How did the US become so "anti-spanking"?

[Qdrop]

I don't get this shit...

when did American culture ( i have no idea how it is in other countries) decide that spanking young children or adolescents was "uncivilized"?

If your 3 year old runs out into the street, why is it "wrong" to grab them, smack them on the ass, and say "don't EVER do that AGAIN! or you will get another spanking!"...
you can't sit there and have a rational conversation with your 3 year old about the danger of playing in the street...until they can fully understand situations around them, you need to keep them safe with fear if necessary.

if my future 5 year old refuses to pick up their toys, and then calls me "stupid" when i tell them again....i will grab them by the wrist, spin them around and smack them on the ass....it will hurt. they will cry. they will likely think twice before refusing to do what i tell them or before calling their father "stupid".
it worked for me, it will likely work for them.

when did parents start getting this pretentious air about them when saying "oh, we don't spank our children"....as if spanking was some form of archaic torture that only backwards rednecks engage in because they haven't read enough parenting books to "bargain" with their children to please not dump their dinner on the couch and draw pictures with it.

you should never "ask" your children to do what you and society require of them.
you should never "bargain" with your children to keep peace in the house.


and it's not like i think spanking fixes everything....or turns asshole kids into angels.
nor do i think that spanking (spanking, not beating or abuse) turns kids into future violent bullies or animal sadomizers.

actually, much of the latest research on behavior, genetics, and parenting actually displays some rather disheartening discoveries: children's behavior and future behavior has much more to do with genetics and there social circle then with their domestic rearing.
assholes are born assholes. angels are born angels.

none-the-less....
things like rules, boundaries, social etiquette, and SAFETY must be enforced with young children, particularly when they are too young to truly rationalize with.
it is not "backwards" for your children to behave under the fear of punishment...providing they later understand the logic behind such behavior and no longer need punishment to compel them (a level most of us get to naturally).

I will spank my children when they get out of line.

and if someone says "my, your children are well behaved"....i will reply "thank you, i spank them when they get out of line."... and i will be proud of it.

[The Notorious LOL]

because the idealistic ass hippies of the 60s had children and went for all these crackpot ways of controlling your kids....trying to reason with a 4 year old and shit, telling them they'll get a time out. Fuck that shit, when I was a kid if I did something way out of line my ass got fuckin spanked and I didnt do it again.

[milleson]

Holy fuck!?!

Did Qdrop just post something I agree with?


I spank my kids, but only when they deserve it.

Safety infractions earn insta-spankings; running into the street, refusing to hold hands in a parking lot, stuff like that.

They can also earn a spanking by being a repeat offender.

Mom: Don't throw toys
Kid: *tosses toy across the room*
Mom: Once more and its a spanking
Kid: *tosses toy*
Mom: Hold still. This might hurt a bit.

[Qdrop]

Holy fuck!?!

Did Qdrop just post something I agree with?


I spank my kids, but only when they deserve it.

Safety infractions earn insta-spankings; running into the street, refusing to hold hands in a parking lot, stuff like that.

They can also earn a spanking by being a repeat offender.

Mom: Don't throw toys
Kid: *tosses toy across the room*
Mom: Once more and its a spanking
Kid: *tosses toy*
Mom: Hold still. This might hurt a bit.

have other parents ever given you grief for doing so?

are you ever afraid of having some nosey activist bitch call child-protective services on your if they see you spank them?

[fucktopgirl]

Yea, i did get spanked too...And at one point when my father was raising his voice it was enought to understand, we did not required a spank no more! And i remember that i did had Cold shower, oh yea, just 2 time but fuck do i remember them....worst!

I did spank Alix a bit but it was not really helpfull as she was spanking me back and was more frustrated :D ; i have to talk with her , try to make her undertsand things and an extreme case will be to make some punishement like " if you dont undertsand well there will be no more this or that( swimming, sleeping late... special stuff) " , get her in to her room make her think about the situation . But rarely i had to do the sherif, she is a pretty sweet and wise little girl so...

Anyway , spanking is not a crime against humanity and it is a pretty natural instinct to do it!

Are you jail in the states if you get caught doing it or something?

[milleson]

If things get heated (trantrums and shit), I will always remove my kids from the situation immediately. Normally, we take things outside and have a conversation about what went wrong.

If they need instant attitude adjustment, I'm not above dishing out a thump to the head. It gets their attention, and they get over it real quick like.

I couldn't give two shits about what other parents think of my discipline techniques. My kids normally behave in public, they know better, so I don't really worry about being called out.

[Loppfessor]

OH YEA,

WELL HERE'S WHAT HAPPENS IN MY HOUSE WHEN YOU SPILL PAINT ON THE GARAGE FLOOR!!!


'BOUT THE SIZE OF A CIGAR,

DO I STUTTER???


BAAAAHAAAAHAAA!!!!!!! Classic

[Bob]

i think the problem is that it teaches children at a young age that violence is an acceptable response to misbehavior (is that a word? can i nounify misbehave?). i mean you can't exactly reason with a child the same way you can an adult, but it's also probably not cool to teach them that it's ok to hit people when they do things you don't want them to do.

kind of ironic that it would be the US that would be the most anti-spankingest country in the world, though, if that's true

[Qdrop]

If things get heated (trantrums and shit), I will always remove my kids from the situation immediately. Normally, we take things outside and have a conversation about what went wrong.

If they need instant attitude adjustment, I'm not above dishing out a thump to the head. It gets their attention, and they get over it real quick like.

I couldn't give two shits about what other parents think of my discipline techniques. My kids normally behave in public, they know better, so I don't really worry about being called out.

you know you're becoming a rare breed?

but i will count myself among you with pride.

[Qdrop]

this rant was brought on by watching Lucky Louie last night.
His 5year old kid was a complete asshole....and instead of spanking her....he tried and failed with timeouts and "rationalizing"....so he then sat down next to her and apologized for not being a good father.

apologized to his asshole-brat daughter.

then both parents gave up in the end.

that is how anti-spanking our culture is now.

[bigblu89]

Q, did you watch last night's Lucky Louie on HBO?

[bigblu89]

Well, there you go.

[Qdrop]

Q, did you watch last night's Lucky Louie on HBO?

yeah, me and jenny were fuckin screaming at the TV.

[Bob]

this rant was brought on by watching Lucky Louie last night.
His 5year old kid was a complete asshole....and instead of spanking her....he tried and failed with timeouts and "rationalizing"....so he then sat down next to her and apologized for not being a good father.

apologized to his asshole-brat daughter.

then both parents gave up in the end.

that is how anti-spanking our culture is now.

i hear ya, i do hear ya, but still, it just seems like there ought to be a way to get through to kids outside of hitting them. nuts if i know what it is, but surely there's something.

[milleson]

i think the problem is that it teaches children at a young age that violence is an acceptable response to misbehavior (is that a word? can i nounify misbehave?). i mean you can't exactly reason with a child the same way you can an adult, but it's also probably not cool to teach them that it's ok to hit people when they do things you don't want them to do.

kind of ironic that it would be the US that would be the most anti-spankingest country in the world, though, if that's true


Bob, you are very right. Sort of.

