Stupid Raelians

[catatonic]

They believe all the religions on earth are true but there's no God. Instead, aliens created all the religions on earth and in fact created life on earth. The aliens want us to replace democracy with geniocracy, where those with 10% above average IQ can vote and 50% above average IQ can run. Replacing all menial labor by robots, they envision having cradle-to-the grave welfare and eventually getting rid of money. Biological robots for sexual pleasure eventually come about and they say that eternal life is obtained by cloning people and implanting their memories. They say there's a 99% chance the earth will self-destruct from human action, but they want us to build them an embassy to share their technology with us. Of course, we have to have world peace and stop adoring them as Gods first. There are a ton of fake looking UFO videos over at raelian.com.

I'm just trying to use reverse psychology here I really believe this. Yes.

[Funkaloyd]

You believe that, for real? Have you been excommunicated yet?

[Schmeltz]

Doesn't sound any stupider than any other religion to me.

[drizl]

yeah, thats pretty retarted

[catatonic]

Ocham's Razor says that the simplest explanation is the best one. Evolution requires hard chances and it is easier for life to evolve on a few planets and to spread to other planets by space travel than for life to evolve seperately on every planet, so it is more likely we were created than evolved. The fact that we share DNA with each advancement of earth life could be that the advancements of earth life were designed off of each other.

Two generations before travelling to the moon, there were no cars, so why couldn't we someday visit other planets. Creation with genetic engineering isn't so far-fetched either.

Space goes on forever, and 50% of Americans believe in UFOs. Recent studies show that of those who claim to have been abducted by UFOs, when told the story they react physiologically as if the story is real.

[Funkaloyd]

Ocham's Razor says that the simplest explanation is the best one. Evolution requires hard chances and it is easier for life to evolve on a few planets and to spread to other planets by space travel than for life to evolve separately on every planet, so it is more likely we were created than evolved.
Ockham's Razor only applies when there's equal evidence for each theory, and that certainly isn't the case here. Things like the age of fossils not only support the Theory of Evolution, but disprove the Raelian belief that we were created just a few thousand years ago.

Besides, according to Ockham, the simplest explanation is the one with the least assumptions. Thus, the belief that life started naturally on Earth is simpler than the belief that life started naturally elsewhere and was brought to Earth by Aliens.

The fact that we share DNA with each advancement of earth life could be that the advancements of earth life were designed off of each other.
That doesn't explain things like the retroviruses (http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Retrovirus) which show up in our DNA.

Recent studies show that of those who claim to have been abducted by UFOs, when told the story they react physiologically as if the story is real.
They believe that it's real. That's not surprising. Some people believe they've seen the Virgin Mary, so why not convert to Catholicism?


All that said, I guess this is better than the LDS Church. You know that you have to like gay people now, right? =P

[catatonic]

What Raelians say is that things aren't constant in the Universe accross time or space. The speed of light isn't constant in different parts of space because there is more dust, and carbon dating hasn't gone at the same rate throughout time. Richard Fenyman knew there was always a danger of extrapolating from a small sample such as a small amount of time to far away from it. This was the same reasoning that proved the earth was flat. If you looked at the growth rate of a 14 year old, you'd assume they were 500 years old or so. According to Raelianism there was life earlier on earth several times that had all gone extinct, but after the creation was done humans lived for 13,000 years (the earth wasn't created, but the land was brought to the surface and life was created). This kind of makes sense to me since we have no human artifacts from over 13,000 years ago. The creation began 25,000 years ago.

The odds just seem to be in favor of life evolving on a few planets and aliens transporting life to more planets. I'd say the odds favor an alien creation for any given planet with nearby planets.

Retroviruses could have been created too.

They believe they've seen the Virgin Mary, and they probably have. It could just be a harmless video projection made by the aliens to entertain them and give them a good time. I've seen things like that.

I've always liked gay people. I just thought they shouldn't get married because that's what I thought God said through my Church (before I heard that, I thought they should get married to be happy). I thought the people in my church who hated gay people were all stupid and ignorant. But since I had read strong evidence for the Book of Mormon I assumed that logically my Church had to be correct about the gay marriage thing. Incidentally, there's no mention of homosexuality whatsoever in the cannon of the LDS Church.

Also, salon magazine is a reference sometimes posted on this site that may be well-known to some of you. They have an article about how there are very common UFO sitings in Japan. You can infer from the article that most of the population of this area of Japan believes in them. http://archive.salon.com/people/feature/2001/05/31/noto/index.html

[Funkaloyd]

The speed of light isn't constant in different parts of space because there is more dust, and carbon dating hasn't gone at the same rate throughout time.
The thing is, there are dozens of radiometric dating techniques other than carbon dating, and they all confirm each other. If they've somehow changed over time, then they all must have changed in proportion to each other. You talk of odds below; well, the odds of this happening are slim to none.

In addition, entirely different dating methods like tree growth rings confirm that decay rates haven't changed.


Why do they have a problem with the speed of light?

we have no human artifacts from over 13,000 years ago.
We have cave paintings a few thousand years older than that, Venus figurines dating back hundreds of thousands of years, and tools 1,000,000+ years old. Where'd you get the 13,000 figure? It seems like some clever Raelians just took one of the common age estimates of the Lascaux Cave paintings and built their theory around that.

The odds just seem to be in favor of life evolving on a few planets and aliens transporting life to more planets.
What exactly are the odds of life evolving? Do you have any raw numbers? How did you get them?

It could just be a harmless video projection made by the aliens to entertain them and give them a good time.
What about all the demons people have seen? These aliens seem rather cruel.

[catatonic]

The devil doesn't really exist, but it haunts people to try to scare /persuade them away from being loyal to the aliens, but it's a trick to test humanity to see if they can be trusted. Lucifer was the guy or guys who gave humans technology in the Garden of Eden and was fallen from heaven because they banished him to earth for it (he was a good guy to us). Satan was afraid we would attack the aliens and was a group who wanted us destroyed because we were a threat. Satan used the devil to test humanity. What is it worth if the devil offers you the whole world in exchange for helping destroy the earth, especially if they don't trust humanity anymore? I suspect George Bush fell for this trick, since he said Eloha told him to do all the things in the middle east, with Eloha being a Raelian / Jewish word for what I believe is mistranslated as God. With their technology, we should be perfectly capable of attacking them, and people have launched missiles at UFOs before, which is why they won't share their technology again until we're at peace.

In the Book of Revelations by John the Revelator, there is a meager assessment of humanity's ability to progress technology to the point of peace, love, and space travel instead of bombing the crap out of each other. For instance in this verse, and yes I'm quoting a bIBLE verse,

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

it is a prediction about bombs destroying a third of humanity described as well as someone from 100 AD or so could.

[Funkaloyd]

Above, you say that you "had read strong evidence for the Book of Mormon". What made you change your mind? 'Cause all the things you're putting forward now sound a lot like the supposed evidence for the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Have you heard of sleep paralysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis)? I would suggest that it can explain the majority of human encounters with angels, demons and aliens, with the rest being explained by other psychological phenomenon.

[HAL 9000]

The odds just seem to be in favor of life evolving on a few planets and aliens transporting life to more planets. I'd say the odds favor an alien creation for any given planet with nearby planets.


You have insufficient data to make this claim.

How do you know there is life on any other planets at all?

All that is known with certainty is that at some point life came into existance on at least one planet.

As yet there is no evidence of interstellar travel or life on other worlds. There is certainly no statistcial evidence. Wikipedia is an excellent resource for this.

This is a highly interesting topic. I suggest reading about the Fermi Paradox. It is very enlightening. Also Drake Equation.

[Qdrop]

what the fuck is going on here?

i don't even know where to begin...

so much stupidity to weed through and attack...

i'm salivating...

[Funkaloyd]

Didn't you used to be, like, Catholic?

[catatonic]

I believed the Book of Mormon because I saw strong evidence for it. A couple of times I even assumed that the authors in it still might not know what they were talking about and were making up spiritual stuff. But then I figured, if an almighty God helped Joseph Smith translate it the spiritual stuff must be useful. The spiritual stuff just isn't useful anymore in a scientific age.

