Israel and Palestine

[The Notorious LOL]

Im suprised people arent discussing this like flies on shit. To my knowledge its the first military strike since the Six Day War. Hopefully Iran doesnt step in and really complicate the hell out of things.


Thoughts?

[The Notorious LOL]

yeah that would be totally rad because most likely so would the US and UK at that point and just blow a bunch of shit up in a quick hurry and kill a few hundred thousand people. Big ups to war!!!

[drizl]

i think its fucked up(n)

one israeli soldier kidnapped by a group of extremists who want some of their own women and children released from jail, and they blow up the electrical grid, bomb a bunch of bridges so they cant leave, and fly by every half hour sonic booming all of the innocent people so that they cant sleep. that is such a fucked up situation over there.
it really pisses me off when jewish folk rattle on about palestinians when they (and the us money that supports the israelies and their form of terrorism) are the aggressors more often than not. such an ugly situation over there.

[Tone Capone]

Yeah let's all feel bad for the terrorists.

If you ask me, they knew what would happen. THey knew that by kidnapping this soldier that the Israelis would come at them hard (when HAVEN'T they?) and they knew they would be stirring up emotions and they knew they could be kicking off even more death... They aren't as stupid as they look.

[Funkaloyd]

Pretty much every act of violence by either the Palestinians or Israelis is retaliation for a previous act by the other side.

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[roosta]

i think the Palestinians will just shade it. maybe 2-1 after extra time.

[enree erzweglle]

Pretty much every act of violence by either the Palestinians or Israelis is retaliation for a previous act by the other side.Exactly. Which is why we have to adopt the principles of non-violence and follow the models used by MLK and Gandhi.

[Qdrop]

If you ask me, they knew what would happen.

Palestine also should have foreseen much of this when they elected a TERRORIST group to lead the country in thier elections.

jesus, electing Hamas? golly gee, i wonder where that will lead.

that election showed the world ONE thing...Palestine does NOT want peace.

[kaiser soze]

And Israel didn't want peace with Sharon

that area is eternally damned

[Qdrop]

total lost cause.

though i'm compelled to bring up a point that Larry Miller brought up on Bill Maher's show some time ago....

do you really think, that if the tables were turned, and a lone muslim state was surrounded by jewish nations, that the level of conflict would be same?

i don't.

[Tone Capone]

Palestine also should have foreseen much of this when they elected a TERRORIST group to lead the country in thier elections.



agreed

[Funkaloyd]

do you really think, that if the tables were turned, and a lone muslim state was surrounded by jewish nations, that the level of conflict would be same?

i don't.
If there were Jews living in poverty and under martial law in that Muslim nation's borders, and if that nation was on land considered sacred, then yeah, I think the situation would be pretty messed up.

[Qdrop]

If there were Jews living in poverty and under martial law in that Muslim nation's borders, and if that nation was on land considered sacred, then yeah, I think the situation would be pretty messed up.

if if if

i don't buy it.
the jewish culture had little history of violence within the past...shit, 2000 years before this conflict.
compare that to the muslim history.
the muslim faith/culture breeds and encourages violence.

[Pres Zount]

"if if if"

???

You were the one who started the hypotheticals, q.

Even if the muslim culture is a violent one, are you saying that if the tables were turned the jews would just roll over and take it? I don't think there is many cases in history where a persecuted group has stayed silent for any long period of time without something boiling over.

[Qdrop]

"if if if"

???

You were the one who started the hypotheticals, q.

just a comparison of cultures....

the "sacred land" issue is redundent, as they both believe it to be thier sacred land.

sure, poverty can insite desparation....if you flip those circumstances as well..perhaps it would be similar.

but why is it that the jewish country is so economically superiour to the muslim countries?
can you really pin that all on US aid?

Even if the muslim culture is a violent one, are you saying that if the tables were turned the jews would just roll over and take it? no, i'm saying they wouldn't.

I don't think there is many cases in history where a persecuted group has stayed silent for any long period of time without something boiling over.

eh, this is such a messy and complicated subject, i admit.
that's why no solution is in site.

i just don't think that jewish countries would be acting in this manner if they surrounded one solo muslim state.

i think, first, due to cultural priorities..the jewish countries wouldnt' be so destitute and poor (the poor are ripe for the picking when looking to amass an army for a cause, any cause)..as destitution breeds desparation.

and i don't think that the jewish culture promote violence the way the muslim culture does.

[Funkaloyd]

the muslim faith/culture breeds and encourages violence.
I agree. I think the lack of importance placed on proselytizing in Judaism means that a) Jews have less motivation to conquer the world than Muslims or Christians, and b) Judaism has few followers, and has always been a minority religion, picked on by others.

However, Jews have proved that they're just as capable of terrorism as anyone else, under the right circumstances. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence.

[Qdrop]

However, Jews have proved that they're just as capable of terrorism as anyone else, under the right circumstances. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence.

oh definately...

as pres said, "I don't think there is many cases in history where a persecuted group has stayed silent for any long period of time without something boiling over."

i suppose many would argue that the jews are not the ones being persecuted, but that's why this conflict will never end till one side is wiped away.

[STANKY808]

Or both sides say "enough".

And I wonder why it is acceptable that the jews used violence as a means to an end (statehood) but palestinians are vilified for it?

[Pres Zount]

It's strange how they are considered "sides". Most arabs and israelis are on the same side, they just want to survive or raise a family.

[BangkokB]

Disneys CEO Eisner interviewed Pat Robertson of all people this past Sunday on CNBC. And look up Pat's statements yourself~His BS has reinforced my antiIsrael stance.

I'm not a fan of either. But Palestine seems clearly in the wrong on this one.

Iran could be the wildcard out of the deck....If you're a gambler it seems like a good time to buy calls on HU or HO bc they both could go through the roof

[drizl]

Palestine also should have foreseen much of this when they elected a TERRORIST group to lead the country in thier elections.

jesus, electing Hamas? golly gee, i wonder where that will lead.

that election showed the world ONE thing...Palestine does NOT want peace.

so by your logic, if palestine wants peace, they have to comply with the jews. fuck that. they have to work together. but they cant. hamas can only do so much to fight for their freedom. israel can do much more with an entire military paid for by the us. its totally fucked, there is too much that has happened, to much that will happen, and israel terrorizing a whole population for what a few assholes did to kidnap a soldier. its all retaliation, back and forth as was said earlier.

