Well, there's no topics about this yet

[ericlee]

Two Soldiers missing (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060618/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_soldiers_missing)

[enree erzweglle]

I wish this thread was in Sure Shots so that I could post a photo of those two boys and people could look at their faces and maybe look deep into their eyes and apologize.

Those kids are so young--the age of a lot of you. I can't imagine what they went through and what their families are going through now. :( :(

Thomas Tucker (http://www.foxnews.com/images/209000/11_25_061906_missing_soldier.jpg)

Kristian Menchaca (http://www.foxnews.com/images/209184/9_24_061906_troop2.jpg)

[Qdrop]

they're dead.

they were found dead yesterday.

[enree erzweglle]

they're dead.

they were found dead yesterday.I know--it was all over the news and newspapers last night.

The Tucker family is holding out hope that there's been a mistake. I think I understand that because you can go weeks and weeks without hearing from people who are stationed over there.

Makes me sick in my stomach.

[ericlee]

it was real upsetting when I read that the "remains" of these soldiers had been found and there was a trail of ieds leading to them.

Supposedly, the new leader of Al Qaeda is claiming full responsibility of these murders.

[enree erzweglle]

it was real upsetting when I read that the "remains" of these soldiers had been found and there was a trail of ieds leading to them.With mass communication, it's nearly impossible to avoid news and the details about the way those kids died. In previous wars, families could avoid reading specific details, they could avoid knowing about torture or barbarism if they wanted to or needed to. But now, it's plastered everywhere, it's on every TV, on the sidebars of so many Web pages and news sites. It's like seeing heads on pikes. The families--how do they even begin to deal with that. I honestly wonder if I'd lose my mind if I knew that my kid was tortured to death.

[drizl]

i dont mean to down play this...my heart goes out to their families and i cant imagine the pain and terror that those two had to go through. its terrible.

but we must give equal attention to those who are innocent, who have done nothing but have been tortured and murdered. these are the realities of war. this is hatred, fear aggression and murder on all sides. so much media is given to the number of american soldiers killed. take that number and multiply it by 100. there have been over 200,000 INNOCENT iraqis killed.

its one thing when you choose to become a soldier. when you say to yourself, i am going in and i am willing to give my life and take the life f others so that america, or what ever country i am from can gain the advantages of my sacrifice. its a whole different thing when you are an innocent civilian and paranoia and fear have gripped the invading force into breaking down your door and kidnapping your father, or brother, or mother or sister. and you never see or hear from them again. or the "shock and awe" horror that we all watched on cnn and other news media outlets. we rained down bombs into downtown baghdad. in the first three days of the american invasion, more bombs were dropped than in the entire vietnam conflict.

i guess my point is: it is awful, on all sides. this war, and all wars need to stop. politics has done enough to humanity. war is never good. it is always ugly and there will always be stories such as this. we should not be shocked, but this should be all the more reason to put an end to this war NOW. we have done enough damage, sacraficed enough life, destroyed enough culture and environment. let this be one day closer towards peace.

[enree erzweglle]

I get that, completely. The numbers of civilians killed in and around this war is astounding. It's hard to find the numbers. They're well hidden, I think.

its one thing when you choose to become a soldier. when you say to yourself, i am going in and i am willing to give my life and take the life f others so that america, or what ever country i am from can gain the advantages of my sacrifice.
I contend that a LOT of soldiers enlist without being fully informed, without getting the facts completely, after they've been sweet-talked and pressured by smooth recruiters. Some of them do enlist fully knowing about deployment possibilities and some of them want to be deployed to active combat zones, maybe even this one because some of them do believe in this war. Other kids do it so that they can be available to help the U.S. in war efforts but don't necessarily support this particular war. None of those kids have a choice or even a voice about anything related to deployment. They go where they're told, when they're told. They want to defend against obvious attacks, but the lines get blurred in war situations like this one.

