Your Favorite Rapper's Favorite Rapper

[mickill]

Here (http://www.mtv.com/bands/h/hip_hop_week/2006/emcees/index15.jhtml?)

MTV's own list from a couple of weeks ago:

1. Jay-Z
2. Tupac
3. Notorious B.I.G.
4. Rakim
5. Nas
6. KRS-One
7. Big Daddy Kane
8. Ice Cube
9. Eminem
10.LL Cool J

Link (http://www.mtv.com/bands/h/hip_hop_week/2006/emcees/index.jhtml)

These lists generally suck, and MTV isn't exactly an authority on hip hop, but it's still worth a glance, mostly to hear the opinions of the actual rappers.

Oh, and Ghostface, Slick Rick, Big Pun, Andre and Kool G Rap got "honorable mentions". Rejoice.

[Qdrop]

my list changes every other fuckin day.

i'm not sure if it's possible to intelligently rate MC's in any kinda order.

there is some rationale and logic to it....but it's always going to be hopelessly mired in opinion in the long run....particularly when accessing the differances between any two MC's close to each other on the list.

i mean...i think most would rationally agree that jaz z is more skilled and important then PM Dawn....
but what about JayZ vs. NAs?
there is no "right answer"....

[Kid Presentable]

Heh. Looks like any list in this forum.

edit: what does Ice Cube have to do be inducted at VH1 Hip-Hop Honours, exclusive of NWA?

[Ally Al]

These lists generally suck, and MTV isn't exactly an authority on hip hop,


maybe not but YO MTV RAPS was still essential viewing back in the day. I don't know about where you live but it was the only real outlet to see hip hop videos and interviews over here in the UK, on the reg anyways

i couldn't compile a top ten i don't think. They all have their highs and lows. Rapping has changed to much stylewise to compare old and new

[Kid Presentable]

These lists generally suck, and MTV isn't exactly an authority on hip hop,


maybe not but YO MTV RAPS was still essential viewing back in the day. I don't know about where you live but it was the only real outlet to see hip hop videos and interviews over here in the UK, on the reg anyways

i couldn't compile a top ten i don't think. They all have their highs and lows. Rapping has changed to much stylewise to compare old and new
Getting YO MTV RAPS in NZ was a privelege; we ate up whatever they played. AT least when waht they played was shit like Release Yo Delf.

[Ally Al]

Getting YO MTV RAPS in NZ was a privelege; we ate up whatever they played. AT least when waht they played was shit like Release Yo Delf.


The wu tang one, when they were at the chess boxing video shoot was a classic

[g-mile7]

saw that, Jay-Z #1 is alright with me (unless you decide to put an * next to him since he has bit alot of rhymes ala Barry Bonds and steroids)

[Kid Presentable]

The wu tang one, when they were at the chess boxing video shoot was a classic
Yeah Yeah, and Chessboxin was in the credits? Or am I confused?

I saw Fox and Jay doin sunshine on YO MTV raps. I am the only person who liked it.

It was good to have a cultural context. We had 'Wreckognize' as well, which was like a local version hosted by DLT and DJ SirVere (two legendary N.Z cats), but in a nerdy way it was nice to check whether or not we were up to speed with what was hot across the pond. 9 times out 10 we were. Only problem now is that as a result (perhaps) Australasian hip-hop sounds like the 90's tribute hour. I can't wait for it to progress.

[g-mile7]

Here (http://www.mtv.com/bands/h/hip_hop_week/2006/emcees/index15.jhtml?)

MTV's own list from a couple of weeks ago:

1. Jay-Z
2. Tupac
3. Notorious B.I.G.
4. Rakim
5. Nas
6. KRS-One
7. Big Daddy Kane
8. Ice Cube
9. Eminem
10.LL Cool J

Link (http://www.mtv.com/bands/h/hip_hop_week/2006/emcees/index.jhtml)

These lists generally suck, and MTV isn't exactly an authority on hip hop, but it's still worth a glance, mostly to hear the opinions of the actual rappers.

Oh, and Ghostface, Slick Rick, Big Pun, Andre and Kool G Rap got "honorable mentions". Rejoice.


same top 3 as BET's a few years back only with Jigga being 2 and Pac being 1.....it's just the times there are long periods where everyone was saying it was Biggie then long periods of 2Pac now it's all bout Jay-Z now.....soon it will Nas but I rather them put Rakim more as number #1. Although Pac's my GOAT as well as favorite rapper, there would be less drama and debate if people just put the God as number 1, make alot more people happy(although you could say the same bout Biggie and espcially Pac).

