Utopian/Dystopian fiction

[Nuzzolese]

I just read Animal Farm again because I love reading stories where a community changes itself and organizes it's own system to (try to)create a better society. Even though it becomes corrupt and disgustingly twisted in this book (as revolutions often do in reality, ahem), I enjoy reading about the process of it all.

At times we all think of how things could be so simple theoretically; you make a list of essentials and imagine the most logical way to achieve balance and get things done.

Even when I was a kid I used to dream up little countries and societies with my toys. I would give them all jobs to do and places to live, and write their stories about how perfectly everything worked and how they all lived in harmony.

My favorite types of children's books were the kinds that told about how the farm worked all year, or how different living things had different homes. I mean didn't you just LOVE how The Swiss Family Robinson got shit done and organized what they needed and who needed to do what?

Anyway I'm getting off topic here. Well what is the topic anyway? The fantasy of a perfect culture. It all seems so simple. And it's fun to read about how someone took the time to think of all the details for what would go into a society like that.

Some good books to indulge in this fantasy and to get ideas to fuel your own imagination and ideas - even though they typically include the realistic faults.

Brave New World
Animal Farm
Walden II
Fight Club
We
Lord of the Flies
1984 - I never did finish that though

I've found that a lot of books and movies alluding to depression era times indulge in this kind of idea, of being self sufficient and having what you need. (Of Mice and Men)

Most fiction and satire of the kind of fantasy societies try to show the faults, or the inherent anti-humanity of a culture like that. Why is that? Even stupid old episodes of Star Trek when they'd go visit some sedated culture with perfect order and no fighting or stealing and we'd all have our minds allegedly blown over the notion that someone would want to live that way. :rolleyes:

[Pres Zount]

Go and finish 1984.

I had another that I was going to add to your list but I've forgoten what it is called. It was a poem. A long one.

[jabumbo]

piggy is one of my favorite story characters


second only to jerry in the chocolate war (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=12693), which is one of my favorite books ever

[Mr. Boomin'Granny]

Superfudge

[Dorothy Wood]

Most fiction and satire of the kind of fantasy societies try to show the faults, or the inherent anti-humanity of a culture like that. Why is that? Even stupid old episodes of Star Trek when they'd go visit some sedated culture with perfect order and no fighting or stealing and we'd all have our minds allegedly blown over the notion that someone would want to live that way. :rolleyes:

because utopia the actual word, means "no place". it can't exist. for the capitalist machine to run, there must be friction. all balance means nobody's making money. and the people who like to make money usually rule things. utopian societies are looked at as communist. maybe not today, but certainly as recently as 40-50 years ago.

I also think that creative people (i.e. the authors of these books), by nature are very passionate and usually outsiders in a way that would make them feel unnecessary and constrained in a mild world without conflict. they're trying to justify the cruel nature of the world by making the case that our lives would be meaningless if there were no extreme highs or lows. while most would be happy to take the easy predictable safe life, in the grand scheme of things, no progress would be made when there is nothing left to need.

ah, but what is progress?

[Ace42X]

I am a big fan of Dystopian fiction myself.

Read: http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/mopi1.html

It varies between insightful and brilliant, and cheesey tittilating sci-fi.

[Dorothy Wood]

ugh, I can barely stand the first sentence, it reads like porn. I keep trying to scan for the dirty parts.

[Ace42X]

Yah, I said large parts of it are tittilating. Other parts are good.

[Dorothy Wood]

I can't read bad writing, it makes my face hurt.

[Ace42X]

I can't read bad writing, it makes my face hurt.

The writing gets better, and while it isn't exactly Beckett, it isn't "wrong".

[Dorothy Wood]

WRITE A SUMMARY, READ IT ALOUD AS YOU RECORD IT ON TAPE, THEN MAIL IT TO ME.

[Bob]

I was at Barnes & Noble the other day, and I went into the Cafe to buy a Latte and a Chocolate Chip Cookie for myself and a friend, and they only had two cookies left and the guy threw away one of the cookies right in front of me because it had broken in half and said "we only have one" and I said "why did you throw the other cookie away?" and he said "because it was broken" I asked him if it was store policy to do so and he said "yes, we do not sale broken pastries" and I was so digusted. Like my stomach would know the fucking difference.