Sleep paralysis? But I wasn't limp. In fact I could move about.

Catholic priests would be better off in today's age if they went to third world countries and helped and didn't preach anything, or pr3ched the truth about the Bible. They could preach that the Bible says the antichrist comes from within organized religion. The Mormon Church has made moves towards more charity and less programs, but with Thomas S. Monson as their next leader it's probably lost.

[catatonic]

As yet there is no evidence of interstellar travel or life on other worlds. There is certainly no statistcial evidence. Wikipedia is an excellent resource for this.

This is a highly interesting topic. I suggest reading about the Fermi Paradox. It is very enlightening. Also Drake Equation.

Wikipedia has a good article on the Fermi paradox. 50% of Americans believe in UFOs though.

[catatonic]

http://archive.salon.com/people/feature/2001/05/31/noto/index.html

No. Actually people believe in UFOs because they've seen them, and in God because the UFOs pretend to be God.

[catatonic]

When I disbelieved Mormonism I believed there could be almost no shred of anything true in any religion for a time, and if a religion believed in a principle of good living I practically just automatically assumed the opposite was true. Because I was unbalanced from shifting my center entirely from a complete set of beliefs around one thing to another, I overcompensated. That's what happens when you deprogram yourself, and it takes about 2-8 years to become normal with the more brainwashing religions.

[catatonic]

That's what I would assume if I had just left the Pope too. I just read about it on the main web site over a few years.

[catatonic]

Anyway if there are no UFOs the religion is completely stupid but the ideas in it could still be good.

[catatonic]

So fighting for world peace isn't a good idea? Being a conscientious objector if you get drafted in a war to not have to fight isn't a good idea? Fighting against the Catholic Church isn't a good idea? (Hmm maybe) Promoting genetic engineering to end world hunger isn't a good idea?

You are a perfectly normal person who just left a religion that they once centered their life around. You will assume, just as I did, that absolutely nothing good can come from religion. I know the feeling, and it will last for a few years probably.

Of course, if there are no UFOs there's no reason to join the religion, but you've got to admit those things listed above are good ideas.

[catatonic]

The Raelians even posted a website apostasynow.com, free of charge, to show why anyone regardless of their belief will want to leave Christian Churches, making no mention of their religion. You can show it to your Catholic buddies.

[catatonic]

I was going by the junk you were talking about in your first post.

Yeah. I tried to make it look stupid. Wee.

[catatonic]

.

[Funkaloyd]

The thing is, even if all the UFO sightings and abduction stories are real, there still wouldn't be any reason to prefer Raelianism to any other explanation. The alien happenings would support the beliefs of Scientology and Fox Mulder just as much as they'd support Raelianism.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence which specifically supports Raelianism, except for the personal testimony of Rael. I need more than that.

I agree that Raelianism has some good beliefs, but I think those are offset by the danger of believing in gods, god-like aliens and their human prophets. See Heaven's Gate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28cult%29). You can be a skeptic and still believe in world peace and genetic engineering.

[fucktopgirl]

RAel live in quebec and i see him in an interview.THat guy is a jok and he has a freaking cosmonaut suit.HE is just out of the loop and he think he is a sort of messiah,then he use this status to fuck tonnes of innocent women who would do anything for him.

RAel is a JOK!LIke scientology ,or any others sectes.

[catatonic]

The thing is, even if all the UFO sightings and abduction stories are real, there still wouldn't be any reason to prefer Raelianism to any other explanation. The alien happenings would support the beliefs of Scientology and Fox Mulder just as much as they'd support Raelianism.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence which specifically supports Raelianism, except for the personal testimony of Rael. I need more than that.

I agree that Raelianism has some good beliefs, but I think those are offset by the danger of believing in gods, god-like aliens and their human prophets. See Heaven's Gate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28cult%29). You can be a skeptic and still believe in world peace and genetic engineering.

You could support Raelianism over scientology because L. Ron Hubbard is an idiot who says there are beatiful women on all the planets of our solar system and that if you kissed a girl on Jupiter it would feel really good because of the gravity (he doesn't realize the gravity would crush you) and we all watched a video in a theatre made by aliens to make us Christian and he can somehow fight an alien who wants to destroy earth but somehow hasn't yet by giving him money which he doesn't use to build anything. MEST doesn't make sense since matter and energy can interchange. So can space and time. His spiritual measuring device probably works, but who knows where he got it from. Maybe he got it from the aliens, but it sounds like they were B.S.ing him about the rest or he just made it up.

In other words, you watch L. Ron Hubbard in his own words at impious digest, you watch the videos at rael.org and read their book, and decide for yourself.

Rael's personal testimony is 400 pages long in the book Intelligent Design from the website and Raelians seem to say he's never contradicted it. In fact, he claims there are 10 exraelians a year and I went to one of their websites and they didn't even have anything bad to say about the movement.

According to his testimony he wished he had a camera but the aliens told him they would give him proof for 6 days from the Bible that he would publish in Intelligent Design. There's no mysticism in their explanations, just science claims to judge. Thus, you read their explanation of the Bible in Intelligent Design and decide for yourself.

But there is external evidence for his testimony. How do you explain some ancient cultures being more advanced then we are? How do you explain all the religions saying there were beings from the sky, the sun, or the stars? In fact, Rael claims there is evidence for his religion in all religions. How come those who chronicle alien abductions say the aliens give them new age religions and sometimes tell people the same things as in Raelianism? There are other testimonies in the book too with evidence.

As for Heaven's Gate, there is absolutely no danger at all to Heaven's Gate. If Heaven's Gate is right, then those people will be cloned on another planet where they can have a blast. If Heaven's Gate is wrong, they just die and that's the end of it. If God is right, God must be fair and will judge them according to their belief. Since they didn't believe in, say, Islam which says you are punished for suicide, why would they be judged by it by a fair God. And if you say, God expects everyone to come to the truth and will judge them for it, with it being very unpredictable the circumstances determing who will believe what, then Raelianism claims to incorporate all the religions anyway so you can't find a reason why you're any less likely to be judged by Raelianism than, say Mormonism.

Raelianism says all the religions are correct, but the aliens made up a lot of each of them. A good prophet like Jesus Christ, Mohammed, or Joseph Smith makes up smart sounding mystical doctrine along with them. There's no way to really know if aliens could be making up some of Raelianism too, but the explanations seem plausible.

[catatonic]

Hi, sorry...Jesus isn't real.

So, if my religion is Followers of Donald Trump's Hair...that means it is correct if it states that Donald Trump's hair is really a god that created only Donald Trump and everything else is created through big bang, evolution and other such things? So how can all religions be correct if they contradict one another?

You're a nut, sorry. Easily manipulated. When you left your religion, you needed something to fill in that "empty feeling", this is where you are most easily persuaded and manipulated. Unfortunately, you got pulled into a joke. Poor sap. A bullet to the head may have been a smarter move than to join this "religion".

Well, that's just fine. That's your opinion. I left Mormonism on my own when I was 19 for a year or two but came back when I saw evidence for the Book of Mormon. If Jesus isn't real, that's fine, but there were a lot of Churches set up in Israel centered around specific places of his actual life. It seems kind of hard to manipulate the Christian quarter of Jerusalem into centering their life around something that never happened at all, with actual places claimed specifically as being parts of Jesus' life. Also the shroud of turin is claimed to be an image of Jesus' face if you want to look it up.

What do you believe about how religions get started?

[catatonic]

Wanna know why some cultures were more "advanced" than ours today? It's called christianity.

No shit. The Catholic and protestant churches all fought against human advancement. Christ predicted it in the Bible. He said all the churches would just continually get worse and worse.

A Mormon invented the working concept for television, but Mormonism too has fallen away from its days when it fully encouraged science. The Book of Mormon even says that all Churches would be corrupt, including Mormonism.