Can't really debate this list, it's bullshit to do it.

[roosta]

2pac should not be near that list.

[g-mile7]

2pac should not be near that list.


2pac hater:(

[Kid Presentable]

P.S: M.C Serch lost.

[roosta]

i dont hate 2pac, I just think he's the one of the most over-rated artists in music history.

He could rap well, and write rhymes ill give him that, but as a musician he was seriously flawed. The majority of his output was on shite watered-down beats and he was one of the biggest hypocrites hip-hop has ever produced (and that's saying something).

[Ally Al]

He could rap well, and write rhymes ill give him that, but as a musician he was seriously flawed. The majority of his output was on shite watered-down beats and he was one of the biggest hypocrites hip-hop has ever produced (and that's saying something).[/QUOTE]


i'd go with this. i like a handful of pac tracks but i just don't get the adoration of this dude. i have friends who's musical judgement i would never doubt and they fucking LOVE pac. i don't get it personally.

[Kid Presentable]

i'd go with this. i like a handful of pac tracks but i just don't get the adoration of this dude. i have friends who's musical judgement i would never doubt and they fucking LOVE pac. i don't get it personally.

It's the same thing with the Beasties, though. Some people look at me like 'Beastie Boys' means 'Star Trek'.

[Ally Al]

Yeah Yeah, and Chessboxin was in the credits? Or am I confused?

.

It was good to have a cultural context. We had 'Wreckognize' as well, which was like a local version hosted by DLT and DJ SirVere (two legendary N.Z cats), but in a nerdy way it was nice to check whether or not we were up to speed with what was hot across the pond. 9 times out 10 we were. Only problem now is that as a result (perhaps) Australasian hip-hop sounds like the 90's tribute hour. I can't wait for it to progress.


it was the one with fab 5 freddy going down to the video set and looking a little bit anxious at these 9 brothers with black hoodies on, quality stuff. We had a few other programmes on the bbc in the late 80's (behind the beat/ dance energi etc etc) and channel 4 did a couple (solid soul and the like) but they were'nt just hip hip shows although they did have some top quality performances by hip hop artists at the time. The only other thing i can remember is a tv show westwood used to do when we finally got 24 hour tv. On a friday night there was an all night music program called night network and he had an hour slot on that, that was 1988.

off subject, a dude from australia i speak to on another site has sent me some Oz hip hop, the herd - the sun never sets. I struggled with the accents at first but i'm diggin it now, any other tips ?

[Ally Al]

It's the same thing with the Beasties, though. Some people look at me like 'Beastie Boys' means 'Star Trek'.


lol, as much as i like the beasties they still have that nerd element fan wise, i suppose that would effect the way people think about them. It confuses me that a lot people who don't listen to hip hop will listen to the beasties, i don't get that

[g-mile7]

i dont hate 2pac, I just think he's the one of the most over-rated artists in music history.

He could rap well, and write rhymes ill give him that, but as a musician he was seriously flawed. The majority of his output was on shite watered-down beats and he was one of the biggest hypocrites hip-hop has ever produced (and that's saying something).


any rapper that talks bout lifitng up the community or "I rap bout this cuz that what the hood want but its not the right thing to do" is a hypocrite, to just point at Pac is flawed not to mention he did do alot of the community (more then most of these rappers) he was the most vocal and closet thing to a leader we, as black people and young hip-hop fans, had to a leader (he was cut short by the people he associated with). You need to watch 2Pac:Resurrection a really good movie that adresses the majority of the criticisms that are made against him. ]I have said in the past I wouldn't try and debate or defend Pac on this bias board anymore, but you roosta are cool with me and I know that what I am saying isn't going to be swated down with "well he rhymed the same words" weak arguments like that. The beats he had such as "Dear Mama", "California Love" "I ain't Mad at Cha" etc. were as emotional as his lyrics plus if lyricism is putting thought into your lyrics (not just laffy taffy type of rhymes) then 2pac was one of the greatest based on his content(not just the ablity to rhyme big words but paint stories that make some sense) and it's verstlity(people mistake flow as a mark for lyricism if thats the case Twista or Bizze Bone would be tops). People mistake versitlity as being a hypocrite, note that songs like Keep Your Head Up or I Get Around were aimed at specfic types of women or about spefic types of women. Any logical person knows that not every women is a hoe, but there are some out there that are deserving of the title. Not every women is a saint. I think there is an interview on that movie with Pac explaing this. Most rappers, as musicians, are flawed to being with, but as an artist he was on top of his trade. Even in movies were he is one of the few hip-hop stars to be a critically acclaimed actor. One of the main reasons he is ranked so high is the impact he made on the game. Why take into account his personel life or his beats?If it's supposd to be about the lyrics and the fact that he has influenced people from the US, Downunda and even Africa (millions of fans and only about a thousand nay sayers) then that should show who he is.