I am never dropping a single dime in Barnes & Nobles pocket again, plus Amazon is cheaper.

Sorry, but that was ridiculous.

i bet people spit in your food more than you realize

[adam_f]

Originally posted by Skye
I was at Barnes & Noble the other day, and I went into the Cafe to buy a Latte and a Chocolate Chip Cookie for myself and a friend, and they only had two cookies left and the guy threw away one of the cookies right in front of me because it had broken in half and said "we only have one" and I said "why did you throw the other cookie away?" and he said "because it was broken" I asked him if it was store policy to do so and he said "yes, we do not sale broken pastries" and I was so digusted. Like my stomach would know the fucking difference.

I am never dropping a single dime in Barnes & Nobles pocket again, plus Amazon is cheaper.

Sorry, but that was ridiculous.

Fucking California.

[monkey]

i love orwell, his writings, the way he thought of the world and wrote about it. 1984 is my favorite novel, with animal farm close behind.

the way he explains the notion of utopia is how i learned to understand it. in theory, it's perfect. it's the best way for all the people. the problem (much like the problem with socialism) is that what is best for most tends to suck for the rest. and since the ones with power will want it to not suck for them, it will trickle down to suck for the ones with least power (the poorests, the "unenlightened", etc).

[Qdrop]

the thing about Utopia vs. Dystopia....is that it is much like "good vs. evil".

they are human constructs, philosophies with values given to things that give us pleasure stimuli vs. things that give us pain, discomfort, etc.

it exists only in our minds.


the idea that our world is utopian vs. dystopian is kind of moot.

in a way, one could argue (from an anthropic principled point of view), that our world and universe IS utopian, in that it came together and evolved to the point that we appeared and are able to discuss utopia vs. dystopia.
how perfect.

but as far the real topic of this thread, and Utopian/Dystopian fiction....
i find dystopic fiction far more interesting and enthralling....
all of the graphic novels i own and read REVEL in dystopia (Sin City, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Golden Age...)

[mickill]

We read Animal Farm in the 4th grade. I think we watched the cartoon movie first, though. I liked 1984 better. You should finish reading it.

The Swiss Family Robinson is a childhood favorite. Okay, fine, adulthood favorite as well.

[Dorothy Wood]

the thing about Utopia vs. Dystopia....is that it is much like "good vs. evil".

they are human constructs, philosophies with values given to things that give us pleasure stimuli vs. things that give us pain, discomfort, etc.

it exists only in our minds.


the idea that our world is utopian vs. dystopian is kind of moot.

in a way, one could argue (from an anthropic principled point of view), that our world and universe IS utopian, in that it came together and evolved to the point that we appeared and are able to discuss utopia vs. dystopia.
how perfect.

but as far the real topic of this thread, and Utopian/Dystopian fiction....
i find dystopic fiction far more interesting and enthralling....
all of the graphic novels i own and read REVEL in dystopia (Sin City, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Golden Age...)

this is a bunch of horseshit that doesn't really mean anything. also, utopia and dystopia are not opposites. utopia isn't "good", the word itself means "no place", dystopia means, "bad place". Our universe can't be a utopia, because utopias don't exist. fuck, my face hurts from reading that.

[Ace42X]

also, utopia and dystopia are not opposites. utopia isn't "good", the word itself means "no place", dystopia means, "bad place". Our universe can't be a utopia, because utopias don't exist. fuck, my face hurts from reading that.

Also, literarily, as opposed to literally, a utopia is a perfect society, a dystopia is "a perfect society that is sinister or bad in its perfection."

The opposite of utopia would be a more anarchistic society, or one structured around institutionalised chaos.

[Dorothy Wood]

yeah, that too. hi5.

[Qdrop]

this is a bunch of horseshit that doesn't really mean anything. also, utopia and dystopia are not opposites. utopia isn't "good", the word itself means "no place", dystopia means, "bad place". Our universe can't be a utopia, because utopias don't exist. fuck, my face hurts from reading that.

u·to·pi·an Audio pronunciation of "utopian" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (y-tp-n)
adj.

