i'm not going crazy, right?

[SobaViolence]

did i just hear Israel has invaded Lebanon?

i don't even want to look it up, i may snap and jump off a tall building...

[kaiser soze]

your correct, Hezbollah killed two Israeli soldiers

the middle east is on a one way street to a vicious meltdown

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/737634.html

[QueenAdrock]

UGGGAHAHHLERJEAOIRHESKJAHDCJKN (n) (n)

[SobaViolence]

jesus h. mohammed buddha shit.
humanity is fucked.

[fucktopgirl]

shit hit the fan!

[kaiser soze]

more like the shit has splattered from the fan

it hit it decades ago

[kaiser soze]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/12/D8IQO4SOO.html

Israel bombs Palestinian Foreign Ministry in Gaza. They will be dealing with two fronts, can they handle it alone?

[kaiser soze]

a quote from CNN

Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Dan Halutz told Israeli Channel 10 that "if the soldiers are not returned we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years."
Israel bombs a runway at Beruit International (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-07-13T032733Z_01_L136400_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-LEBANON-AIRPORT.xml)

what about civilian aircraft trying to land?

[drizl]

fucking israel...i cant believe the shit they pull. they are going to cause a fucking armeggedon in the mid east

[QueenAdrock]

I'm concerned. One of my friends' families is still in Lebanon. I know that she's Lebanese, but I thought they had all immigrated here. Turns out that's not the case. Her aunt was supposed to fly in today to see her and her family, but, well...I guess the airport/strip is completely fucked.

I really hope they're okay. :(

[Monsieur Decuts]

just last week I became the god father of a coworker who was baptised christian just before a trip to Beruit. She's been there one week. Now they've shut down the airports.
I'm terribly worried about her.

[Tone Capone]

a quote from CNN


Israel bombs a runway at Beruit International (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-07-13T032733Z_01_L136400_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-LEBANON-AIRPORT.xml)

what about civilian aircraft trying to land?

They are of course being re-routed... wtf do you think???

[Tone Capone]

fucking israel...i cant believe the shit they pull. they are going to cause a fucking armeggedon in the mid east

Because ALL of the blame belongs on them (and the West) right...:confused:
The terrorists knew what they were doing when they started this crap.

[DroppinScience]

I'm concerned. One of my friends' families is still in Lebanon. I know that she's Lebanese, but I thought they had all immigrated here. Turns out that's not the case. Her aunt was supposed to fly in today to see her and her family, but, well...I guess the airport/strip is completely fucked.

I really hope they're okay. :(

It really depends on where in Lebanon your friends' family comes from. As far as I'm aware, Israel is only invading a small portion in the south, right?

[QueenAdrock]

No idea where they're from. Either way, they're only invading part of the south now. Who knows where it'll go?

Plus, it really sucks that they're stuck there and CAN'T get out now. The airport's totally fux0red.

[Ace42X]

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but the US is to blame for this, and its because of Iraq. The US's recent invasions and occupations have sent out a message to the terrorists and extremists (Israel) that the international community finds this sort of behaviour acceptable.

[QueenAdrock]

No shit, but what's the point in pointing fingers of blame on what happened in the past? Nothing we can do about it now.

Edit: meaning we the people. I have no faith in our government to do what's right and pull out, regardless of who we elect.

[Ace42X]

No shit, but what's the point in pointing fingers of blame on what happened in the past? Nothing we can do about it now.

You may as well apply that to any crime. "The damage is done, can't be undone..."

The POINT is that when the issue is squared away, and retribution is allocated, not only will it deter future crimes against peace like this, not only will justice be served (an end in itself), but also it means the issue can be buried and we can work on bettering the world with a clean slate.

It is the lack of retribution for Vietnam and other US incursions, such as the first Gulf War, that has led to the situation now. Until blame is apportioned, and justice done, this criminality will persist.

As for what we can do, I'd say look to your constitution. Use your constitutional arms-bearing rights for what they were intended, rather than a load of paramilitirist nut-jobs running around the woods. I am increasingly of the opinion that the US will not get better without a revolution.

[Tone Capone]

zzz...(n)

[Tone Capone]

Is it the US's fault that they have been going at it for centuries? Even before there was an Israel??? Give me a freakin break...

[QueenAdrock]

It's not that the damage can't be undone. It's that it WON'T be undone.

