's weekly broadcast 'Alo Presidente' - which is often subsequently the source of major international headlines. If there is no coverage of this event then we know for sure that a blackout order is in place.

Rodriguez and Walter offered their full support for Charlie Sheen's recent public stance on 9/11 and were heartened by his efforts. The potential of a government level inquiry endorsed by Hugo Chavez dovetails with Sheen's call for an independent investigation to be carried out by political foreign nationals.

Though the establishment media will no doubt seek to demonize Chavez as a militant with an axe to grind, this is an exciting development and the next step on the road to a genuine investigation that will seek to uncover the truth rather than hide skeletons and whitewash as was witnessed with the staged Kean committee.

[D_Raay]

http://www.bravocharlie911.com/

Even "hastily" built it looks better than that other website that is designed by true professionals no doubt.

[yeahwho]

http://www.bravocharlie911.com/

Even "hastily" built it looks better than that other website that is designed by true professionals no doubt.

That is a very cool link. Thanks.

[kaiser soze]

I find it ironic that a murder committed by a celebrity has more scrutiny, deliberation, and judgement compared to a major terrorist attack.

WAR was the verdict in just a couple days.....you can't declare war against a couple nations for a crime committed by a few

I find it odd that the evidence was just shipped away to Wal-mart land, "Pulled" by a sleaze bag landlord, and brushed under a carpet bombing.

be aware, your fouton might be evidence

[checkyourprez]

i don't believe that the pentagon attack was done by a missile or drone plane.

as far as the Towers and building 7, i have alot of questions that the 9/11 commission did not answer, or answer effectively.

there is alot of science and engineering opinion that those planes could not have taken those towers down on thier own.
and there were some glaring mistakes on the 9/11 commission's report on the structure of the towers which refutes thier claims....

still, i just can't get my mind around how any entity could orchestrate an inside job of this magnitude without it being exposed.
the logistics of the government sneaking into that building and setting up explosives...on top of coordinating this multi-plane attack...
the manpower needed, the virtual impossible amount of secrecy involved for such a clandestine operation with THAT MANY PEOPLE would just be impossible.
the logistics are nearly incomprehensible.

and for what? why collapse the buildings? why wouldn't the planes be enough?
why virtually TRIPLE the operation logistics and TRIPLE the chance of info leak...just to add some more shock&awe?
that doesn't make sense.
why isn't anyone realizing this?

dont you think it would have looked weird had building 7 fell, and the twin towers didnt? there would have been way less deaths if the twin towers didnt fall. there would have been way more attentioned paid to number 7 as well.

also why all the unusual amount of holds put on certain stocks that day. also any coinsodence in the fact that building 7 held a huge amount of investigative data on shady stock market practices.

no concievable explanation for building 7 falling being so far away from the twin towers, and no other buildings falling but those 3.

[EN[i]GMA]

dont you think it would have looked weird had building 7 fell, and the twin towers didnt? there would have been way less deaths if the twin towers didnt fall. there would have been way more attentioned paid to number 7 as well.

also why all the unusual amount of holds put on certain stocks that day. also any coinsodence in the fact that building 7 held a huge amount of investigative data on shady stock market practices.

no concievable explanation for building 7 falling being so far away from the twin towers, and no other buildings falling but those 3.

Is this really the best you have?

If so, it's pitiful.

This sort of conjecture should be, and is, laughed out of most rational discourse.

I'm not saying a case for collusion couldn't be made, I'm just saying that I haven't heard anyone make it.

Honestly, think this through: In order to cover up their supposed stock market crimes THEY TEAR DOWN 3 BUILDINGS AND KILL 3000 PEOPLE!?

That has to be the most insane thing I've ever heard.

"To hide my white collar crime that most likely will never be found out I'm going to commit the worst act of terrorism in Earth's history, in the most conspicious way possible".

If someone were all-powerful enough to orchestrate the attack, wouldn't they also have the power to hide/burn a few papers?

They destroy this building but not all the other buildings that could conceivably hold evidence against them?

They blow up a building accross the street from the towers, something that sets off every conspiricy theorists tin-foil antenna?

I honestly don't know what happend to building 7, but I feel pretty safe in assuming you're completely wrong.

This really is like pointing to supposed 'flaws' in evolution and using it to posit God; you're taking (Relatively minor) flaws in the data, flaws which in no way actually discredit the theory as a whole, and using these flaws to support a wildly illogical conclusion.

[checkyourprez]

GMA']Is this really the best you have?

If so, it's pitiful.

This sort of conjecture should be, and is, laughed out of most rational discourse.




hah um no actually it wasnt, but i have a life outside of the board and just put something rather quick down in response to Q's stuff.

but thanks for your input. :p

[EN[i]GMA]

hah um no actually it wasnt, but i have a life outside of the board and just put something rather quick down in response to Q's stuff.

but thanks for your input. :p

Ah, the classic "I have a life" routine.

Tell me, why bring the fact up? Self-concious, perhaps?

Does rational thought take longer or something?

The fact you 'have a life' should do nothing to prevent you from making logical posts.

I also find it ironic that you think your 'life' is more important than uncovering would undoubtably be the greatest conspiricy in history.

"Hmm, take down a nefarious government plot or get pissed with my vapid friends."

Real dedication to the cause.

[checkyourprez]

GMA']Ah, the classic "I have a life" routine.

Tell me, why bring the fact up? Self-concious, perhaps?

Does rational thought take longer or something?

The fact you 'have a life' should do nothing to prevent you from making logical posts.

I also find it ironic that you think your 'life' is more important than uncovering would undoubtably be the greatest conspiricy in history.

"Hmm, take down a nefarious government plot or get pissed with my vapid friends."

Real dedication to the cause.

um yes the "i have a life routine" is what i used, and thats because it pertains.

theres a lot of other things i could have mentioned...

i could have just went through the loose change video and spit out fact after fact but im sure most have already seen it. and if that doesnt raise serious doubts in your mind about the factuality of the events that happend that day then i dont know what to tell you.


you seem to be a little uptight, go smoke a joint.

[EN[i]GMA]

um yes the "i have a life routine" is what i used, and thats because it pertains.

Sure it does.


theres a lot of other things i could have mentioned...

But of course you didn't.


i could have just went through the loose change video and spit out fact after fact but im sure most have already seen it. and if that doesnt raise serious doubts in your mind about the factuality of the events that happend that day then i dont know what to tell you.

I belive I've seen most of it and I was pretty underwhelmed.

I might watch it again.


you seem to be a little uptight, go smoke a joint.

'Uptight'?

As in rational? As in 'not a raving lunatic'?

[DroppinScience]

Wait, so let me get this straight.

Checkyourprez concocted this theory that 9/11 was to cover up white collar crimes by smoking some doobies?

Your persuavive skills are not to be underestimated...

[EN[i]GMA]

Wait, so let me get this straight.

Checkyourprez concocted this theory that 9/11 was to cover up white collar crimes by smoking some doobies?