1. often Utopian Of, relating to, describing or having the characteristics of a Utopia: a Utopian island; Utopian novels.
2.
1. Excellent or ideal but impracticable; visionary: a utopian scheme for equalizing wealth.
2. Proposing impracticably ideal schemes.


dystopian

adj 1: of or pertaining to or resembling a dystopia 2: as bad as can be; characterized by human misery;


you lose, dorthy.

[Qdrop]

Also, literarily, as opposed to literally, a utopia is a perfect society, a dystopia is "a perfect society that is sinister or bad in its perfection."

The opposite of utopia would be a more anarchistic society, or one structured around institutionalised chaos.

because of the broad definition of the word ^that's more opinion, than fact.

particularly when are dealing with a literary impression.

[mickill]

you lose, dorthy.
...and your little dog, too!

[Qdrop]

...and your little dog, too!

yeah, i was gonna start breaking out the OZ referances...but i wanted to wait a bit...

i can't wait to use the "you're not in Kansas anymore" line....

it'll be fantastic.

[Dorothy Wood]

no, I don't lose. utopia/dystopia is a literary device anyway, it's not a real thing. it's fiction. the only reality that is described as utopian is described so as it relates to literature. not to mention, the highlighted parts of your definitions are only that, parts. you can't pick and choose the origin and meaning of words to suit your argument, which isn't even an argument, it's psuedointellectual crap that has absolutely no meaning, and actually shows how little you really know about literature and it's devices.

I have to go teach some math now! :mad:

[Dorothy Wood]

because of the broad definition of the word ^that's more opinion, than fact.

particularly when are dealing with a literary impression.

YOU'RE STUPID YOU'RE STUPID YOU'RE STUPID

[Qdrop]

no, I don't lose. utopia/dystopia is a literary device anyway, it's not a real thing. it's fiction. the only reality that is described as utopian is described so as it relates to literature. not to mention, the highlighted parts of your definitions are only that, parts.

you've yet to show many any referance on your part as to why Utopian categorically means "no place".
the fact that you keep repeating it does not make it true, dorthy.

Utopian certainly can mean "fiction" in the sense that is an "ideal" or unreachable or impracticle standard of existance...particulary when used in literature.


you can't pick and choose the origin and meaning of words to suit your argument, at least i'm using established, published definitions. what about you?

which isn't even an argument, it's psuedointellectual crap that has absolutely no meaning, and actually shows how little you really know about literature and it's devices. dear dorthy, incongruity on YOUR part does not make pseudointellectual crap on my part.

I have to go teach some math now! :mad:
well thank god you don't teach literature.

[Qdrop]

YOU'RE STUPID YOU'RE STUPID YOU'RE STUPID

^certainly a far cry from pseudointellectual.

congrats.

[abcdefz]

Brave New World
Animal Farm
Walden II
Fight Club
We
Lord of the Flies
1984 - I never did finish that though




...you might want to try The Dispossessed. (LeGuin?)

[abcdefz]

They tried to set up a utopia in Indiana.

New Harmony, Indiana. (http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/HNS/Cities/newharmony.html)

[SobaViolence]

The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas.

perfection is over-rated

[Dorothy Wood]

2.
1. Excellent or ideal but impracticable; visionary: a utopian scheme for equalizing wealth.
2. Proposing impracticably ideal schemes.




why, it's in your very own citation of the definition! let's see, impracticable...what could that mean? oh! I know, it means IMPOSSIBLE!

im·prac·ti·ca·ble
Pronunciation Key (m-prkt-k-bl)
adj.

1. Impossible to do or carry out: Refloating the sunken ship intact proved impracticable because of its fragility.
2. Unfit for passage: roads impracticable in winter.
3. Archaic. Unmanageable; intractable.



and from wikipedia

De Optimo Reipublicae Statu deque Nova Insula Utopia (translated On the Best State of a Republic and on the New Island of Utopia) or more simply Utopia is a 1516 book by Sir Thomas More.