[drizl]

I agree. I think the lack of importance placed on proselytizing in Judaism means that a) Jews have less motivation to conquer the world than Muslims or Christians, and b) Judaism has few followers, and has always been a minority religion, picked on by others.

However, Jews have proved that they're just as capable of terrorism as anyone else, under the right circumstances. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence.

jews as a minority always picked on by others. bullshit. over 25 million soviets died in the world war, what was it, 6 million jews. there is so much propaganda put out by western nations for the jews its ridiculous. anti semite this and anti semite that. if you make fun of a jewish person on tv, radio or any other media outlet, you are labeled an anti semite and shunned! why do we support israel? because they are a prowestern wanna-be nation that is in the heart of the muslim world, in the heart of the middle east. they are literally an investment, and many of our policy makers are very much on their side. its bullshit. israel wouldnt exist if it wasnt for us support of their terrorist actions on the palestinians and the british moves which gave them land in the 60s.

[Qdrop]

so by your logic, if palestine wants peace, they have to comply with the jews. fuck that. they have to work together. but they cant. hamas can only do so much to fight for their freedom. israel can do much more with an entire military paid for by the us. its totally fucked, there is too much that has happened, to much that will happen, and israel terrorizing a whole population for what a few assholes did to kidnap a soldier. its all retaliation, back and forth as was said earlier.

yeah, it's the jews fault.
they started it.

[Qdrop]

jews as a minority always picked on by others. bullshit. over 25 million soviets died in the world war, what was it, 6 million jews. there is so much propaganda put out by western nations for the jews its ridiculous. anti semite this and anti semite that. if you make fun of a jewish person on tv, radio or any other media outlet, you are labeled an anti semite and shunned! why do we support israel? because they are a prowestern wanna-be nation that is in the heart of the muslim world, in the heart of the middle east. they are literally an investment, and many of our policy makers are very much on their side. its bullshit. israel wouldnt exist if it wasnt for us support of their terrorist actions on the palestinians and the british moves which gave them land in the 60s.
yeah, 6 million people....pshh....a drop in the bucket.
what's their problem?
those winers.



basically, we are WAY past the point of who started what and who does what to who when....
both parties are equally responsible.

if you want to tow the liberal line and just align yourself with palestine, then you're part of the problem.

[drizl]

im not trying to tow any line, im just saying that israel always has the upper hand in the west. our media favors them, our government favors them and we are told to feel sorry for them so that we support their existence.

i feel more sorry for the palestinians, who, because they are a muslim country whose beliefs do not parellel the ideals of our western cultures, face the wrath of a brutal occupation. we do not see, in america, the homes torn down, the families left homeless, the racism towards palestinians (equal if not worse than what the jews receive)...remember that reporter, (rachel corrie maybe??) who was mowed down by the israeli tank for protesting the destruction of palestinian homes? palestine has done a lot of bad things to israel, but i think israel is far worse on palestine.

and this latest shit, the israelis trying to start a fool out war over one hostage situation is way out of proportion.

[Funkaloyd]

jews as a minority always picked on by others. bullshit. over 25 million soviets died in the world war, what was it, 6 million jews. there is so much propaganda put out by western nations for the jews its ridiculous.
Hah, yeah, Jews have been on top of the fucking world for the last millennium. Tool.

[D_Raay]

yeah, 6 million people....pshh....a drop in the bucket.
what's their problem?
those winers.



basically, we are WAY past the point of who started what and who does what to who when....
both parties are equally responsible.

if you want to tow the liberal line and just align yourself with palestine, then you're part of the problem.
Always your fallback when you feel threatened by someone actually seeing through your bullshit. You were the one who chose a side not him.

[Qdrop]

Always your fallback when you feel threatened by someone actually seeing through your bullshit. i'm the one seeing through the bullshit. what? he just coincidentally has beliefs that, one after the other, align with typical liberal stances? he's towing the line....you haven't had enough expercience with this guy to fuckin know.

You were the one who chose a side not him. here, let me clarify, D.
while i do believe that the muslim culture is far more violent and aggressive (history has my back on that), and that thier religion itself is far more aggressive (history has my back on that).....and electing Hamas is a sign that the palestinians don't want peace....

i believe that they are, again, past the point of who started what or who's worse.

"basically, we are WAY past the point of who started what and who does what to who when....
both parties are equally responsible."

Sharon and Israel haven't exactly been slouches in the aggression area either.
both sides are just in a full-on blood-lust...

[drizl]

i hate it when people say that muslims are more violent, that they are the aggresors and the ones who are the cause of the problem. the us is the most violent nation in the world! look at how many wars we have been in in the last 150 years! korea, vietnam, ww1 ww2, serbia, iraq 1 and 2, and our troops all over the world "securing peace". we are the root of many many many of the worlds problems. i would argue that we are the aggressors, and that we are just as much terrorists, but too a much higher degree.


is a terrorist someone who kills innocent people? it would be interesting to know, but of course we never will because we dont keep track, how many innocent civilians have died because of the us abroad.

i think we label them terrorists because they use an unconventional way of fighting back, the only way they can due to the situation- roadside bombs, homemade bombs, small ammunitions, hostage situations etc... they cant even see who they are fighting half the time- before they know it 500lb bombs are dropping out of the sky.

consider the desperation by a culture (muslim) which has been theatened time and again by western, high-tech societies who wish to exploit them, globalize them, push them around, or belittle them.

muslims are not a violent culture. no more violent than jews or christians.

to be honest, i dont even know much about liberals, nor do i care. right wing left wing uptown downtown whatever. fuck politics, fuck government. fuck heirarchies and fuck competition and capitolism. fuck war hatred and violence. truth, cooperation, peace and evolution sound good to me.



and funk- im not saying jews are on top of the world. im not sure where you got that. i am just saying that the us and other western nations have a vested interest in israel. and so have aligned themselves with that side of the coin, then put out massive media campaigns supporting their cause and trying to win over our hearts so that we also support their moves to support israel. sadly to say, there have been many other incidents in history, genocide indeed, that have occurred which we here nothing about, or care nothing about because its not slammed in our face everyday. i am sorry for the jews having had to go through with that...and the soviets for having lost more than 4 times that number in the same war, and for what the sudanese are going through, and people all over the world who have to deal with war, genocide, hatred and destruction. it all sucks.

