Kidnapped U.S. soldiers beheaded

[kaiser soze]

Video shows soldiers who were killed, mutilated and beheaded by Al Qaeda belonging to the same unit as Steven Green and others who raped and murdered a 15 or 14 year old Iraqi girl and members of her family.

"Here is a film on the remains of the bodies of the two American soldiers kidnapped near Yussufiyah (south of Baghdad). We are showing it to avenge our sister who was raped by a soldier belonging to the same division as these two soldiers," said a preamble by the Mujahedeen Al-Shura Council

This war is beyond horrible, it is an atrocity to all who are involved and the cycle of violence continues. It is frightening to wonder how the U.S. military will respond to this.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060711/wl_mideast_afp/iraqusunresthostages

WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT!

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/us_soldiers_kidnapped_in_iraq_shown_dead_in_video_ Jul_10_2006.html

[enree erzweglle]

I absolutely refuse to look at videos like that or even read descriptions of what's in them. What is the point of that. I wonder why people watch videos of grizzly deaths/murders. What purpose does that serve. In my mind, it further propagates the hate and violence and evil. Even the slightest exposure to that is just too risky.

[abcdefz]

Reading about it was bad enough. (n)

That whole situation was awful. I can't believe sometimes what people are willing to do to each other.

[drizl]

on the otherhand, it shows you reality...it shows you what really happens out there...an as for videos of soldiers being beheaded...i am not watching it, but knowing that it is out there some how reinforces what has just happened to them, their families, and to those on the otherside. its sick and terrible, but no more so than war- especially this war. i dont root for the iraqis, but the soldiers who go into this war need to know that it is bullshit, that they are putting their lives out there for some asshole who wants to profit and drive the world into fear and shock-n-awe. fucking awful

[abcdefz]

You can never un-see it, though.

If it were your son or brother or boyfriend or uncle... would you want strangers at large to be able to see it? I'd feel like it was a further violation. I don't know how you could watch something like than in any pure-of-heart way.

[enree erzweglle]

the soldiers who go into this war need to know that it is bullshit, that they are putting their lives out there for some asshole who wants to profit and drive the world into fear and shock-n-awe. fucking awfulWe (you and I) have had a go at this once before, but maybe it's worth repeating even though I think it's fairly obvious.

Kids in the military can't treat their assignments like they're part of an ala carte menu. Those kids train, they get assigned, they have no say in those assignments.

So what choice do these soldiers have? I'm talking about the men/women who enlisted, say, 3-5 years ago and who are on active deployment right now. What real choice do they have if they're being called up to serve in a war/effort that they don't personally agree with?

When there is an unquestionably legitimate attack on the U.S. how we'll want those troops to be at their peak.

[enree erzweglle]

You can never un-see it, though.

If it were your son or brother or boyfriend or uncle... would you want strangers at large to be able to see it? I'd feel like it was a further violation. I don't know how you could watch something like than in any pure-of-heart way.That's exactly right. You can never un-see or un-hear it. For my one friend who watched Berg's beheading video, it's the un-hearing that's a surprising (to her) problem. She very clearly still hears that video in her head. She sees it as well, but when she used to talk about it (I've asked her not to do that around me), she talked about sounds nearly as much as visuals. That video traumatized her much, much more than she thought it would.

What you said about watching it with any kind of a pure heart--that's what I was driving at with my questions. For people who didn't know the victim, what is the purpose of watching it and is it worth taking the risk that you're just furthering that sort of evil or that you're somehow unknowingly planting the seed of it deep within yourself.

[kaiser soze]

Please don't think I was trying to encourage anyone to look, but for those curious (hopefully not in a sadistic way) I provided the link (also as support to this story)

Also remember that it's not just the death of U.S. troops, journalists, or civilians that are being broadcasted. There are hundreds if not thousands of sites showing mutilated bodies of innocent Iraqi's and Afghani's. This is war, scores of people are being killed and the truth hurts beyond belief. :(

[Ace42X]

So what choice do these soldiers have?

The denial of personal responsibility is at the heart of all atrocities.

[QueenAdrock]

I looked for the sole purpose that I'm looking to get my Master's in Holocaust/Genocide Studies and I should get used to seeing stuff like that.

I'll look more into other majors, too. It's an important topic to deal with, but seeing stuff like that ALL the time would probably make me sub-human and dead inside.:(

[jackrock]

It's sad and disgusting that a human being would do this to another.

[drizl]

why we are so appauled by the picture of a dead body, when we run over squirrels and bunnies and deer all the time on the road. but when we see a human body, we relate to it so much that we feel sickness in their suffering...its just another road kill.

[Ace42X]

It's sad and disgusting that a human being would do this to another.