And a revolution in America is NOT going to happen, no matter how much outsiders would like it to. Yeah, I've been told time and again "It only takes one person," which is total bullshit. The people who WANT a change in this country are those who are anti-war and probably also anti-gun/violence. The ones who are capable of starting a revolution are already fascists. So good luck with all that, cuz it's not gonna happen. Ever.

[Ace42X]

And a revolution in America is NOT going to happen, no matter how much outsiders would like it to. Yeah, I've been told time and again "It only takes one person," which is total bullshit. (...) So good luck with all that, cuz it's not gonna happen. Ever.

Welcome to 1984, then. Faits accomplis.

[Tone Capone]

Welcome to 1984, then. Faits accomplis.

Welcome to reality.

[SobaViolence]

reality is what we make it.
too bad every person who can make a decision is paid off by someone who had a result in mind.

[Pres Zount]

Is it the US's fault that they have been going at it for centuries? Even before there was an Israel??? Give me a freakin break...

Yeah israel has been invading lebanon for centuries, even before israel existed. Get over it.

[SobaViolence]

damn Philistines...
what about the Amalekites?
the Phoenicians?
the Samaritans?
the Canaanites?
the Sumerians?
the Amorites?
the Hittites?
or the Babylonians or the Assyrians?

blame doesn't get you anywhere.
but neither does violence.

the one thing the middle east needs is the one thing that is in short supply:
compassion.

[Qdrop]

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but the US is to blame for this, and its because of Iraq. The US's recent invasions and occupations have sent out a message to the terrorists and extremists (Israel) that the international community finds this sort of behaviour acceptable.

oh fuck you.

you are such an over-the-top american basher.

you say this shit so much you've just caricatured yourself into irrelevancy.

americans cause cancer and poverty and AIDS and crack....it's all because of us.

jealous, spoiled fuckin brit living off his mum and dads income.

[Qdrop]

It is the lack of retribution for Vietnam and other US incursions, such as the first Gulf War,


guess we should have just let Saddam march into Kwait?

keep shoveling shit....

[STANKY808]

guess we should have just let Saddam march into Kwait?



Ummmm... do you mean like this?

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America." (Saddam smiles)

From a transcript of a meeting between Ambassador Glaspie and Saddam on 25 July 1990 - before Iraq invaded Kuwait.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/april.html

[Qdrop]

Ummmm... do you mean like this?

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America." (Saddam smiles)

From a transcript of a meeting between Ambassador Glaspie and Saddam on 25 July 1990 - before Iraq invaded Kuwait.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/april.html

obviously, the ambassador did not truly represent our actual stance.

what, did we bait saddam, just so we could run after him once he invaded?
yeah, it's all just a big Tom Clancy novel.

[STANKY808]

Obviously the secretary of state was unaware of the stance as well? Was said stance a secret to just a select few in the government at the time? Are you suggesting the ambassador made a visit to Saddam without knowing the policy of the government for which she worked and as such told him that the US didn't care about this when in fact they did?

And I can't assign any motive to this as I don't have enough information about the decisions being made. However, this transcript is quite clear in that the official representative of the US government in Iraq told Saddam himself that the US had no interest in the conflict between Kuwait and Iraq. I mean I still can't see the sense in arming Saddam in the first place - but hey he was fighting Iran so I guess you gotta put your money on someone to win (?). The motivations behind a foreign policy based on support for the lesser of two (or more) evils still escapes me.

So, yeah, I'd say the USA did "just let Iraq march into Kuwait".

[Qdrop]

Obviously the secretary of state was unaware of the stance as well? Was said stance a secret to just a select few in the government at the time? Are you suggesting the ambassador made a visit to Saddam without knowing the policy of the government for which she worked and as such told him that the US didn't care about this when in fact they did?

And I can't assign any motive to this as I don't have enough information about the decisions being made. However, this transcript is quite clear in that the official representative of the US government in Iraq told Saddam himself that the US had no interest in the conflict between Kuwait and Iraq. I mean I still can't see the sense in arming Saddam in the first place - but hey he was fighting Iran so I guess you gotta put your money on someone to win (?). The motivations behind a foreign policy based on support for the lesser of two (or more) evils still escapes me.