My kid could well get deployed to Iraq. He is and always has been staunchly against this war and its causes, and could not be more anti-Bush. But he'll go where he's deployed and do what they tell him to do even if it conflicts with his own ideology. It is a mind-blowing thought.

[ericlee]

Anyone who's considering being a soldier should watch the news to realize that it doesn't matter how swiftly the recruiter talks to you, you won't have your choice of a permenant duty station.

It's a given that any new soldiers will be deployed to Iraq before anywhere else. Hence the rank of both of these soldiers. Both were pfcs and the one that was gunned down and killed at the checkpoint was a private as well. All 3 of them being green and sent to the "triangle of death" on their own.

I'm just wondering where was the NCOIC? Why were there 3 green soldiers out there manning such a dangerous place?

[kaiser soze]

very sad and bad news

Too many civilians and soldiers have died for this illegal war of lies

I agree with drizl, the deaths of soldiers will be honored by nations while the deaths of the innocents will only be mourned by their families

sad to say...but the U.S. is doing exactly what Saddam did to Kuwait with even more horrible consequences

WHERE THE FUCK ARE THOSE WMD's bUSH??? UNDER YOUR NIGHTSTAND?? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4596717/)

[ericlee]

WHERE THE FUCK ARE THOSE WMD's bUSH??? UNDER YOUR NIGHTSTAND?? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4596717/)

"Bwhahahah, I invaded a country because I thought there were big ole weapons. Bwahaha it's a real huge mess now and two soldiers were brutally tortured and killed because of me.. Bwhahaha it aint going to be over till god knows when... I SO FUNNEH"

[drizl]

kaiser, that article about bush just made me want to vomit. can you believe the arrogance of this guy!? i am speechless...well, more like i am refraining from getting angry.

as much as i understand how people go into the military for the incentives, schooling, and the opportunity to get out of the ghetto where there is no future, and into a career where all sorts of possibilities open up....
every human being should know what they are getting into when it comes to signing up to be a soldier. its hard for me to say, because i am armed with the weapons of priviledge. i am white, i am middle class, i am healthy, and educated. i am in the small percent of the richest in the world even though i make by my societies standards, not that much.
BUT if you are signing up for the military, you are signing your life away. you are giving your life to the government to be assigned to a place for a war with the good possibility that you will kill or be killed- especially since 9-11 and the declaration of the "war on terror". these are not good times to be in the military, because our leadership is deceptive and corrupt. they are starting wars based on lies that they are well aware of. they fabricated evidence, and construed intelligence.
how can you trust your life to a corrupt system which starts wars for no good reason at all?

[enree erzweglle]

as much as i understand how people go into the military for the incentives, schooling, and the opportunity to get out of the ghetto where there is no future, and into a career where all sorts of possibilities open up....
every human being should know what they are getting into when it comes to signing up to be a soldier. its hard for me to say, because i am armed with the weapons of priviledge. i am white, i am middle class, i am healthy, and educated. i am in the small percent of the richest in the world even though i make by my societies standards, not that much.Well, my kid was armed similarly as well (upper-middle class, no tuition or loans, history of private schools, honor student, etc.) and for four years in high school and a year in college, he organized anti-Bush & anti-war rallies. I have photos of him at many peace rallies. So he was definitely involved and aware--he watched and read the news, multiple statoins and sources, more than anyone I know.

It's a bit of an enigma, really--destined, maybe, to be a great mystery of my life life--to know how, exactly, those campus recruiters worked on him. I think he has a deep need to help and serve people--we did a lot of that sort of work as he was growing up. Maybe those recruiters picked up on that and appealed to his need to help. But the problem is that plant the seed of consideration in these young kids and then they rush them through the decision process amazingly quickly. They set up a bunch of arbitrary enlistment and contract deadlines, and push the kids through these decisions at the speed of light. That, in my mind, should be illegal. There should be some mandatory waiting period before a kid signs it all away. I also think it's obscene to have recruitment offices on college campuses.

I think about this more than I should and am trying to figure out how to direct my passion about this into something more fruitful. I have to ban together with other pissed off mothers, I think, and fume all of this into something actionable.