[Schmeltz]

I used to hold out hope that there could be a peaceful reconciliation between the two sides, but now I see that their oppressive, patriarchal religious structures absolutely prevent them from finding a productive solution to their problems. These people are incapable of viewing reality through a rational lens; their interpretation of every event is informed by archaic mythology and virulent, possessive nationalism. People like this (the same people who dominate the governments of the Middle East and the United States) are the last remaining obstacles to the establishment of a peaceful, stable, and cooperative global society based on secular tolerance and reason. Let them kill each other. Let them bomb each other back to the Stone Age. Good riddance - we will be missing nothing.

[Ace42X]

but now I see that their oppressive, patriarchal religious structures absolutely prevent them from finding a productive solution to their problems.

I'd say the inverse is true. Oppressive patriachal institutions are the product of hardship, etc. Take Nazism as an example - Hitler's rise to power was the product of the economic penury of post-war Germany.

It is not the religious structures preventing them from finding a "productive solution", but their unwillingness to accept productive solutions which bolster oppressive patriarchal religious structures.

[D_Raay]

while i do believe that the muslim culture is far more violent and aggressive (history has my back on that), and that thier religion itself is far more aggressive (history has my back on that).....and electing Hamas is a sign that the palestinians don't want peace....

Electing Hamas is a sign that the Palestinians want someone who can protect them, not because they are all bloodthirsty. The generalizations go too far, just as I am sure there are Israelis who don't condone what their Government does.

As schmeltz pointed out this is between world players who are better off being allowed to kill each other. Unfortunately, it is the people who are required to suffer a thousand times over before/if retribution is ever realized.

[Qdrop]

Electing Hamas is a sign that the Palestinians want someone who can protect them, not because they are all bloodthirsty. terrorists don't protect, they attack.
you don't elect a terrorist organization for protection, you elect them because you want aggresion.

that's like saying you bought a high power sniper rifle with laser scope for "protection".
ummm...no. those are used for one thing and one thing only.

The generalizations go too far, just as I am sure there are Israelis who don't condone what their Government does. i'm sure there are in both sides....but elections on both sides by the MAJORITY of the populace show that each side wants strong militant precence....and in at least the palestinian side, aggression.

As schmeltz pointed out this is between world players who are better off being allowed to kill each other. Unfortunately, it is the people who are required to suffer a thousand times over before/if retribution is ever realized. i agree there.

i suppose the reason i do come down harder on the muslim side (besides my greater distaste and distrust of there religion)...is that, all things being equal (in the beginning), it was a Jewish state set up by the UN. The area was barely habitated at that point, with small grouping of muslim locals at most.
yes they were displaced, but that was a global decision. and most agree that the majority of muslim immigratin happened during and AFTER the british mandate and subsequent declaration of Israel.
funny how the land didn't seem quite so important to muslims until the jews started showing up.
once established, Israel was not an imperialist country by any means, nor aggressive. (debatable, but that's the way i see it).
it was not they who drew first blood. the palestinians declared war on Israel the day after it was established.
it began as one globally-established country defending itself from muslim aggressors....and has, only now, progressed to a blurred state of violence...with both sides being the aggressors.

it's certainly not that clean cut, but that's the sense i make of the muddy history of that territory.

[Pres Zount]

For you, Q, I guess it all really boils down to who you think are the "aggressors"

Obviously Hamas are terrorsits that can be likened to high powered sniper rifles - but the Israeli military are there for defense!!

I prefer to see it as who deserves to be there - because both 'sides' are aggresive and bloodthirsty - and I just don't see how it can be seen as legit that jews need a country to save them from anti-jewish behaviour.

[Qdrop]

For you, Q, I guess it all really boils down to who you think are the "aggressors"

Obviously Hamas are terrorsits that can be likened to high powered sniper rifles - but the Israeli military are there for defense!! yeah, that is debatable.
Israel has defeninately made strong use of thier US aided military might...it does seem to go more on the offensive than defensive every day.
i suppose thier argument would be "a good defense is a good offense, but virtually all of the military attacks i see Israel performing are in retaliation to attacks by Hamas.
of courese, Hamas would say the same thing.
it's a blurry mess at this point.

I prefer to see it as who deserves to be there - because both 'sides' are aggresive and bloodthirsty - and I just don't see how it can be seen as legit that jews need a country to save them from anti-jewish behaviour. than nor do the palestinians.
Muslims have dozens of countries millions strong.
the jews have one.

now personally, i think the idea of needing a segragated country just for an ethnic/religios group of people is very counter-productive to a global society as a whole.

[Pres Zount]

than nor do the palestinians.
Muslims have dozens of countries millions strong.
the jews have one.

now personally, i think the idea of needing a segragated country just for an ethnic/religios group of people is very counter-productive to a global society as a whole.

Palestinian is not a religion. This was only turned into a religious battle because of the zionist ideal that Jews and Gentiles cannot live side by side in the same country.

Which is absurd, and I bet you agree.

[Schmeltz]

yes they were displaced, but that was a global decision.


Who cares? If the UN decided to give your home state away to the Native Americans and you were displaced as a result, would you think it was alright because the UN said so?


all things being equal (in the beginning), it was a Jewish state set up by the UN.


All things weren't equal in the beginning; radical Zionist groups had been waging a campaign of terrorism - including market bombings, abductions, and summary executions, the same tactics employed by Palestinian extremists today - against locals and British rulers alike for years before the State of Israel was created. The Zionists, to me, seem to be the ones who drew first blood here.


Oppressive patriachal institutions are the product of hardship, etc.


I'm not so sure I agree with that. Hitler's rise to power may have been aided by the drastic economic situation prevalent in Germany at the time, but it was equally aided by his rhetoric against Jews and Slavs - which drew on very ancient strains in German culture, just as the oppressive religious ideologies that dominate the Middle East today draw on even more ancient tribal philosophies (while conveniently ignoring everything of real value achieved by their cultural traditions). It's also noteworthy that much of the rest of the Western world went through the same economic hardship without resorting to dictatorship and armed aggression a la Nazism.

[Qdrop]

Who cares? If the UN decided to give your home state away to the Native Americans and you were displaced as a result, would you think it was alright because the UN said so? but that wasn't a "home state" for muslims.
it was bascially "squatters" land for roaming muslim camps.
that is, before the jews started showing up during the british mandate and the UN establishment of Israel....
then the muslims came by the droves....