[catatonic]

There is absolutely no evidence suggesting that people from Israel or whereever came to North America...none.

farms.byu.edu has lots of it (just look at Journal of Book of Mormon Studies), but since there are a few million Mormons and a lot more people who don't like Mormons, you will probably not read about it.

[Ace42X]

It seems kind of hard to manipulate the Christian quarter of Jerusalem into centering their life around something that never happened at all

Hah, and what about the dozens of churches dedicated to foreskin of Jesus? There's all sorts of things that have spun out from a bullshit myth. Take circumscision (non-religious) in the US. All because of Victorian myths that masturbation will kill you, and drain you of your soul, life essence, etc etc.

Moving away from the penis motif, what about the Valley of the Kings in Egypt? They all right too? The pyramids, or are they aliens?

People dedicate their lives to rumours, speculations, and out and out lies all the time.

[catatonic]

That's true. Religions do use sexual abstinence and no masturbation to control people. It makes a person less conscious and less spontaneous. I realized that a long time ago. That's why Raelianism encourages masturbation, sexual exploration, sensuality, and as many partners as you like. It also promotes no jealousy upon changing partners. Also, I heard that in the early days of Mormonism they had sex in Temples.

[catatonic]

As for the Valley of Kings of Egypt, I've seen documentaries about what these kings wanted. It's not a stretch to say they wanted to have their DNA carried to another planet and be cloned, or that that's what they wanted but they didn't understand the mechanism. They were more advanced technologically in some ways than us. All religions seem to get corrupted over time. Jesus basically said those Christians outside of Churches were the true followers.

[Ace42X]

It's not a stretch to say

... That you are a little too imaginative and a little too naive? Anyone can make up fairy stories to justify anything. Seriously, try me, come up with any scientifically observable fact, and I can spin it into some spiritual mumbo-jumbo.

[Ace42X]

Why did dinosaurs become extinct?

Because they were the serpent in the garden of eden, figuratively speaking, and it is not much of a stretch to think that god making them wriggle on their bellies is a floral way of saying smiting them all except for a few lizards and snakes!

Another another!

[catatonic]

TVs get interference from bad weather.

[Ace42X]

Yes, and it is such a magical and powerful artifact that when people see ghosts, they are incorrectly seeing Jesus, sous shroud, speaking to them, proving his divinity. That's why ghosts are often portrayed as being like white sheets!

[Ace42X]

TVs get interference from bad weather.

It's god being angry with all the porn and stuff on them, and reminding people of it!

[catatonic]

Forensic science on whether the shroud of turin was Jesus (http://www.historicaljesusquest.com/forensic-science-csi.htm)

Inconclusive. But no current technology can reproduce it.

[wrongwayandugg]

Raelian women are hot to death. If I was gay or a guy, I would totally get with those jawns!

[catatonic]

This comes from the wikipedia entryon raelians.

Stupid raelians indeed. You would think they would thought of this before giving him the symbol. What morons.

The religion is closer to Bhuddhism than Christianity anyway, and Bhuddhism uses a swastika. Rael never claimed to be a smart man. Neither was Joseph Smith or Mohammed. In fact, it says one reason they chose him because he wouldn't try to interject scientific explanations.

[catatonic]

It has nothing to do with Hitler.

Jews are actually smarter than most people, or at least they used to be.

[fucktopgirl]

But there is external evidence for his testimony. How do you explain some ancient cultures being more advanced then we are? How do you explain all the religions saying there were beings from the sky, the sun, or the stars? In fact, Rael claims there is evidence for his religion in all religions. How come those who chronicle alien abductions say the aliens give them new age religions and sometimes tell people the same things as in Raelianism? There are other testimonies in the book too with evidence. .

YES,maybe they was some aliens that came to our earth thousand and thousand of years ago,i said maybe.

But Rael have nothing to do with it .They said if you want to be rich ,,create your own religion,well that what Rael did.He is clever(somehow) and know how to manipulate words and people!

[catatonic]

Watch (http://www.rael.org/e107_plugins/raeltv_menu/view.php?5.fast.wmp) the video of the Maitreya: pictures of UFOs adorn some Bhuddhist Temples. Bhuddhism predicts the Maitreya to come in 1973 on the Southern Bhuddhist calendar (recently the Southern and Northern calendar users met and agreed to use the Northern calendar). It also says the Maitreya would come from the land of the cock and the French love the rooster as a symbol for themselves.

If Rael had nothing to do with it, at least he was smart enough to coincide with Bhuddhist prophecy.

I think he's somewhat eccentric and he dresses in noncomformity; it doesn't bother me.

[Funkaloyd]

pictures of UFOs adorn some Bhuddhist Temples.
What do you think of the face on Mars (http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/image/planetary/mars/face.jpg)?

[catatonic]

Aliens put it there.

UFOs were made to be something else in Buddhist tradition just like in all the traditions. But the fact is they look like UFOs.

As for Zoroastrianism, Except for the worship of Mazda, this is all exactly what Raelians teach except spirits, angels, and gods are regular beings and salvation's a little different (from wikipedia):

Zoroastrianism teaches many of the concepts found in the major Abrahamic faiths such as Heaven, Hell, the Last Judgment, Satan, prophecy, the coming of the Messiah, angels, and evil spirits.

According to the Gathas humans are free and responsible beings. Predestination is rejected in Zoroastrian teaching. Humans bear responsibility for all situations they are in, and in the way they act to one another. Nothing in the Heavens and Earth has the power to force a being to do evil. Reward, punishment, happiness and grief all depend on how individuals live their life. Good befalls the people who do righteous deeds. Those who do evil have themselves to blame for their evil-doing.

Humans possess a great power. They can improve their way of living and the living conditions of others. This power is called Charitas. After death the person must walk through the Path to Judgement or Chinvat Peretum to bear responsibility for his or her actions when alive. There is a belief in heaven and hell in Zoroastrian cosmology but it is a little different than that of the Christian hell. The evil are sent to hell until the time when evil is finally defeated, at which time they will go through a purgation process, the "ordeal of molten metal", and then join Ahura Mazda and the saints. Thus, Zoroastrianism can be said to be a Universalist religion with respect to salvation.

The Prophet Zoroaster acknowledged devotion to no other god besides Ahura Mazda. The concept of Dualism plays a role when speaking of the Spenta Mainyu ("Holy Spirit") and the Angra Mainyu ("Evil Spirit"). These two have a constant battle, at the end of which the Holy Spirit will prevail by the power of Ahura Mazda.

When it comes to worship metaphysical dualism is rejected in modern orthodox traditions and beliefs. The belief that Good prevails over Evil and God's supremacy over all is similar to that of the Abrahamic faiths, of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, in which Satan is in no way the equal of the Abrahamic God and is a creation of God. Yet these faiths differ from Zoroastrianism precisely because they represent the evil force as being another of the supreme being's creations. In contrast, Mardanfarrokh, a Zoroastrian theologian in the 9th century CE, posited "If God is perfect in goodness and wisdom, then ignorance and evil cannot come from Him. If they could come from Him, He would not be perfect; and if He were not perfect, He should not be praised as God and perfectly good..."

Since it was an early religion and mankind was primitive, they started out with the simple concept that you could better yourself and your fellow man without apparently giving much in the way of specifics. Also, it was later adapted to include multiple gods.

There are probably like 50 people claiming to be the Maitreya and the Dali Lama probably has no connection with Rael, so there's no impetus for them to believe Rael is the Maitreya all at once just like Jews didn't convert to Christianity and Christians didn't convert to Islam and Muslims didn't convert to Mormonism. In fact the 15 year old who was kidnapped that Buddhists think is the Maitreya has repeatedly said he isn't the Maitreya. Likewise the leader of the LDS Church today Gordon B. Hinckley has barely indicated that he might be a prophet and doesn't really prophesy (he once said "So I am called yes" to Larry King asking if he was a prophet and that's the only time I can think when he's said he was). Many Buddhists individually convert to Raelianism.