The book, written in Latin, is a frame narrative primarily depicting a fictional island society and its religious, social and political customs. The name of the place, Utopia, is derived from the Greek words ou ("not") and topos ("place"), meaning the name of the island is literally "no place." It also contains a pun, however, because the letter "u" could also theoretically be derived from the Greek eu ("good"). One interpretation holds that this suggests that while Utopia might be some sort of perfected society, it is ultimately unreachable. Despite modern connotations of the word "utopia," it is widely accepted that the society More describes in this work was not actually his own "perfect society." Rather he wished to use the contrast between the imaginary land's unusual political ideas and the chaotic politics of his own day as a platform from which to discuss social issues in Europe.

What probably first suggested the idea for Utopia to Thomas More was his work with Erasmus, when they jointly translated some of Lucian's works from Greek into Latin. Among these dialogues, one involved the story of Menippus, the Greek playwright, descending into the underworld and describing what he found there. The other significant influence was Plato's Republic, which is a far more politically motivated work about imaginary lands; it is referred to several times in Utopia.



please, oh please, tell me where I am incongruous?

[Ace42X]

Sarky owning Qdrop, now I've seen it all.

[Qdrop]

why, it's in your very own citation of the definition! let's see, impracticable...what could that mean? oh! I know, it means IMPOSSIBLE! yes, i've *already* stated that it can imply "fiction", etc...

however...


please, oh please, tell me where I am incongruous?


One interpretation holds that this suggests that while Utopia might be some sort of perfected society, it is ultimately unreachable. Despite modern connotations of the word "utopia," it is widely accepted that the society More describes in this work was not actually his own "perfect society." Rather he wished to use the contrast between the imaginary land's unusual political ideas and the chaotic politics of his own day as a platform from which to discuss social issues in Europe.

see, my rebuttal is right there in your own quotation....and that's exactly my point when talking about literary terms...THEY ARE OPEN TO INTERPRETATION...AND SUBJECT TO CULTURAL/GENERATION CHANGES IN USAGE....
THERE IS NO ALL INCLUSIVE USAGE, YOU TWIT!

you're a teacher?
good god.

my INITIAL point, was that just LIKE "good and evil", utopian vs distopian ideals are philosophical only (BEYOND your charge that Utopia, for one, is a purely literary/fictional device)...BECAUSE it deals with human labels on reality- that carry morality with them.

you're complaining that Utopia is simplya literary term meaning "not there" or whatever (despite the fact that it is currently often used in a differant sense), while i'm not even touching on that, really....i'm linking it's ideals to the rather arbitrary ideas of morality.
we're not even debating the same thing.

i suppose it's my fault for bringing in the definitions, that just muddles everything up and creates stupid side arguments....
but i learned that by watching ACE!

[Qdrop]

Sarky owning Qdrop, now I've seen it all.

ha...
from the coward who won't take me off ignore...

intimidated?

[Dorothy Wood]

yes, i've already stated that it can mean "fiction", etc...

however...



fiction is not necessarily impossible. it is only improbable. you asked me where I got the idea that utopia meant "no place" and I told you. I remembered it from school, but there it is, floating around in space, a motherfucking FACT!


see, my rebuttal is right there in your own quotation....and that's exactly my point when talking about literary terms...THEY ARE OPEN TO INTERPRETATION...AND SUBJECT TO CULTURAL/GENERATION CHANGES IN USAGE....
THERE IS NO ALL INCLUSIVE USAGE, YOU TWIT!


I'm not saying that there is an all inclusive definition of utopia/dystopia...only that they were not opposites, and definitely not on par with good vs. evil. one's utopia can be another person's dystopia and vice versa. the modern connotations of utopia are rather uninformed anyway, being based on the interpretations of people who did not understand that the word itself is a sort of joke.

if I'm not mistaken, nuzz's question was about why there are no uplifting utopian stories, why don't they ever work out. along with my own opinions, I offered the idea that perhaps as the origin of the word exists, a utopian society can inherently never be successful because it can never be.

and then you spouted off a bunch of hippie bullshit.

you're at the analysis stage right now. but you're not quite ready for the synthesis.

[SobaViolence]

your new incarnation has a lot more spunk.
that's hawt. almost utopian.
(y)

[Bob]

i love your spunky balls dorothy

[Ace42X]

I concur. Sarky is 66% better than ever.