Not to mention that most rappers, critics would agree with the fans. Keep in mind who he's impacted in the game on that list (Jay,Nas,Em, and some would say Biggie). Saying that Pac doesnt deserve to be on this list is like saying Nas deserves to be on this list more then Rakim. Let alone in front of him. It's even been said that 2pac was influneced greatly by Ice Cube (not to mentio Chuck D and Scarface)

[CrankItUp!]

Ice T is every rapper's favorite rapper. (y)

[g-mile7]

Ice T is every rapper's favorite rapper. (y)


I love Ice T(thats the shit right there...colors, colors, colors and New Jack City the movie), but you could say he is a hypocrite:) (how you gonna make a song liek Cop Killa then play a cop not once, but twice!?)

[roosta]

any rapper that talks bout lifitng up the community or "I rap bout this cuz that what the hood want but its not the right thing to do" is a hypocrite, to just point at Pac is flawed not to mention he did do alot of the community (more then most of these rappers) he was the most vocal and closet thing to a leader we, as black people and young hip-hop fans, had to a leader (he was cut short by the people he associated with). You need to watch 2Pac:Resurrection a really good movie that adresses the majority of the criticisms that are made against him. ]I have said in the past I wouldn't try and debate or defend Pac on this bias board anymore, but you roosta are cool with me and I know that what I am saying isn't going to be swated down with "well he rhymed the same words" weak arguments like that. The beats he had such as "Dear Mama", "California Love" "I ain't Mad at Cha" etc. were as emotional as his lyrics plus if lyricism is putting thought into your lyrics (not just laffy taffy type of rhymes) then 2pac was one of the greatest based on his content(not just the ablity to rhyme big words but paint stories that make some sense) and it's verstlity(people mistake flow as a mark for lyricism if thats the case Twista or Bizze Bone would be tops). People mistake versitlity as being a hypocrite, note that songs like Keep Your Head Up or I Get Around were aimed at specfic types of women or about spefic types of women. Any logical person knows that not every women is a hoe, but there are some out there that are deserving of the title. Not every women is a saint. I think there is an interview on that movie with Pac explaing this. Most rappers, as musicians, are flawed to being with, but as an artist he was on top of his trade. Even in movies were he is one of the few hip-hop stars to be a critically acclaimed actor. One of the main reasons he is ranked so high is the impact he made on the game. Why take into account his personel life or his beats?If it's supposd to be about the lyrics and the fact that he has influenced people from the US, Downunda and even Africa (millions of fans and only about a thousand nay sayers) then that should show who he is.


Not to mention that most rappers, critics would agree with the fans. Keep in mind who he's impacted in the game on that list (Jay,Nas,Em, and some would say Biggie). Saying that Pac doesnt deserve to be on this list is like saying Nas deserves to be on this list more then Rakim. Let alone in front of him. It's even been said that 2pac was influneced greatly by Ice Cube (not to mentio Chuck D and Scarface)

fair enough, but some of your defenses only go to prove my point. You point out the handful of well produced tracks he rhymed on. But for every "California Love" theres a million weak sparse sub-g-funk beats behind him.

You say "why take into account his personal life"...well, G-mile, i didnt. The hypocrite label was more or less about his lyrics. And you still don't really address the hypocrite label well enough. If he was the closest thing you got to having a leader, then i feel sorry for your generation. Theres no possible way he could present himself as a positive, concious leader because whilst he undoubtedly produced intelligent, postive songs, these were always countered with both extreme sexism and a complete childishness (e.g. his battle with the whole of New York.)

And going beyond that, and back to my original point. He was a poor musician. And as a lyricist? Average.

[g-mile7]

fair enough, but some of your defenses only go to prove my point. You point out the handful of well produced tracks he rhymed on. But for every "California Love" theres a million weak sparse sub-g-funk beats behind him.

You say "why take into account his personal life"...well, G-mile, i didnt. The hypocrite label was more or less about his lyrics. And you still don't really address the hypocrite label well enough. If he was the closest thing you got to having a leader, then i feel sorry for your generation. Theres no possible way he could present himself as a positive, concious leader because whilst he undoubtedly produced intelligent, postive songs, these were always countered with both extreme sexism and a complete childishness (e.g. his battle with the whole of New York.)