All things weren't equal in the beginning; radical Zionist groups had been waging a campaign of terrorism - including market bombings, abductions, and summary executions, the same tactics employed by Palestinian extremists today as far as i know, that is relatively NEW occurance in this conflict:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/view/

[Qdrop]

Palestinian is not a religion. This was only turned into a religious battle because of the zionist ideal that Jews and Gentiles cannot live side by side in the same country. and the muslim fundamentalists feel the same.
they both suck.

Which is absurd, and I bet you agree.
of course.

Israel vs. Palestine is the posterchild of why religion is so fucking evil.
it's a virus of the mind, and culture.

[Schmeltz]

[quote]
as far as i know, that is relatively NEW occurance in this conflict
[/

[Schmeltz]

but that wasn't a "home state" for muslims.
it was bascially "squatters" land for roaming muslim camps.


Which gives the UN ultimate authority over it... in what way? The issue was put to a vote before the UN General Assembly, so the Australians and Soviets had more of a say as to the fate of this land than its own residents did (and in spite of what you seem to think, the locals weren't just nomadic Bedouin). I can understand your point insofar as the UN's decision granted Israel international legal status, but surely you must understand how little that would mean to somebody uprooted from his own home by religious extremists from Europe.


as far as i know, that is relatively NEW occurance in this conflict


Read up on the history of the region, especially the Irgun and the Stern Gang.

[Ace42X]

It's also noteworthy that much of the rest of the Western world went through the same economic hardship without resorting to dictatorship and armed aggression a la Nazism.

In Italy they had Mussolini, in Japan Hirohito, in Russia Stalin, in the UK Oswald Mosley. Everywhere the great depression hit, there was extremism and institutionalised prejudice.

[Pres Zount]

The depression didn't really 'hit' russia, but your point still stands. :(

[Funkaloyd]

In the US they had FDR, for four terms.

[D_Raay]

The labeling of Hamas and the PLO as 'terrorists' has bothered me since I became educated in the history of the middle east. The profound ignorance of the Irgun and the history of the British Mandate of Palestine is frustrating when discussing it with people in general.

The Irgun was classified by the British authorities and several other Jewish organizations as a terrorist organization, while others considered it to be an independence movement.

Formed in 1931, things got ugly when the White Paper was discovered.

The White Paper of 1939, also known as the MacDonald White Paper after Malcolm MacDonald, the British Colonial Secretary who presided over it, was a policy paper issued by the British government under Neville Chamberlain in which the idea of partitioning the British Mandate of Palestine was abandoned in favour of an independent Palestine governed jointly by Arabs and Jews.

Some of the members of Irgun declared a truce with England in order to help them fight the Nazis, but others continued performing terrorist acts against the British. By February of 1944, Menachim Begin (eventually a Prime Minister of Israel) revoked the truce:

In February of 1944, under the new leadership of Menachem Begin, Irgun resumed hostilities against the British authorities. The purpose of these attacks was to increase the cost of British mandatory rule and influence British public opinion so as to encourage British withdrawal. It included attacks on prominent symbols of the British administration, including the British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel and the British prison in Acre. Although these attacks were largely successful, several Irgun operatives were captured, convicted, and hanged. Refusing to accept the jurisdiction of the British courts, those accused refused to defend themselves. The Irgun leadership ultimately responded to these executions by hanging two British sergeants, which effectively brought the executions to an end.

So two future Prime Ministers of Israel authorized the kidnapping and execution of British soldiers. That fact seems relevant to today.

[Qdrop]

the frustrating thing about this discussion in general....is the fact that there really is no straight objective history.
alot of the earlier territorial decisions were rought with politics and backstabbing by the british (it seems)...
many conflicts and "agreements" are not well documented and basically become exercises in point of views...

i've been reading/watching this:
http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2001/promises/timeline.html

really shows you what a cluster fuck it is....

once established, Israel was not an imperialist country by any means, nor aggressive. (debatable, but that's the way i see it).
actually, this isn't entirely true.... the 6 day war was basically an imperialist movement....
though later rectified by the UN...

[Qdrop]

Read up on the history of the region, especially the Irgun

i guess i'm refering more to direct Muslim vs. Jew violence.

and trust me, i'm not pretending that jews of this region have been angelic peacemakers since the beginning.

they are as consumed with religious sanctimony (sometimes to the state of military aggression) as the palestinians.

[Qdrop]

I can understand your point insofar as the UN's decision granted Israel international legal status, but surely you must understand how little that would mean to somebody uprooted from his own home by religious extremists from Europe.


but they were surrounded by muslim countries on all sides, they HAD places to go to, cultures to belong to, they had options...

the idea behind the establishment of jewish settlements, and then a state of Israel (politics aside)...was that Jews really had no land or country prior which allowed them to simply live in peace and free of persacution (history pretty much shows, well beyond just the holocaust)...
jews have pretty much been hated on for thousands of years, and unlike the muslims, had a pretty hard time of establishing thier culture somewhere without alientation or discrimination.

conversely, i never understood the rationale behind the muslims of palestine to demand yet another muslim territory or state....it just seems greedy.
lets be honest, pretty much from the get go...i really think the muslim movement in Palestine was less about muslims wanting to establish yet another muslim state or territory, but more about muslims just wanting the wipe the jews and their religion out of the area....
look at the immigration rates of muslims....they trailed behind the immigration of jews to the area, the muslim immigrations were in retaliation....and the subsequent immigration during the british mandate.
eerily similar to the insurgency of Iraq after the US came in 3 years ago.
it's xenophobia.

[Funkaloyd]

i've been reading/watching this:
http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2001/promises/timeline.html
Going by this forum, you'd think that PBS and Comedy Central were the only channels in the US.

[Qdrop]

Going by this forum, you'd think that PBS and Comedy Central were the only channels in the US.

for in-depth journalism and intelligent commentary.... you don't have many more choices, sadly.

[racer5.0stang]

A few years ago a man wrote about a peace treaty between the countries in the Middle East. He concluded that it would only last for 3.5 years.

[drizl]

it is frustrating...so much disinfo and pro-israel media that it is easy to understand how people can become so...disinformed!

[GreenEarthAl]

The Muslim cultures and the Judeo-Christian roman and post roman cultures became hyper-violent because of pressure from the Mongol hordes. It's all the fault of the great Khans. Stirred up a bunch of shit and then became Buddhists. So now you can barely get any satisfaction out of blaming their descendants. But it's clearly all their fault.