It was hard to predict with certainty everything that would happen when we entered the technological age with the nuclear bomb. The Book of Revelations is just a prediction - it's not guaranteed. They couldn't know exactly how much war there would be, but world peace should be our goal, especially disarming nukes, and there aren't a lot of people dying today in war compared with history. There are no major conflicts. Fewer American troops are claimed dead in Iraq each year than in years of peace.

[Funkaloyd]

People have an ache to identify.
Exactly. Here's (http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/extended_may2001/face/face_e03-824_proc_i.gif) the newer photo.

I give up now. Just don't give them any of your money, Catatonic.

[catatonic]

OK. No problem. I was just guessing. Besides, how do you know the closeup wasn't designed to appear like a face from a far-off look. But I'm just guessing. It may be a coincidence.

On page 8 of http://ad2004.com/Biblecodes/Hebrewmatrix/911matrixnew2004.pdf, you can see two or three seperate pictures of Satan in the World Trade Center bombing and pictures like this and the Virgin Mary sandwich pop up all the time. It can be explained by coincidence but aliens is just as good of an explanation if not easier.

[Schmeltz]

It can be explained by coincidence but aliens is just as good of an explanation


You have a lot to learn about critical thinking and investigative methodology.

[catatonic]

My GRE score is 1480. You are making a blank assumption. Anyway people have differing opinions; why not judge a movement by what the people seek:

geniocracy - government by geniuses
promote future technology - robots, human cloning, genetic engineering, chemical education
promote world peace and at least disarming of nukes
world currency and later no money
world government and world peace army
denounce deistic religion
abortion better for unwanted child
nothing wrong with gay people
women can do anything
no death penalty - violence is from stupidity mental illness and antisocial behavior, with mental illness and antisocial behavior curable by medicine
no killing except to save life - fighting in war unacceptable
sensuality and sexuality can help get intelligence up to its ceiling - meditation gets you more high than drugs with no harm
the most advanced people dominate others
welfare state - also people should be able to pass their homes onto their children for free
no convoluted beareaucracy, demanding schedule, or tough requirements and tithing is 1% to help spread the message
and stuff along these lines

[Schmeltz]

I don't care what your GRE score is, the thinking you display here demonstrates that you have yet to master the skills of discernment and analytical penetration necessary to reach rational conclusions. Similarly, I don't care what it is that a movement seeks; I would focus, rather, on what it does. Communism and Nazism had very lofty goals as well, but fell far short of them in terms of actual practical achievement.

[catatonic]

Well they started up a company called clonaid that was independent of the movement. They claimed to clone a human being but wouldn't present the proof because they were concerned the cloned baby would be taken away by the government. Also, they've got a lot of Ph.Ds in the movement doing scientific research.

Anyways a few 10,000 people can only do so much.

And if my critical thinking is only so good, why have I hardly ever been challenged on this board presenting opinions. I don't think I've ever been challenged except on religion.

[fucktopgirl]

So you believe what this fucker is saying !http://www.rael.org/rael_content/index.php

I mean command look at him,,god i wish i could retrace the interview with him in quebec,everybody on the set just freaking tell him how much a jok he was.The guy take himself too seriously with his little poney shit on the top of is head!

Poor you man!YOu been trap in the net.The spider web is well designed and the guy know is shit(meaning he is clever) so it did write stuff that kinda make sense.But command,he proclaimed that he had the visit of some alien ;he had like a beer and some nachos with the alien.And then then chit chat about human futur/past.I mean just concentrate on this for a few sec.THat guy is a scam.The alien told him to build like a base for when the aliens civilisation will come visit!C'mon on!

Beware of thoses who pretend to be "the" messiah!THis guy is a bit "out of the loop"IT is a sect ,no good!

When i was in high school,they where there(brainwash raelians)to distribute condom to kids.I was like 13-14,they give me one!now you tell me if this make sense?

ANyway,,suit yourself but man i feel for you!If you are so intelligent ,you will see how much a freaking jok this is!REad some bouddhism instead or philosophy if you want to give a sense of purpose to your life!
GOd dammit!

edit;but maybe you dont believe that shit because your title is "stupid raelian"!
i dunno if you believe in this shit or just want to make some action!

[catatonic]

[QUOTE=fucktopgirl]Beware of thoses who pretend to be "the" messiah!
QUOTE]

True dat.

[burbboi]

For crying out loud...

The face on Mars is just a land formation. When at a certain angle and at the right light with a very low resolution camera, the top looks like a face.

I beg do differ. Ever seen that masterful biopic called 'Mission to Mars'? I rest my case.


P.S It starred Gary Sinise and Don Cheadle

[Funkaloyd]

Regarding "geniocracy", read (or watch the film adaption of) Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron.

[catatonic]

I shall try. In the meantime, here's a quote perhaps from it:

"Bergeron's epitaph for the planet, I remember, which he said should be carved in big letters in a wall of the Grand Canyon for the flying-saucer people to find, was this:


WE COULD HAVE SAVED IT
BUT WE WERE TOO DOGGONE CHEAP

Only he didn't say 'doggone.'"

- Hocus Pocus

I like a lot of his quotes and essays so far.

[catatonic]

The thing is, there are dozens of radiometric dating techniques other than carbon dating, and they all confirm each other. If they've somehow changed over time, then they all must have changed in proportion to each other. You talk of odds below; well, the odds of this happening are slim to none.

...

We have cave paintings a few thousand years older than that, Venus figurines dating back hundreds of thousands of years, and tools 1,000,000+ years old. Where'd you get the 13,000 figure? It seems like some clever Raelians just took one of the common age estimates of the Lascaux Cave paintings and built their theory around that.



Well, I stayed up all night just pondering this and wondering how this could be true, since I really wanted it to work.

But, but, but there seems to be a perfectly good explanation for this that Rael may not have even be aware of. So this seems to be where my belief either gets recognized as meeting your criticism or shot to hell entirely. It uses the atom bomb effect on radiometric dating. The Internet seems to be unanimous that atom bombs can effect the amount of radioactive isotopes in all of the different atoms used in radiometric dating. In fact, by quite a lot:

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/adventures243.htm
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1278947
nzas.rsnz.org/publish/archive/NZSR_61_2.pdf
mightylib.mit.edu/Course%20Materials/ 22.01/Fall%202001/radiometric%20dating.pdf
Ely, L.L., R.H. Webb, and Y. Enzel. 1992. Accuracy of post-bomb 137Cs and 14C in dating fluvial deposits. Quaternary Research 38:196-204 haven't looked up yet
Druffel, E. R. M. (1996). “Post-bomb radiocarbon records of surface corals from the tropical Atlantic Ocean.” Radiocarbon 38(3): 563-572. which I haven't read

I especially like the MIT article as a source.

So apparently 4 atom bombs dropped on Japan can double the amount of carb
on-14 in the atmosphere and underground and all around, pushing back the date by whatever percent increase of carbon-14 it creates in things using the half-life formula.

But nuking the whole earth like it was a new action movie starring Keanu Reeve or better Ashton Kutcher would cause tremendous amounts of isotope gain, all uniform
pushing the wrongly calculated radiometric dating back with insanely nonlogarithmic force.
In the Raelian version of Noah's Ark, the whole earth simple got obliterated (by nukes) to cause massive
tidal waves that covered the whole earth. Noah and the animal DNA went into a spaceship (the Bible kind of says this).

[catatonic]

Above, you say that you "had read strong evidence for the Book of Mormon". What made you change your mind? 'Cause all the things you're putting forward now sound a lot like the supposed evidence for the Bible and the Book of Mormon.



I still believe the Book of Mormon as an account of ancient American authors which was usually what I tried to say. Non-LDS scholars the world over have said the storyline is acceptable and if you really compared the anti-LDS claims on the Book of Mormon to the LDS claims, you'd quickly see why.

[Funkaloyd]

If C14 dating is inherently inaccurate, then it's amazing, nay, miraculous that other dating techniques (both radiometric ones and others like tree ring growths)—which work in totally different ways—are wrong to exactly the same degree.