And going beyond that, and back to my original point. He was a poor musician. And as a lyricist? Average.


First off he wasn't going against all of NEw York, I mean he had Redman and Method Man on All Eyez on Me....he wanted to sign Wu-Tang to his Makeveli label as well as Big Daddy Kane (which he did a song with thats unrealesed). He also was planning a One Nation LP to show the unity between East/West (fet Cocoa Brovas, Boot Camp Cliq). He has issues with Biggie who he felt did him wrong.Not childish, if you felt that your close friend left you for dead pretty much then you might have been mad too(and keep in mind the streets tralk alot more then we know, who knows what Pac heard...most people that have read all the things realetd to his 94 shooting almost agree that Biggie might have known that Pac was goin be "put in his place") G-Funk? 2pac never did the G-Funk era beats to begin with only track I cant think of Cant See Me off of All Eyez on me which features George Clinton....many people think he had great beats just depedns on your taste of hip-hop. Extreme sexism? Sure he had sex in his songs but those songs were only a few if not any (depending on what you define as extreme sexism). Once again, I need not to defend him as a person. Yes, you are right he was a hypocricte to an extent (and I said this) but he wasn't any worst then any other rapper in the game (even Mos Def is one). The label you said has to do with his life given that the songs he did were about things he has wintessed or his views. He was and had everything that was needed in a leader, I said he could've been one if he focused more on this part of his life. Just have to listen to hsi interviews to see the similarities bewteen him and X. You did; however, not adress the impact point as well as contridicted your self in terms of saying he made postive, good songs.....to make a good song you would believe you need some level of mastery over lyricism. He was above average lyricist.

[roosta]

i never contradicted myself. nowhere has it ever been said you need to "master lyricism" to be postive. "Have a nice day" is positive...

Your taking my points FAR to literally, G-mile...

[g-mile7]

i never contradicted myself. nowhere has it ever been said you need to "master lyricism" to be postive. "Have a nice day" is positive...

Your taking my points FAR to literally, G-mile...


he undoubtedly produced intelligent, postive songs,



intelligence is a refelction of lyricism my friend, but whatever man let's just end this either way I am not going change your mind or you to me (since I have heard many of the points you have made before, valid points but still the most common ones when people discuss Pac in a negative light). I told you your cool with me, I hope the feelings mutal :D

[roosta]

intelligence is a refelction of lyricism my friend, but whatever man let's just end this either way I am not going change your mind or you to me (since I have heard many of the points you have made before, valid points but still the most common ones when people discuss Pac in a negative light). I told you your cool with me, I hope the feelings mutal :D

its nothing to do with us being cool with each other, its simply debating something. dont take it personal, just stand your ground!

im still not convinced he did anything to merit being in that list with those people.

[g-mile7]

Your taking my points FAR to literally, G-mile...

led me to believe that YOU were starting to take it the wrong way son.... no need to continue deabting this point I have stood my ground (right now and in past threads).



Not to mention that most rappers, critics would agree with the fans. Keep in mind who he's impacted in the game on that list (Jay,Nas,Em, and some would say Biggie). Saying that Pac doesnt deserve to be on this list is like saying Nas deserves to be on this list more then Rakim. Let alone in front of him. It's even been said that 2pac was influneced greatly by Ice Cube (not to mentio Chuck D and Scarface)

If his peers even showed him respect and acknowledge him as one of the greats. Even the people in the list have gave him his props and I think they, of any fan of hip-hop, know hip-hop.

[Kid Presentable]

it was the one with fab 5 freddy going down to the video set and looking a little bit anxious at these 9 brothers with black hoodies on, quality stuff. We had a few other programmes on the bbc in the late 80's (behind the beat/ dance energi etc etc) and channel 4 did a couple (solid soul and the like) but they were'nt just hip hip shows although they did have some top quality performances by hip hop artists at the time. The only other thing i can remember is a tv show westwood used to do when we finally got 24 hour tv. On a friday night there was an all night music program called night network and he had an hour slot on that, that was 1988.

off subject, a dude from australia i speak to on another site has sent me some Oz hip hop, the herd - the sun never sets. I struggled with the accents at first but i'm diggin it now, any other tips ?
The Herd is great. I think so, anyway. Look for Hilltop Hoods and Downsyde. I say look for, because I don't have any.:o

[Auton]

2pac had good beats. not to mention the fact that just because someone has to rhyme over wack beats it means they're a bad musician. if we're going by that, then gza sucks too

[Auton]

and rappers arent musicians to begin with

[g-mile7]

and rappers arent musicians to begin with


I had said that before(Most rappers, as musicians, are flawed to being with) but he still said Pac was a bad musician, c'est la vie....whatever. Not to mention he rapped over so many difffrent sounding beats....but hey people sterotype and it's hard to get them to see the other side of the field.


