Earthlings (movie) - - - warning quite graphic

[kaiser soze]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3251419433163515470&q=Earthlings

When will the "most intelligent" species on this planet realize the suffering of all animals including humans?

unbelievable what these poor things go through just to become a fucking hotdog, a burger, a strip of bacon, or a chicken nugget

[Qdrop]

that whole concept is just flawed...

why are all animals "equal"?
why should humans consider other animals our "equal"?

it is a philosophical question at BEST....there is no epistimilogical "truth" to any of it.
you cannot "prove" that a pig is equal to a human.
unless you show tangible, grounded connections between the treatment of a bear in a circus, and the survival of mankind...then you will always have bears in a circus with rings in thier noses, being brutalized.
things such as this disgust me, but i can come up with no scientifically, or even morally, grounded reason that i can argue for it to stop.
that fact that is disgusts me is not enough....because there are others who are not disgusted by it.
how can i "prove" that i am "more right" than them?

how can someone argue that humans and animals are equal...but that we are "better" than plants (we have to eat something, right?).
it seems rather arbitrary and convenient to move the "equality meter" down the sliderule at will...stopping just before plants, so that we have something to eat.
if one can do that, why can't another move the "equality meter" up to just after other animals, so that we can eat them and treat them however we want?

i really hate hunting.
i wish stock animals would be treated more humanly when being bred for food.
i hate circuses.
i hate animal cruelty for human entertainment.
but i cannot argue these points down to mathmatical truth.
no one can.

[Pres Zount]

If humans find it disgusting, then it is a truth.

[Qdrop]

If humans find it disgusting, then it is a truth.

no, it's an opinion.

other humans don't find it disgusting.

who's right?

prove it.

[Funkaloyd]

you cannot "prove" that a pig is equal to a human.
Can you prove that you and me are equals, or deserving of equality?

[Qdrop]

Can you prove that you and me are equals, or deserving of equality?

it's not easy (as history has shown).
racially and ethnically, i can show you that there are no significant genetic differances between those groups (intellect, ability, behavior, etc), thus no deserving discrimination.

as far as all individuals being equal, i personally don't subscribe to that theory either. Casting aside presumtpions, prejudice, etc....i think a person's worth (to society) is the sum of thier actions and contributions.
you cannot convince me that a serial killer is "equal" to, say, Mother Theresa.

it's also important to note that THE key point in this debate over other animals equality to humans....is food source.
animals have been, and continue to be a food source to most other humans.

rarely are humans food sources to other humans....cannabilist activity is an exception, not a rule...even in historical cannabalist societies.....

[Pres Zount]

no, it's an opinion.

other humans don't find it disgusting.

who's right?

prove it.

The Intelligent Majority are right. Where do truths come from, if not from ourselves?

[Qdrop]

The Intelligent Majority are right. Where do truths come from, if not from ourselves?

objective truths are discovered, not created.

the earth orbits the sun.
this is an objective truth that can be proven.

x + 2 = 2 + x

this can be proven.

objective truths exist whether or not humans are there to witness or discover them.
a tree that falls in the forest makes a sound, whether someone hears it or not.

----------

Nazis considered themselves the intelligent majority.
so did stalin.

so did white people in the 1700's.

who decides who the intelligent majority are?
does "might make right"?

[Funkaloyd]

THE key point in this debate over other animals equality to humans....is food source.
animals have been, and continue to be a food source to most other humans.
rarely are humans food sources to other humans
What about those creatures which humans have rarely, if ever, used for sustenance? Should amoebae have rights?

racially and ethnically, i can show you that there are no significant genetic differances between those groups (intellect, ability, behavior, etc), thus no deserving discrimination.But there are differences. What's a significant difference? It sounds arbitrary: I could say "there's no significant genetic difference between humans and other mammals.

[Qdrop]

What about those creatures which humans have rarely, if ever, used for sustenance? Should amoebae have rights?
amoebas?
i suppose you could make a case for it.
see, that's why it's so difficult.