[Bob]

I also think it's obscene to have recruitment offices on college campuses.


i think for a week, they set up tables at my high school, too.

[abcdefz]

I'm glad I didn't grow up in a country with mandatory service.

[Bob]

I'm glad I didn't grow up in a country with mandatory service.

or a time period, at any rate

[enree erzweglle]

i think for a week, they set up tables at my high school, too.There's something that's inherently more controlled about that, though. The recruiters at high schools are there mostly to give out literature and to talk to you if you talk to them first. It's a one-off sort of thing.

When a kid lives on a college campus, all bets are off in that regard and I suspect that those recruiters make repeated & dedicated efforts to lure in recruitees. They can work on them over time and without any oversight. Most importantly, the recruiters can make first contact. (I think at the high school where my son went and at others in the area, the kid had to initiate contact with the recruiter.)

I think there needs to be reform wrt a lot of this.

[ericlee]

i think for a week, they set up tables at my high school, too.

hometown recruitment. If you have just completed A.I.T, you're supposed to do 20 days whether it be in a mall or high school, or, if you've been in the service for more than 5 years, you could pick being a recruiter as an m.o.s and do the same thing.

I skipped my hometown recruitment and just enjoyed time with family and friends. I didn't get in trouble for it either.

[Bob]

i guess that's true, yeah. i don't remember getting approached at college at all. strange, i'm such a statuesque man, i'm surprised they didn't jump at me.

some marine recruiter did call my house once, i think i was in high school at the time. i was about to ask if the marines had any cute guys enlisted, because he didn't seem like he was gonna hang up any time soon, but eventually he did.

we still get recruitment mail for my invisible brother roger, who is 4 years younger than me. he doesn't exist, but we still get mail from colleges and the armed forces for him. i wonder if he's registered for the draft.

[kaiser soze]

I'm glad I didn't grow up in a country with mandatory service.


Ironically most of the nations with mandatory service at this time are not fighting in many battles/wars, if any.

[drizl]

Ironically most of the nations with mandatory service at this time are not fighting in many battles/wars, if any.


i had an interesting talk with this guy i was working for last summer about this. his view was that if we had mandatory service, more people would care about the war because more people would be directly affected by it. a very good point i think.

enree- i totally agree about the recruitment issue. at the blues festival two weeks ago, there were four army booths, and 3 GIANT truck trailers with virtual tours in them and all this shit. people were walking around carrying all sorts of little free army giveaways. they were all over my campus too, and i would always ignore them when i walked by. have you seen michael moores fahrenheit 911 where it shows the recruiters targeting people and all that?
i think another issue is videogames. and im sure this is controversial with many here at the board. but i truly think that kids who play violent games have more violent tendencies. especially games sponsored by the army and navy...i remember right before the iraq war, there was a videogame out which showed in the commercial, saddam hussein in the crosshairs. sick.

if you get something together, let me know, i would love to help in any way i can. i really wish i could have been a part of the whole camp casey thing. and then move on to new orleans with all of them. it would have been a great experience and empowering as well. anyways, i hope that im not being abbrasive in any of this, just my opinions.

[enree erzweglle]

enree- i totally agree about the recruitment issue. at the blues festival two weeks ago, there were four army booths, and 3 GIANT truck trailers with virtual tours in them and all this shit. people were walking around carrying all sorts of little free army giveaways. they were all over my campus too, and i would always ignore them when i walked by. have you seen michael moores fahrenheit 911 where it shows the recruiters targeting people and all that?I have seen that--and I have Why We Fight on my Netflix queue. I guess it should be coming soon.

i think another issue is videogames. and im sure this is controversial with many here at the board. but i truly think that kids who play violent games have more violent tendencies. especially games sponsored by the army and navy...i remember right before the iraq war, there was a videogame out which showed in the commercial, saddam hussein in the crosshairs. sick.Those first-person shooter games are scary. Really scary. Those kids get habituated quickly.