Your persuavive skills are not to be underestimated...

Indeed, they're not to be estimated at all.

[checkyourprez]

were the aforementioned not unusual coincidences?

and you want some more questions, here ya go bud.

what explains the multiple explosions people heard in the twin towers before they fell?

what explains the bottom levels looking like a bomb had went off in them?

what explains no other skyscraper ever falling before because of fire and then two buildings ment to withstand hurricanes, high winds, bombings, and airplanes hitting it, falling because of fire?

what explains building 7, a building 300ft away from the others, falling at all?

what explains the world trade centers steel that was certified to withstand temperatures of 2000 degrees and more like 3000 degrees, falling after only being on fire for such a short period of time?

what explains all the strange drills going on in the towers the weeks proceding the attacks?

what explains the video tapes of the control demolition style explosives going off as the world trade center was going down?

what explains the all too orderly fall of the buildings?

ive got more once you answer those.

[checkyourprez]

Wait, so let me get this straight.

Checkyourprez concocted this theory that 9/11 was to cover up white collar crimes by smoking some doobies?

Your persuavive skills are not to be underestimated...


o but of course. clearly it was those pot smoking dirty stock brokers behind all of this, didnt you read me saying that the first time. :)

[Documad]

Does anyone really believe that the US government could keep a big secret?
These conspiracy theories only work if you have a complete ignorance as to how the government functions.

Life is not the X-Files.

[tracky]

I've thought the same thing documad. But it might not have taken as many people as you think, and if these people are not only paid off well (insider trading etc) but also living in fear then it is all too possible, imo. Not everyone involved is in on the conspiracy, even tho they may have unwittingly played a part in it.

[Documad]

No matter what the secret, there are little people who know things -- secretaries, cleaning ladies, file clerks, security people. Most of the time, they have no incentive to pass things along because it's boring to them, but a secret that good would get passed to a wife, to a hairdresser, etc. If more than two people know it, you can't keep it a secret.

[tracky]

but like i say, what if they are living in fear of the "machine" they are a part of, knowing full well it's abilities. afaik there are people trying to speak out, but they are silenced or maybe just ignored by the rest. Kinda like the truth is so big that it just can't be true. also I'm pretty sure secretaries and cleaning ladies wouldn't factor into this. we're talking a few major players, not a whole government conspiracy. To say it's a government conspiracy isn't quite right, but to say that it was either helped along by people other than terrorists or even planned by people other than terrorists, could well be valid, looking at the evidence we have right now.

[D_Raay]

It is always better to say right out what you think without trying to prove anything much: for all our proofs are only variations of our opinions, and the contrary-minded listen neither to one nor the other.-

[tracky]

^ if that were true I wouldn't have changed my stand on the situation. I used to think like documad, how could so many cover it up. Now I'm not so sure. So whatever that statement is meant to mean, it's false. But obviously that's just my opinion and I can never be swayed :rolleyes:

[Qdrop]

no concievable explanation for building 7 falling being so far away from the twin towers, and no other buildings falling but those 3.

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_damage.html

^dude, read through that WHOLE site before you comment.

there was EXTENSIVE damage to building 7.....the main internal structure was guttted by fire. we have mostly seen pics from the other side, which show only a few flames, but pics from the other side show a differant story.

this has already been posted on page 2.

[Qdrop]

what explains the multiple explosions people heard in the twin towers before they fell?

what explains the bottom levels looking like a bomb had went off in them?

http://www.911myths.com/html/accounts_of_explosions.html

what explains no other skyscraper ever falling before because of fire and then two buildings ment to withstand hurricanes, high winds, bombings, and airplanes hitting it, falling because of fire?

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_707_impact.html

no building has ever been hit by a commercial jet of this size carrying this much fuel...including the empire state building.

http://www.911myths.com/html/progressive_collapse.html


what explains the world trade centers steel that was certified to withstand temperatures of 2000 degrees and more like 3000 degrees, falling after only being on fire for such a short period of time?

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html

what explains all the strange drills going on in the towers the weeks proceding the attacks?
what drills?
explain.

and:
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_power_down.html

what explains the video tapes of the control demolition style explosives going off as the world trade center was going down?

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_squibs.html

what explains the all too orderly fall of the buildings?
just click through here:
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc__demolition_.html

ive got more once you answer those.
like i said, just go to that site first and read through it. then see if you have anymore questions.

[Qdrop]

I've thought the same thing documad. But it might not have taken as many people as you think, and if these people are not only paid off well (insider trading etc) but also living in fear then it is all too possible, imo. Not everyone involved is in on the conspiracy, even tho they may have unwittingly played a part in it.

Oreeeeeiillly?:

The "Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon" argument has to explain the debris that appeared, and damage like the broken street lights. Some suggest the answer is simple: the debris was planted, the street light damage faked. Now, if that happened, it's certainly most unlikely that those involved would also have in-depth knowledge of explosives in the WTC, but so what? That doesn't matter. If one person came forward to say "I was in a secret army team that planted fake debris at the Pentagon on 9/11", then don't you think that's going to be enough to create some considerable headlines?

And it's the same in many other areas. Planting explosives at the WTC, say. Being a member of Bush's secret service detail on 9/11 and saying you had advance knowledge of the attack, therefore knew he was in no danger. Being on the NIST or FEMA teams and explaining how you were leaned on to produce a conclusion that you don't believe makes sense. None of these people need know everything about 9/11, but they would all have enough information to completely change what we think about the event.

What's more, the "small conspiracy" argument also ignores what's supposed to be a huge coverup. Have you ever looked at the list of people involved in the FEMA and NIST WTC reports, for instance? What's the explanation for these academics, engineers and scientists producing something that others would have us believe is an incompetent tissue of lies? Why they've been "leaned on", of course, or they're scared of speaking out. In which case they're now also a part of the conspiracy, if only after the fact, and have to be included in the total.

What is the total? It's hard to say, not least because some people could have more than one conspiracy or coverup-related task. Still, here are some of the people who have very useful knowledge about 9/11 events (assuming you accept all the 9/11 conspiracy theories; cross off names here for the ones you don’t)