So, yeah, I'd say the USA did "just let Iraq march into Kuwait".

telling a very tentative allie that you "don't care what he a Kuwait think of each other" is not the same saying "yeah, fuckin invade them, we're cool with it."

obviously, we weren't. as we went to war to push him back.
and if it's motives were to "induce" saddam into an act of aggression so we had an excuse to slice him up and invade his country...don't you find it odd that the first gulf war stopped at the edges of baghdad....the edges of Iraq really...and ended there.
we didn't invade Iraq, we didn't topple Saddam...and made no attempts to do so at those times.

so that kinda smashed any "induced war to secure invasion" tactics.

[STANKY808]

Fine - that's your take. I still find it incredible that something was not relayed to Iraq indicating there would be consequences. And again as a motive, since you want to speculate - perhaps the planners thought that by taking out as much of his military as possible would allow for an internal uprising to take out Saddam.

[TimDoolan]

Fuck Hezbollah. Those scumbags have had it coming for a long time.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/hezbollah/index.html

[Qdrop]

- perhaps the planners thought that by taking out as much of his military as possible would allow for an internal uprising to take out Saddam.

not a bad plan....

[valvano]

oh fuck you.

you are such an over-the-top american basher.

you say this shit so much you've just caricatured yourself into irrelevancy.

americans cause cancer and poverty and AIDS and crack....it's all because of us.

jealous, spoiled fuckin brit living off his mum and dads income.


ha ha ha ha ha

[kaiser soze]

Israeli warship rammed by Hezbollah explosive ladened umanned drone

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20060714-1603-mideastfighting.html

[D_Raay]

telling a very tentative allie that you "don't care what he a Kuwait think of each other" is not the same saying "yeah, fuckin invade them, we're cool with it."

obviously, we weren't. as we went to war to push him back.
and if it's motives were to "induce" saddam into an act of aggression so we had an excuse to slice him up and invade his country...don't you find it odd that the first gulf war stopped at the edges of baghdad....the edges of Iraq really...and ended there.
we didn't invade Iraq, we didn't topple Saddam...and made no attempts to do so at those times.

so that kinda smashed any "induced war to secure invasion" tactics.
You mean of course that it stopped because people started telling George the 1st that he would have a situation on his hands similar to what we are so lucky to have now?

Oh and reading anything else from we "don't care" what you do than what that phrase actually implies is specious reasoning at best, and more aptly quite moronic.

[QueenAdrock]

Yeah, if I remember correctly Cheney warned Bush I against going to Baghdad and said that it'd be a sticky quagmire, and gave a description of what would happen which closely mirrors what's happening today.

[Qdrop]

You mean of course that it stopped because people started telling George the 1st that he would have a situation on his hands similar to what we are so lucky to have now?

Yeah, if I remember correctly Cheney warned Bush I against going to Baghdad and said that it'd be a sticky quagmire, and gave a description of what would happen which closely mirrors what's happening today.

i see.
but THIS time cheney and the others just said "ah fuck it...let's go in."

specious reasoning indeed.

[D_Raay]

i see.
but THIS time cheney and the others just said "ah fuck it...let's go in."

specious reasoning indeed.
They thought he could still be an asset in the region in 91, so the risk outweighed the reward.

I said specious reasoning before because you gave the impression that these folks are like simple buffoons contemplating a liquor store job. I think it may be more complicated than that. The money machine can handle a flat tire or busted tail light; taking it into the shop though won't be tolerated.

[Qdrop]

They thought he could still be an asset in the region in 91, so the risk outweighed the reward. how so? explain...
because of his conflicts with Iran?
Oil?

what changed from 91 to 2003?

also, what changed in the minds of those that pushed and planned for aggressive invasion campaigns from 91 to 2003?
so, in 91..they thought it would be too chaotic to try and invade and occupy iraq...but in 2003 they thought the opposite?
what changed?

I said specious reasoning before because you gave the impression that these folks are like simple buffoons contemplating a liquor store job. I think it may be more complicated than that. agreed. it was in 91, just like it was/is in 2003+.

It seems implausibe that the US intentionally baited saddam to invaded Kuwait so we would have an excuse to take him down...because we did not do so. and seeing as how he had just INVADED another country, we certainly could have drummed up significant world support if we wanted to.
but we did not.
if it was because of certain value that saddam may yet have for us.....what changed by 2003?
and if it was pure invasion/occupation stategy issues that kept us from doing so....
why did that not stop us in 2003? many of the same people were ultimately involved....

i think there are other factors in both wars that are not known/being addressed....