[SobaViolence]

i love your spunky balls dorothy

i edited the shit out of you.
all your base belong to us.

[Bob]

i edited the shit out of you.
all your base belong to us.

oh i didn't even see your post

[Qdrop]

oh...look at the shiney things!
they're so shiney!

[SobaViolence]

oh i didn't even see your post

and in the end, bob stood victorious.

fuck this, i'm going to Montreal.

[Qdrop]

fiction is not necessarily impossible. it is only improbable. you asked me where I got the idea that utopia meant "no place" and I told you. I remembered it from school, but there it is, floating around in space, a motherfucking FACT! yeah, you found the greek route of the word.

come on.
you can't pretend that generations and culture can't change and expand the usage of a word.



I'm not saying that there is an all inclusive definition of utopia/dystopia funny, you were only a few posts ago.

"utopia/dystopia is a literary device anyway, it's not a real thing. it's fiction. the only reality that is described as utopian is described so as it relates to literature." - Sarky Dorthy Smudgeface

...only that they were not opposites, and definitely not on par with good vs. evil. i likened them, sarky...and linked them through the fact that both are rather arbitrary HUMAN labels on reality that only exist in a philosphical sense.

one's utopia can be another person's dystopia and vice versa. YEAH! JUST LIKE GOOD AND EVIL! HELLOOOOOOOOO!

the modern connotations of utopia are rather uninformed anyway, being based on the interpretations of people who did not understand that the word itself is a sort of joke. well, that's another discussion all together and comes off rather snobbish.



and then you spouted off a bunch of hippie bullshit.
you just can't handle my infinite nature.

you're at the analysis stage right now. but you're not quite ready for the synthesis.
ha..yeah.
your real-life relationship issues depict are real strong ability for you to understand and digest the world around you.


hahha...yeah, i got owned all right.

[Dorothy Wood]

no, one person's good does not equal another person's evil.

in a discussion of good vs. evil, "good" is what is in favor of life and the successful progression of mankind. "evil" is in favor of death and destruction. while some people may enjoy being "evil", it can never be mistaken for actual "good". as for the "HUMAN" labels. who else labels things anyway?

the roots of the word "utopia" are greek, yes. good job. but they were chosen to convey meaning, as the word was invented by Sir Thomas More, the author. and though it may be "snobbish", it's true that many people didn't/don't quite grasp its real meaning.

so far, it seems to me that you're trying to prove that "utopia" can and has existed. so prove it. give me a book/novel/text that describes a successful utopian society. show me a place in the world where that happens, where there is perfection.


"utopia/dystopia is a literary device anyway, it's not a real thing. it's fiction. the only reality that is described as utopian is described so as it relates to literature." - Sarky Dorthy Smudgeface


I stand by that statement. it's not real, it's a way to describe something, yes, but ultimately it's a formula for a story. and even if I described something as "utopian", would it really be an actual utopia?

go tend your garden.

[Dorothy Wood]

hahha...yeah, i got owned all right.


weak edit.

[Qdrop]

no, one person's good does not equal another person's evil.

in a discussion of good vs. evil, "good" is what is in favor of life and the successful progression of mankind. "evil" is in favor of death and destruction. while some people may enjoy being "evil", it can never be mistaken for actual "good".
oh god, you are so off base.
and this is exaclty my point.
"good is what is favor of life".
uh huh. so is it evil for a lion to kill a gazelle?
good for the lion, bad for the gazelle....OH MY GOD! one's "good" can be another's "evil".

synthesize that.

as for the "HUMAN" labels. who else labels things anyway? EXACTLY...which is why things like good and evil, or utopian or dystopian are simply human constructs about their perception of reality.

if you use the word "utopia" purely as literary referance to "impossible", than then the word stops there.

but if you were to, like many others, use it to descibe an existance (possible or not) which is in some way supreme, perfect, completely benevolant...than, you again fall into the moot territory of "good vs. bad", because one entity's supreme, perfect, benevolent existance, can be another's hell.
they are purely philosophical excersises (like morality) that only exist in our minds.