* CIA agent Larry Mitchell for meeting with bin Laden in the months before 9/11, and everyone else in the CIA who knows they're not actually trying to capture him after all
* GW Bush and various family members (if you're to believe the relevance of Bush family members being involved with the WTC security company Stratesec)
* Condoleezza Rice (if you believe she had enough knowledge to warn Willie Brown that he might be in danger)
* John Ashcroft (if you believe he had enough knowledge to decide not to fly commercial flights)
* Larry Silverstein (if you believe he knew 9/11 was coming and that there were explosives in WTC7)
* The 19 people who played the part of the hijackers, if you believe they were just their to play a role and were never on the planes
* Enough senior people at the FBI to block progress in the Moussaoui case, ensure the Phoenix memo was ignored, and more
* Ahmad Umar Sheikh for funding the hijackers, General Mahmoud Ahmad for ordering him to do so, and enough of the ISI to get the money and cover up that they were doing this for the US
* Everyone who found out about the attacks in advance, and chose not to go into work rather than warn anyone else, and didn't mention this after the fact (thousands of Israelis in the towers, and so on), and everyone who warned them
* Everyone responsible for the insider trading before the attacks, the CIA for supposedly monitoring these transactions but doing nothing about them, and enough of the SEC and FBI to ensure that the report was a whitewash
* The members of Bush’s secret service team on 9/11 (who presumably either knew in advance that he was safe, or haven’t spoken out about their surprise about what happened subsequently)
* The five "dancing Israelis" who filmed the attack "as it happened", and presumably many others in Israeli Intelligence, and enough people in the police or FBI to cover up the details of the case and get them shipped out
* Everyone responsible for planting evidence in the hijackers cars, bags and so on
* Everyone responsible for planting evidence in the WTC wreckage (passports etc), or removing it (WTC black boxes)
* Air Traffic Control and flight schedulers at the takeoff airports (to cope with the double flights), and to make sure they didn't follow procedure in reporting the hijackings promptly
* Whoever prepared the "special" planes swapped for the real flights, complete with "missile pod" for firing into the towers just before impact, and the ATC and Norad staff who didn't mention the swap
* Norad and senior officers working at the day (so they could lie about the war games and their lack of response)
* Fighter pilots who deliberately flew too slowly so they wouldn't reach the aircraft in time
* Whoever shot down Flight 93, and the senior officers who helped cover it up
* Everyone who researched the passengers, then all the actors who used that research to make fake mobile calls to their relatives, and either the phone company or the FBI for covering up the phone records
* Everyone involved in killing hundreds of passengers, assuming they didn't die in the crashes and were killed later
* Everyone involved in transporting their bodies to the various scenes if they did, or faking the DNA evidence if they didn't
* The people who researched the WTC to find out the best place to place explosives
* The people who planted the explosives through the WTC towers and WTC7
* Whoever detonated the WTC explosives at various different times of the day
* Enough of the New York Fire and Police Departments to shut up everyone else and make sure they didn't try to investigate why all their friends and colleagues died
* Everyone who prepared the remote control plane that really flew into the Pentagon, and whoever remote-controlled it, and the Washington Air Traffic Controllers who aren't allowed to talk about the extra radar blip they saw over the Pentagon (if Flight 77 really flew over it)
* The Sheraton hotel staff who reportedly saw the video of the plane as it flew past to the Pentagon, but have never said that it wasn't the "official" flight
* The people who ensured the Pentagon missile defence systems were disabled to the plane could hit
* The people who planted the fake Pentagon evidence, from body parts to black boxes, and those who prepared it
* The people who faked additional evidence around the Pentagon, bringing down lampposts etc in an effort to make it look like a large winged plane carried out the attack
* Rudolph Giuliani for having advance knowledge that the WTC was going to collapse, and for helping to ensure that the steel was disposed of quickly
* Enough people at American and United Airlines to keep quiet about the absence of the hijackers names from the passenger manifests
* Enough people at CNN not to question the absence of the hijackers names from the flight manifests, if you believe that's what their victims lists really are
* Enough people at FEMA and NIST to ensure any reports and analyses produced were whitewashes
* Enough senior officials at the many WTC insurance companies to ensure the doubts were ignored and claims were paid
* Everyone involved in producing the fake bin Laden "confession" video(s)
* Khalid Al-Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi Bin Al-Sheeba for discussing how they planned 9/11 on audio tape even though this didn’t happen, and perhaps al Jazeera reporter Yosri Fouda for getting the interview (if we assume he knows it isn't true)
* All the other Al Qaeda members who've either implicitly or explicitly accepted responsibility for 9/11, even when they know it was carried out by someone else
* The staff of the 9/11 Commission for deliberately obscuring the truth

Sounds reasonable, I think, but this is only the start. If you discuss 9/11 conspiracies online anywhere, try keeping your own list, and add to it everyone someone implies that another person or group was “in on it”. Then produce the list after a month or two and see just how realistic it looks...

[Qdrop]

dude, i am going to fuckin marry this site...
priceless....

http://www.911myths.com/html/the_irish_did_it___or_did_they.html

"...On the other hand, a conspiracy theory can't rely on the number of "anomalies" alone. Because as we've seen, you can find issues, and questions, and coincidences anywhere, if you look for long enough and aren’t interested in contrary information. A true theory is something more, something that links all these points together in a coherent whole, and, crucially, makes more sense than the alternative explanations.

In 9/11 terms, for instance, that doesn't just mean saying "I don’t think there’s enough wreckage at the Pentagon for a plane, it was probably a missile instead". It also involves finding a plausible reason why you would use anything other than Flight 77, and risk the whole conspiracy if you were discovered.

And it doesn't just mean saying "thermite in the basement would explain the reports of molten steel". It also means explaining why thermite is required at all, calculating how much you'd need to keep burning and produce molten steel for weeks, and why the conspirators would have used so much more than necessary.

A true theory means no longer just picking at one account, then, but having the courage to produce your own complete version, and explaining why it's better. It's hard work, it may mean you have to accept some of your treasured beliefs aren't actually anomalies at all, but ultimately it's the only way non-believers in the rest of the world will ever be persuaded to take you seriously."

-----

it's not good enough to point out "oddities" or "anomolies" and think yourself clever.
you have to explain how those anomolies come together, and how they were orchestrated...and the full reasons and logistics behind them.

[tracky]

see now i'm thinking the other way again ;) But why did the official report ignore WTC7 if there is all this testimony that it was ready to collapse?

I still reckon that there was an element of either they knew it was gonna happen and let it happen or even helped it happen. that's just my opinion. i've never doubted that arab terrorists flew planes into the buildings. i guess we will never really know, either, because as soon as one person comes up with supposedly valid evidence there's another ready to debunk it, on both sides.

[Qdrop]

But why did the official report ignore WTC7 if there is all this testimony that it was ready to collapse?


now THAT is a viable question...one that i am asking as well.
the 9/11 commission had embarressing little to say about WTC7, and didn't give a thourough report on it's structural failings.

a conspiracy?
no.

probably a lazy attempt at the research, ....laziness that is now being swept under the rug.

[fucktopgirl]

One thing for shure in the 9/11 coverup , ,the truth is hidiing at the end of that gigantic maze!We all know that lies have been told and we will never been able to find out really wich ones,how,where...But we can be shure that things are fishy and some people make major profit of this dramatic event!

[checkyourprez]

its also a lot easier to believe just looking at the track record of this adminstration.

i know thats not proof, but it can certainly led people to question the "official word" on something like this, when so many other dirty secrets seem to be continuously popping up.

