words are funny, especially in english.

[monkey]

why is awful the opposite of full of awe? or even the opposite of awesome, which by all logical means should be only some awe.

this happens with other words. what are they?

[jackrock]

bellybutton is a funny word

[The Notorious LOL]

/thread

[Ace42X]

why is awful the opposite of full of awe?

It isn't. Awe is simply amazement. Something can be amazingly good, or amazingly bad. It depends on context. The use of "awesome" (IE inspiring reverence) is not the opposite of something being "awful" (IE inspiring dread).

which by all logical means should be only some awe.

Not really: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/some

The suffix -some is different to the adjective.

Like it or not, most languages are full of homophones, homonyms, synonyms, not to mention backronyms, apronyms, retronyms and other back-formations, junctural metanalysis, and a heap of the other neologisms that are necessary for a living language to evolve and develop.

[vickista]

i hate the english language. its too mixed in of other languages and that shitz me. all the silent things and stupid rules, too complex they shld just keep it simple.

[Ace42X]

i hate the english language. its too mixed in of other languages and that shitz me. all the silent things and stupid rules, too complex they shld just keep it simple.

I am amused that you equate simple with having fewer rules. If you have ever read the "simple" language used by people who are not overly concerned with spelling, punctuation or grammar, you soon realise that the "simple language" rapidly becomes an exercise in deduction and educated guesswork, rather than simply "reading."

In my experience, people who want language to be "simpler" want other people to put more effort into reading and interpreting their ramblings than they are willing to put into being coherent.

Language is complicated because it needs to describe complicated concepts and their inter-relationships clearly and with precision. Any effort to "simplify" the language can only end up rendering the tools you use to perceive and interact with the world dull and useless. And it is also an exercise in futility.

Take simplifying the spelling of "aluminium" in American English (IE shit English) by dropping the "i" and thus making it an exception to all the other elements in the periodic table (such as osmium, titanium, etc etc).

Simplifying spelling, as an example, usually results in a loss of meaning and context. Centre shouldn't have the "er" ending because it would imply it is a noun constructed from a verb. If there is a runner who runs, there should be a center who cents, for example.

That effort to "simplify" the language would only result in the word "center" (someone who cents!) appearing in one of those lame-ass e-mails that ignorantly point out "contradicitions" in language.

[Waus]

My dad went to some engineering meetings in Germany some years back. He said that the hardest part of English (UK or US) that we underestimate is the amount of phrases we use that don't make any sense when interpreted literally.

I can't remember what examples he used when relating this to me...but you know what I mean.

[Bob]

American English (IE shit English)

we're sorry

Simplifying spelling, as an example, usually results in a loss of meaning and context. Centre shouldn't have the "er" ending because it would imply it is a noun constructed from a verb. If there is a runner who runs, there should be a center who cents, for example.

That effort to "simplify" the language would only result in the word "center" (someone who cents!) appearing in one of those lame-ass e-mails that ignorantly point out "contradicitions" in language.

what about fingers, then? is it supposed to be spelled "fingre" originally? or is "fing" a word that's just dropped out of our vocabulary? not trying to be snarky (now), but i'm sure there must be other words like that, that aren't the result of trying to simplify anything.

[TurdBerglar]

bob has never fingered anything!

[Bob]

bob has never fingered anything!

"finged"

[TurdBerglar]

hahahaha

[Ace42X]

what about fingers, then? is it supposed to be spelled "fingre" originally?

Rather off the point I was trying to make, but before the 1700s, pretty much all of today's "er" endings would've been "re".

The "-er" suffix designating a comparison (fastER, etc) comes from the middle english -re suffix.

"-er" as in "one (or something) that performs an action" (swimmER runnER, jumpER) comes from the "-ere" / "ary" / "eor" french-germanic old-english origin. The frequency of double-consonants before the suffix may be hang-overs from the days when it was important that there was no coincidental "e" before the "re" ending.

or is "fing" a word that's just dropped out of our vocabulary?