We never spank the kids as a knee-jerk response to bad behavior. I think that perpetuates the bad behavior/physical violence cycle.

But on the other hand, you can't simply have a 3 year old who likes to dart into traffic or who purposefully ignores parental authority.

[adam_f]

The fact that people actually watch "Lucky Louie" should be the source of the outcry.

[fucktopgirl]

kind of ironic that it would be the US that would be the most anti-spankingest country in the world, though, if that's true


indeed....no spanking but they will teach them to bomb properly!:D

[Qdrop]

i hear ya, i do hear ya, but still, it just seems like there ought to be a way to get through to kids outside of hitting them. nuts if i know what it is, but surely there's something.


this is the exact disconnect i am speaking of....

why should there be an alternative to spanking?
what is your rationale that spanking a child when they throw a tantrum is teaching them to respond with violence when met with an obstacle, as opposed to it teaching them that "acting in this manner in public society is not acceptable and will result in punishment".

i was spanked when i misbehaved to an extreme degree....yet i rarely ever resort to violence in my life...i've probably done it only a handful at times at most.

bob, seriously...you CANNOT rationalize with small children...it's not their fault....they just don't mentally function on that level.
while i don't have children yet...i had a young sister (we are 10 years apart) and many many young cousins much younger than me that I babysat, and had a front row seat in watching their parents raise them.
that does not make me any kind of expert....
but i can safely say that none of them (and they were ALL spanked) grew up to use violence to bully thier way around life.

[monkey]

the reason for the "anti-spanking" movement is that some parents don't know when to stop. it's a question of where does one draw the line, is one bruise ok but 2 too many? it's a problem where the adult takes advantage of his/her strength and position and the government stepped in and said "hitting children at all is bad" and made kids who were being hit (either big time or the occasional spank) responsible for calling the cops on their parents. but there's a difference between the parent that spanks the child for being stupid and disobeying and hitting the child till he's black and blue for a similar offense.

i dont think people should hit their children. but there is nothing wrong with installing the fear of the belt on them. i grew up with the fear of the belt (and the wooden spoon). i could probably count on one hand how many times my mom may have spanked me, but i grew up afraid of her and any object she may grab to fling my way. it's the parental resposibility to make the kids fear you a bit, to know that the parent rules and the parent will rule any way they have to. without bruises, if possible.

[Bob]

i dunno, maybe i'm getting spanking confused with beating.

i don't have any studies or anything, if that's what you're after, maybe it's more of a personal thing, but i don't feel right resorting to physical punishment. i'm not suggesting that children should be reasoned with instead of punished, their minds aren't developed yet, they don't have a faculty of reason, rationalizing won't work, not by itself at least. i'm just suggesting that there are other ways to punish a child than hitting them. punish, then explain why they've been punished.

as to why there OUGHT to be an alternative to spanking, i dunno, i guess i don't have an answer to that. i guess it's a personal thing, it doesn't feel right to me. i'm not saying that everyone that gets spanked turns into a violent person (that's obviously not true), i'm just saying it might not help, i dunno.

[Qdrop]

it's the parental resposibility to make the kids fear you a bit, to know that the parent rules and the parent will rule any way they have to. without bruises, if possible.

i completely agree.

[fucktopgirl]

urm ,a kid is able to reason and rationnalise... really what is the crap with the brain/ mind not fully developped , you guys are in a total state of delusion.

Let 's put it this way ,when they are big enought to be spanked , they are big enought to comprehend stuff... Speaking in a loud voice and acting mad can be as efficient then a spank!

Anyway, this is just MY experience with my daughter !

[Qdrop]

i think that's the other contraversey though: how much is too much?

while there are plenty of people who think spanking on the bottom or a smack on the hand is abuse...most just frown upon it smugly.

but what about smacking on the top of the head?
what about your mother smacking you across the face if you called her a bitch?
abuse?

leaving a bruise on there butt?


who's to say what's too much?
everyone THINKS is just common sense...but a quick conversation with a few people will quickly show you that many people have very differant benchmarks...

the american culture once had little issue with a father punching his kid in the head or whipping him with a belt.....it was actually looked upon as a favorable and NECESSARY practice.
and you can't find any evidence to show children of the 50's (for example) are more violent than children of the 90's...
in fact, i think you'd find the OPPOSITE to be true....
if anything... it'd probably be easier to connect less spanking with more violent behavior nowadays...(though such a connection would likely be bullshit as are most social studies of that nature).

[Lo_Lyfe]

A good, solid crack on the ass = Acceptable
A smack to the back of the hand = Acceptable
A "thump to the head" = Abuse

Sorry Milleson, You don't hit your kids in the head, PERIOD.
the fuck is you? if they're not your seeds, shut the fuck up.

[Bob]

i think that's the other contraversey though: how much is too much?

while there are plenty of people who think spanking on the bottom or a smack on the hand is abuse...most just frown upon it smugly.

but what about smacking on the top of the head?
what about your mother smacking you across the face if you called her a bitch?
abuse?

leaving a bruise on there butt?


who's to say what's too much?
everyone THINKS is just common sense...but a quick conversation with a few people will quickly show you that many people have very differant benchmarks...

the american culture once had little issue with a father punching his kid in the head or whipping him with a belt.....it was actually looked upon as a favorable and NECESSARY practice.
and you can't find any evidence to show children of the 50's (for example) are more violent than children of the 90's...
in fact, i think you'd find the OPPOSITE to be true....
if anything... it'd probably be easier to connect less spanking with more violent behavior nowadays...(though such a connection would likely be bullshit as are most social studies of that nature).

and of course there's more to abuse than just physical abuse. there's emotional abuse too, how are you meant to avoid that? it's a fine line and nobody agrees upon where it is. plus it's different from child to child, no doubt.

i'm not looking forward to being a parent (i'm not particularly planning on it, either, for the moment)

[Lo_Lyfe]

hittin a dumb kid when it does something wrong is basic cause and effect shit. for every action, so on. it doesn't need to teach them to solve problems with violence, if you don't use it to gain control for the sake of control. think of the abuse you dump on a kid by not giving them an understanding of this bitch-ass world?

[SobaViolence]

shame works better than spanking.

[Qdrop]

shame works better than spanking.

according to who?

[Lo_Lyfe]

shame works better than spanking.
people argue shame creates sexual deviancy.

[SobaViolence]

spanking creates deviancy as well. so there.

[alexandra]

you guys are in a total state of delusion.
i absolutely love when you say this <3


i think comso once said that there's nothing worse than a pair of disappointing eyes (or something like that), and i have to agree. not sure it would work on hyperactive kids tho'...