[Qdrop]

its also a lot easier to believe just looking at the track record of this adminstration.


exactly.
look at thier track record with..say...Katrina...

look at that collossul fuck up by all facets of the gov't, including the federal gov't and the bush administration.
one of the biggest logistical and beaurocratic fuck-ups in our lifetime...

does that sound like an administration that could orchestrate the greatest conspiracy in the history of mankind?

look at thier track record indeed....


there's plenty other reasons to hate Bush, his administration, republicans, and the gov't in general.
we don't need to make shit up...

[D_Raay]

exactly.
look at thier track record with..say...Katrina...

look at that collossul fuck up by all facets of the gov't, including the federal gov't and the bush administration.
one of the biggest logistical and beaurocratic fuck-ups in our lifetime...

does that sound like an administration that could orchestrate the greatest conspiracy in the history of mankind?

look at thier track record indeed....


there's plenty other reasons to hate Bush, his administration, republicans, and the gov't in general.
we don't need to make shit up...
Now you are getting somewhere. Only the problem is what our government chose to do, despite the countless warnings and apprehensions by numerous experts, after 9/11. It sure doesn't dissuade any theorists out there.

And what of Israel?

They had years to plan something like this. We have all seen the PNAC's mission statement. Even bunglers, with some help from say Israel, could manage this.

As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities.

[Qdrop]

And what of Israel?

They had years to plan something like this. We have all seen the PNAC's mission statement. Even bunglers, with some help from say Israel, could manage this.


why would Israel risk it?
having such a conspiracy uncovered would mean the certified death of thier country.
game over.
done.
no more israel.
alone in a sea of enemies...including a US bent on revenge.
the slaughter would make the Holocaust look like an "unfortunate event".

Jews everywhere would become the most hated/untrusted ethnic group overnight.

[D_Raay]

The only reason we have conspiracy theorists is a government caught red-handed lying to us, and a mainstream media that refuses to call them on it.

Something is at work here. Covering for incompetence? I don't think so. That is there trump card. Everyone agrees they are incompetent. It is an acceptable explanation versus the alternative.

So the Keystone Cops run the world? How convenient. So all this money that goes into think tanks and planning and policy decision is nothing more than mass incompetence? Right.

[EN[i]GMA]

were the aforementioned not unusual coincidences?

No, not at all.

You could find any number of similar insinuations about anything of this magnitude.


and you want some more questions, here ya go bud.

I hope these don't suck as much as the last ones.


what explains the multiple explosions people heard in the twin towers before they fell?

What explosions?


what explains the bottom levels looking like a bomb had went off in them?

THe falling dust and debris.

See, this is a totally asinine point. Are you honestly saying they set off bombs in the ground floor? If they did that, wouldn't the building have immediately fallen?

If a bomb really did go off (None noticed?), the whole thing would have fallen, unless you're implying that put bombs in there and explodede them seemingly at random.


what explains no other skyscraper ever falling before because of fire and then two buildings ment to withstand hurricanes, high winds, bombings, and airplanes hitting it, falling because of fire?

Because no building built the same way (The internal steel column and the metal exoskelton) had been hit with a plane that size, with fires that hot inside it.

It's never happend before; unprecedented.


what explains building 7, a building 300ft away from the others, falling at all?

An explosion in the basement is one possible theory. The collapse of the towers may have influenced it.

It honestly is a good question.


what explains the world trade centers steel that was certified to withstand temperatures of 2000 degrees and more like 3000 degrees, falling after only being on fire for such a short period of time?

Bullshit.

Utter bullshit.

If you knew anything, anything at all, about this (You likely don't; I assume too much) you'd know that tempetures reached temperatures exceeding 1000 degrees, enough to weaken steel.

The steel was weakened enough to allow the thousands upon thousands of tons on top of the building to cause it to fall.

Simple.


what explains all the strange drills going on in the towers the weeks proceding the attacks?

What kind of question is that?

'Well, someone was drilling at his house the day before it caught fire. They obviosly implanted some sort of flammable material and a fuse'.

I don't know, and neither do you.

To be honest, I've never heard anything about it.

But let's think here: If this really were a plot, would they have allowed you to know about it?


what explains the video tapes of the control demolition style explosives going off as the world trade center was going down?

There's no evidence of this.


what explains the all too orderly fall of the buildings?

The fact that they fell because the steel in the center column, around which the building was constructed, weakened.

It would happen like that 100 our 100 times due to the construction.


ive got more once you answer those.

More bullshit sophistry and vague, meaningless allusions to thinks I don't even think happend?

Tiresome.

Let's try another game: You prove to me what happend.

Can't do it, can you?

So instead you resort to 'what abouts' like they prove anything other than your own vapid delusion.

[checkyourprez]

GMA']No, not at all.

You could find any number of similar insinuations about anything of this magnitude.



I hope these don't suck as much as the last ones.



What explosions?



THe falling dust and debris.

See, this is a totally asinine point. Are you honestly saying they set off bombs in the ground floor? If they did that, wouldn't the building have immediately fallen?

If a bomb really did go off (None noticed?), the whole thing would have fallen, unless you're implying that put bombs in there and explodede them seemingly at random.



Because no building built the same way (The internal steel column and the metal exoskelton) had been hit with a plane that size, with fires that hot inside it.

It's never happend before; unprecedented.



An explosion in the basement is one possible theory. The collapse of the towers may have influenced it.

It honestly is a good question.



Bullshit.

Utter bullshit.

If you knew anything, anything at all, about this (You likely don't; I assume too much) you'd know that tempetures reached temperatures exceeding 1000 degrees, enough to weaken steel.

The steel was weakened enough to allow the thousands upon thousands of tons on top of the building to cause it to fall.

Simple.



What kind of question is that?

'Well, someone was drilling at his house the day before it caught fire. They obviosly implanted some sort of flammable material and a fuse'.

I don't know, and neither do you.

To be honest, I've never heard anything about it.

But let's think here: If this really were a plot, would they have allowed you to know about it?



There's no evidence of this.



The fact that they fell because the steel in the center column, around which the building was constructed, weakened.

It would happen like that 100 our 100 times due to the construction.



More bullshit sophistry and vague, meaningless allusions to thinks I don't even think happend?

Tiresome.

Let's try another game: You prove to me what happend.

Can't do it, can you?

So instead you resort to 'what abouts' like they prove anything other than your own vapid delusion.


yo you are like the smartest 18 year old i ever met. you should have already graduated college and have lots of friends because you just seem so dope at life. cheers.

[checkyourprez]

exactly.
look at thier track record with..say...Katrina...

look at that collossul fuck up by all facets of the gov't, including the federal gov't and the bush administration.
one of the biggest logistical and beaurocratic fuck-ups in our lifetime...

does that sound like an administration that could orchestrate the greatest conspiracy in the history of mankind?

look at thier track record indeed....


there's plenty other reasons to hate Bush, his administration, republicans, and the gov't in general.
we don't need to make shit up...


maybe thats the point, make them seem so retarded, that they couldnt have done it.