What distinguishes you from everybody else?

"I never thought I was the best rapper-the best nothin'. I think I'm the realest nigga out there. I do think that. I think I own that."

from his last magazine interview in '96(Vibe)...people forget that the whole talk of him being one the great ones was going on way b4 he died, it just got amplfied afterwards

[g-mile7]

1. Jay-Z

3. Notorious B.I.G.

5. Nas

7. Big Daddy Kane

9. Eminem


the fact is that these artist were known to either been impacted or respecting of Pac.

Em has gone on record as saying that he loved Pac and his songs as well as "fuck the world" attitude in his early carrer refelcted it (mentioned Pac a couple of times on record). Even remade a Pac track that many consider classic (Hail Mary) to diss Ja rule as well as was the main producer for the less then stellar (mainly cuz his beats were whack) Loyal to the Game.

Big Daddy Kane must have respected Pac enough to jump on a track with him which he is did (this track can be found on most Kazza type shits under either the "Showstoppa" or "Where ever U are".And Pac respected him enough to want to sign him and try and revive his carrer (Big daddy kane always gets shafted in mentions of the top 5)

Jay-Z and Nas (both dissed by Pac during his life) both have been on Pac's jock ever since his death (Nas has even said that the two met up in NY after the VMA's and squashed the misunderstanding). The things they have rhymed about, the constant use of the word "thug" as well as the fact that both have used 2pac in terms of there beef. The fact that at the height of the Nas/Jigga beef both Nas and Jay-z featured a 2pac influenced track on there repsected CD's.2002, God Son featured the track Thugz Manison (fet another Nas verse) that has 2pac on it. Jay-Z remade the song "Me& My Girlfriend"(another consider to be a good song) with Beyonce and feautred it on the Blueprint 2 (same beat as the orginal as well. Jay-Z has even bit 2pac once or twice before as well (an honor people thought he save for Biggie..."all I need in this world of sin is me and my girlfriend" from All I Need on the Blueprint). Nas dedicated a whole verse to Pac on "We will Survive" off of 1999's I Am as well as mentions him on songs such as "Ether" ("whose the best Pac, Nas and Big" and "Got Urself".....("me and 2pac were soliders of the same struggle").

And then there is Biggie, 2pac claimed that he helped Biggie a great deal during his development as a mainstream rapper. He goes on record as saying:

I was there, I trained the nigga.. He used to be under me like my lieutenant. I use to come to New York, I use to do shows and let the nigga come on before I did "Keep Ya Head Up" and "I Get Around" coz nobody knew the nigga in New York... And I used to tell the nigga, Yo If you wanna make your money you gotta rap for the bitches. Do not rap for the niggaz... I told the nigga, do not rap for the niggaz... rap for the bitches. The bitches will buy your records and the niggaz'll want what the bitches want. So all of a sudden he changed from being... listen to 'Party and Bullshit' Listen to his style. He changed from being that to Big Poppa because of me. And he had my album "Me Against the World" was the second one... He had the first one. I changed everything because "Ready 2 Die" came out and it sounded like my album... All my album was about dealing with death, then "Ready 2 Die" came out and I had to switch it.

Many of the tracks form this first LP he speaks on is featured on the R U Still Down Lp, now I am not saying that I 100% believe 2pac (although I sort of can see it listening to Biggie's early stuff b4 Ready to Die dropped) I find it intriguing how Biggie would go and make a double cd (whihc b4 Pac was NEVER done in the game b4) so soon after All Eyez on Me dropped(then you make a song called "Goin Back to Cali" when during the whole drama you never even set foot in Cali while Pac was all in NYC doing VMA's and Saturday Nite Live??). You can say it's because Biggie's smart and saw the money involved or whatever either way Pac was the first to blaze this path. If you say Pac was talking out his ass bout the whole biting his style, all I know is this: raekwon and even Ghostface belevied that Biggie was a biter( not just the Nas cover, Method also is quoted in the XXL making of Ready to Die as saying that they both thought this).....