"finf / funf" in old high german was "five" (referring to the number of digits on your hand.) thus one of your fingers was 'one of the five-ers' IE one of a bunch of five.

The F/G transliteration, while seeming incongruous to us now, probably came about during the transition to middle-english, due to Norman scribes being unfamiliar with the anglo-saxon text, particularly the letters "ash" "thorn" and "yogh". Thorn (a "th" sound) often took a form a bit like a lower-case g in anglo-saxon, and on parchment, particularly in northern script, would look very similar to a lower-case y. Remember, they had no printing then, nor proper paper, nor proper pens, nor the communication mechanisms to standardise caligraphy.

This confuse between non-romance letters led to the now famous "ye olde coffee shop." The "y" is actually a thorn, making a "th" sound.

"ye" would be prouncouned "the".

but i'm sure there must be other words like that, that aren't the result of trying to simplify anything.

Each word has its own story behind it. Change the spelling, you lose the story, you lose part of its meaning.

Incidently, languages are predominantly spoken; the spelling has to represent changes in pronunciation. In the word "centre" the second syllable isn't heavily stressed. It is closer to "cent-uh" than "centerrr" with an emphasis on the r. Depending on your accent (which, as an american, is in no small way dependant on the written language of your nation) how you pronounce the "er" in "center" probably sounds differently to how it sounds in "runner" or "finger".

Without getting into rather annoying and fiddly discussion about stresses, iambs, etc, etc - if you pronounce the second syllable of "center" in the same way as you prounce it in runner, you'd prolly sound like a Minnesotan straight out of the film "Fargo".

[Bob]

interesting, i didn't know any of that (surprise!). but


Each word has its own story behind it. Change the spelling, you lose the story, you lose part of its meaning.

couldn't you consider the changing of the word a sort of evolution of it? couldn't it just be part of its story?

[Lyman Zerga]

Ace is the "Cliff Claven" of the board. I am the "Woody". Mickill is "Kramer". Mardsdaddy is "Coach". Q is "Norm". KLL is "Rebecca". Nuzz is "Lilith". Zorra is "Carla". Dandy is "Diane". And Bob is "Sam".

i wanna be that old random fart who throws in stupid comments

[Ace42X]

couldn't you consider the changing of the word a sort of evolution of it? couldn't it just be part of its story?

Reminds me a bit of a line in Terry Pratchett's The Fifth Elephant where the Dwarves talk about their family heirloom war-hammers. And one says "So this hammer has been passed down from father to son for generations. And yes, when the shaft has been worn out, it has been replaced, as has the head. But it is still the same hammer."

Well, yes, you could argue the hammer is "the same", the concept has been passed down, it is still being used by people in the same sort of way, but there is still a divorcing from the ORIGINAL hammer, none of the "hammer" is original, other than the idea behind it, as each of the parts has been changed. If you wanted to imagine your great-grand-father dwarf using the hammer, you'd have no frame of reference, as your version of the hammer is totally disconnected from that. None of its components are the same.

So yes, it is necessary that a language must evolve and develop and change, and it is pointless to do a Canute and try to hold back the tide of change - BUT, that doesn't mean that just because some eejits think "the language is too complicated" we should start butchering in a totally ineffectual way to make it "simpler". Because really, you are not making it "simpler", just making it "arbitrarily different."

[zorra_chiflada]

i'm not carla. well, maybe i could be. jesus.

[Lyman Zerga]

That's "Coach". But what the hell, you can be "Coach" because mars is only funny sometimes.

no, thats not who i mean
he just someone sitting in the background (bar)
doesnt play in too many episodes
he is not even funny
but i so want to be him!

[Bob]

So yes, it is necessary that a language must evolve and develop and change, and it is pointless to do a Canute and try to hold back the tide of change - BUT, that doesn't mean that just because some eejits think "the language is too complicated" we should start butchering in a totally ineffectual way to make it "simpler". Because really, you are not making it "simpler", just making it "arbitrarily different."

yeah, i'm certainly not disagreeing with that. i think i misunderstood you, i thought you were arguing for some sort of total linguistic conservatism or something. although it would have been nice to be able to read chaucer in high school without needing to have it translated.

i don't read long posts very carefully these days, my mistake

[monkey]

haha i got schooled on a fuckin stoned thread. hahahahahaha

[adam_f]

I don't think I would like you sober after I saw you stoned.