[EN[i]GMA]

yo you are like the smartest 18 year old i ever met. you should have already graduated college and have lots of friends because you just seem so dope at life. cheers.

Hint: You might sound like less of a dumbass if you used capital letters.

Why not just save yourself some more trouble and not type anything at all? Hitting 'Shift' too hard? Don't press A-Z either.

Save us all some trouble.

[checkyourprez]

GMA']Hint: You might sound like less of a dumbass if you used capital letters.

Why not just save yourself some more trouble and not type anything at all? Hitting 'Shift' too hard? Don't press A-Z either.

Save us all some trouble.

nah im fine with how i type, if you were my professor and i had to write a paper thats a different story. but i dont need english lessons from you dear boy.

maybe if you tried to be a little less condescending to people and not act like you were the academic shit id take you a little more serious.

[Freedom Toast]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/10/august6.memo/

August 6, 2001


"Hey Dubya....it says here this Bin Laden guys wants to attack New York and Washington, using explosives and hijacking aircraft. What do you wanna do about it?"


"Nothin"


Who fucking cares how it happened....the fact is everyone LET IT HAPPEN.....and had something to gain from it.

[greedygretchen]

Where's Charlie Sheen when you need him? :p

[fucktopgirl]

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php#Main

a video from the pentagon crash,,beware psychedelic music,hehe!

[kaiser soze]

http://thewebfairy.com/911/pullit/

yup, WTC7 fell all by itself :rolleyes:

[Qdrop]

http://thewebfairy.com/911/pullit/

yup, WTC7 fell all by itself :rolleyes:

yeah, "pull it" as in pull out the fire fighters and let the building burn/fall on it's own.

gee, let's think....
do you really think people are gonna sit there, ON TAPE, and admit to loading up a building with explosives prior....and blow the whole lid of some crazy conspiracy?

do you even think about this shit before you swallow it?

[Funkaloyd]

That old Jew Silverstein, being the age that he is, had a temporary lapse of sanity. Which is why we can 100% trust that he meant "we blew it up".

[kaiser soze]

yeah, "pull it" as in pull out the fire fighters and let the building burn/fall on it's own.

gee, let's think....
do you really think people are gonna sit there, ON TAPE, and admit to loading up a building with explosives prior....and blow the whole lid of some crazy conspiracy?

do you even think about this shit before you swallow it?

gee, Let's think...

Buildings fall in a clean and orderly fashion just like a controlled demolition due to "fire" all the time

The building fell in on itself into it's own footprint, It didn't topple over, it didn't lose portions of it's facade, the whole thing just "fell"

this is a miraculous collapse from only fire

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc7.html#new

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/videos/index.html#building7

Now I have a question, why didn't the Alfred P Murrah building collapse on itself after sustaining SUBSTANTIALLY more damage than WTC7

Alfred P. Murrah, OK (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040225/040225_mcveigh_hlg9a.hlarge.jpg)

amazing you believe this building could fall in on itself from only a fire

[Qdrop]

gee, Let's think...

Buildings fall in a clean and orderly fashion just like a controlled demolition due to "fire" all the time

The building fell in on itself into it's own footprint, It didn't topple over, it didn't lose portions of it's facade, the whole thing just "fell"

this is a miraculous collapse from only fire

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc7.html#new

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/videos/index.html#building7

Now I have a question, why didn't the Alfred P Murrah building collapse on itself after sustaining SUBSTANTIALLY more damage than WTC7

Alfred P. Murrah, OK (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040225/040225_mcveigh_hlg9a.hlarge.jpg)

amazing you believe this building could fall in on itself from only a fire

jesus:

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_pulled.html

"A similar argument is used elsewhere, whenever someone suggests Silverstein could have meant "pull people away from the building". Aha, goes the response, but look: demolition contractors only use the term "pull it" to mean "demolish the building".

This equating of “pull it” and “demolish” is common, and some sites list examples which they suggest prove their point (see http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/wtc7/pullit.html, for instance). However, that same page also contains the following quotes referring to the firefighters (our emphasis on the words in bold), so this is far from a conclusive argument.."

"In a further complication, another site suggests “pull it” isn’t commonly used slang for demolition anyway. And even if it is, Larry Silverstein is not a demolition contractor, neither was the fire department chief, so why should we assume they’d be using slang demolition terms?

We have other issues with this as an interpretation. Note that Silverstein says "they made that decision to pull", for instance -- the Fire Department. If "pull" means "demolish", then he's saying the Fire Department may not have decided to bring the building down if they couldn't contain the fire, but because it was beyond them, they decided to blow it up. Does this make sense? Not in the slightest.

Problem #1, Silverstein is suggesting that the decision to demolish the building was optional. It might not have happened. Does this fit with the idea of a convenient insurance scam? No, not at all.

Problem #2, why would the Fire Department willingly agree to engage in a multi-million dollar insurance fraud?

Problem #3, and since when do Fire Departments blow up buildings anyway?

Problem #4, and if it's so obvious that WTC7 was demolished, then why are the insurance companies not suing Silverstein for fraud?

You could argue that this is just Silverstein’s cover story, he didn’t really mean all that, he wasn’t speaking to the Fire Department, but then the situation is becoming even more complicated. What are we supposed to believe: that he accidentally let slip the truth in “pull it”, while lying elsewhere? What is the basis for picking out two words in this account as true, and dismissing most of the others?

We prefer a simpler solution. And if "pull it" means "pull people away from the building", then the problems certainly fall away. This decision to pull really is optional, for instance (they could decide to try and fight it, or not). And it's a decision that could, and would be made by the Fire Department. With this interpretation we don't have to pick out some words, or throw any others away, and the answer actually makes sense."

TAKE 5 FUCKIN MINUTES AND READ THAT LINK!
SHIT IT WAS ALREADY POSTED IN THIS THREAD!

ALSO:
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_fire.html

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_damage.html

[kaiser soze]

and in response ( no explicitives, caps, or jesus needed )

Other buildings on fire that didn't collapse

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm

MASSIVE FIRE in Madrid...building still standing after 2 days (http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/madrid_burning.jpg)

[Qdrop]

and in response ( no explicitives, caps, or jesus needed )

Other buildings on fire that didn't collapse

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm

MASSIVE FIRE in Madrid...building still standing after 2 days (http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/madrid_burning.jpg)

so that's your logic? "these buildings had massive fires...they didn't collapase! WTC7 must have been blown up!"

what of the the differant architecture, building materials, heat level?
you need to take these things into account.

[kaiser soze]

I sure do take building materials into consideration.....so I guess WTC7 was made of lincoln logs and paper.

Very clear Video of WTC7 collapsing, quite reminiscent of a controlled demolition (http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/video%20archive/wtc-7_collapse.mpa)

Notice the squib like discharges rolling up the front of the building and out the right side corner (where no apparent damage from the WTC collapse and fire had occurred)

Show me another building other than the WTC that has collapsed in such a clean and orderly fashion

[Qdrop]

I sure do take building materials into consideration.....so I guess WTC7 was made of lincoln logs and paper.