[Echewta]

Spanking is pretty lame. I'm the only kid in my family who didn't get spanked or belted. I'm straight as an arrow though i'm sure Cosmo and Boom'n would have wished that I would have been spanked at an early age for bad jokes. I never learned that lesson. Anyways, if you think that striking a child is a way to teach a lesson or to have your way, go for it. Video tape yourself doing it and take a look at your facial expression. Ahhh the love. It not out of anger but just to teach a child a lesson? Uh huh.

Spanking=hitting=striking=pain. Its all the same.

No I dont have children, just helped raise 5 brothers and sisters.

[Knuckles]

I try to solve all of my problems without using violence.

[Lo_Lyfe]

disappointing eyes. fuck outta here. you do wrong, you reap the consequence, until you know better. once bitten blah blah blah.

[Qdrop]

Spanking is pretty lame. I'm the only kid in my family who didn't get spanked or belted. I'm straight as an arrow though i'm sure Cosmo and Boom'n would have wished that I would have been spanked at an early age for bad jokes. I never learned that lesson. Anyways, if you think that striking a child is a way to teach a lesson or to have your way, go for it. Video tape yourself doing it and take a look at your facial expression. Ahhh the love. It not out of anger but just to teach a child a lesson? Uh huh.

Spanking=hitting=striking=pain. Its all the same.

No I dont have children, just helped raise 5 brothers and sisters.

do you believe that virtually all instances of parental spanking throughout history have been acts of abuse as well....
and society is only now seeing it as the moral infraction that it is....like sexism and racism?

how would you stop a 3 year old from running into the street?
what if he laughed and giggled when you tried to explain it to him? and thought it was a game?

what would hurt more...a spanking or a buick at 50mph?
rhetorical....
but which method would you trust more to keep the child out of the street...talking or fear of pain?

you really think that all parental spankings are just acts of abusive anger on the part of the parent?
"tough love" is a rationalization of liking to abuse your kids for egotistical purposes?

would you call child-protective services on a parent if you saw them slap thier kid on the ass in public?

[Qdrop]

I try to solve all of my problems without using violence.

well i think that's the understood motto of most parents.

while many like to truck out anectodotes of supposed abusive parents they knew of that would hit first and ask question never....
most parents look to other methods prior to spanking...
unless safety is involved and fear must be used to ensure their safety until their minds understand otherwise.

[Bob]

what would hurt more...a spanking or a buick at 50mph?
rhetorical....
but which method would you trust more to keep the child out of the street...talking or fear of pain?

see, here's where i think we're hitting an impasse, you seem to be arguing as though those are the only two options. i'm just saying that there are other forms of punishment that can be carried out.

it's the fact that i can't name any that makes me worthless in this debate

[Yeti]

I can remember my Mom using a wood paddle to spank my arse. I got bigger and eventually took it out of her hand and spanked her. My Dad found out and started choking me.
I am going to be a Dad soon and plan to use positive reinforcement. I plan to talk with my son about life and if he misbehaves I will raise my voice. I am big guy and if I maintain an even keel I believe it will work. I see parents constantly raising their voice to kids. I plan to change my tone on rare occasions. We will see how it all works out when he arrives.

[Bob]

i honestly can't remember if i was spanked or not. i don't think i was. i really don't remember.

i was a good kid though, i seem to have a natural fear of authority in me. i did what they said for the hell of it. i guess i still kinda do.

[Qdrop]

see, here's where i think we're hitting an impasse, you seem to be arguing as though those are the only two options. i'm just saying that there are other forms of punishment that can be carried out.

it's the fact that i can't name any that makes me worthless in this debate

sure there are other options....my point is what would you trust more, considering the possible consequence of them repeating the offense.

running into the street, reaching for things on the stove, playing on old farm equipment in the field, going into a strangers house, throwing rocks at cars as they drive by....
things like this can have critical consequences...ones that you may not get a second chance to teach them....

i'm sorry, I but will not use logical friendly talks or timeouts or taking toys away to stop my young kid from reaching for hot grease on a stove or running into the street. THAT would be poor parenting.

[Qdrop]

i honestly can't remember if i was spanked or not. i don't think i was. i really don't remember.

i was a good kid though, i seem to have a natural fear of authority in me. i did what they said for the hell of it. i guess i still kinda do.

me too.

and that really is the large % of a kids behavior- genes.
alot of parents don't like to hear that....but that doesn't make it less true.

[Bob]

sure there are other options....my point is what would you trust more, considering the possible consequence of them repeating the offense.

running into the street, reaching for things on the stove, playing on old farm equipment in the field, going into a strangers house, throwing rocks at cars as they drive by....
things like this can have critical consequences...ones that you may not get a second chance to teach them....

i'm sorry, I but will not use logical friendly talks or timeouts or taking toys away to stop my young kid from reaching for hot grease on a stove or running into the street. THAT would be poor parenting.

only if those things didn't work. for me, that was enough. my parents didn't have to spank me, for me, a stern talking to was enough. i was docile and i respected them, so i did what they said. if i were a tougher kid, maybe they'd have had to spank me, who can say? as it was, it wasn't necessary. i understand the reluctance to take chances with important things like that, but i still don't think it's necessary to go immediately to spanking. it depends on the temperament of the child. if they laugh at you as you yell at them, well then yeah, i could see resorting to spanking if there's nothing else left to try.

and also, if you spank too often, do you think it loses its effect? eventually, the child might just go "oh boy, another spanking, let's get this over with so i can go back to stoning cars". where do you go from there, when spanking stops working?

[Knuckles]

unless safety is involved and fear must be used to ensure their safety until their minds understand otherwise.

You might be surprised at just how much a two/three year old understands. I have found that my son does really well when I explain a dangerous situation to him. Sometimes he forgets things but my wife and I are always right there to remind him.

When he does right we never forget to compliment him. "Nice job buddy! You remembered to grab my hand before we crossed the streeet! You are the man!"

[Qdrop]

Anyways, if you think that striking a child is a way to teach a lesson or to have your way, go for it. Video tape yourself doing it and take a look at your facial expression. Ahhh the love. It not out of anger but just to teach a child a lesson? Uh huh.


i'd like to compare that to a video of grown man trying to explain the logical dangers of running into the street or throwing rocks at susan, to a 3 year old while he squirms and looks out the window and ask for some juice....
yeah, he's totally connecting with what you're saying....
he'll never do THAT again....

[Yeti]

You might be surprised at just how much a two/three year old understands. I have found that my son does really well when I explain a dangerous situation to him. Sometimes he forgets things but my wife and I are always right there to remind him.

When he does right we never forget to compliment him. "Nice job buddy! You remembered to grab my hand before we crossed the streeet! You are the man!"

Knuckles, will you be my kid's Dad?