I never let my kid have those games in our house, but he had access to them easily enough otherwise. I remember asking him not to play them and I think he complied or did so for a long time.

if you get something together, let me know, i would love to help in any way i can. i really wish i could have been a part of the whole camp casey thing. and then move on to new orleans with all of them. it would have been a great experience and empowering as well. anyways, i hope that im not being abbrasive in any of this, just my opinions.

That is so kind--thank you for that offer. I'm actually not sure where I want to go with this, but I do know that in my life when I get the feelings that are just now starting to brew, I've learned not to ignore them. I just have to find out how to work them into something fruitful and feasible.

[Funkaloyd]

Those kids get habituated quickly.
Habituated to clicking on polygons and making them change position then disappear.

[Bob]

there's also a game where at the end you get to kung fu fight with osama. it sucks, though.

[ericlee]

I've just now read how they got ambushed. There was more than 3 soldiers at that checkpoint.

A group of insurgents came to cause a distraction and ran which sent all of the other soldiers running after them which left the 2 pfcs and one specialist isolated at the checkpoint.

That was the whole reason why I posted this thread. When I first read it, I was thinking why are there 3 green soldiers manning a deadly checkpoint by themselves. Even now after reading it, the lack of military training is still showing. For one thing, if they had to man this position, there should have been at least 2 NCOs present and with that, they would have advised the soldiers not to go running after the insurgents in the first place. If you are stationed at a post, you are not supposed to leave it. PERIOD.

Now, if there were NCOs present and they were with the soldiers running after the insurgents, they need to get court marshalled.

For the video game influence thing. This is just my thought and has always been. Son of Sam was influenced by the devil through his dog to kill people which has pretty much the same fictional influence as a video game. What I'm saying is that if someone's kid gets influenced to go and commit violence after playing a video game, then they've had problems before the video games.

[enree erzweglle]

That was the whole reason why I posted this thread. When I first read it, I was thinking why are there 3 green soldiers manning a deadly checkpoint by themselves. Even now after reading it, the lack of military training is still showing. For one thing, if they had to man this position, there should have been at least 2 NCOs present and with that, they would have advised the soldiers not to go running after the insurgents in the first place. If you are stationed at a post, you are not supposed to leave it. PERIOD.I am so glad to have your insight on that! I'd read that the one (the one from Oregon) enlisted last summer and was sent to Iraq just a few months ago. When I read that, I thought, wow, that's not a whole lot of time to be doing what they were doing. So thanks for giving that background. Honestly.

[ericlee]

I am so glad to have your insight on that! I'd read that the one (the one from Oregon) enlisted last summer and was sent to Iraq just a few months ago. When I read that, I thought, wow, that's not a whole lot of time to be doing what they were doing. So thanks for giving that background. Honestly.

What bugs the piss outta me the most is that during basic training, you are given a set of general orders. Every soldier is required to know these by heart and they are drilled into thier head. I even had to go through the gas chamber and when they ordered us to take our masks off, a drill segreant asked me what my general orders were. Of course all I could do was gasp and gag as soon as I opened my mouth but still.

The first general order, I can't remember it word by word anymore because I've been out for a while is: I will guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly relieved.

Now, see the outcome when the first general order is violated?

[enree erzweglle]

What bugs the piss outta me the most is that during basic training, you are given a set of general orders. Every soldier is required to know these by heart and they are drilled into thier head. I even had to go through the gas chamber and when they ordered us to take our masks off, a drill segreant asked me what my general orders were. Of course all I could do was gasp and gag as soon as I opened my mouth but still.

The first general order, I can't remember it word by word anymore because I've been out for a while is: I will guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly relieved.

Now, see the outcome when the first general order is violated?My kid went through gas chamber training about a month ago. I saw a video about it on Sunday and it looked intense and yes, gaggy and spitty. :eek:

ericlee, what a blessing your post is. Your words are this great comfort to me not just in terms of what my kid is doing right now, but also in terms of how these kids who are in active combat have been trained.