so while you are saying that "utopia" cannot exist because of it's greek root and literary definition/usage, i am saying that "utopia, dystopia, good, evil, morality, ethics" really can't exist anywhere other than the philosophical landscape of our minds because of thier inabilty to be grounded in anything other than one's PERCEPTION of reality.
meaning they could never be "truths".
hence- moot.

the roots of the word "utopia" are greek, yes. good job. but they were chosen to convey meaning, as the word was invented by Sir Thomas More, the author. and though it may be "snobbish", it's true that many people didn't/don't quite grasp its real meaning. okay, whatever...that's a side argument about proper or original uses of words vs. cultural changes...
boring shit.

so far, it seems to me that you're trying to prove that "utopia" can and has existed. . no, not at all....which is why this frustrating.




I stand by that statement. it's not real, it's a way to describe something, yes, but ultimately it's a formula for a story. yes, that's you greek-routed definition, yes. yay.

and even if I described something as "utopian", would it really be an actual utopia? EUREKA! common ground!
that's what I was getting at!

go tend your garden. i actually am about too.

[Dorothy Wood]

oh god, you are so off base.
and this is exaclty my point.
"good is what is favor of life".
uh huh. so is it evil for a lion to kill a gazelle?
good for the lion, bad for the gazelle....OH MY GOD! one's "good" can be another's "evil".

synthesize that.




no, a lion killing a gazelle is for survival, which is ultimately in favor of life. and bad does not equal evil.

I'm so on base that I am the base. I'm really not sure what you're arguing, as I plainly know more about this subject than you do. You're not willing to listen, and you don't seem to be making any real sense. therefore I will exit this discussion and claim victory whether you concede or not.

[Dorothy Wood]

also, I thank ye gentlemen for your support. I couldn't have done it without you.

<3

[Qdrop]

no, a lion killing a gazelle is for survival, which is ultimately in favor of life. and bad does not equal evil. in favor of life?
not for the gazelle.

this is like talking to a brick wall.

neither bad or evil can be anything other than mental constructs. philosophies that can never be proven "true" like physics or mathematics.
you cannot point to anything and say it is "good" or "moral"....you can only say that it is "good for me or us"...and even that is debatable.

now, if you wanted to get into humanist, or even naturalist thinking...then there is a certain connection between survival and what we call "good" or "moral". it's just that it's such a tough connection to make and ground in non-perceptual reality.

I'm really not sure what you're arguing, no fucking shit.

as I plainly know more about this subject than you do.
oh yes plainly.
just ask the gazelle.

You're not willing to listen,i've reiterated every point you have made to SHOW you that i understand your stance.
all i'm really looking for is for you to do the same.
you don't even have to agree with me, just show me you GET what i'm saying and understand it... that's really all i ever want in 90% of these debates.

and you don't seem to be making any real sense.
'i don't understand what you are saying, so you are wrong."

just point the areas that you think i am just spitting out faux-intellectual babble, and i will explain in simpler terms, complete with analogies and fuckin diagrams if i have to.
i'll do a fuckin puppet show for fucks sake.

therefore I will exit this discussion and claim victory whether you concede or not.
good for you.
i can see why your life is in the state that it is in.

[GreenEarthAl]

*sigh*

Relations: McEmpire (http://www.cafepress.com/amprosoft.18419795)

Relations: SMASH YOUR TV! (http://www.cafepress.com/amprosoft.41947602)

[Qdrop]

*sigh*

Relations: McEmpire (http://www.cafepress.com/amprosoft.18419795)

Relations: SMASH YOUR TV! (http://www.cafepress.com/amprosoft.41947602)

yeah, eventually i'm gonna buy those and read em.

i liked the first one you wrote....

[GreenEarthAl]

Chapter 1 (http://www.amprosoft.com/books/Relations/RelCh01.shtml)

:)

[Dorothy Wood]

well, it's hard to understand nonsense. and I'm not going to see your point when you aren't sure of the meaning of "good" and "evil", and continue to bring up that damned gazelle. "evil" is the motivation to destroy for no end other than the act of destruction. if the lion attacked the gazelle just for kicks, then maybe it could be perceived as "evil". the battle of good vs. evil shouldn't even be put into animal terms. if you're talking about morality, and animals don't act on morals, why even use them in an example?