We'd all have peace by now were it not for those stinkin Buddhists.

[STANKY808]

i guess i'm refering more to direct Muslim vs. Jew violence.


And not these cases of Jew vs Muslim violence?

Signs of the Times for Tue, 04 Jul 2006


Pioneers of terrorism
Below are some rarely-mentioned facts about the relationship between Zionism and modern-day terrorism:

1. The first aircraft hijacking was carried out by Israel in 1954 against a Syrian civilian airliner.

2. Grenades in cafes: first used by Zionists against Palestinians in Jerusalem on 17 March 1937.

3. Delayed-action, electrically timed mines in crowded marketplaces: first used by Zionists against Palestinians in Haifa on 6 July 1938.

4. Blowing up a ship with its civilian passengers still on board: first carried out by Zionists in Haifa on 25 November 1940. The Zionists did not hesitate to blow up their own people in protest at the British policy of restricting Jewish immigration to Palestine. The ship, Patria, was carrying 1,700 Jewish immigrants.

5. Assassination of government officials: first carried out by the Zionists against the British in Cairo, when on 6 November 1944 Lord Moyne was assassinated by the Stern Gang. Yitzhak Shamir, a member of the Irgun and later leader of the Stern Gang and Israeli prime minister, was behind the plan.

6. Use of hostages as a means of putting pressure on a government: first used by the Zionists against the British in Tel Aviv on 18 June 1946.

7. Blowing up of government offices with their civilian employees and visitors: first carried out by the Zionists against the British in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946. The toll was 91 Britons killed and 46 wounded in the King David Hotel. Menachim Begin, who masterminded and carried out the attack and later became Israeli prime minister, admitted that the massacre was coordinated with and carried out under the instruction of the Haganah Zionist gang.

8. Booby-trapped suitcases: first used by the Zionists against the British Embassy in Rome on 13 October 1946.

9. Booby-trapped cars in civilian areas: first used by the Zionists against the British in Sarafand (east of Jaffa) on 5 December 1946.

10. Beating of hostages: first used by the Zionists against the British in Tel Aviv, Netanya and Rishon on 29 December 1946.

11. Letter bombs sent to politicians: first used by the Zionists against Britain when 20 letter bombs were sent from Italy to London between 4 and 6 June 1947.

12. Murder of hostages as a reprisal for government actions: first used by the Zionists against the British in the Netanya area on 29 July 1947.

13. Postal parcel bombs: first used by the Zionists against the British in London on 3 September 1947.

14. The massacre of Qibya, northwest of Jerusalem, was carried out by Unit 101, under the command of Ariel Sharon on Wednesday 14 October 1953. The attack was the bloodiest and most brutal Zionist crimes since the infamous Deir Yassin massacre. Forty-two houses as well as a school and a mosque were dynamited over their inhabitants. Seventy-five women, men and children were killed.

[Qdrop]

hmm....without even taking sides, i'd bet a pretty big chunk of change that much of that has come from palestinian sources and are some rather hotly contested "facts"..

[drizl]

q would your sources be considered any less biased?

[STANKY808]

hmm....without even taking sides, i'd bet a pretty big chunk of change that much of that has come from palestinian sources and are some rather hotly contested "facts"..

And that's not "taking sides"?

Check whatever sources you want - the "fact" remains, and it's been raised other times in this thread, the zionists used terror in order to get their state. You seem to think that was fine, but the palestinians use of these same tactics are somehow an outgrowth of their "violent religion".

One thing not mentioned in that list and you should read up on as well is the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty - Body of Secrets by James Bamford has really good info on it and which he obtained through declassified NSA archives.

[Qdrop]

q would your sources be considered any less biased?

probably not.

i really don't think you can get any unbiased sources or accounts of this timeline.

i think all we have is bias.

[Schmeltz]

but they were surrounded by muslim countries on all sides


What does that matter? Would you be fine with the UN giving away your country to a group of foreigners because you always had the "option" of moving to Canada? I don't believe you're thinking this issue through. It is not alright to dispossess people of their homes, property, and possessions on the chance that neighbouring countries will take them in.

You may be right that Jewish people have endured centuries of oppression and discrimination, but that doesn't mean the extremist religious vision of a land consecrated to their exclusive use holds any water, particularly when other people had been living on that land for just as long. And seriously now - do you actually think that Palestinian Muslims wanted "another Muslim state" simply for the sake of being greedy? I think it much more likely that they just wanted to return to the homes that were violently stolen from them by a bunch of foreigners. Of course, now there are strong elements of xenophobia and radicalism in the movement - which only goes to show that Palestinians have learned a lot from their Zionist counterparts.


The Muslim cultures and the Judeo-Christian roman and post roman cultures became hyper-violent because of pressure from the Mongol hordes.


No way, man. The Crusades started two centuries before Genghis Khan was born.

[D_Raay]

A list of many of the representatives who voted against ending the Iraq war, paired with the amount of money they have accepted from pro-Israeli PACS, including AIPAC, the group at the heart of the Israeli spy scandal.


Aderholt 13,500 Alexander 7,500 Andrews 35,250 Bachus 12,500 Bean 1,000
Berkley 201,455 Bishop (NY) 2,000 Bishop (UT) 2,500 Blunt 30,850 Boehlert 6,500
Bonilla 5,000 Brown, Corrine 8,600 Brown-Waite, Ginny 2,300 Burton (IN) 70,000
Cantor 74,980 Capito 4,250 Cardoza 16,000 Case 2,000 Chandler 13,500 Chocola 8,000 Cole (OK) 5,000 Costa 1,000 Cramer 44,800 Crowley 41,500 Culberson 1,500
Cunningham Davis (AL) 68,067 Davis (CA) 8,163 Davis (FL) 3,600 Davis (TN) 3,000
Davis, Tom 16,000 DeLauro 43,400 DeLay 81,050 Dent 5,000 Diaz-Balart, L. 10,000
Dicks 23,850 Edwards 18,350 Engel 137,918 Everett 15,000 Feeney 1,000 Ferguson 4,500 Fitzpatrick (PA) Forbes 2,000 Ford 10,000 Frelinghuysen 6,250 Graves 5,000 Harman 1,000 Herseth 12,900 Holden 9,500 Hoyer 92,275 Hunter 36,350 Israel 17,000 Jindal 1,500
Johnson (IL) 4,500 Kanjorski 16,600 Keller 5,000 Kennedy (MN) 67,120 Kirk 42,068 Knollenberg 23,750 Kolbe 43,000 Langevin 10,500 Lantos 107,250 Larsen (WA) 8,500
Levin 113,727 Lowey 109,738 Lucas 11,000 Mack 1,000 Marshall 8,000 Matheson 19,000 McCotter 10,000 Meek (FL) 7,000 Miller (FL) 2,500 Moore (KS) 26,176 Murphy 1,000 Pelosi 57,450 Putnam 4,500 Rehberg 1,500 Reichert Renzi Reyes Reynolds Rogers (AL) 8,000 Rogers (KY) 7,500 Rogers (MI) 2,250 Ros-Lehtinen 73,490 Ross 14,000
Ruppersberger 8,750 Sanchez, Loretta 36,700 Saxton 71,900 Schiff 23,417 Sessions 2,000 Shays 10,850 Sherwood 2,250 Simmons 14,500 Skelton 65,450 Smith (NJ) 51,750
Sweeney 2,000 Udall (CO) 11,250 Walsh 15,550 Wamp 2,000 Weller 26,400
Wilson (NM) 15,500