Very clear Video of WTC7 collapsing, quite reminiscent of a controlled demolition (http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/video%20archive/wtc-7_collapse.mpa)

Notice the squib like discharges rolling up the front of the building and out the right side corner (where no apparent damage from the WTC collapse and fire had occurred)

Show me another building other than the WTC that has collapsed in such a clean and orderly fashion

#1, how was this image produced? “Enhancing” video footage is a very subjective business, making it wise to compare pictures like this with the source material.

#2, when did the “squibs” really appear? The claim above doesn’t say exactly, and for good reason. Look at the original footage and you can see the building is falling for some time before they pop up.

#3, everyone who writes about this makes it seem like these images could only be produced from explosives. Look at the video, though, and you’ll see the building deform, causing windows to break, just as the “squibs” appear. So how do we know they weren’t caused in a similar way? Take a look for yourself.

And #4, presumably these “squibs” are supposed to be throwing smoke and material out of the windows. So why is it that the video shows the “squibs” staying in more or less the same place relative to the building, even as it’s falling? It looks like there’s more smoke ejected from regular broken windows than these supposed demolition charges.

Put it all together, then, and the “squibs” appear after WTC7 has begun to fall, as floors sag across the building, and at almost exactly the same time as this effect causes other windows to break. As these also appear to eject more material than the “squibs”, then the most plausible explanation is they’re nothing more than windows breaking as the building falls.

[D_Raay]

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=11627

Former German Minister of Defense Says Building 7 Used To Run 9/11 Attack, Guide the planes in, then destroy the crime scene

Former Helmut Schmidt cabinet member, 25-year German Parliamentarian and global intelligence expert Andreas Von Bülow says that the 9/11 attack was run by the highest levels of the US intelligence apparatus using WTC Building 7 as a command bunker which was later demolished in order to destroy the crime scene.

[Qdrop]

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=11627

Former German Minister of Defense Says Building 7 Used To Run 9/11 Attack, Guide the planes in, then destroy the crime scene

Former Helmut Schmidt cabinet member, 25-year German Parliamentarian and global intelligence expert Andreas Von Bülow says that the 9/11 attack was run by the highest levels of the US intelligence apparatus using WTC Building 7 as a command bunker which was later demolished in order to destroy the crime scene.

every single talking point that he makes in that article has been completely debunked and mis-information or straight lies.

yet those same "points" keep coming up....dogmatic bullshit.

more "dancing around the calf".

[HAL 9000]

This Von Bulow makes the point that these guys could barely fly a Cessna so how could they fly a Boeing?

This has been discussed before on this forum but having flown light aircraft myself, I would be pretty confident that I could fly a passenger aircraft well enough to hit a building.

The hard part is landing and navigating the rest is quite straight forward. Extremely straightforward if one is ignoring protocol and safety procedures.

I really do not buy into this conspiracy idea. There are just too many problems with it. A lot of people throwing a lot of mud and hoping something will stick.

[D_Raay]

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm

The idea is, not that the planes were flown in, but that they were operating under remote control.

Two USS cruisers were stationed at Long Island conveniently enough, and several photos show a helicoptor in the air near the towers up to two hours after the first impact. There is also a photo of a vapor trail, possibly from a jet, after the second impact.

And I have yet to hear an explanation for this (http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/09/WTC.html) or this. (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has%5C)

The US military has spent billions of dollars developing stealth aircraft which are invisible to radar so they can mount surprise attacks on adversaries, but it seems they should have saved their money and bought a fleet of airliners because they appear to be far more effective.

On 9/11 the world's only military superpower was apparently oblivious to the location of rogue airliners in it's airspace for over an hour, and military commanders were left perplexed on how to deal with the situation of hijackers using these planes as flying bombs. This confusion resulted in fighter jets flying around aimlessly whilst the hierarchy fully assessed what was going on, and this total lack of cohesion ultimately led to the loss of nearly 3000 lives.

All that was required to overcome America's military might on 9/11 were 19 hijackers on 4 airliners.

Does this sound plausible to you?

[Qdrop]

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm

The idea is, not that the planes were flown in, but that they were operating under remote control.

Two USS cruisers were stationed at Long Island conveniently enough, and several photos show a helicoptor in the air near the towers up to two hours after the first impact. There is also a photo of a vapor trail, possibly from a jet, after the second impact.

"Problem #1 is the major modifications that would be necessary to the plane, and the control system. You’d need some form of feedback to show the “remote controller” what was going on, perhaps several cameras, then a transmission system to send that fedback, and receive commands. All to be achieved without anyone noticing.

But that’s only the first issue. Consider this press conference reply from American General Ronald Keys:

Q: Referencing the E-10, if we can control a Predator from Nevada, why do we need to put a battle staff airborne in the E-10?

General Keys: Well, you can control them, but for example, we missed shooting down a MiG-25 during the war because of the latency in the system. We had the Hellfire-armed Predator up and the MiG-25 was coming in to intercept and we had him locked up, but by the time we had fired the missile, he had started his turn and so he broke lock. The reason was there's about a several second delay in the latency.
http://www.afa.org/Media/scripts/Keys_AWS05.asp

The “latency” the General refers to here is the delay any remote controlled plane faces. To take an example of flying into the Pentagon, what would happen if you appear to be coming in too low? First, there would be a delay while the cameras on board the plane processed the image. There’s then a delay while the image is transmitted, and another while it’s displayed to the remote pilot. There’s a natural delay while he reacts to the situation, then another in transmitting his commands back to the plane, and another while it adjusts the control surfaces accordingly.

How long is this delay, in total? The general says “several” seconds, and that’s based on current technology, not anything available in 2001. But let’s be generous, and say the latency adds just an extra two seconds to a pilots response time. What does that mean for the 9/11 flights?

A little math begins to make it clear. At a flight speed of 500 mph, say, our planes would be covering 733.33 feet per second. In other words, even on our generously low estimate, they would fly 1466.33 feet, heading for a third of a mile, before they could possibly even begin react to anything the remote pilot has seen. Any sudden reactions in the final fraction of a second, as has been claimed at the WTC, just don’t look possible by remote control. In fact, they more than anything indicate the presence of a real, live pilot flying the aircraft."

what this means, D....is that they were not flown by remote control.
what this means, D....is that you should own up to that and not mention it again in a week.
but you will.

like a dogmatic, religious zealot who continues to tout creationism long after his regurgitated theories get torn apart.
stubborn faith over reason.

[DroppinScience]

This is a pretty good article that compiles every single 9/11-related conspiracy theory in one spot and compiles the different points of view (i.e. whether you'd believe the government was either incompetent, allowed the attack to happen or made the attack happen).

http://nymag.com/news/features/16464/index.html

Interesting stuff.

Oh and there's also this...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/03/29/notes032906.DTL&type=printable

[HAL 9000]

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm

The idea is, not that the planes were flown in, but that they were operating under remote control.