I guess you could believe that's the case, due to chance, or conspiring aliens or gods. In the same vein, you could believe that the Universe was created yesterday, false memories and all. As Ace noted, a belief can have excuses for all of the evidence, but that doesn't mean the belief isn't made-up bunk.

[catatonic]

.

[catatonic]

.

[catatonic]

OK Here we go again. I used all of the dating techniques I could find this time.

Fission track, thermoluminescence, obsidian, and racemization are sound and apply to nonliving things, and carbon-14 applies to once-living things. Pollen dating is sound and relative. Fossil dating is sound and matches periods. (http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/time13.pdf)

Electron spin resonance and cosmic-ray exposure dating are sound and c-r e applies to much longer than 50,000 y.a. only (http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html#page%2018). I couldn't find any use of ESR to correlate C-14.

Stratigraphy is sound and is relative (http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalprogram/abstract_65814.htm). Seriation too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seriation_%28archaeology%29)

Tree ring dating is sound and accurate to about 4000 y.a. (http://www.biocrawler.com/encyclopedia/Radiometric_dating)

Historical dating is fine, and again goes back about 4000 y.a. Some Egyptian artifact.

Varve and ice core dating are sound, and the calibration works, but the corresponding carbon-dating is measured deep underground in microfossils of the samples. (http://www.cio.phys.rug.nl/HTML-docs/Verslag/97/PE-04.htm) (Also wikipedia ice core)

All the other radiometric dating elements have much longer half-lives than carbon-14, and I haven't found any calibrations on the Internet between them and carbon-14, although Potassium-Argon and C-14 should barely be possible. I even found a seeming chronometric gap between C-14 and potassium-argon. (Web page 6 of scholarly articles)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=calibrations+between+carbon-14+and+other+isotopes&btnG=Google+Search

So is there any radiocarbon correlation over 4000 years ago overground? Amazingly, nay miraculously, I couldn't find any and if there are do they really correspond soundly? The varves and ice cores could simply not have their carbon affected strongly from being deep in the earht. I couldn't find any. If the earth got totally nuked, causing massive tidal waves, overground radiocarbon dates might actually be much later, and let's look at what the correspondence would be. Say the nukes cause a fixed gain in C equivalent to 25% on the chart, dying at 100% and eyeballing it. http://www.c14dating.com/agecalc.html

-----3ka--------6ka-------9ka--------12ka-------15ka
o1.....................o2...........nukes......... ..........o3.......

object actual date recorded date
o0 50kya 21kya
o1 15kya 11kya
o2 9kya 6kya
6.001kya 4kya
5.999kya 5.999kya
o3 2kya 2kya

The older back you went, the more it would really be much older. I can't find any way to detect this with all the dating methods or confirm it or deny its possibility scientifically. I humbly ask all of your input.

Here's the best reference again on the atom bomb effect of radiocarbon dating.
mightylib.mit.edu/Course%20Materials/ 22.01/Fall%202001/radiometric%20dating.pdf

Anyway something should be found wrong with all this, especially perhaps with my unused underground claim.

[catatonic]

So what we measure as 13,000 years ago could be a lot earlier, and there could be a 12,000 year gap from what we measure as a long or perhaps quite long time ago. 20,000 y.a. there could be another nuking of earth to bring dry land to the surface, and before that life on this planet could be measured again, with the results being as measured because a different element was used, or perhaps that element was wrong too.

In fact/In this moron wet dream, you don't even need to find a gap because this 20,000 year ago nuking could bring events from over 25,000 years ago to cover the 12,000 year gap in human history.

There'd be a history of people on earth right after the flood too but actually a history of people from before. This to me shows why most cultures claim to have had a flood at the same time scientists looked and said there were people there.

[catatonic]

I guess you could believe that's the case, due to chance, or conspiring aliens or gods. In the same vein, you could believe that the Universe was created yesterday, false memories and all. As Ace noted, a belief can have excuses for all of the evidence, but that doesn't mean the belief isn't made-up bunk.

The idea behind the aliens is that they do things that are believable and logical.

[Funkaloyd]

Just so I'm clear on what I'm looking for, what would falsify Raelian creation this way? Evidence of humans dated using more than one technique to 13,000ya+, right? I don't quite get this Raelian timeline.

[catatonic]

Proof of anatomically modern humans dating to between 15,000 ya and 25,000 ya or maybe up to 45,000 ya, or proof that life before then and life since then has the same origin.

Let's review: The Raelian timeline says 25,000 ya the earth was covered in water and mist, that over 12,000 y they made it modern and introduced new humans, and over 13,000 y from then human history and more alien interaction with it happened. More details are provided. Nukes were supposedly used on earth 21kya-19kya and whenever Noah's Ark and Soddom and Gomorrah were. The 21kya-19kya were reputedly massive nukes to drain water to allow land.

Before the 25,000 y, these particular aliens simply weren't involved and almost anything you could find radiometrically without radiocarbon seems reliable. So how could you disprove Raelianism with that data?

But wait,hold your breath. It gets even worse to disprove scientifically. The aliens hold back outright physical proof but say UFOs will appear more and more regularly in the sky. The book and what other Raelians say claims to be enough for people to go on and what they want people to decide on. At any rate, they calculated long ago based on a computer recording human thought and action that approximately 144,000 members will be there when the earth could be in super trouble, (by 2035) unless some other religion merges. These are who get the rapture, being carried up in spaceships to repopulate earth. Of course, I've read of an alien abductee who was told this and was sure they were lying. Me I don't really believe it, but I'm highly confident that a few of you will.

[catatonic]

Regarding "geniocracy", read (or watch the film adaption of) Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron.
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html
Stupid, then funny, then sad they couldn't think but had emotions, “If you see this boy,” said the ballerina, “do not – I repeat, do not – try to reason with him." was funny.

That's kind of how I used to feel about Mormonism as a teenager, although I was one of the brightest kids in my High School. Brainwash is powerful to get you to ignore things.

[Funkaloyd]

Ok, that wasn't such a great example of geniocracy. The movie is. It might be hard to find, though.

[Funkaloyd]

Would humans dating to 60,000ya be consistent with Raelianism?
Nukes were supposedly used on earth 21kya-19kyaThat would leave quite an impression on things like ice core layers, wouldn't it?

[catatonic]

I can almost guarantee the wrongness of this post.

Would humans dating to 60,000ya be consistent with Raelianism?

Yes. The human shape is a very logical and natural one. Another species
could have made a different type of human, and there are even esoteric
religious traditions saying this. http://www.inthelight.co.nz/spirit/civilisations/atlantis.htm
At any rate, here is an article I found saying modern humans didn't
descend from them (and by them I just mean the usual neandertals) and that the missing link is completely unknown. (http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/descent.html)
I took a crash beginners course on evolution at evolution.berkeley.edu and it used a lot of the same things evolutionists use.

At any rate, this is just one article and it seems logical to assume humans came from early humans.


Originally Posted by catatonic
Nukes were supposedly used on earth 21kya-19kya

"That would leave quite an impression on things like ice core layers, wouldn't it?"

Definitely, unless the data was somehow hidden with technology. Fortunately for me, I didn't have to go that far.

Let's use all the ice core data in the world (http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ftp-icecore.html)

My only constraint was -19000 to -23000. Please note this data comes from
WDC for Paleoclimatology.
Data not present for Pb and H+. Nor C14 or probably any other element.
Accumulation Rates - slightly out of range. Beta data is for the wrong time too.
Crystal Size - But no data for that time.
Debris Content wouldn't be an indicator.
What about Layer Thickness? A graph reveals no signs of nukes.
Melt Percent? None
Pressure? None
Temperature? None.
Total Gas Content? No sign of nukes in total gas content. But data points quite
spread out, even more so then Layer Thickness.

They clearly never published things like Pb, H, and C.

It's pretty inconclusive unless you want to count layer thickness and total gas content.

Some bathroom reading for your toilet-PC:

http://www.barry.warmkessel.com/barry/4related.html
http://personals.galaxyinternet.net/tunga/
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/kilicores.htm

Volcanoes, comets, and supernovas all affect ice cores, and you
can usually tell the difference. Would a nuclear catastrophe be like
a comet?