[Qdrop]

What does that matter? Would you be fine with the UN giving away your country palestine wasn't a country...it was roughly drawn out territory.

to a group of foreigners because you always had the "option" of moving to Canada? I don't believe you're thinking this issue through. It is not alright to dispossess people of their homes, property, and possessions on the chance that neighbouring countries will take them in. oh, i wouldn't be fine with it.
and if i'm truly looking at this from the outside in....it's all fuckin retarded.
i mean, i explained the reasoning behind giving Jews thier own country, and reasons behind displacing muslims, etc...
and i while i understand that, and partially agree with some aspects....
if i had my way, i'd would have told everyone that the deal is off. no one gets to segragate themselves based on religion or ethnicity, no one gets to kick others out of land for such reasons, etc.
remember, you're talking to a guy who despises religion as much or more than anyone on this board.

And seriously now - do you actually think that Palestinian Muslims wanted "another Muslim state" simply for the sake of being greedy? oh, i think it was very much religiously motivated....an "" of sorts to counter the jewish movement, yes.

I think it much more likely that they just wanted to return to the homes that were violently stolen from them by a bunch of foreigners. no no...i'm talking about the initial immigration..prior to the state of israel and prior to any muslim redestricting or partitioning....i'm talking pre-1947....
and then post 1947 immigration that does NOT include the return of the 400,000-700,000 muslims displaced by the palestinian/Israeli divide.

[FearandLoathing]

it is frustrating...so much disinfo and pro-israel media that it is easy to understand how people can become so...disinformed!
Yeah, the guy who belittles the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust is clearly well-informed...

[Ace42X]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/egypt/story/0,,1819115,00.html

[EN[i]GMA]

so by your logic, if palestine wants peace, they have to comply with the jews. fuck that. they have to work together. but they cant. hamas can only do so much to fight for their freedom. israel can do much more with an entire military paid for by the us. its totally fucked, there is too much that has happened, to much that will happen, and israel terrorizing a whole population for what a few assholes did to kidnap a soldier. its all retaliation, back and forth as was said earlier.

But the terrorist organization has ties to the government. In fact, it's part of the government.

How are they 'extremists' if they are in the government and run a TV station?

Lebanon is under a UN mandate to dismantle terror groups, namely Hezbollah.

I really, really, am trying to look at this impartially, and I don't see how you can specifally fault Israel for this incident.

Maybe for escalating it unceccesarily, I could grant you that, but still... Hezbollah agressed here, and it was obvious where it would lead.

I just want it to end.

[EN[i]GMA]

remember that reporter, (rachel corrie maybe??) who was mowed down by the israeli tank for protesting the destruction of palestinian homes?

It was a bulldozer, and apparently the driver didn't see her.

palestine has done a lot of bad things to israel, but i think israel is far worse on palestine.

Maybe, maybe not.

But that seems pretty biased to me.


and this latest shit, the israelis trying to start a fool out war over one hostage situation is way out of proportion.

Again, maybe.

But what would you have them do? Let Hezbollah capture their soldiers? They were put in impossible situation: piss of their own citizens, their own military, and open themselves up to more terror, or attack, and get criticized.

What should they have done?

[EN[i]GMA]

Electing Hamas is a sign that the Palestinians want someone who can protect them, not because they are all bloodthirsty.

I think it's pretty clear that they knew what they were getting with Hamas.

I mean, didn't Hamas just kidnap an Israeli soldier too? Is that some new form of 'defense'?

Electing Hamas was just a huge step back (or rather, no movement at all.)

[drizl]

well, they could have been a little more diplomatic about it. but of course the overreact and bomb beirut.
what pisses me off are the innocent people involved. if you are going to be a soldier and say, im going to be a soldier and i might have to kill someone, or be tortured or killed myself, then go ahead. what cause are you dying for anyways....wars throughout history....hundreds of millions have fought before you, and where are they now, what has become of what they fought for?
but the innocent people are just caught in between the fire, the bombs. the suffering of the innocent is heartbreaking.

[drizl]

personally, i think that the us is hoping that iran gets involved.

[Ace42X]

GMA']I mean, didn't Hamas just kidnap an Israeli soldier too? Is that some new form of 'defense'?

And Saddam had WMDs, and was going to shoot down a spy-plane with UN livery painted on it... And the Chinese kidnapped Japanese soldiers, prompting the invasion of mainland China...

Take it with a pinch of salt, justifications for wars are invariably flimsy and / or fictitious.

[Wadada]

I find it funny that Middle Eastern countries will use the "Palestinian cause" as justification for their terror attacks across the world but, in all these Middle Eastern (arab) countries, Palestinians are treated with contempt. They are the lowest class of any Arab society. They are treated like scum. Lower than dirt. It's simply funny. Arabs are telling everyone that the West is discriminating on Palestinians but, no one discriminates on them more than other Arab nations. It's just funny how many different things you can spin in a completely different direction.

[D_Raay]

GMA']I think it's pretty clear that they knew what they were getting with Hamas.

I mean, didn't Hamas just kidnap an Israeli soldier too? Is that some new form of 'defense'?