Two USS cruisers were stationed at Long Island conveniently enough, and several photos show a helicoptor in the air near the towers up to two hours after the first impact. There is also a photo of a vapor trail, possibly from a jet, after the second impact.

And I have yet to hear an explanation for this (http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/09/WTC.html) or this. (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has%5C)

The US military has spent billions of dollars developing stealth aircraft which are invisible to radar so they can mount surprise attacks on adversaries, but it seems they should have saved their money and bought a fleet of airliners because they appear to be far more effective.

On 9/11 the world's only military superpower was apparently oblivious to the location of rogue airliners in it's airspace for over an hour, and military commanders were left perplexed on how to deal with the situation of hijackers using these planes as flying bombs. This confusion resulted in fighter jets flying around aimlessly whilst the hierarchy fully assessed what was going on, and this total lack of cohesion ultimately led to the loss of nearly 3000 lives.

All that was required to overcome America's military might on 9/11 were 19 hijackers on 4 airliners.

Does this sound plausible to you?

Regarding the autopsy evidence, this is puzzling but I would hesitate to infer so much into this discrepancy. There are other explanations, not least of which is human error.

I find the idea of remote controlled planes odd; it begs so many questions, who installed this technology into the planes, when and how? What were the pilots doing? Did they try to radio for help when they lost control of the plane? Were there no pilots on board? Why use remote control when you could find plenty of people to brainwash into doing this?

Flying a plane remote control sounds tricky too. You would probably be better off using a automatic GPS system, but that presents new problems.

Then there are the links about the Israelis – the second is interesting but it does as much to disprove the government conspiracy angle as it does the official story. Why would someone working on the plot tip off two people in the tower? If the government conspirators could not be controlled from tipping off the public, then it seems odd that the gov has kept a lid subsequently on the thousands and thousands of people who must be involved in this plot.

Finally, the idea that the US military could be thwarted by a low tech adversary seems absolutely plausible to me. Why not? These fat cats were bloated and complacent, they didn’t see it coming and if they did they didn’t believe it it could happen. Technical advancement is a product of an military based on manufacturing toys and spending budgets, it does not infer a military that is ready to deal with a crises (I dont thnk).

I do not believe that this administration is capable of this. Not that they are not evil enough, because they are, but that they are too incompetent to pull off anything like this. This is not X Files, this is real life and in real life, the last president couldn’t keep the fact he slept with an intern quiet – how is this administration going to silence all those people involved in this? It couldn’t.

Even if an administration thought that it might be able to pull this off, that is not good enough – they would have to be sure. Sure, that not one of the conspirators would sell their story for the millions it would earn them and sure that some piece of forensic evidence didn’t 'get out'. The risks and rewards are all wrong, it doesn’t make sense.

[kaiser soze]

The hard part is landing and navigating the rest is quite straight forward. Extremely straightforward if one is ignoring protocol and safety procedures.



I agree taking off and landing would be difficult, but HOW did these people navigate these jets hundreds of miles to zero in on 2 buildings in a city?

P.S.

We must also further investigate why PUTS options on many companies (including the 2 airlines ) were sold minutes before/during the attacks. Coincidence?

[Qdrop]

Regarding the autopsy evidence, this is puzzling but I would hesitate to infer so much into this discrepancy. There are other explanations, not least of which is human error.

I find the idea of remote controlled planes odd; it begs so many questions, who installed this technology into the planes, when and how? What were the pilots doing? Did they try to radio for help when they lost control of the plane? Were there no pilots on board? Why use remote control when you could find plenty of people to brainwash into doing this?

Flying a plane remote control sounds tricky too. You would probably be better off using a automatic GPS system, but that presents new problems.

Then there are the links about the Israelis – the second is interesting but it does as much to disprove the government conspiracy angle as it does the official story. Why would someone working on the plot tip off two people in the tower? If the government conspirators could not be controlled from tipping off the public, then it seems odd that the gov has kept a lid subsequently on the thousands and thousands of people who must be involved in this plot.

Finally, the idea that the US military could be thwarted by a low tech adversary seems absolutely plausible to me. Why not? These fat cats were bloated and complacent, they didn’t see it coming and if they did they didn’t believe it it could happen. Technical advancement is a product of an military based on manufacturing toys and spending budgets, it does not infer a military that is ready to deal with a crises (I dont thnk).

I do not believe that this administration is capable of this. Not that they are not evil enough, because they are, but that they are too incompetent to pull off anything like this. This is not X Files, this is real life and in real life, the last president couldn’t keep the fact he slept with an intern quiet – how is this administration going to silence all those people involved in this? It couldn’t.

Even if an administration thought that it might be able to pull this off, that is not good enough – they would have to be sure. Sure, that not one of the conspirators would sell their story for the millions it would earn them and sure that some piece of forensic evidence didn’t 'get out'. The risks and rewards are all wrong, it doesn’t make sense.

ahh...the sound of reason.
(y)

[Qdrop]

We must also further investigate why PUTS options on many companies (including the 2 airlines ) were sold minutes before/during the attacks. Coincidence?

"Although there were high volumes traded on these days, for instance, they weren’t as exceptionally high as some sites like to claim.
There were very good reasons to sell American Airlines shares, too, as they’d just announced a string of bad news.

United Airlines stocks were falling in price, too. If investors anticipated they were about to release bad results then their put options would also be worth buying (although keep in mind that the UAL put volumes weren’t the highest in the year anyway).

The 9/11 Commission Report mentions this issue in its notes to Chapter 5:

"A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10...

Similarly, much of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10th was traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, which recommended these trades".

Some suggest they should have paid more attention to it, but we’re not entirely sure why. As you can see from the other links here, the UAL trades weren’t exceptional, and there was news to justify the sale of American Airlines shares. Foreknowledge of 9/11 isn’t required to explain these trades."

not really all that fishy if you do just a fraction of research.

Kaiser, did you really think it was fishy....or were you just TOLD that they were fishy and believed it?

[HAL 9000]

I agree taking off and landing would be difficult, but HOW did these people navigate these jets hundreds of miles to zero in on 2 buildings in a city?

P.S.

We must also further investigate why PUTS options on many companies (including the 2 airlines ) were sold minutes before/during the attacks. Coincidence?


The navigation point is certainly a valid one, it is by far the most 'impressive' of the skills displayed by the hijackers. However, in the case of the WTC you are talking about the most visible target for miles around. Also a simple GPS that would cost $100 would probably enable you to get where you want to be.

Finding and hitting the Pentagon would have been harder (although not that hard with some sat nav/GPS kit).

[D_Raay]

Regarding the autopsy evidence, this is puzzling but I would hesitate to infer so much into this discrepancy. There are other explanations, not least of which is human error.

I find the idea of remote controlled planes odd; it begs so many questions, who installed this technology into the planes, when and how? What were the pilots doing? Did they try to radio for help when they lost control of the plane? Were there no pilots on board? Why use remote control when you could find plenty of people to brainwash into doing this?