All I know is this and thats why arguments like this don't even work....they only keep going because my dumb self thinks I have the power to show people a diffrent perspective but I have to realize that (no matter what some might think) I am pretty open minded and most of this board let alone world is not. But the simple end to all end is this and I quote myself

If his peers even showed him respect and acknowledge him as one of the greats. Even the people in the list have gave him his props and I think they, of any fan of hip-hop, know hip-hop.

[Gareth]

We had 'Wreckognize' as well, which was like a local version hosted by DLT and DJ SirVere (two legendary N.Z cats)

i used to slurp that show.
the wu special, and how they showed the 'you know my steez' video alot...fun times
that's when nz got mtv uk.
they had some really hot presenters.

[Kid Presentable]

i used to slurp that show.
the wu special, and how they showed the 'you know my steez' video alot...fun times
that's when nz got mtv uk.
they had some really hot presenters.
True Dat. Sara Cox on cleavage cam (come on, I was 17!)...(y)

[roosta]

right, g-mile, yes, i am cool with you and i have never, and dont have any problems with you...(let's get that out of the way) but you seem to take criticism of 2pac too personally. and it becomes a "there is a board bias against 2pac"...which becomes a "me against the board..." type argument...


All I know is this and thats why arguments like this don't even work....they only keep going because my dumb self thinks I have the power to show people a diffrent perspective but I have to realize that (no matter what some might think) I am pretty open minded and most of this board let alone world is not.

and to call people who don't like 2pac "close-minded" is just arrogant....face up to the fact that some of us (actually most of us it seems) on this board don't rate him and by all means defend your opinion, but don't call us "close-minded" or claim there is a bias. we just dont think he's that good. well, i don't.

and the implication that if we don't agree we don't know hip-hop...well.....i won't even start on that one....

[Ally Al]

Quote:
What distinguishes you from everybody else?

"I never thought I was the best rapper-the best nothin'. I think I'm the realest nigga out there. I do think that. I think I own that


see this is the thing, the realest. i've never bought into that whole thing with pac. He seemed most comfortable as that young aspiring actor we've seen. The whole thug thug thug thuggity thug thing just never rang true with me. Pac got in with the real bad boys because he thought he could hang and it made the tattoo look good and the rhymes he was slinging, but ultimately thats what cost him his life and eventually biggie's

Also without pac we wouldn't have had to suffer all the wannabe's that have appeared since.

It's just hip hop political correctness when people mention them

[g-mile7]

right, g-mile, yes, i am cool with you and i have never, and dont have any problems with you...(let's get that out of the way) but you seem to take criticism of 2pac too personally. and it becomes a "there is a board bias against 2pac"...which becomes a "me against the board..." type argument...



and to call people who don't like 2pac "close-minded" is just arrogant....face up to the fact that some of us (actually most of us it seems) on this board don't rate him and by all means defend your opinion, but don't call us "close-minded" or claim there is a bias. we just dont think he's that good. well, i don't.

and the implication that if we don't agree we don't know hip-hop...well.....i won't even start on that one....


it's not personel man I'd do the same thing with any subject I am passionate about. I didnt call anybody who doesnt like 2pac close minded, people who aren't able to even admit that there is something that makes him one of the best is flawed even after the fact that alot of the big times rappers (the closet thing to an authority we have in hip-hop) agree with my points. And trust me a few people don't make an entrie board even though Q might agree with that. I don't think I made implications, but the fact is 2pac was as "hip-hop" just as much as Ice Cube or Biggie....like Mickill said himself "I dont think pac is overated, oversensationlized yes, but not overated". So it's not just me going on some tanget man. And if it most of you that dont rate him then that is sort of a bias. While I present diffrent types of arguments (most not even adressed by the people debating with me) all I hear is the same arguments over and over.

The fact is this: it's amazing how people can be so negative about someone they don't even know (I didnt know him but compared to all of you I might have the most knowledge on his history)....I don't know whatever, I said what needed to be said and did me, y'all can brush it off or take some of it as knowledge.

[g-mile7]

Quote:
What distinguishes you from everybody else?

"I never thought I was the best rapper-the best nothin'. I think I'm the realest nigga out there. I do think that. I think I own that


see this is the thing, the realest. i've never bought into that whole thing with pac. He seemed most comfortable as that young aspiring actor we've seen. The whole thug thug thug thuggity thug thing just never rang true with me. Pac got in with the real bad boys because he thought he could hang and it made the tattoo look good and the rhymes he was slinging, but ultimately thats what cost him his life and eventually biggie's

Also without pac we wouldn't have had to suffer all the wannabe's that have appeared since.