[ms.peachy]

I'm not in favour of spanking. I'm not saying it can never be used ot be effective, only that I can't see myself ever doing it. If a child is old enough to learn cause and effect consequences, then they are old enough to understand a strong tone of voice. To use that example of running out into traffic, my response would be to get down on her level, hold her firmly by the shoulders and say very clearly, crossly and loudly "You do NOT let go of mommy's hand when we are crossing, EVER." (Or wahtever seems appropriate for the circumstance.) And then have her repeat it back to me. A child of 3 would be developmentally capable of registering the fact that the parent is angry as a result of their action. I don't think spanking is appropriate in that circumstance at all, because the child isn't being naughty, she's just acting impulsively - like a child will do. So I really don't think a physical response is appropriate; it would just be being a bit of a bully.

[Echewta]

i'd like to compare that to a video of grown man trying to explain the logical dangers of running into the street or throwing rocks at susan, to a 3 year old while he squirms and looks out the window and ask for some juice....
yeah, he's totally connecting with what you're saying....
he'll never do THAT again....

So you hit him/her to get their attention? What you are saying is that you can't reason with a three year old about going into the street but somehow if you spank the child and yell at them not to go into the street, that does work. I don't get it. If the child can't reason that it shouldn't go in the street regardless of how you reenforce it verbally, one kid is more screwed than the other. One is thinking about juice and the other has just be hit by their parent.

[TurdBerglar]

i see nothing wrong with spanking. it annoys the hell out of my when a parent is in my store and their kid is acting up doing the whole laying down on the floor thing and stomping it's feet. meanwhile the parent is trying to reason with them. "joeseph. why are you doing this. this is so unlike you(looks around with a very embarrassed face). you can't get the macaroni and cheese with the dinosaurs. we already have some at home. stop this! why joseph why?". and it's always a white yuppy motherfucker. and from my experiences with going to school in a prepped out yuppy town these kids had much less love and repsect for their parents. they all seemed to think their parents were pushovers and didn't deserve any respect. kids from urban areas get spankings much more than kids from suburban areas. and those kids in my experiences have always had more love and respect for their parents. you never here a preppy guy going on about his mom, right? pussy ass parents. kids think you're an jackass now.

[Knuckles]

Knuckles, will you be my kid's Dad?
No, I think you are gonna do just fine on your own :D ...


I might consider adopting you and being his grandfather.

[Lo_Lyfe]

I'm not in favour of spanking. I'm not saying it can never be used ot be effective, only that I can't see myself ever doing it. If a child is old enough to learn cause and effect consequences, then they are old enough to understand a strong tone of voice. To use that example of running out into traffic, my response would be to get down on her level, hold her firmly by the shoulders and say very clearly, crossly and loudly "You do NOT let go of mommy's hand when we are crossing, EVER." (Or wahtever seems appropriate for the circumstance.) And then have her repeat it back to me. A child of 3 would be developmentally capable of registering the fact that the parent is angry as a result of their action. I don't think spanking is appropriate in that circumstance at all, because the child isn't being naughty, she's just acting impulsively - like a child will do. So I really don't think a physical response is appropriate; it would just be being a bit of a bully.
wait and see lady

[Qdrop]

i understand the reluctance to take chances with important things like that, but i still don't think it's necessary to go immediately to spanking. it depends on the temperament of the child. if they laugh at you as you yell at them, well then yeah, i could see resorting to spanking if there's nothing else left to try. yeah, i guess the temperment of the child would play a role.
if my kid was truly just a push over who only needed a stern voice to get results...i'd probably never resort to spanking...

but with stuff as critial as health and safety....
man...i just couldn't bare to be looking at a coffin or a scar or some consequence equally as horrendous and saying "well, at least i never spanked him"...
i know i'm being dramatic....but that shit happens every day.
would spanking have helped?
who's to say....


and also, if you spank too often, do you think it loses its effect? eventually, the child might just go "oh boy, another spanking, let's get this over with so i can go back to stoning cars". where do you go from there, when spanking stops working?
oh definately.
spanking should be a last resort in most cases....and if you really play the drama up well...you may only have to resort to the FEAR of spanking in the future...
when kids are very young (like under 6 or so)....it's not about causing them pain...it's just the ACT of spanking that scares them and makes them cry.

and even when they're older....if you only use the "angry violent spanking" card rarely....it will have more effect when you do have to pull it....or just threaten to pull it.
it's FAR more psychological than it is actual physical pain.

make no mistake, you are minipulating your kids with fear and general psychology.....but if your intentions are true.....it's all good.

[Knuckles]

i see nothing wrong with spanking.


The thing that is wrong with spanking is that it teaches a child you can control someone's actions by using physical force/inflicting pain.

[TurdBerglar]

well you can, can't you?

[Echewta]

But that kid crying and lying on the grocery store floor. Is that a product of bad parenting or lack of spanking? Can you only be a good parent if you were to crack your kid for doing that?

I've talked shit to parents before in public when I've thought they've been wrong to their kid. Grabbing their kid by the arm, lifting them up with it and smacking their ass saying "shut the fuck up" and the kid is 4? "Nice job!"

[Knuckles]

does that make it right Turd?

[TurdBerglar]

But that kid crying and lying on the grocery store floor. Is that a product of bad parenting or lack of spanking? Can you only be a good parent if you were to crack your kid for doing that?

I've talked shit to parents before in public when I've thought they've been wrong to their kid. Grabbing their kid by the arm, lifting them up with it and smacking their ass saying "shut the fuck up" and the kid is 4? "Nice job!"


doesn't matter on parenting if a kid does that.

[Yeti]

No, I think you are gonna do just fine on your own :D ...


I might consider adopting you and being his grandfather.


OK, Papa. Spanking is so pedestrian. Being a good parent is all about communication. Having fun with lessons in life and the difference with right and wrong. Most parents are so busy with bullshit they don't take the time to sit down and talk/play with their kid. I plan to have a lesson night (words and their meaning--good vs evil--race relations---etc), a entertainment night (create a play--sing a song--etc), stuff like that. Kids like to be taught, engaged and enlightened not smacked on the back of the head.
I agree that corporal punishment is up to the parent but I'm not in the military so these guns won't be blazin on my kid.

[TurdBerglar]

does that make it right Turd?


it doesn't make it wrong. it's life.

[Qdrop]

To use that example of running out into traffic, my response would be to get down on her level, hold her firmly by the shoulders and say very clearly, crossly and loudly "You do NOT let go of mommy's hand when we are crossing, EVER." (Or wahtever seems appropriate for the circumstance.) And then have her repeat it back to me. if that truly has the psychological impact you think necessary to stop from ever doing so....then i guess that sounds appropriate.
but what if it didn't?
what if next time, a car IS coming?

what if your kid is a bit of bugger, and laughs when you grab her on the shoulder?
what then?
you couldn't POSSIBLY think your words will have the reaction you hoped for now...

A child of 3 would be developmentally capable of registering the fact that the parent is angry as a result of their action. I don't think spanking is appropriate in that circumstance at all, because the child isn't being naughty, she's just acting impulsively - like a child will do. yeah, and a logical talk won't train them to behave differantly.
when you are dealing with kids under 4 or so...you really NEED some pav lav conditioning at first.

[Echewta]

doesn't matter on parenting if a kid does that.