I'm not going to wade through all the garbage you've typed to have you diagram your points for me because you haven't said anything worthwhile or on topic since you began.

i can see why your life is in the state that it is in.

and what state is that? and that applies how?

I can see why your life is in the state that it is in too. mediocre intellect = mediocre life. but you seem to be happy that way. you're a very happy person.

[Qdrop]

and I'm not going to see your point when you aren't sure of the meaning of "good" and "evil", oh, i'm quite confident of my assessments of both those philosophies.

and continue to bring up that damned gazelle. yeah, that gazelle that was KILLED for "good".
but you said killing was evil....uuuunless it was survival. then it's "good".

yeah, i'm the one who isn't sure of the meaning of good and evil.

"evil" is the motivation to destroy for no end other than the act of destruction. that so? and you're basing this on....?

if the lion attacked the gazelle just for kicks, then maybe it could be perceived as "evil".
exactly! PERCIEVED!

chimps have been documented killing members of thier own clan for no reason other than malicious murder. they single one member out and savagely kill them.
evil?

the battle of good vs. evil shouldn't even be put into animal terms. if you're talking about morality, and animals don't act on morals, why even use them in an example? to show how it is purely a HUMAN construct...not a universal truth.

[Dorothy Wood]

what's your fucking point?

I said death and destruction, for the sake of death and destruction is evil. I'm talking about the very basic definitions of good and evil here. you can keep trying to prove that evil isn't real or definable, but you could say that for anything intangible. nothing is completely tangible anyway, so what's the fucking point?

good and evil aren't philosophies. they just aren't. you can't see the forest for the trees.

[Dorothy Wood]

oh, i'm quite confident of my assessments of both those philosophies.

yeah, that gazelle that was KILLED for "good".
but you said killing was evil....uuuunless it was survival. then it's "good".

yeah, i'm the one who isn't sure of the meaning of good and evil.

that so? and you're basing this on....?


exactly! PERCIEVED!

chimps have been documented killing members of thier own clan for no reason other than malicious murder. they single one member out and savagely kill them.
evil?

to show how it is purely a HUMAN construct...not a universal truth.

the whole first part of this is all about animals again. animals are not humans, they are not capable of good or evil.

[Qdrop]

what's your fucking point?

I said death and destruction, for the sake of death and destruction is evil. I'm talking about the very basic definitions of good and evil here. you can keep trying to prove that evil isn't real or definable, but you could say that for anything intangible. nothing is completely tangible anyway, so what's the fucking point?

good and evil aren't philosophies. they just aren't. you can't see the forest for the trees.

ugh.
i give up.

it's easier to just yell at you for being a fluzzy...

[Qdrop]

the whole first part of this is all about animals again. animals are not humans, they are not capable of good or evil.

which PROVES that good and evil are not universal truths, but human constructs.
they exist only in our minds....just like utopia and dystopia....


Sarky, jesus fuck.....
just...enough. go flirt with a boy.

[Qdrop]

Qdrop is like a cat that chases its own tail, pointless.

in this case, yes....

i'm spinning around trying to explain something to Sarky (not even get her to agree, just understand), and she can't stop staring in the mirror with her own shallow understanding of the topic.




but fuck it, this is about fiction, literary and otherwise....
lets just get back on topic.

[Dorothy Wood]

if your whole point is that good and evil and utopia and dystopia are all human constructs, then that's pretty weak because it's a given.

good and evil were constructed to describe things that actually happen and exist. utopia was originally a title of a book that decribed a society that didn't really exist. good and evil are opposites, on purpose. utopia and dystopia are not opposites. therefore, the two sets can not be likened to one another.

yours is a very surface debate. I'm certainly not the one with a shallow understanding.

THE END

[Qdrop]

if your whole point is that good and evil and utopia and dystopia are all human constructs, then that's pretty weak because it's a given. yet it took you like 4 pages to get there.

utopia and dystopia are not opposites. but they are really used as such, idiot...hence the title of this thread that nuzz created.
how pretentious of you.

yours is a very surface debate. I'm certainly not the one with a shallow understanding.

THE END
certainly not.
ok sarky, you win. Ace said so.
you're very very smart.