It's just hip hop political correctness when people mention them



Wannabes should talk bout his impact already. And people have so misconstrude the whole "thug life" shit he talked bout it crazy. What cost him his life was being too loyal (if that's what really happened in terms of who killed him). If being real is saying how you feel and not biting your tongue just because it might make you look like this or that, then I'd say he was. And I respect him for that. All and all, to me and millions of fans he is one of the greatest no matter how much people try and change the critetria so he doesn't match it.

[roosta]

oh, i give up.

[Ally Al]

The fact is this: it's amazing how people can be so negative about someone they don't even know (I didnt know him but compared to all of you I might have the most knowledge on his history)....


like you say you didn't know him, you've made your mind up from the media perception of pac that is thrown at us, and i could be wrong but i reckon much of the history you know of pac was presented with a huge slice of pac bias. I'm not biased against pac, it's neither love nor hate, i'm looking from a neutral point of view, thats the difference here

[Lex Diamonds]

This track (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhphK1-EoK4) kinda supports the theory that a while after he started Jay-Z started biting styles. Like someone else said, he's still awesome, it's just kinda like a sportsperson using steroids in the olympics or some shit. I don't think he deserves to be number one, but still, he does deserve respect. (y)

[adam_f]

2Pac is only up there because he's dead. Sorry.

Same with Biggie.

[Auton]

can't we all just hold hands and listen to 'Can U Get Away' together, and be friends?

[Lex Diamonds]

2Pac is only up there because he's dead. Sorry.

Same with Biggie.
That's bullshit. If 50 Cent died now, at the height of his popularity, he wouldn't be making any top 10 GOAT lists in ten years. 2Pac had skills, and vision. All the people who say otherwise are just trying to look unique.

[Ally Al]

That's bullshit. If 50 Cent died now, at the height of his popularity, he wouldn't be making any top 10 GOAT lists in ten years. 2Pac had skills, and vision. All the people who say otherwise are just trying to look unique.


i say otherwise but how does that mean i'm trying to look unique ? I don't get the appeal of 2pac, never have never will. I think he made a few good tracks imho but thats it, for me it ends there. I don't understand the adoration for the man, i don't get it one bit.

the sad thing is if 50 died he would be making these lists because he'd have his millions of fans blindly voting for him. It reminds a little bit of someone else but for some reason the name seems to escape me.....

[Lex Diamonds]

i say otherwise but how does that mean i'm trying to look unique ? I don't get the appeal of 2pac, never have never will. I think he made a few good tracks imho but thats it, for me it ends there. I don't understand the adoration for the man, i don't get it one bit.
Nah man what I mean is a lot of people don't give 2Pac a chance because they like to feel like they know about "the underground" or like they know about more obscure hip hop. Like liking 2Pac is too "obvious" or some shit.

[roosta]

I DONT THINK 2PAC MADE VERY GOOD RAPPING MUSIC. THAT IS ALL.

[g-mile7]

I DONT THINK 2PAC MADE VERY GOOD RAPPING MUSIC. THAT IS ALL.


Once again man, I didnt take it personel, you have made your opinion on what you pereceive from his music and the media (which is more neagtive then good depedning on which media you speak on), I have made mine. And like The Padster said if 50 died you would not be having as much crys for greatness as you do Pac and Biggie. If thats the case Proof, Mac Dre and so forth (even ODB who did make an impact) would be up there. It's all bout who made the biggest impact. Skills are a direct correlation of this impact.And padster thats the track I was looking for thanks. And there is even a track that Killa Cam did ("Swagger Jacker") which pairs Jay-Z lines he used to those of the orgianl artist, this whole track ends up being almost 5 mins long I think (of just 2 lines here or there)


But the original point is this and people keep trying to bring up unvalid points (bout his life, opinions and so forth) the orginal argument was this:


2pac should not be near that list.


thats was the orginal argument and I have tired to show why he deserves to be on that list....many many times (some points have still not been adressed such as his impact on both rap fans and rappers alike). Y'all can't say he didnt make an impact with the skills and persona he had. Respect however Roosta and Ally you have made some of the most respectful (in terms of not trying to attack me) post I have seen while discussing Pac (although I still think the srguments made lacked a great deal). Once again I even said that if they had put Rakim number 1 I wouldnt have been upset (even Jay-Z to an extent) its the discussion on if he should be on the list period, let alone what place.