So its just a kid being natural. If the kid lived on his/her own and got parents that day that happened to take the kid to the grocery store for the first time ever, the kid would naturally want mac and cheese with dinosaurs to spill from the pantry and would kick and scream on the grocery store floor in front of you to get it?

That doesn't make any sense.

[Yeti]

QDrop--you won't spank your kid and I will bet on it. His or her head will be so filled with information they won't be able to lift their little head off their pillow to get out of bed.

[Echewta]

So is this about a kid going in the street all the time and needing to be spanked or a kid doing it for the first time and getting spanked?

[Echewta]

(!) QDrop--you won't spank your kid and I will bet on it. His or her head will be so filled with information they won't be able to lift their little head off their pillow to get out of bed.

*giggle* *snurfle* *snicker*

[ms.peachy]

wait and see lady
I'm not saying I will never ever give her a slap on the hand if, say, she was repeatedly grabbing things from another child after being warned, etc. But I just don't see full-on spanking as an appropriate form of discipline.

[Bob]

yeah, and a logical talk won't train them to behave differantly.
when you are dealing with kids under 4 or so...you really NEED some pavlov conditioning at first.

i think you need both. definitely some conditioning is necessary to teach them what to do (and not to do), but simultaneously you ought to try to explain to them why to do it (or not to do it). for young children, correcting the behavior should be the primary thing, yeah, but you should also at least make an attempt to explain why what they've done is wrong. if they don't know they don't know, but they should learn something from it.

[TurdBerglar]

So its just a kid being natural. If the kid lived on his/her own and got parents that day that happened to take the kid to the grocery store for the first time ever, the kid would naturally want mac and cheese with dinosaurs to spill from the pantry and would kick and scream on the grocery store floor in front of you to get it?

That doesn't make any sense.

you mean to tell me that kids don't want shit they can't have and throw tantrums when they can't have it?


kids do the same shit when they can't get what they want when they are alone. if they are doing some task and they can't complete it they still have a fit. you've never heard a kid scream at the nintendo when he's all alone in the living room? shit even adults do that.

[Yeti]

the kid would naturally want mac and cheese with dinosaurs

There is mac and cheese with dinosaurs? Fuckin A (y)

[Qdrop]

echewta....you truly don't think the a parent has a SOCAIL RESPONSIBLITY to keep thier child from acting like a fuckin asshole in a grocery store?
or to teach them that there will always be people that they MUST respect....
when they are young,these people can spank them...when they older, these people can fail them...older still, they can fire or arrest you.

kids must learn that there are bounderies in society and social structures they just can't breach.
and no...spanking them does not teach them that they can just break those boundries with violence....it teaches them HIERARCHY...which is crucially imporant in society.
a child VERY quickly realizes that a parent hitting a child is NOT the same as two adults getting a fight in the street to bully thier way around.

[Randetica]

my mum wooden spooned my ass, my dad yelled and said lots of rude shit to me

well now look at me
im totally phucked
my self esteem is so fucking low that i cant even leave home

[Lo_Lyfe]

good thing is the people most willing to try other methds actually have children.

[Echewta]

you mean to tell me that kids don't want shit they can't have and throw tantrums when they can't have it?
And are you telling me all kids do this? You've never seen a kid behave themselves somehow in a public place? They all throw tantrums when they can't have something? What if that kid throwing the tantrum has been out with their parent all freaking day locked up in a car and going shopping? The kid needs a serious nap and can't get one because mom or dad had to go to Bloomys? Is that the kids fault or the parents?

You never know why the kid is acting like they are. Its not always their fault.

[Yeti]

I see 2 things in the grocery.

Kids running amock and the parent yelling NO! NO! NO!
They are usually Moms and they look like they just came from the Country Club. I imagine they go thru the motions of parenting never really talking with the kid eye to eye.

Kids getting smacked or slammed down in the grocery cart by some angry parent. Usually it is a man and he looks like he is a construction worker. I always want to grab the kid and put him up to the guy's face and use the kid's small little fists to pummel his face until it is bloody or scarred.

Kids that behave and are smiling. These parents look like they talk with their kids. These parents probably take time to teach their kids values, manners and take their kid to the park and not leave their kids in front of a TV.

My brothers are polar opposites. My older brother and his wife are always busy and never take their kids anywhere. They pawn them off to the in-laws any chance they get. The kids yell, scream and don't get along with other kids. They are a real handful.

My younger brother and his wife take their kids to the park.They teach and talk to the kids. They enjoy being parents while my older brother and his wife just seem bothered by being parents.

[Echewta]

and no...spanking them does not teach them that they can just break those boundries with violence....it teaches them HIERARCHY...which is crucially imporant in society.
a child VERY quickly realizes that a parent hitting a child is NOT the same as two adults getting a fight in the street to bully thier way around.

A child can very quickly realize the above but needs to be spanked not to go into the street? I'm confussed on the logic train that children have. So when you are telling a three year old that you shouldn't cross the street and the kid is staring out the window wanting juice AND they are thinking about how getting spanked is much different than two adults getting in a fight in the street to bully their way around?

[TurdBerglar]

And are you telling me all kids do this? You've never seen a kid behave themselves somehow in a public place? They all throw tantrums when they can't have something? What if that kid throwing the tantrum has been out with their parent all freaking day locked up in a car and going shopping? The kid needs a serious nap and can't get one because mom or dad had to go to Bloomys? Is that the kids fault or the parents?

You never know why the kid is acting like they are. Its not always their fault.


did i ever say all? i bet you did at least a few times. kids throw tantrums that's one of the things that makes young humans kids.

[Echewta]

Dude I was a prince. A perfect angel.

Yea, kids throw tantrums. Do they always deserved to be spanked for it?

[Yeti]

Turd ate mud and played with roadkill.

[milleson]

Goddamn. I left for minute and this thread is on the third page.

When our oldest kid was a baby, we swore we would never spank them. Never ever. But then reality set in. When she was between maybe 15-20 months or so, she ceased listening to reason. Things like running in the street and knocking things of the isles at the grocery store became a game. Crap like that had to stop. I don't think she's had a real spanking since she left the toddler stage.

For us:

spanking = quick pop to the backside, sometimes leaving a slightly red mark
which lasts less than a few minutes.

My kids have never been bruised by spanking. And, spankings have never been doled out in anger or to end a tantrum.

I already posted earlier that most of the time, meaning 99%, my kids can be dealt with in a far less obtrusive manner.

[TurdBerglar]

Dude I was a prince. A perfect angel.

Yea, kids throw tantrums. Do they always deserved to be spanked for it?



well everything in life depends on the situation at hand. that should go without saying.

[TurdBerglar]

Turd ate mud and played with roadkill.


i've been terrified of roadkill ever since my cousin threw a dead opossum at me.

[Extra Cheese]

people spank their kids all the time

[Yeti]

i've been terrified of roadkill ever since my cousin threw a dead oppossum at me.
I knew you had a roadkill experience.