Also my home teachers from the Mormon Church came over today who were both studying this kind of science and they had no idea.

[catatonic]

Intelligent Design started again in 2003, and already this 2004 paper is sound.

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2177

The only weakness I found was in anti-structuralism.

[King of Rock $]

The only thing you just proved is that its really difficult to prove that nukes haven't been used... still that is no support for your theory...

[Funkaloyd]

Wow, I didn't know you could get anything from ice cores other than layer thickness and dust content. In any case, if they used nukes to drain oceans, then I should imagine that would have a huge effect on precipitation, and therefore layer size.

I can almost guarantee the wrongness of this post.
I think you'd be better served by agnosticism.

already this 2004 paper is sound.
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2177
See: http://www.biolsocwash.org/id_statement.html

[catatonic]

It was smart to include Joseph Smith as a prophet.

[WillaH]

yeh thats probably true

[FunkyHiFi]

I didn't read this entire thread so maybe someone already mentioned this (a search for the title got no results so....)

Chariots Of The Gods (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000IO3U/qid=1149143680/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-3332158-7364003?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=130)

Plot Synopsis: Documentry based on the book by Erich Von Daniken concerning the ancient mysteries of the world, such as the pyramids of Egypt and Mexico, ancient cave drawings, the monuments of Easter Island, etc. and the fact that these things and modern civalization could have been influenced by extra terrestrial visitations hundreds(or perhaps thousands) of years ago.

Unfortunately, many "artifacts" in this film were found to be modern constructs used to help prove Von Daniken's theory - IIRC he said he said he just embellishing the facts & wasn't trying to be truly misleading - but there a lot of things in it that aren't fakes & can be seen for oneself (if you have the $$ for the plane tickets that is :) ). Many actual ancient artifacts resemble modern space-faring gear very closely - for this to be a simple coicindence it too diffcult to believe.

This is an example: detail of a 14th century fresco painting (http://www.etcontact.net/images/B085%5B1%5D.jpg). The documentary shows another "ship" on the other side of the fresco chasing(?) this one.

I'm NOT saying I believe his theory, but I have to admit much of it is hard to totally dismiss as wishful thinking. I first saw this as a kid (about 12 years old I guess) when it was re-released in theaters & at that time I was heavily into sci-fi novels/movies, so it made a major impression on me.

BTW: here's the documentary at imdb.com (http://imdb.com/title/tt0065702/) The photography and general scenery shown is very cool to watch, even if you don't really pay attention to the narration.

FYI: I own this documentary on dvd, but it's one of those dvds that cost a whole $2 at Krogers. :o And I got what I paid for: the video portion looks like a copy of a copy of a film copy....which itself was a copy of a copy! I.e. slightly lburry and has hairs in it. The audio sounds like an old overplayed cassette tape. Oh well. Speaking of audio: the soundtrack for this film has a cool feel to it, rock w/classical mixed with world music + some progressive rock + some jazzy stuff here and there. Whatever the actual facts are of the documentary, the music really helps to create a feeling of wonder and.......spaciness (that's not exactly Shakespeare, but this is a no-charge forum so....:D). I'm looking out for the vinyl version at resale shops. You can listen to the whole thing here. (http://www.weirdsville.com/featured11.html)

[c0nn0r]

I made a video about a Raelian recruitment convention in Kingston, Ontario.

Check it out here (http://c0nn0r.info/blog/?p=21). It's pretty funny, and educating...

Leave a comment and tell me what you think...

[Funkaloyd]

Jeez, I see what Wrongway meant about Raelian women. Too bad Flirty Fishing is no longer the 'in' thing in cults.

[catatonic]

Did you get that from Cult Monthly or something? How many cults are you aware of?

Well, I was thinking about what you said, that things like we were all created on 6/6/06 or something are incontrovertible but wrong anyway, which got me thinking:

Evolution explains our brains as products, not perfect, for survival, yet every primitive emotion has a clear basis for survival. What about our thoughts? Does every thought or a full descriptive set basis from the set of possible thoughts have a basis in survival? If that were the case, this thought that the Universe might be new could have a purpose.

What if the world we're aware of were created by the generation before us. Basically every 30 years or so there could be a massive awakening of a generation, leading them all unanimously to construct a sort of matrix on the younger generation. All or virtually all scientific data, history text, and religious text could be changed over a few years, by unanimous consent. This could take a few years before the babies had any memory. Then there could be miracles like the Bible Codes and the Raelian book suddenly explaining the Bible in terms of scientific technology. Of course this doesn't make any sense but maybe there's a crisis we don't know about where the earth might have to be emptied, and they're just setting up a system to keep those under 30 from being able to survive in case it happens. Then the 60+ crowd could be controlling them too. Maybe they're just way more advanced then us.

Aren't I a swell hypothesizing scientist?

That would explain too, this story by a Muslim:

...seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different world...


And there they were, on a flight from Cape Town to Durban, seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different worlds.......After the formalities were covered, the conversation continued........

Bob: I don't believe in God, but rather in science and technology, something tangible you see, but if you can prove to me scientifically that God does exist then I would consider such a thought.

Yunus: Okay, you being interested in technology, please answer this question......with regard to an advanced machine or electronic device, who would be the one to know the most about its mechanism or functioning?

Bob: Well, perhaps the person who has invented or manufactured such a machine.

Yunus: Can we agree that it is the maker or creator of the product who would know every-thing there is to know about the product.

Bob: I don't see why not, it sounds reasonable.

Yunus: Being knowledgeable in these matters, the next question I'd like to ask you is, Just how did the world or the universe come into existence?

Bob: According to recent scientific research, the whole universe was one gigantic mass, which scientists call the primary Nebula, they tell us that it was a cosmic explosion or a secondary explosion that gave rise to the sun, the stars, the planets and even the Earth we live on.

Yunus: Is this what you believe?

Bob: Yes of course, these are established facts based on scientific proofs. In fact, this idea was realised in 1973 and termed the 'BIG BANG' theory.

Yunus: I see, well I have a surprise for you....In the Holy Quraan, chapter 21, verse 30 says. "Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then I split them apart". Here we can see that the Holy Quraan is speaking about this 'BIG BANG' theory and let me tell you that the Holy Quraan was revealed over 1400 years ago.

Bob: I have heard about the Quraan, but can you refresh my memory.

Yunus: Sure, the Muslim believes the Quraan to be the word of God, pure and unadulterated which was revealed verbally to the Prophet _____ of Islam, Mohammed, Peace be upon him, through the agency of the Angel Gabriel. The Holy Quraan was completed over a period of 23 years, that is over the prophetic life of the Prophet _____________ of Islam.

Bob: Are you sure that the Quraan is over 14 centuries old and secondly, that the Quraan has not been changed.

Yunus: Absolutely, it is a historical fact that the Holy Quraan was completed in the seventh century and has remained unchanged ever since. Historians, whether friends or foes to Islam, testify to this.

Bob: Well then, perhaps it's a guess.

Yunus:.....What does science say about the shape of the Earth ?

Bob: Previously, Man thought that the Earth was flat, until Sir Frances Drake in 1607 finally proved it to be spherical. Today, the term Geoid is used to describe this spherical shape.

Yunus: Amazingly the Holy Quraan in chapter 31, verse 29 says, "Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night." The use of the word merges emphasizes a slow gradual change, and this is not possible if the earth is flat.

Bob: Go on.

Yunus: Further in chapter 39, verse 5, it says, "He coils the night upon the day and he coils the day upon the night." The word used in the original arabic text is "Kaw'wara" which means coils or winds, the significance of this verb is that you usually coil something around a rather spherical object. You say that this fact was discovered recently, well relatively recently, who could have mentioned this in the Holy Quraan over 1400 years ago ?

Bob: I'm not convinced.

Yunus: Fine, tell me where the light of the Moon comes from?