[monkey]

i dont think i would like you when im sober. hahaha. just kidding :(

[Ace42X]

although it would have been nice to be able to read chaucer in high school without needing to have it translated.

Give it a try, it isn't that hard at all, and you will surprise yourself.

http://www.towson.edu/~duncan/chaucer/

Read the general prologue there. You can hover the cursor on any words you have problems with for a translation. Try not to though - using deduction and guesswork, you should be able to read a lot of it unassisted.

[cosmo105]

a friend and i were having a discussion on english a while back. i was taking the usual stance that it's a difficult language to learn because it's so convoluted and has so many exceptions and its grammar is basically backwards to most other languages...and he, a writer, countered with something that i had never thought of before: that's the beauty of it. in german, for example, there's one way to say something, and that's it. you say it like that every time. hello is always hello. in english, though, it could be hi, hey, et cetera...and that's why there's such freedom of expression in english, and that's why writing in english is so challenging. you can say the same thing in so many different, eloquent ways. he had a real point there.

[cosmo105]

maybe. it's the same with a lot of other languages too though.

[Bob]

a friend and i were having a discussion on english a while back. i was taking the usual stance that it's a difficult language to learn because it's so convoluted and has so many exceptions and its grammar is basically backwards to most other languages...and he, a writer, countered with something that i had never thought of before: that's the beauty of it. in german, for example, there's one way to say something, and that's it. you say it like that every time. hello is always hello. in english, though, it could be hi, hey, et cetera...and that's why there's such freedom of expression in english, and that's why writing in english is so challenging. you can say the same thing in so many different, eloquent ways. he had a real point there.

that's what i've always thought too, but i never really mention it out loud because i really don't know any other languages. as far as i know, other languages are like that too. but yeah, english is nice, you have alot of room for creativity.

[kate]

i like how if you look at a word in print a bunch it doesn't look like a real word. with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with. with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with. with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with. with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with.with. with.with.with.with.
can you believe that's a real word? did i spell it right?

[monkey]

i heard russian is the most beautiful written language ever. russian poetry is said to be breathtaking. but it loses something in the translation. i find languages to be generally easy to learn, but thats cause ive had to learn many when i was young.

[Ace42X]

and he, a writer, countered with something that i had never thought of before: that's the beauty of it. in german, for example, there's one way to say something,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1780906,00.html

[Sarky Devotchka]

my friend dan is german and he's very funny. well, he's not from germany. he lived there for a bit though. when he came back from germany the last time, he gave cort and I a newspaper clipping with a picture of a tongue licking a 5-scoop ice cream cone and said, "here, I brought you a party boner".

ace, you remind me of a friend of mine, I've decided. he likes to get into intense conversations/arguments with people about all kinds of things. some people can't handle it, but I must say I rather enjoy it sometimes. once at a party, he and I were engrossed in conversation in the living room while everyone was in the backyard and people came in and said, "what are you guys talking about?" and we said, "camping in sub-zero temperatures", and they said, "uhh, great, see ya!"

anyway, related to the topic. I like to misprounounce things for fun, i.e. instead of going to ginger's ale house, we're going to gin-ger's al-eh hoose. wait, you have to say the ginger with hard g's. bleh, that's a crap example. or I say, "it smells like 2nd grade in here". this is not related to the topic after all. :/

[Bob]

i heard russian is the most beautiful written language ever. russian poetry is said to be breathtaking. but it loses something in the translation. i find languages to be generally easy to learn, but thats cause ive had to learn many when i was young.

when translated into english you lose articles on words. you speak and you sound like bear

i don't know, i don't speak russian

[zorra_chiflada]

"you like blue jean? you cool guy? you like rolling stone? i give them to you 500 rubels"