[g-mile7]

i say otherwise but how does that mean i'm trying to look unique ? I don't get the appeal of 2pac, never have never will. I think he made a few good tracks imho but thats it, for me it ends there. I don't understand the adoration for the man, i don't get it one bit.
the sad thing is if 50 died he would be making these lists because he'd have his millions of fans blindly voting for him. It reminds a little bit of someone else but for some reason the name seems to escape me.....


Just the same with James Dean, and Monroe....had something that people could not only relate to but market it as well(or else you wouldnt be able to market them at all).

[Auton]

Same with Biggie.

ooooh i'm going to have to hurt you adam

[g-mile7]

ooooh i'm going to have to hurt you adam


Must not have seen the video :)

[Ally Al]

. Respect however Roosta and Ally you have made some of the most respectful (in terms of not trying to attack me) post I have seen while discussing Pac

G, look man, i'm glad you took it that way because nothing i've put in this post was an attack on you. like i said earlier in this post i have friends who's music knowledge and opinions i hold up above all others in ANY genre, and they LOVE pac. I've debated this shit with them for hours and hours, but his music is just not for me. I'm sure there's plenty of hip hop we'd see eye 2 eye on but pac we'll just have to agree to disagree

[Ally Al]

Nah man what I mean is a lot of people don't give 2Pac a chance because they like to feel like they know about "the underground" or like they know about more obscure hip hop. Like liking 2Pac is too "obvious" or some shit.

i get what you're saying, but those peeps are just knobheads a lot of obscure and underground hip hop sucks too. for me, i likes what i likes mainstream, hardcore, underground, obscure, whatever it may be. But for whatever reason, pac overall isn't an artist i dig

[g-mile7]

. Respect however Roosta and Ally you have made some of the most respectful (in terms of not trying to attack me) post I have seen while discussing Pac

G, look man, i'm glad you took it that way because nothing i've put in this post was an attack on you. like i said earlier in this post i have friends who's music knowledge and opinions i hold up above all others in ANY genre, and they LOVE pac. I've debated this shit with them for hours and hours, but his music is just not for me. I'm sure there's plenty of hip hop we'd see eye 2 eye on but pac we'll just have to agree to disagree


4sho (y) it not that you don't like his music(thats the issue or the issue in anybodys argument),it is just being able to undersatnd why people like him("I agree that he did make so and so but the fact is he wasnt..." as an example).

[adam_f]

Whatever you want to say about 2Pac is fine.

I just really hate Biggie.

[mickill]

There's just really too many things wrong with some of these opinions. I wouldn't even know where to begin.

[paul jones]

1. Muhammed Ali
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DwWXzDf1R_U&search=mohammed%20ali

ignore the P-Diddley track

[Lex Diamonds]

Here's some shit (http://www.odeo.com/audio/633407/view) about Jiggaman biting. A lot of it is homages, but it is quite revealing. I'm not saying it takes from his credibility as an artist or anything, I just found it interesting.

[Gareth]

what does Ice Cube have to do be inducted at VH1 Hip-Hop Honours, exclusive of NWA?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8qVPto9eHA&search=why%20we%20thugs

[Kid Presentable]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8qVPto9eHA&search=why%20we%20thugs
Ill as fuck.

Like the Weetbix ad: "Kiwi Kids, Are Ice Cube Kids."(y)

Cheers for that, when does the album drop?

[mickill]

Anybody else remember when Ice Cube was pretty much the most significant rapper alive? Pretty hard to believe now.

Scott Storch needs to get a new sound already. That cow's been milked to death already.

[Kid Presentable]

Anybody else remember when Ice Cube was pretty much the most significant rapper alive? Pretty hard to believe now.

In Kiwi town, he was the shit until everything after 'Bow Down'. Sampling 'Hurt' was genius, and we all had Death Certificate and Lethal Injection. I dubbed the latter onto a copy of YBT's album, with tape over the holes.(y)

Scott Storch needs to get a new sound already. That cow's been milked to death already.
Maybe, but I'm happy for Cube to do the gangster thing again. He's done for gangster rap lyrics what Dre did for the beats.

[g-mile7]

There's just really too many things wrong with some of these opinions. I wouldn't even know where to begin.



No need to begin....like you said there opinions (just like that statement you made above).

[g-mile7]

Here's some shit (http://www.odeo.com/audio/633407/view) about Jiggaman biting. A lot of it is homages, but it is quite revealing. I'm not saying it takes from his credibility as an artist or anything, I just found it interesting.


thats it right there......good find.....holy shit man.......this is long!