Flying a plane remote control sounds tricky too. You would probably be better off using a automatic GPS system, but that presents new problems.

Then there are the links about the Israelis – the second is interesting but it does as much to disprove the government conspiracy angle as it does the official story. Why would someone working on the plot tip off two people in the tower? If the government conspirators could not be controlled from tipping off the public, then it seems odd that the gov has kept a lid subsequently on the thousands and thousands of people who must be involved in this plot.

Finally, the idea that the US military could be thwarted by a low tech adversary seems absolutely plausible to me. Why not? These fat cats were bloated and complacent, they didn’t see it coming and if they did they didn’t believe it it could happen. Technical advancement is a product of an military based on manufacturing toys and spending budgets, it does not infer a military that is ready to deal with a crises (I dont thnk).

I do not believe that this administration is capable of this. Not that they are not evil enough, because they are, but that they are too incompetent to pull off anything like this. This is not X Files, this is real life and in real life, the last president couldn’t keep the fact he slept with an intern quiet – how is this administration going to silence all those people involved in this? It couldn’t.

Even if an administration thought that it might be able to pull this off, that is not good enough – they would have to be sure. Sure, that not one of the conspirators would sell their story for the millions it would earn them and sure that some piece of forensic evidence didn’t 'get out'. The risks and rewards are all wrong, it doesn’t make sense.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I am by no means sold on our government being involved in the plot, and you make some valid points.

To tell you the truth, I find it fascinating the amount of information that is readily available- with more mounting each day. There is a small movement within this country that actually believes that the government was either a). directly involved; or b). they let it happen.

The people of New York city itself are the most skeptical of the official explanation with more than a majority, and it happened in their back yard.

I like to fuel the flames of this fire because , at the very least, this government is grossly incompetent and has proven that they can't protect us from terrorists any more than they can from a hurricane, and quite frankly they need to go. The fact that they are still there and were re-elected is quite embarassing to the country.

In the absence of justice, what is sovereignty but organized robbery?

[D_Raay]

Diarrhea of the mouth; constipation of the ideas.

what this means, D....is that they were not flown by remote control.
what this means, D....is that you should own up to that and not mention it again in a week.
but you will.

like a dogmatic, religious zealot who continues to tout creationism long after his regurgitated theories get torn apart.
stubborn faith over reason.

What that means is although you seem capable of "looking shit up", you are hardly capable of forming a logical or coherent argument on your own. Especially when you start referring to me as a "religious zealot".

I think flying planes into a building was a faith-based initiative. I think religion is a neurological disorder.

As for my "faith"- I'll tell you one thing -I am quite certain that the Bush administration is very bad for the country, and I wouldn't put anything past them. Have they ever given anyone a reason to doubt that philosophy?
True or not, the information should be looked at. If you want to make it personal and try to half ass insult people who are investigating such things for the good of us all (yes even you), then maybe you should find some overalls and some Hubba Bubba and head back to the playground.

[kaiser soze]

it's sad to say, the one thing that will potentially take these thugs out of office are the gas prices

I'm so thankful bush paid more attention to My Pet Goat rather than the August PDB

[Qdrop]

What that means is although you seem capable of "looking shit up", yeah, give it a try.

you are hardly capable of forming a logical or coherent argument on your own. HA! based on what? what illogical or incoherant comments by me are you speaking of? either specifically list them or your attacks default to baseless gossip.

Especially when you start referring to me as a "religious zealot". i said "LIKE" a religious zealot, you retard.
likening your inability to depart with a ludicrous theory, even in the face of conflicting evidence...simply because you value your agenda (hatred for the Bush regime) over facts and logic.


As for my "faith"- I'll tell you one thing -I am quite certain that the Bush administration is very bad for the country, and I wouldn't put anything past them. Have they ever given anyone a reason to doubt that philosophy? i think the majority of the country agrees with you, D. i do.
bush and his regime are inept and corrupt.
the evidence is in plain site for all to see.

there is no need to concoct/support fake conspiracy theories to bring about his downfall.
True or not, the information should be looked at. it has been. numerous times. the theories have virtually all been dismantled. it's over.
you missed the boat.

If you want to make it personal and try to half ass insult people who are investigating such things for the good of us all (yes even you), you're here to save us ALL with your defacto support of half-baked conspiracy theories?
oh thank you D....how can we ever repay you?
self-righteous ass.

[D_Raay]

I wasn't referring to me; I was referring to the many who fund research and operate sites and radio shows and work hard at investigating this event. It doesn't sit well with alot of people, including some who lost loved ones.

If there was a chance that any of these "conspiracies" were true, you're goddam
right they should be investigated at nausea.

The only self righteous prick here is you. You argue for the sake of getting off on yourself, and your ignorance is glaring.

[Qdrop]

If there was a chance that any of these "conspiracies" were true, you're goddam
right they should be investigated at nausea. they have.
now at what point do they stop?

The only self righteous prick here is you. You argue for the sake of getting off on yourself, and your ignorance is glaring. empty rhetoric.

water.duck's.back.

[wrongwayandugg]

jesus:

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_pulled.html

"A similar argument is used elsewhere, whenever someone suggests Silverstein could have meant "pull people away from the building". Aha, goes the response, but look: demolition contractors only use the term "pull it" to mean "demolish the building".

This equating of “pull it” and “demolish” is common, and some sites list examples which they suggest prove their point (see http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/wtc7/pullit.html, for instance). However, that same page also contains the following quotes referring to the firefighters (our emphasis on the words in bold), so this is far from a conclusive argument.."

"In a further complication, another site suggests “pull it” isn’t commonly used slang for demolition anyway. And even if it is, Larry Silverstein is not a demolition contractor, neither was the fire department chief, so why should we assume they’d be using slang demolition terms?


I always thought "pulling a building" was common slang. I knew about it and I've never worked on a construction site per se.

This all seems like lawyer-talk to me. Example: John Ashcroft's, "There is no Patriot Act 2." Technically, it is called the "Domestic Security Enhancement Act."

[wrongwayandugg]

The people want it badly, (http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/20060522/bs_prweb/prweb388743_4) but don't count on Fox or any other "news" source in the U.S. to tell you about it.

[kaiser soze]

Firemen - "There's a bomb in the building, start clearing out."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4574366633014832928&q=bomb+in+the+building

[Funkaloyd]

There were a few reports of car bombs on the day. This may not be any different.

[Qdrop]

Firemen - "There's a bomb in the building, start clearing out."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4574366633014832928&q=bomb+in+the+building


how many times have i posted this link now?
http://www.911myths.com/html/accounts_of_explosions.html

seriously....the 9/11 conspiracy is like a fuckin religion to you people...it's not about facts or rationale....it's about FAITH. you just have FAITH that it was a conspiracy....you WANT to believe. and nothing will get in the way of that.

[kaiser soze]

you are correct

I have faith in the NYFD