But there are differences. What's a significant difference? It sounds arbitrary: I could say "there's no significant genetic difference between humans and other mammals. with "differance", i was referring to intellectual or behavior differances, which is what racists and the like tend to cite as justifications for thier racist beliefs.
that is scientifically false.

i suppose the best response to both your questions, and similar ones....is (for me) to look to natural law as much as possible.
natural law is an evolved reality which basically supports itself...a tautology perhaps....
but regardless....we are in existance because of natural law. we owe our lives to it.

so i try to look to nature with things like this.
animals don't play "equals"...except for kinship (which has it's limits), and to some degree, a species bond of sorts (killing within a species tends to be far more rare than the killing of other species).
what i'm getting at here, is the FOOD CHAIN.
very few species engage in cannabilism except under dire situations (desparation)...otherwise, they hunt a "lesser" prey. a prey they can dominate for whatever reasons.
that's not right or wrong...it just is.

we, as humans, can go against that with our abilities of self-awareness and conscious choice.....but then, it just becomes arbitrary...philosophical.
i'm not saying we shouldn't use our ability to consciously choose and rationalize....that's a wonderful thing.
i'm not a social darwinist....or a satanist (who often cite natural law as a justification for thier actions)...
it's just easiest to use natural law as a jumping off point when navigating topics like this.

[Bob]

should we only use objective truths as a basis for our moral code? do enough of those truths even exist to form a complete moral code? i think that at some point (in my opinion a very broad point), a society's moral code comes down to what the people collectively believe to be right and wrong. i don't think there are many, if any, objective rights and wrongs. it's not WRONG to kill people, but we collectively believe that it is, and have said that it is, so for our purposes, it is wrong to kill people.

rights and wrongs don't exist, we make them, for better or for worse. some of them are fairly agreeable and uncontroversial (rape is bad), some are more hotly debated (abortion is bad/not bad). eating meat, for the moment, seems to fall in the latter.

science is nice, but it can't discover morality, it can only influence our opinions about it.

in other news, i just finished eating a chicken salad sandwich while i was typing this, so i think you know how i feel about the topic at hand

[kaiser soze]

I knew Q would chime in this

First off, I do not believe myself nor the movie made any comments about "equality" between species, so I'm not sure what your trying to do with that argument. I am more concerned about how these animals and humans are made to suffer. You talk of Truth, what do you consider this video?

it's also important to note that THE key point in this debate over other animals equality to humans....is food source.
animals have been, and continue to be a food source to most other humans.

True...but does it have to done in such a filthy and masochisic manner? People taunted the animals, beat them, picked them up by their throats, stuffed them hard into tubes...Don't you think this behavior shows that the humans are also under emotional stress? These conditions cannot make them feel good about their lives.

You say it is impossible to place certain levels of equality on animals. But many cultures HAVE treated animals more humanely while preparing them for food, also using as much of the animal to survive, killing only when needing to be killed, and spiritually praising the animal for its contribution.

My argument is this, if humans claim to be "THE HIGHEST INTELLIGENCE", then why are we such brutal beings? After watching this movie I noticed a certain mentality with many of those working in a slaughterhouse. They are barbaric and cruel beyond belief.....and subhuman in my opinion. No different than the NAZI's working the gas chambers or the soldiers torturing and killing combatants and innocents in the Iraq war.

There is natural law, but it follows a balance. Hunter and Prey. What most humans and food animals have become is Consumer and Stock. There is no connection of conscience, there is no realization or rationalization, there is no work to earn your feed!

It's just a colorful package of meat on a cold shelf for you to pick up and put in your cart.

very few species engage in cannabilism except under dire situations (desparation)

But this happens quite a bit in slaughterhouses, very unnatural settings for any species.

This video shows a TRUTH, one that millions have very little to no idea about...even though it's the FOOD they are eating. If more people knew this TRUTH, I believe major changes could come.

This is what you put in your body to stay alive, is this how you want it to be treated?

[Qdrop]

First off, I do not believe myself nor the movie made any comments about "equality" between species, so I'm not sure what your trying to do with that argument.
that's what i got out of the first 20 min. or so.

True...but does it have to done in such a filthy and masochisic manner? People taunted the animals, beat them, picked them up by their throats, stuffed them hard into tubes...Don't you think this behavior shows that the humans are also under emotional stress? These conditions cannot make them feel good about their lives. oh, i agree. i would love to see the same reforms as you...
but the point i'm making is what makes us more "right" than those slaughterhouse workers?
it's just subjective opinion vs. subjective opinion.
that's why it's so hard to force change in areas like this.