Electing Hamas was just a huge step back (or rather, no movement at all.)
You have me a little out of context E. Referencing the fact the Palestinians want whoever is NOT a US or Israeli puppet , thereby insuring their own protection against a very real threat, was partially my meaning.

It may be misguided, but what choice is there?

[Funkaloyd]

And Saddam had WMDs, and was going to shoot down a spy-plane with UN livery painted on it... And the Chinese kidnapped Japanese soldiers, prompting the invasion of mainland China...

Take it with a pinch of salt, justifications for wars are invariably flimsy and / or fictitious.
And Germany invaded Poland. Pff.

[Ace42X]

And Germany invaded Poland. Pff.

Indeed, and the Germans used a drummed up excuse to legitimise that, IE German listening base being attacked by Polish troops, proves my point.

[EN[i]GMA]

And Saddam had WMDs, and was going to shoot down a spy-plane with UN livery painted on it... And the Chinese kidnapped Japanese soldiers, prompting the invasion of mainland China...

Take it with a pinch of salt, justifications for wars are invariably flimsy and / or fictitious.

I am.

But there's a limit to scepticism when dealing with a group like Hezbollah, who do this sort of thing all the time.

I don't really think the kidnapping of two soldiers justifies the giant war this is likely to turn into.

[EN[i]GMA]

You have me a little out of context E. Referencing the fact the Palestinians want whoever is NOT a US or Israeli puppet , thereby insuring their own protection against a very real threat, was partially my meaning.

It may be misguided, but what choice is there?

I see your point.

Still, I would have to say electing a terrorist group is not going to get you anywhere.

Electing a puppet won't either, but maybe fewer people will die.

[Funkaloyd]

Indeed, and the Germans used a drummed up excuse to legitimise that, IE German listening base being attacked by Polish troops, proves my point.
Unless you have some historical insight you'd like to share, Israel isn't the sole aggressor here. In fact there isn't one.

[EN[i]GMA]

Unless you have some historical insight you'd like to share, Israel isn't the sole aggressor here. In fact there isn't one.

Well, 'historically', we can go back thousands of years, and still never solve the problem.

[Ace42X]

Unless you have some historical insight you'd like to share, Israel isn't the sole aggressor here. In fact there isn't one.

Did I say otherwise? I was merely pointing out that justifications are easy to manufacture when you need one to embark on an invasion.

[Wadada]

Did I say otherwise? I was merely pointing out that justifications are easy to manufacture when you need one to embark on an invasion.

oh fuck you.

you are such an over-the-top american basher.

you say this shit so much you've just caricatured yourself into irrelevancy.

americans cause cancer and poverty and AIDS and crack....it's all because of us.

jealous, spoiled fuckin brit living off his mum and dads income.

Sums it up.

[Ace42X]

Woo, an exciting game of "guess the Alias".

(S)He's a yank, it seems, and he/she agrees with Qdrop. My guess is: It's Qdrop trying to dodge being ignored; Or, it's one of the numerous people who have an axe to grind, trying to avoid seeming petty and get a retaliatory cussing up.

However, giving the benefit of the doubt, as I am wont to do in these circumstances-
Yeah, and qdrop also said I had a chip on my shoulder because I was in a wheelchair. Shows what he knows. While I appreciate you, and other posters (Valvano, for example, what great company you are in!) really really want to try and get such lables to stick (unable to get the upper hand in a discussion as you are), such wishful thinking isn't really convincing to anyone except those who are already personally inclined to believe it.

If *I* had been repeatedly owned and made to seem foolish by someone like myself, I am sure I'd try to marginalise my comments in precisely the same way the other posters here have. And if I wasn't confident of what I was saying, I'd probably hide behind an alias to do so too.

[Ace42X]

Aha, why, if it isn't Tone Capone! Another person on my ignore list. Why, I do declare, people go to extraordinary lengths to try to get back at me, don't they? What a surprise that one of the people who agree with Qdrop's assessment is *one of the people I cussed always from sideways for being very very profoundly ignorant and prejudiced*!

So, still trying to get back at me for implying you were given blowjobs by horses, eh?

Sherlock Holmes strikes again, and what a surprise, I was totally right in my prediction that it was a know-nothing lamer with an axe to grind, cowardly hiding behind an alias!

[Qdrop]

now Ace is actually creating posts just to congratulate himself in some manner.

for fuck's sake.

[RichG]

oh fuck you.

you are such an over-the-top american basher.

you say this shit so much you've just caricatured yourself into irrelevancy.

americans cause cancer and poverty and AIDS and crack....it's all because of us.

jealous, spoiled fuckin brit living off his mum and dads income.

.

[Ace42X]

More aliases coming out of the woodwork? What a surprise. You know, if I get to you THAT much, you are welcome to vote me off the board: http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=68610

Of course, you'd have to use a genuine account, not an alias for that.

[D_Raay]

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16i/F-16I.html

Courtesy of the American taxpayer...

[Ali]

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16i/F-16I.html

Courtesy of the American taxpayer...

Iranian Air force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiG-29)

[mikizee]

Israelis See Their Own Nation As "Neighborhood Bully"
by Ira Chernus
Published on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 by CommonDreams.org

You can see Lebanon from my sister’s backyard. She and her family and thousands of others in northern Israel live with a constant roar of gunfire -- mostly from Israeli cannons aiming to kill Lebanese, occasionally from a Hezbollah shell that might land on them.

But the real threat to Israel doesn’t come from Lebanese rockets. The real threat comes from the Israelis themselves -- and the rest of the world -- forgetting how and why this war started.

Israel does not go to war just to retrieve kidnapped soldiers. In the past, it has been ready to ransom them by returning Palestinian and Lebanese captives that it holds, just as the kidnappers ask. So why war now? For answers I’ve turned to Jewish writers in Israel’s top newspaper, Ha’aretz.

Last month the two main Palestinian factions, Hamas and Fatah, agreed to form a united government and offer Israel a plan for permanent peace. A Ha’aretz columnist observed at the time that the peace offer “should have sparked a wave of positive reactions from Jerusalem … But Jerusalem's ear as usual is blocked to any sound that might advance the peace process.” Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert still insists on his unilateral “convergence” plan, which is merely “a plan to perpetuate the occupation, only under conditions more convenient for Israel. Moreover, at the end of the plan, if it is ever executed, even more settlers will live in the occupied territories than live there now.”