How many rednecks does it take to eat a oppossum?

3

1 to eat it and 2 to watch for traffic.

[alexandra]

disappointing eyes. fuck outta here. you do wrong, you reap the consequence, until you know better.

i'm not going anywhere, buddy. i'll tell you what: of all the times my dad has used violence and yelled his throat sore because of me and at me; none of it has really helped. he's just lost more hair than he needed to. the only good thing i've learned from his behaviour is to *never act like that if you want your kids' respect*. a while ago, we had a horrible fight. and to see disappointment/sadness in his eyes for the first time instead of rage wasn't just a surprise - it made me listen to him and respect his words. i even *truly* apologized for a few things. that would've never happened if he had raised his fists, or given me a spank, like he did when i was younger... just saying. good day.

[Qdrop]

A child can very quickly realize the above but needs to be spanked not to go into the street? yes echewta, because the kid HASN'T BEEN HIT BY THE CAR...if a child ran into the street and got hit by a car and survived...there would be no spanking necessary....in fact the kid would probably never go near a road again unless forced to.
the problem is conveying that kind of fear in them WITHOUT them get plowed by a buick.
you're probably not gonna be able to do that with a nice conversation over ice-cream with a 2 or 3 year old.
they are barely more intelligent than chimps.

you are dealing the minds crafted by evolution here....
conditioned responses are easy to program....conditioning is easy when direct stimuli is experienced.
without the stimuli, it's a whole differant ballgame....particularly when thier reasoning and logic is, like i said, barely better than a chimp.

now cognitive systems like hierarchy are also innate....they require only some direct stimuli to explain who can do what and when and how....etc...necessary for social living.
and these are differant systems then "he won't let me have his toy...i'm going to hit him so i can have it..."

[pshabi]

I don't get this shit...

when did American culture ( i have no idea how it is in other countries) decide that spanking young children or adolescents was "uncivilized"?

If your 3 year old runs out into the street, why is it "wrong" to grab them, smack them on the ass, and say "don't EVER do that AGAIN! or you will get another spanking!"...
you can't sit there and have a rational conversation with your 3 year old about the danger of playing in the street...until they can fully understand situations around them, you need to keep them safe with fear if necessary.

if my future 5 year old refuses to pick up their toys, and then calls me "stupid" when i tell them again....i will grab them by the wrist, spin them around and smack them on the ass....it will hurt. they will cry. they will likely think twice before refusing to do what i tell them or before calling their father "stupid".
it worked for me, it will likely work for them.

when did parents start getting this pretentious air about them when saying "oh, we don't spank our children"....as if spanking was some form of archaic torture that only backwards rednecks engage in because they haven't read enough parenting books to "bargain" with their children to please not dump their dinner on the couch and draw pictures with it.

you should never "ask" your children to do what you and society require of them.
you should never "bargain" with your children to keep peace in the house.


and it's not like i think spanking fixes everything....or turns asshole kids into angels.
nor do i think that spanking (spanking, not beating or abuse) turns kids into future violent bullies or animal sadomizers.

actually, much of the latest research on behavior, genetics, and parenting actually displays some rather disheartening discoveries: children's behavior and future behavior has much more to do with genetics and there social circle then with their domestic rearing.
assholes are born assholes. angels are born angels.

none-the-less....
things like rules, boundaries, social etiquette, and SAFETY must be enforced with young children, particularly when they are too young to truly rationalize with.
it is not "backwards" for your children to behave under the fear of punishment...providing they later understand the logic behind such behavior and no longer need punishment to compel them (a level most of us get to naturally).

I will spank my children when they get out of line.

and if someone says "my, your children are well behaved"....i will reply "thank you, i spank them when they get out of line."... and i will be proud of it.
I was spanked growing up. A lot. Never beaten or abused, but pops was seemingly looking for a reason.

I have two boys, 10 and 3.

I'd be lying if I said I've never spanked them. They've both gotten it. I'd also be lying if I said I didn't regret it right away.

You hit your kid and your like, what the fuck is that going to teach? I feel terrible when I do it. I try not to anymore.

[Yeti]

The true disciplinarians make the kid go out and find a nice thick stick or branch to use for their spanking. They also say things like---this will hurt me more than you.

[Echewta]

Sorry Q. I'm just not buying it. Keep an eye on your kids when they are that young and prevent them from going into the street instead of having to spank them when they are about too. Grabbing your kid off the side walk before they go and get hit by the street full of buicks near your place and giving them a scared look and saying no would probably do just the same as smacking them on their ass for a lesson they didn't know they were suppose to learn.

[pshabi]

Something else I just remembered.....

I had my first when I was 18, and was blessed to have a perfect child to raise. If he had been difficult, I don't know what I would've done at that age. Might not have made it.

However, #2 is a complete hellian. He's an angel, but he's defiant and doesn't want to do something if he doesn't want to do it.

When he was 2, he was misbehaving. I think he was not eating his dinner and throwing a fit. He hates organized meals.

Anyway, I had spanked him earlier and he was throwing a fit again. He was sobbing and I angrily yelled, "Do you want another spankin?"

In between sobs he looked at me, with 100% sincerity and wailed, "Yessss!!!"

At that moment I turned to my wife and said, "We can't spank him anymore. He doesn't understand that it's punishment." He had absolutely no understanding of "punishment" and was not putting cause and effect together.

I felt bad that night, but at least I made a realization that spanking wasn't a good method with this little guy.

[Qdrop]

Sorry Q. I'm just not buying it. Keep an eye on your kids when they are that young and prevent them from going into the street instead of having to spank them when they are about too. obviously. but as any parent worth thier salt will tell you, it how you kid acts when you are NOT around that is a truer testiment to your parenting ability.
now yes....a 2 or 3 year old shouldn't be by a street by themselves regardless....that goes without saying.
but all it takes is a instant...just one moment where you aren't watching them...then you see what effect your parenting really had on them.

Grabbing your kid off the side walk before they go and get hit by the street full of buicks near your place and giving them a scared look and saying no would probably do just the same as smacking them on their ass for a lesson they didn't know they were suppose to learn. and if you want to take that risk with your kid...that's your perogative.

[Qdrop]

i would like to take this moment to say that in NO WAY am I implying that people who drive Buicks like to run over small children.

[afronaut]

I didn't read any of the replies in this thread. But I was never spanked or hit ever, and I was always obedient and turned out just fine. Maybe most people just have really shitty parenting skills and are unable to control their kids without the use of corporal punishment. However, if that is the only way you're able to keep your kid in line, then please do. I'd rather you hit your kid than have your little prickling piss me the fuck off in public with it's noisy and spoiled bullshit and have me punt the little twerp like a football.