My argument is this, if humans claim to be "THE HIGHEST INTELLIGENCE", then why are we such brutal beings? After watching this movie I noticed a certain mentality with many of those working in a slaughterhouse. They are barbaric and cruel beyond belief.....and subhuman in my opinion. No different than the NAZI's working the gas chambers or the soldiers torturing and killing combatants and innocents in the Iraq war. oh, avoid the hyperbole....

nazis? come on...
some of them seem kinda sick in the head....
but to presume that any of them would do this to jews, given the chance....
that's beyond presumptuous...

There is natural law, but it follows a balance. Hunter and Prey. What most humans and food animals have become is Consumer and Stock. There is no connection of conscience, there is no realization or rationalization, there is no work to earn your feed! that's not required.

"consumer and stock" is just a more orderly and organized version of Hunter and Prey.


This video shows a TRUTH, one that millions have very little to no idea about...even though it's the FOOD they are eating. but this video cannot PROVE that any of it is "wrong"...
no matter how much you or I think it is.

[Bob]

My argument is this, if humans claim to be "THE HIGHEST INTELLIGENCE", then why are we such brutal beings? After watching this movie I noticed a certain mentality with many of those working in a slaughterhouse. They are barbaric and cruel beyond belief.....and subhuman in my opinion. No different than the NAZI's working the gas chambers or the soldiers torturing and killing combatants and innocents in the Iraq war.


like a dolphin would be any gentler

[Qdrop]

like a dolphin would be any gentler

don't let those gentle eyes fool you...
dolphins would kill you and your entire family if they had the chance...

[Waus]

Between animals and humans I think it all comes down to self-awareness and the ability to make decisions. Humans choose between right and wrong, making our decisions more complex than mere instinct. Animals may have learned behaviors and act in ways that go beyond simple instinctual explanation, but most are in a sense biological machines.

Without getting into my religious beliefs - animals don't have the same sentience that humans have, regardless of intelligence. Cruelty against animals is wrong in my opinion, but not the humane killing of them to make different foods or products.

[fucktopgirl]

Between animals and humans I think it all comes down to self-awareness and the ability to make decisions. Humans choose between right and wrong, making our decisions more complex than mere instinct. Animals may have learned behaviors and act in ways that go beyond simple instinctual explanation, but most are in a sense biological machines.

Well, yea human have the capacities to choose between right and wrong but not a lot used it, The judgement of human is really poor nowadays.
HUman too are animals and instinct is a big factor in our life, well was. Now our own nature is getting dragged down, buried in the world of money and materialism and fakeness. YOU say that animal are just biological machine as we are too, this was our first role, procreation. A lots animal are dumber then human but a lot seem as , if not more intelligent then human, obviously then dont write and used a computer but they know stuff and feel things too. THey have too complexed, intricated social life where blood relationship is important ,sex, communication and so on. IT is juts not in the same dimension as us. WE cannot really say that we are superior to animals.




Without getting into my religious beliefs - animals don't have the same sentience that humans have, regardless of intelligence. Cruelty against animals is wrong in my opinion, but not the humane killing of them to make different foods or products.


Same sentience as same feeling, you dont thing some animals can feel pain,love , sadness ans such...c'mon !

The think is that human lack respect and they think they owned the earth and everything that live/ grow on it. So therefore they are killing animal without any kind of compassion, just coldhearted!

We are such dickhead and selfcenter creatures!

[D_Raay]

Between animals and humans I think it all comes down to self-awareness and the ability to make decisions. Humans choose between right and wrong, making our decisions more complex than mere instinct. Animals may have learned behaviors and act in ways that go beyond simple instinctual explanation, but most are in a sense biological machines.

Without getting into my religious beliefs - animals don't have the same sentience that humans have, regardless of intelligence. Cruelty against animals is wrong in my opinion, but not the humane killing of them to make different foods or products.
And if it isn't humane it is barbarism, whether food or not.

Well said by the way.

[Pres Zount]

Nazis considered themselves the intelligent majority.
so did stalin.

so did white people in the 1700's.

who decides who the intelligent majority are?
does "might make right"?

yes.

[kaiser soze]

but this video cannot PROVE that any of it is "wrong"...
no matter how much you or I think it is.

actually in the part where they are slaughtering cows in a "kosher" fashion, the narrator points out some illegal procedures that were already shown

so yes it is wrong by the law