More sad and disgusting than what happens when you drop a missile on a crowded residential area? Or deploy napalm on a village?

[jackrock]

That as well, but I'm focusing on this topic.

[Ace42X]

My point was more that inhumanity and atrocities are part and parcel of wars, and just making sure the thread doesn't degenerate into a "wars are noble important hero-makers, and terrorists are vile sub-humans" ranting.

[kaiser soze]

I looked for the sole purpose that I'm looking to get my Master's in Holocaust/Genocide Studies and I should get used to seeing stuff like that.

I'll look more into other majors, too. It's an important topic to deal with, but seeing stuff like that ALL the time would probably make me sub-human and dead inside.:(

Is this a masters in History?

sadly these images are another reminder why an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind

[QueenAdrock]

Nope, not history. Masters of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies. They've got a few programs, one in NJ and one in PA. Still looking though. Not sure if I want to devote 2 years of my life to seeing atrocities. I was able to deal with 2 courses pretty well, but it'd consume my life if it was my major, so...yeah.

[kaiser soze]

well, with the way things are going you may very likely find good use for this degree

U.S. blames Iran, Syria for Hezbollah kidnappings (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LA622138.htm)

Looks like they will find a way to squeeze in Iran

I just can't believe this anymore, how can a government that has sanctioned the "kidnapping" of hundreds if not thousands of men and imprisoned them for years with no charge blame others so harshly for much minor offenses?

this is bananas

[Tone Capone]

More sad and disgusting than what happens when you drop a missile on a crowded residential area? Or deploy napalm on a village?

MUCH sadder... :(

[Funkaloyd]

My point was more that inhumanity and atrocities are part and parcel of wars, and just making sure the thread doesn't degenerate into a "wars are noble important hero-makers, and terrorists are vile sub-humans" ranting.
Well shit, NOW the thread's gonna go that way.

[Pres Zount]

Nope, not history. Masters of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies. They've got a few programs, one in NJ and one in PA. Still looking though. Not sure if I want to devote 2 years of my life to seeing atrocities. I was able to deal with 2 courses pretty well, but it'd consume my life if it was my major, so...yeah.

That's an interesting subject.

may I ask what historical cases you have covered? You can generalise. I'd probably do that if it was avaliable to me.

[enree erzweglle]

My point was more that inhumanity and atrocities are part and parcel of wars, and just making sure the thread doesn't degenerate into a "wars are noble important hero-makers, and terrorists are vile sub-humans" ranting.Yes on those counts. And as to your previous point, I was talking about men/women who are already contracted who have been assigned and who are on active duty. What choice do those people have once they find themselves assigned to or mired in a conflict or a war that they don't at all support on a personal or moral basis. I understand that they can quit and get a dishonorable discharge and then face jail time but are there any other alternatives for people in that position?

Sometimes people seem to look at war and point fingers at the soldiers for "not knowing better" about its cause, as if those soldiers have a choice about when and how they fight. Everyone is relieved when there is an unquestionable attack and the response to that attack is to put troops in front, but some people seem to not understand that those troops have to be trained long before that war begins and it's a crap shoot whether/not they'll get a "noble" assignment.

[Ace42X]

Sometimes people seem to look at war and point fingers at the soldiers for "not knowing better" about its cause, as if those soldiers have a choice about when and how they fight.

They should know better than to sign up in the first place. They should know that they are obliged to fight for whatever immoral crusade they are told to, and as such shouldn't put themselves in that position in the first place.

You might as well say a man, having walked into a bar and called the less respectable clientale "a bunch of cock-kissing pansy-fags" "has no choice about how and when they fight."

Yes, but you shouldn't put yourself in that situation in the first place. And yes, if they choose not to fight, they have to go to jail. Big deal, Mandella went to jail, Ghandi went to jail. PUSSIES kill people with big fuck off missiles from miles and miles away because they are scared of doing a little porridge.

Everyone is relieved when there is an unquestionable attack and the response to that attack is to put troops in front,

Not me, because I know that "unquestionable attacks" are invariably fictions used to provide a justification for expansionist wars. For example, the Japan using the "abduction" of two of their soldiers by Chinese forces to invade further provinces before the second world war. Turns out the two Jap soldiers got lost, were asking for directions, and were not harmed in any way shape or form.

I was not "relieved" when US troops were sent into Afghanistan or Iraq following "unquestionable attacks" - and as my posts here and elsewhere testify, I predicted this whole horrible ordeal.

but some people seem to not understand that those troops have to be trained long before that war begins and it's a crap shoot whether/not they'll get a "noble" assignment.

There are no "noble" wars, other than those the victors tell us were in the history books. Propoganda. And if no armies were trained, there would be no wars. The idea that there is anything "noble" about killing is a farce.

"Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." - Hemingway

[Tone Capone]

You take your freedom for granted.

[enree erzweglle]

They should know better than to sign up in the first place. They're getting these kids who are 17 and 18, just out on their own for the first time for most of them, and bunches of those kids, man, they can barely hold their own in college. Army recruiters pitching dreams to these kids who are disenfranchised enough as it is. Amazing that they can recruit these kids, get them to contract away their lives for 6 years, yet the kids themselves can't even drink legally yet. Maybe you need to sit in on a recruiting session--listen to those guys in action--to get the full impact of this.

There's something all wrong with that and there's no absolutely no denying it.

The recruiting process is perhaps handled differently in the U.K., but there needs to be big-time reform in the way it's handled here. If there were reforms--if there was more active involvement of parents and college advisors--then I would say that the kids are likely going to be in a better position to make an informed decision. As it is, they're often making these major life decisions based on lie after lie, empty promise after empty promise and there is NOTHING that anyone on the outside can do about it.

[Ace42X]

As it is, they're often making these major life decisions based on lie after lie, empty promise after empty promise and there is NOTHING that anyone on the outside can do about it.

I concur it is unfortunate, and corrupt, etc etc. But does that excuse anything? I find myself saying "I am not saying it EXCUSES <such and such>, but at least you can understand it..." here on all manner of topics quite regularly.

I am more than willing to extend the same to US soldiers, BUT, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of the posters in this forum are more than willing to condemn condemn condemn all sorts of people, until it comes to "our heroes".

[Qdrop]

My point was more that inhumanity and atrocities are part and parcel of wars, and just making sure the thread doesn't degenerate into a "wars are noble important hero-makers, and terrorists are vile sub-humans" ranting.

so you never see any differance between any "sides" troops and their actions?

what about british troops vs. Nazis in WW2?

[QueenAdrock]

That's an interesting subject.

may I ask what historical cases you have covered? You can generalise. I'd probably do that if it was avaliable to me.

I haven't yet started my master's, right now I'm in the whole searching part/studying for my GREs/saving money period.

However, for my undergrad I had taken courses in Nazi Germany (forced to read Filip Muller's "Eyewitness Auschwitz"...very numbing), and had an especially interesting course called "Human Rights in the West, Post-WWII". Covered a good portion of Ireland/England, France/Algeria, Rwanda, Bosnia, parts of South America like Chile. We didn't get too much into Darfur because it was still relatively new; not a lot of information had come out. The specific case that I had focused on was Bobby Sands in 1981, he was an IRA member who went on a hunger strike over his terribly unsanitary living conditions in prison. Not genocide, but it was human rights. I had to read a lot of case studies of use of torture against the IRA (though I'm more than sure it goes both ways), general stuff like starvation, refusal of sleep (surprisingly, one of the most cruel torture tactics), beating, psychological torture, etc. Bad stuff, man. (n)

[enree erzweglle]

I concur it is unfortunate, and corrupt, etc etc. But does that excuse anything? I find myself saying "I am not saying it EXCUSES <such and such>, but at least you can understand it..." here on all manner of topics quite regularly.

I am more than willing to extend the same to US soldiers, BUT, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of the posters in this forum are more than willing to condemn condemn condemn all sorts of people, until it comes to "our heroes".This is the second time in as many days where being here has made me feel like a scene from a movie. Today, it's that scene from Spinal Tap where Nigel is talking about his Marshall and is saying something like, "Most guys will be playing at 10. You’re doing 10. It's all the way up. All the way up. Where can you go from there? Nowhere. What we do, is if we need that extra push, we go to eleven. One louder." and Rob Reiner's character says, "Why don’t you just make 10 louder. Make 10 be the top number and make it be a little louder?" and then Nigel thinks about that and then goes "These go to 11."

That's what I feel like here and it's because I am too close/attached to this particular issue, so I'll divorce myself from this one.

[Ace42X]

That's what I feel like here and it's because I am too close/attached to this particular issue, so I'll divorce myself from this one.

While I can see that would be sensible, even so I respect your opinion on the matter, even more so because of your position.

[enree erzweglle]

While I can see that would be sensible, even so I respect your opinion on the matter, even more so because of your position.
That's very kind. Thanks, Ace.

The part about Why We Fight that I found to be the most effective was the bits where they showed that kid whose mom had just died and the kid was clearly lost and found his way to a recruiting office and the recruiter promised him that if he enlisted, he'd fly stealth helicopters. It was sad.

I just learned that my son's unit will ship to Iraq in December. :(

[Ace42X]

I just learned that my son's unit will ship to Iraq in December. :(

Eeek. Hopefully he will have a non-combat role far away from the front lines.