[DroppinScience]

if it was because of certain value that saddam may yet have for us.....what changed by 2003?
and if it was pure invasion/occupation stategy issues that kept us from doing so....
why did that not stop us in 2003? many of the same people were ultimately involved....

I honestly haven't read too much on Cheney's stance on Iraq during 1991, but in the first Bush administration, there was pretty much a balance between the moderates and the warhawks. There was the desire to go into Iraq for the Gulf War, but the moderates had Bush I's ear and he decided to stop after making Iraq leave Kuwait. This pissed off the likes of Paul Wolfowitz and others.

But with the 2nd Bush administration, it's the warhawks who tipped the balance. Nobody was willing to listen to the moderates, so Dubya went ahead with the warhawks' ideas. And the rest is history...

[QueenAdrock]

This pissed off the likes of Paul Wolfowitz and others.

His name is both ferocious and Jewy.

[catatonic]

What's to expect as Bush has put Israel-Palestine on the turned-off backburner for years?

What's to expect of Israel as Hezbollah made an act of war against them... not retaliating to an act of war when you're surrounded by like 100 times the land area which is full of Muslims that talk about killing you constantly just would not be smart?

What's to expect of Americans? You know the quote where Bush says "Internets" and not "Internet". Well the other Internet is a mind control grid... how the hell do we rebel when we can't even want to rebel for more than enough time to post misguided posts that we know will fizzle out? I never want to rebel myself... is that me or the grid... beats me. Posts about it almost inevitably get deleted, but as no Congressman will answer my simple question of whether it will manipulate future elections, I'll post it all the same and see what they do. Plus they won't likely delete it for around two days.

And I'm confident the UK has a mind control grid too. Canada might actually and amazingly be free for the most part.

[D_Raay]

i think there are other factors in both wars that are not known/being addressed....

That's exactly the point Q. It's unfortunate but we just don't know for sure.

Let's keep the absolutes out of it for the time being. I'll admit I am speculating.
Just seems logical to think that something stayed George sr.'s hand that was not in play come 2003.

Maybe Saddam was done being a check to Iran.

[Ace42X]

What changed between the first Gulf war and the more recent ventures was the administration's blasé attitude to public opinion.

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-crime.htm

Before they would've been worried by the media, the voters, accusations of war-crimes. After pissing all over the previous elections, etc etc, and Iraq the second time, they knew they could do anything and get away with it.

It comes back to what I said earlier, every single evil the US government has perpetrated has been increasingly rhetoricised down to the point where they have been given free reign to do whatever the hell they choose. And the other nations are learning this too.

[D_Raay]

What changed between the first Gulf war and the more recent ventures was the administration's blasé attitude to public opinion.

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-crime.htm

Before they would've been worried by the media, the voters, accusations of war-crimes. After pissing all over the previous elections, etc etc, and Iraq the second time, they knew they could do anything and get away with it.

It comes back to what I said earlier, every single evil the US government has perpetrated has been increasingly rhetoricised down to the point where they have been given free reign to do whatever the hell they choose. And the other nations are learning this too.
I firmly believe this. I have been thinking that for years now.

[Tone Capone]

oh fuck you.

you are such an over-the-top american basher.

you say this shit so much you've just caricatured yourself into irrelevancy.

americans cause cancer and poverty and AIDS and crack....it's all because of us.

jealous, spoiled fuckin brit living off his mum and dads income.


That's a little something I like to call FACE!!!!(y)

[catatonic]

I'm surprised my post hasn't been deleted yet, so here it is again.

What's to expect as Bush has put Israel-Palestine on the turned-off backburner for years?

What's to expect of Israel as Hezbollah made an act of war against them... not retaliating to an act of war when you're surrounded by like 100 times the land area which is full of Muslims that talk about killing you constantly just would not be smart?

What's to expect of Americans? You know the quote where Bush says "Internets" and not "Internet". Well the other Internet is a mind control grid... how the hell do we rebel when we can't even want to rebel for more than enough time to post misguided posts that we know will fizzle out? I never want to rebel myself... is that me or the grid... beats me. Posts about it almost inevitably get deleted, but as no Congressman will answer my simple question of whether it will manipulate future elections, I'll post it all the same and see what they do. Plus they won't likely delete it for around two days.

And I'm confident the UK has a mind control grid too. Canada might actually and amazingly be free for the most part.