Bob: Centuries ago people thought that the Moon was a miniature version of the Sun and that both emitted their own light, but recently studies confirmed that the Moon reflected the Sun's light.

Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 25, verse 61 mentions, "Blessed is the one who placed the constellations in the Heaven and placed therein a lamp and a Moon reflecting light." Here the Sun is referred to as a lamp for it has its own illumination, while the Moon is said to have reflected light or borrowed light, meaning not its own.

Bob: Its probably conjecture...guesswork.

Yunus: For the sake of a discussion I won't argue. Anyway, let us proceed....... When I was in school in the 80's, my teacher told me that the Sun remains stationary whilst the planets although rotating around their axes do revolve around the Sun as well.

Bob: Is that what your Quraan says, that the Sun is stationary....Ha!

Yunus: No, the Holy Quraan does not say this. This is what I learned in school.

Bob: Today, science has advanced. We have come to know that the Sun does in fact revolve around its own axis. You see, the Sun if observed with the apppropriate scientific apparatus reveals to possess the "Black spots". Continuous observation shows that these black spots take 25 days to complete a revolution. Therefore we conclude that the Sun rotates and that it takes approximately 25 days to complete one full rotation around its axis.

Yunus: Well, this is nothing new to the muslim for it is revealed in the Holy Quraan in chapter 21, verse 33, "(God is) the One who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon, each one spinning around its own axis (travelling in an orbit)". Here it is evident that the Sun and the Moon both rotate and further the celestial law of orbital movement is made mention of. You tell me who could have mentioned these scientific facts in the Holy Quraan which you say was discovered recently by your scientists ? Before you answer that question, tell me......is there a difference between a star and a planet?

Bob: Yes, today we know that stars are heavenly bodies like the Sun in that they produce their own light, while planets on the other hand, do not produce their own light....like the earth on which we live.

Yunus: The Holy Quraan mentions scientific facts not only in the field of astronomy.

Bob: I'm listening.

Yunus: In several verses of the Holy Quraan the details of the water cycle is mentioned. It explains that the water from the earth and ground rises up and forms clouds .............. these clouds condense, there is lightning and rain falls from the clouds. This is evident from the following quotations ...........chapter 39, verse 21, "Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground, and come forth as springs.......", In chapter 23, verse 18, "We sent down water from the sky measure and lodged it in the ground and we certainly are able to withdraw it", and also in chapter 24, verse 43, "Have you not seen that God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap. And you see rain drops falling from the midst of it ........"

Bob: According to my knowledge, the first coherent account of the water cycle was presented by Bernard Palissy in 1580.

Yunus: This is the exact distinction that the Holy Quraan makes between stars and planets. In chapter 86, verse 1-3, "By the sky and the night visitor, who will tell you what the night visitor is, the star of piercing brightness", which obviously refer to the stars. The planets are described as ornaments in chapter 37, verse 6, as it reads, "We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with ornaments, the planets".

Bob: ............................... Hmmmmmm.........................It is no secret that the Arabs were advanced in the field of astronomy, and perhaps it was these learned astronomers that passed their findings to the Prophet _____________.

Yunus: I do agree that the Arabs were advanced in astronomy, but I'm afraid that you have the order or sequence of events incorrect.

Bob: What do you mean?!

Yunus: Let me remind you that the Holy Quraan was revealed centuries before the Arabs became advanced in this field of astronomy, so it was the Arabs who learnt about astronomy from the Quraan and most definitely not vice versa.

The Holy Quraan in chapter 30, verse 48 mentions that, "God is the one who sends forth the winds which raised up the clouds. He spreads them in the sky as he wills and breaks them into fragments. Then you see rain drops issuing from within them.....". While on the topic of Geography, I am sure you understand what is meant by the term "Folding".

Bob: Yes, you see.... the crust of the earth is relatively thin and mountain ranges due to the phenomenon of folding provides stability for the earth.

Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 78, verse 6-7 gives us an indication of the very same phenomenon as it says, "Have we not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes".

Here the word "stakes" is synonymous with the word pegs as in holding the earth in place. Further the first part of this verse shows us that the earth is not flat for it is an expanse ..... meaning that you can walk and walk without falling off.

The former idea is clarified in chapter 21, verse 31....."We placed the ground (mountains) standing firm so that it does not shake with them". Here we are told that mountains allow for the maintenance of the earths stability by preventing the earth's shape to change in such a way so as to cause it to move out of its orbit. Permit me to go on ........scientists pointed out recently that salt water and fresh water do not mix.......is that correct ?

Bob: That is correct.....this phenomenon is observed at various locations......for example the region where the Nile river meets with the Mediterranean sea and more especially in the Gulf stream where these two bodies of water flow together for thousands of kilometres.

Yunus: In chapter 25, verse 53 it reads, ....... "God is the one that has let free two seas, one is sweet and palatable and the other is salty and bitter. He placed an unseen barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to pass". A similar message is given in chapter 55, verses 19 and 20, "He has loosed the two seas. They meet together. Between them there is an unseen barrier which they do not transgress........"

Bob: Maybe some Arabs whist diving or swimming made such an observation.

Yunus: Unlikely, what you fail to realize is that the Holy Quraan too testifies that it is an unseen barrier and therefore it could not and still cannot be observed.

Bob: I see..... according to Darwinism and the theory of evolution, it is claimed that all life began in the sea or oceans.........can you tell me what does your Quraan say about this.....if anything at all.

Yunus: Yes, but first tell me just why does this theory have such a conclusion.....that life began in the Oceans....

Bob: Well, one of the reasons is that the chemical make-up or composition of human and animal life shows that water is the chief constituent. In fact between 50 and 90 %.

Yunus: In chapter 21, verse 30, it also says.............."And We made every living thing from water. Will they still not believe". Can you imagine that in the deserts of Arabia, where there is obviously a scarcity of water, who would have guessed that not only man but every living thing is made from
water.

Bob: I am aware that Cytoplasm, the main constituent of the cell is composed of approximately eighty percent water and that every living creature is of fifty or ninety percent water.

Yunus: Who could have mentioned these facts in the Quraan over 1400 years ago ?...there are over hundreds of facts in the Holy Quraan that modern science cannot find fault with today. On the topic of theories .......Can you explain to me just what is meant by the theory of drifting continents.

Bob: Sure, all our continents were at one time parts of one consolidated land mass, then following an explosion, they were scattered or rather pushed away all over the surface of the earth. Therefore if you look carefully at the world map, you would see for example that the East coast of South America would fit neatly against the West coast of Africa.

Yunus: A similar idea is reflected in the Holy Quraan in the chapter 79, verse 30, "and the earth He extended after that and then drew from it water and pastures". It says that the Earth passed through a stage when God had caused the land masses to drift apart.

Bob: Are you using scientific knowledge to prove the Quraan ?

Yunus: No, the Quraan is not a book of science but rather a book of signs. In fact, it has over 6000 signs (verses) out of which 1000 of these deal with scientific knowledge. I am not using science to prove something correct, you need a yardstick or knowledge that is absolute, something ultimate.....

Yunus: To the educated men like yourself, those that do not believe in God, science is generally your yardstick.....but to the Muslim, the Holy Quraan is our ultimate yardstick....the Quraan is also referred to as the "Furqaan" which is the arabic word meaning, the criterion between that which is right and that which is wrong. Therefore I am using your yardstick 'science' to prove to you what is said in the Holy Quraan. What your yardstick has said in relatively recent times ...... mine has said 14 centuries ago. Can we agree, therefore, that the Quraan is superior to science and that the Quraan is the ultimate yardstick.

Bob: Tell me more.

Yunus: The Quraan says in chapter 20, verse 53, "(God is the one) who sent down rain from the sky and with it brought forth a variety of plants in pairs". Here the Holy Quraan mentions a scientific fact which was discovered much later in history ..... that is .......the plant kingdom too has male and female types. This is also echoed in chapter 13, verse 3, "...........and of all fruits (God) placed on the earth two pairs ......."