However, I'd say stopping spoiling and buying every little thing for your kid is more important than hitting him. If you beat your kid and he cries for a couple hours and then gets a brand new playstation3 with the new gta game is he really learning anything? Kids will learn to put up with a little pain if their parents give into all their little whims the rest of the time. Make those little shits earn it. Don't hit them and give into their whims anyway. What are you teaching them? Be able to endure a little pain and you won't have to earn anything? Case in point, me. I was never hit or beat, yet I was never spoiled and got everything I wanted either. I had to earn that shit by being a good kid. And trust me, I've seen plenty of kids who got spanked who were just as bad as the non spanked kids. I used to babysit some. They were complete horrors and still got everything they wanted. The only thing they seemingly learned was to endure pain, and in the end, you will still get everything you want.

[DIGI]

I have to say that when I have children, they will get a timeout. Oh, I should probably mention that said timeout will be brass knuckles with the word "timeout" encrusted with stones on it.

[Qdrop]

Something else I just remembered.....

I had my first when I was 18, and was blessed to have a perfect child to raise. If he had been difficult, I don't know what I would've done at that age. Might not have made it.

However, #2 is a complete hellian. He's an angel, but he's defiant and doesn't want to do something if he doesn't want to do it.

When he was 2, he was misbehaving. I think he was not eating his dinner and throwing a fit. He hates organized meals.

Anyway, I had spanked him earlier and he was throwing a fit again. He was sobbing and I angrily yelled, "Do you want another spankin?"

In between sobs he looked at me, with 100% sincerity and wailed, "Yessss!!!"

At that moment I turned to my wife and said, "We can't spank him anymore. He doesn't understand that it's punishment." He had absolutely no understanding of "punishment" and was not putting cause and effect together.

I felt bad that night, but at least I made a realization that spanking wasn't a good method with this little guy.

and what have you done since?
what worked?

and how the hell does a kid not understand that spanking and pain = punishment? is he a young masicist?

[Qdrop]

i'm not gonna let any other kids in my house to play with my kids...unless they have been spanked before.

i don't trust them.

"can billy come over and play with your kid, Bradd?"

"have you ever spanked billy?"

"oh heavens no! we don't do that..."


"KEEP YOUR FUCKIN HELLIAN AWAY FROM MY HOUSE!!"


maybe if the parents just let me give the kid a random spanking before he comes in, that would be cool i guess.

[cj hood]

this is the debate goin on in the hood household.....one of my boys throws temper tantrums....but after a tap, he stops.......my wife's not a fan.....

[Yeti]

I'm old enough to remember getting spanked by teachers. You don't appreciate a lot of stuff in school until you get older. Little things like being spanked every day by a middle aged woman: Stuff you pay good money for in later life.

[cosmo105]

my parents never once used spanking or any sort of physical punishment. and i was very well-behaved. our neighbors used to always ask them how they got us to be such good kids...meanwhile, their kids were terrified of their father because their punishment was always the belt. once the youngest was actually screaming so loud one of the other neighbors called the police.

my second-oldest brother graduated #5 in his class, was very active in the community and in his school, and is now married, and very successful. and he's always been the most caring, genuine, kind, and gentle guy i've ever known. couldn't ask for a better brother. and my parents had agreed from the start to never, ever spank. "we're very disappointed in you" works much, much better when you're used to tons of love.

i'm never going to teach my kids that violence solves things. i don't care how badly they act out. i could never, ever strike something i love.

[QueenAdrock]

Spanking didn't really work for me, because I was so fucking stubborn. I told myself I could deal with the pain, and refused to let them see me cry.

I was a real handful.

[Qdrop]

i'm never going to teach my kids that violence solves things.

i guess i dont' understand that part.
alot of people keep bleeting that....

you're not teaching your kids to solve problems with violence. if that was the case, ever child that got spanked would go about society hitting everyone and everything that stood in there way...resorting to violence whenever anything troubles them.
obviously that is far from the case.
so that logic is false.

when they are very young, you use spanking as conditioning to stop them from doing certain acts- because reasoning is barely an option at that point.

as they get older, assuming the kids aren't fuckin assholes...spanking will become far less necessary (if at all) if you educate them well and have some luck with thier behavior genes.....but disipline in general is VERY necessary and essential if your child is to learn how to find there place in society and how to act to get there.
spanking is only one facet of disipline.

[cosmo105]

it's a facet that i think is unecessary. i can't imagine being able to reconcile in my mind that hitting my child, however soft, is an acceptable means of punishment, and then explaining to him/her down the line that hitting other children/people is unacceptable.

i was disciplined in very different ways, but to be honest, i rarely needed it because i rarely misbehaved. when you know your parents expect the most of you, you don't want to disappoint them. and they always talked to me as an equal from the beginning, so i learned to talk and read much faster than other kids my age. that really helped them explain to me things i shouldn't and shouldn't have done.

my mom has the most serene attitude about parenting though. after kids and grandkids...she's such a pro. the way she handles my niece and nephew (from my other brother, who wasn't raised in our household), who are some pretty out-of-control kids is pretty amazing to watch. she's always said, "you know, kids aren't very smart. you can always get them to do what you want by being calm and explaining, listen, if we want to do this, we need to do this first! with a cheery attitude. they're quite easy to trick, you know." they need structure, they need to be lead.

[afronaut]

Are you just going to ignore me, Q? You always ignore me when you know I make good points. Because you know I could own you. I do own you. You know this. And it scares you. I should hit you right now for making this thread.


And I think I will. *pow*

[Qdrop]

Are you just going to ignore me, Q? You always ignore me when you know I make good points. Because you know I could own you. I do own you. You know this. And it scares you. I should hit you right now for making this thread.


And I think I will. *pow*
i pretty much agree with you, man.


and you'll hear from my lawyer concerning this black eye.
violence is no way to solve problems.

[adam_f]

Originally posted by Qdrop
i would like to take this moment to say that in NO WAY am I implying that people who drive Buicks like to run over small children.

As for people who drive a Dodge...

[Yeti]

Corporal punishment is the deliberate infliction of pain intended as correction or punishment.

A massive, long-term study shows that spanking of children often causes them problems in adulthood, including anxiety, major depression, drug addiction and alcohol addiction.

The use of the word "spanking" to refer to the discipline of children appears to be largely a North American term. In Britain, it is generally called "smacking."

The Department of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal of Medicine estimate that 1,000 to 2,000 children die every year in the U.S. from corporal punishment that has escalated to a lethal level. They estimate that 142,000 are seriously injured annually.

[Qdrop]

i would never let Cosmo's kids play with my kids...

her kids would probably set mine on fire due to lack of physical discipline....
while cosmo yelled "no no....don't do that....umm...fire elsewhere..."

[Qdrop]

.

A massive, long-term study shows that spanking of children often causes them problems in adulthood, including anxiety, major depression, drug addiction and alcohol addiction.



oh please post the link to this little gem.



and then explain how my mother and her 6 brothers and sisters (all of whom were spanked when necessary) have all survived to this day without drug or alcoholism, major depression, or satanism.
wait, was satansism on there?
it might have well been....

[adam_f]

Originally posted by Qdrop
and then explain how my mother and her 6 brothers and sisters (all of whom were spanked when necessary) have all survived to this day without drug or alcoholism, major depression, or satanism.
wait, was satansism on there?
it might have well been....