For the Israeli government, another Ha’aretz columnist wrote, “it is best that the Palestinians remain extremists because then no one will ask the government of Israel to negotiate with them. How do we ensure that the Palestinians remain radical? We simply strike at them, over and over.” So Israel responded to the Palestinian offer of negotiated peace with an allout assault on Gaza. That’s how and why it all began.

Now words from Jewish writers in Ha’aretz in the past week:

“The Israel Defense Forces once again looks like the neighborhood bully. … One and only one language is spoken by Israel, the language of force. The IDF absorbed two painful blows, which were particularly humiliating, and in their wake went into a war that is all about restoring its lost dignity.”

“The camouflage concealing the war's real goals was ripped off by this defense minister [Peretz], who says what he means: ‘[Hezbollah leader] Nasrallah is going to get it so bad that he will never forget the name Amir Peretz,’ he bragged, like a typical bully.”

“[Prime Minister] Olmert's cocktail of remarks has included threats (‘We'll grit our teeth and knock them silly,’ and ‘We'll have these Hamas leaders weeping and wailing. No one who messes with us is going to get off scot free.’")

“Lior Horev, Olmert's strategic adviser, says: ‘Such fundamental issues as self-image and standing in the international arena are critically challenged.’”

“Releasing prisoners will make us look like suckers.”

“Another generation of impassioned youngsters is growing up around us and screaming over the Internet: ‘Stick it to them.’ … On television there still will be the same generals, with the same conception, with the same short and limited range of strategic understanding, and they will win the same enthusiasm from the public that just wants to ‘stick it to them.’ This trigger finger thought in terms of ‘who will stick more to whom.’"

“While we're in no hurry to get to the negotiating table, we're eager to get to the battlefield and the killing without delay, without taking any time to think. That deepens suspicions that we need a war every few years, with terrifying repetition, even if afterward we end up back in exactly the same position.”

Why need a war every few years? Turn for a moment from Ha’aretz, often called the Hebrew equivalent of the New York Times, to the real New York Times, where Israeli novelist Etgar Keret pulled back the curtain. Among Israeli Jews, Keret wrote, after the attack on Lebanon began, “there was a small gleam in almost everyone’s eyes, a kind of unconscious breath of relief. … We long for a real war to take the place of all those exhausting years of intifada when there was no black or white, only gray … Once again, we’re a small country surrounded by enemies, fighting for our lives, not a strong, occupying country forced to fight daily against a civilian population. So is it any wonder that we’re all secretly just a tiny bit relieved?”

The idea of Israel as a tiny victim fighting for its life may be comforting for Israelis, but it is an illusion. My sister and her family are obviously scared, with good reason. Some Israelis have died, and every life is precious. But she goes to work every day as usual. It sounds like her biggest immediate problem is her dog, who trembles and whimpers at the continual sound of Israeli gunfire. “Massive wave of Katyushas strikes northern Israel; No injuries reported,” she reads in the latest Ha’aretz headline.

On the other side of the border, my brother-in-law writes, “most of the Shi'ite villages and towns that have been pounded are destroyed. … The Israelis have continually pounded the Shi'ite Dahia neighborhood [of Beirut], a Hezbollah stronghold, into rubble. The entire population, numbering perhaps up to two hundred thousand people were compelled to abandon their homes.” Well over 200 civilians have already died, and the Israeli Air Force talks about weeks more of the same.

The best writers in Ha’aretz know that some day Israel must give up its bullying, and that means giving up its illusions: the fiction that Israel is an innocent victim, merely responding to unprovoked aggression, and the vain hope that brutal force can restore an insecure bully’s wounded pride. As long as that lethal brew of illusion dominates Israel’s public mind and mood, Israeli bombs will keep on killing in Lebanon and Gaza, and the victims will fight back, endangering Israeli lives too.

Ha’aretz readers have been told the bottom line truth. The cause of this war -- and all of Israel’s problems -- is its refusal to negotiate an end to the occupation of Palestine. “On the southern [Gaza] front we have continued waging a dubious war with no clear objective, wrapped up with intercessions and excuses that do not manage to hide our refusal to speak with the Palestinians.” “There is no basic justice in adhering to occupied territory.” “The siege on the Hamas government is not weakening it. On the contrary, it is boosting support for it.”

“Israel has no option in the long run other than withdrawing from the territories and from the occupation. … Israel's interest is for the Palestinians to live a life of plenty and well-being.” But if this Israeli government “sinks into the destructive, meaningless routines that characterized its predecessors, the rest of the decade will turn into a disaster zone.”

Ira Chernus is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder and author of the forthcoming book "Monsters to Destroy: The Neoconservative War on Terror and Sin." Email to: chernus@colorado.edu

[mikizee]

A little Israel Q & A.

Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?
Answer: Israel.

Question: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?
Answer: Israel.

Question Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated?
Answer: Israel.

Question: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated?
Answer: Israel.

Question: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?
Answer: Israel.

Question. What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody?
Answer: Israel

Question. What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque.
Answer: Israel

Question: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?
Answer: Israel.

Question. Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana, Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-third of all U.S. aid yet is the 16th richest country in the world?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S.?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely insults the American people by having its Prime Minister address the United States Congress and lecturing them like children on why they have no right to reduce foreign aid?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because "We control America?"
Answer: Israel

Question: What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International for demolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing.
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing 15 civilians including 9 children?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehicles, bulldozers, or tanks?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes?
Answer: Israel.

[mikizee]

boy, did my last 2 posts kill this thread or what?

[Schmeltz]

In the sense that they provided a sort of informational terminus to any support for the (reprehensible) Israeli position in this conversation, then yes. Resoundingly so.

[Ali]

A little Israel Q & A.

Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?
Answer: Israel.

Question: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?
Answer: Israel.

Question Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated?
Answer: Israel.

Question: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated?
Answer: Israel.

Question: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?
Answer: Israel.

Question. What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody?
Answer: Israel

Question. What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque.
Answer: Israel

Question: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?
Answer: Israel.

Question. Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana, Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-third of all U.S. aid yet is the 16th richest country in the world?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S.?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely insults the American people by having its Prime Minister address the United States Congress and lecturing them like children on why they have no right to reduce foreign aid?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because "We control America?"
Answer: Israel

Question: What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International for demolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing.
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing 15 civilians including 9 children?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehicles, bulldozers, or tanks?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East had the most to gain from the events which took place in New York on September 11, 2001 and had the capability to pull it off?
Answer: Israel.