Yunus: A branch of the field of Zoology has recently pointed out that there exists various social dynamics in the animal world. The Holy Quraan tells us the same, that the animals and birds live in communities in chapter 6, verse 38, "There is no animal on earth, no bird which flies on wings, that (does not belong to) communities like you .....".

Yunus: If I tell you that the Holy Quraan tells us of ants talking to one another, you will probably laugh, but the branch of Zoology that I am telling you about, has found the animal or insect which closely resembles the dynamics of the human, is the ant ....... for apart from an extremely 'advanced' system of communication (as is mentioned in the Holy Quraan, chapter 27, verse 18), They ..... the ants bury the dead and can have what can be said to be an equivalent of a market place.

Bob: Perhaps your Prophet _____________ was a very observant man who made notes of them.

Yunus: First I would like to inform you that history years witness that the Prophet _____________ of Islam was an illiterate man in that he had no formal schooling and therefore could not read nor write. In fact at that time a great majority of Arabs were illiterate with only a negligible number who were literate. Nonetheless, it is also mentioned that it is the female bee that collects honey ........ Do you think that anybody could be so observant as to pick this up? You have just reminded me about something even more significant; in chapter 16, verse 69, it reads, "...... from their (bees) bodies comes a liquor of different colours wherein is a remedy for men." Today the medical scientist tell us that there are antiseptic qualities and applications of honey. Furthermore, I believe that it is used in the treatment of various allergies.

Bob: No wonder the Russian soldiers used to apply honey on their wounds. Yes, and as a result, the wounds left very little scar tissue.

Yunus: In chapter 16, verse 66, the Holy Quraan described blood circulation with regard to the production of milk in the cow ....... a thousand years before William Harvey made it famous to the western world. Let us examine the above mentioned reference, "Verily, in cattle too is a lesson for you, we give to you to drink of what is in their bodies, coming from a conjugation between the contents of the intestine and the blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it."

Bob: Tell me ...... what does the Quraan say about human beings?

Yunus: This question calls for a dissertation, for the Quraan deals with humans from before the time of conception until after death. .....But will you accept a brief exposition on some of the human embryo logical data or proofs presented in the Quraan?

Bob: Please go on. This is interesting.

Yunus: We know that after fertilization, the egg or ovum descends from the fallopian tube to lodge itself inside the uterus for gestation. This is described in chapter 22, verse 5, ".... We cause whom we will to rest in the womb for an appointed term......". As you know, there are structures or elongations from the egg which develops to draw nourishment from the uterus which is necessary for growth. These structural formations make the egg or rather the zygote seem to be literally clinging to the uterus ....... this, doubtedly, is a scientific discovery of modern times for the western world.

Did you know this appearance of clinging is described five times in the Holy Quraan. For example, in chapter 96, verses 1 & 2, "Read, in the name of your Lord who fashioned man from something which clings". Similar ideas are found in chapter 22, verse 5 - chapter 23, verse 14 and chapters 40 & 75. Furthermore, foetal growth is described in great detail in chapter 23, verse 14, with regard to the development of the skeleton. "Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; Then made that clot into a lump (foetus); then We made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones with flesh ............" ........ the verse goes on further in this manner of description.

Also with regard to the order or sequence of the senses, the Holy Quraan in chapter 32, verse 9 says, "......... He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and of sight........". Today, medical cience cannot argue with this sequence development of the senses in the foetus for it confirms that the development of hearing is completed by five months of pregnancy and that the eye is split open by the seventh month of pregnancy.

These facts and more have been brought to light by the western world as late as 1940. Furthermore, Professor Keith More, an embryologist at the university of Toronto in Canada, was asked to make a comparative study of the Embryo logical data in the Holy Quraan with that of modern scientific knowledge and he responded as follows, "The 1300 year old Quraan contains messages so accurate about embryonic development that muslims can reasonably believe them to be from God."

Bob: If this is true then how come it has not been recorded in the media?

Yunus: But it was ....... check the archives ......for example ....... the citizen, a Canadian Newspaper dated 22 November 1984, under the heading "Ancient Holy Book 1300 years ahead of its time". Or the times of India, New Delhi ...... dated 10 December 1984 under the caption "Koran scores over modern sciences."

Bob: This is really fascinating......don't stop..........continue....

Yunus: At this point I am reminded of a very powerful verse of the Holy Quraan which appears in chapter 41, verse 53, "Soon shall we show them our signs in the (furthest) regions of the earth , and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth......".

Yunus: The holy Quraan even speaks about diabetics.

Bob: What do you mean?

Yunus: You see, certain foodstuffs are declared unfit for human consumption and are therefore prohibited.

Bob: While we are on the topic of food ....... tell me why is it that a muslim is very particular about the words Halaal and Haraam ...... What do they mean?

Yunus: That which is permissible is termed Halaal and that which is not permissible is termed Haraam and it is the Quraan which draws the distinction between the two.

Bob: Can you give me an example ?

Yunus: Yes, Islam has prohibited blood of any type. You will agree that a chemical analysis of blood shows that it contains an abundance of uric acid, a chemical substance which can be injurious to human health.

Bob: You're right about the toxic nature of uric acid, in the human being it is excreted as a waste product....... in fact we are told that 98% of the bodies uric acid is extracted from the blood by the kidneys and removed through urination.

Yunus: Now I think that you'll appreciate the special prescribed method of animal slaughter in Islam.

Bob: What do you mean ?

Yunus: You see.....the wielder of the knife, whilst taking the name of the Almighty, makes an incision through the jugular veins, leaving all other veins of the neck intact.

Bob: I see.....this causes the death of the animal by a total loss of blood from the body, rather than an injury to any vital organ.

Yunus: Yes, were the organs, example the heart, the liver, or the brain crippled or damaged, the animal could die immediately and its blood would congeal in its veins and would eventually permeate (spread throughout) the flesh. This implies that the animal flesh would be permeated and contaminated with uric acid and therefore very poisonous ...... only today did our dietitians realise such a thing.

Bob: Again, while on the topic of food........ Why do Muslims condemn the eating of pork or ham or any foods related to pigs or swine.

Yunus: Actually, apart from the Quraan prohibiting the consumption of pig flesh, ......in fact the Bible too in Leviticus chapter 11, verse 8, .....regarding swine it says, "of their flesh (of the swine) shall you not eat, and of their carcase you shall not touch; they are unclean to you." Further, did you know that a pig cannot be slaughtered at the neck for it does not have a neck ..........that is according to its natural anatomy. A Muslim reasons that if the pig was to be slaughtered and fit for human consumption the creator would have provided it with a neck. Nonetheless, ........all that aside, I am sure you are well informed about the harmful effects of the consumption of pork, in any form, be it pork chops ...... ham ...... bacon.......

Bob: The medical sciences find that there is a risk for various diseases as the pig is found to be a host for many parasites and potential diseases.

Yunus: Yes, even apart from that ....as we talked about uric acid content in the blood.....it is important to note that the pig's biochemistry excretes only 2% of its total uric acid content...... the remaining 98% remains as an integral part of the body. This explains the high rate of Rheumatism found in those who consume pork.

Bob: Let's fasten our seatbelts ......I think we are going to land shortly .... I guess its true - time does fly when you're having fun. I've never heard these arguments before and I'd like to hear more.......just what is the basic theme of the Holy Quraan anyway ?

Yunus: The basic theme is of salvation, in this life and in the life hereafter..... it does not fall into the category of any known arts or sciences of the world, but since it addresses itself to mankind, it touches on almost all the disciplines which concern Him. Thus the Quraan surprisingly encompassed truths which were to be discovered and confirmed much later as our discussion has shown.

Yunus: This reminds me of the wise words of Sir Francis, who said, "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty".

Thereafter nobody said a word ........they each sat back and looked forward waiting for touch down.........

Maybe Mormonism and Islam were created in the 60s or 70s. Who more natural to be God than your parents?

[catatonic]

You guys are so nice to me, except when I try to post on the regular boards or talk about religion!

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergano/2006-04-23-mu-change_x.htm?csp=15

They just apparently discovered that constants may change over time.