Because...they're.....white?

[Yeti]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking.htm

I was spanked also Q and I am fine. I just don't plan on smacking my kid.

[adam_f]

Leave it to the religious right to declare when it is and isn't okay to pummel your child into mental submission. BRAVO, PAT ROBERTSON. BRAVO.

[cosmo105]

i would never let Cosmo's kids play with my kids...

her kids would probably set mine on fire due to lack of physical discipline....
while cosmo yelled "no no....don't do that....umm...fire elsewhere..."
oh christ. no way. not like that. see, one of my cousins was like that in the beginning because his parents were too lenient. they never told him no. i very vividly remember him being about four years old and pummeling my frail little grandma in the leg, and my aunt and uncle not having a clue what to do. they actually asked my parents how they handled us, and my dad told them, "you know, it's okay to tell them no once in a while. you actually kind of have to do that."


don't make assumptions. that makes an ass out of Uma Thurman, and i don't think she likes that very much.


while i said i would never be physically violent with my kids, that doesn't mean that i would let them be in charge. hell no. the parent is always in control. if they're acting out in a store, leave the store as soon as possible, set up a punishment (no this or that, etc.) and STICK WITH IT. it works. i'm telling you, when the kids are trained (and i do mean trained) beforehand, you never need to punish them like that. they don't want to disappoint you, so they don't. they know what the consequences would be.

[Qdrop]

while i said i would never be physically violent with my kids, that doesn't mean that i would let them be in charge. hell no. the parent is always in control. if they're acting out in a store, leave the store as soon as possible, set up a punishment (no this or that, etc.) and STICK WITH IT. it works. i'm telling you, when the kids are trained (and i do mean trained) beforehand, you never need to punish them like that. they don't want to disappoint you, so they don't. they know what the consequences would be.

meanwhile, MY KIDS ARE BURNING!

BURNING!

look at little susie's hair, cosmo...IT'S GONE!
YOU'RE BUYING MY KID A WIG!



with pigtails....

[cosmo105]

susie got what she had coming.

[adam_f]

Originally posted by cosmo105
while i said i would never be physically violent with my kids, that doesn't mean that i would let them be in charge. hell no. the parent is always in control. if they're acting out in a store, leave the store as soon as possible, set up a punishment (no this or that, etc.) and STICK WITH IT. it works. i'm telling you, when the kids are trained (and i do mean trained) beforehand, you never need to punish them like that. they don't want to disappoint you, so they don't. they know what the consequences would be.

Trained to what? TRAINED TO KILL.

[Waus]

I was spanked, I'm okay. I don't think any one method can really be prescribed for all kids.

If your kid doesn't respond to "shaming" and consistency - ignoring or scoffing at the consequences you put out for disobeying, then maybe a little bit of spanking is necessary. I don't plan on going into parenthood with spanking in mind, but I'm not going to rule it out as an effective means of making a child take my rules seriously.

[Yeti]

http://www.stophitting.com/disatschool/facts.php

[adam_f]

If hitting you is wrong, I don't wanna be right.

[Qdrop]

susie got what she had coming.
TELL IT TO THE JUDGE, FIRESTAR!

[milleson]

I was spanked, I'm okay. I don't think any one method can really be prescribed for all kids.

If your kid doesn't respond to "shaming" and consistency - ignoring or scoffing at the consequences you put out for disobeying, then maybe a little bit of spanking is necessary. I don't plan on going into parenthood with spanking in mind, but I'm not going to rule it out as an effective means of making a child take my rules seriously.

Amen.

[cosmo105]

If your kid doesn't respond to "shaming" and consistency - ignoring or scoffing at the consequences you put out for disobeying, then maybe a little bit of spanking is necessary.
that's the thing, though. you have to build the right foundation. if you're in charge, and they know it, they respond all right.

[Waus]

that's the thing, though. you have to build the right foundation. if you're in charge, and they know it, they respond all right.

I see what you're saying - just setting up the authority early, but some kids just don't respond to things like "time out" and losing privileges.

My cousin was a brat and a rebel when he was a kid - he could care less what the consequences were. In my experience, some kids just don't care who's in charge and you have to give them another reason to obey you.

Then again I don't run a freakin' daycare...what do I know about kids.

[Qdrop]

http://www.stophitting.com/disatschool/facts.php


"Corporal punishment is used much more often on poor children, minorities, children with disabilities, and boys...."


HAHHAAHHHA!!!!
yeah, everyone likes to beat the poor asian cripple...

what a pile of shit that site is....

[Yeti]

"Corporal punishment is used much more often on poor children, minorities, children with disabilities, and boys...."


HAHHAAHHHA!!!!
yeah, everyone like to beat the poor asian cripple...

what a pile of shit that site is....

I can't really bash the site. They did extensive studies and research. I'm no expert on the subject. I just randomly picked some sites for people to take a look at.

[Qdrop]

They did extensive studies and research.

really? show me where they got the data for :

Arguments Against Corporal Punishment

1. It perpetuates a cycle of child abuse. It teaches children to hit someone smaller and weaker when angry.
2. Injuries occur. Bruises are common. Broken bones are not unusual. Children's deaths have occurred in the U.S. due to school corporal punishment.

6. Schools that use corporal punishment often have poorer academic achievement, more vandalism, truancy, pupil violence and higher drop out rates.
7. Corporal punishment is often not used as a last resort. It is often the first resort for minor misbehaviors.
8. Many alternatives to corporal punishment have proven their worth. Alternatives teach children to be self-disciplined rather than cooperative only because of fear.


^^looks like a bunch of opinions to me.

and as far as those stats....
anyone who doesn't know the dubious ways a group of people can collect, manipulate, and adjust statistics to serve thier cause needs to do a little more research...

[Yeti]

I don't think anything would change your opinion. It is your right to smack your kid.

[Qdrop]

I don't think anything would change your opinion. a sound stance might.

It is your right to smack your kid.
they are called "love taps".

[bigblu89]

Q, i'm kinda in the same boat as you on this one, but the way it sounds, any "proof", written or otherwise, isn't going to sway your opinion.

[Waus]

I don't think anything would change your opinion. It is your right to smack your kid.

That's what people fight about - but I think it's really not what it's about. It's people's duty to discipline their kids, not smack them. I'm sure there are people who do spank their kids as abuse, but that's a different thing.

Since one kid might need a spanking to send them a message about disobedience and another kid might not, other parents ought to respect that before labeling it "abuse."

[Yeti]

Your original question is interesting. How did the US become so "anti-spanking"? My guess is that there were lawsuits and new government agencies created. I mean think about all the safety issues now..... It is against the law to not have a child in a car seat. When I was a kid they didn't even have car seats. I don't think evolving into new ways of protecting our children and disciplining our kids is a bad thing. I do believe it is up to the parent but I will NOT hit my kid.

[Waus]

Your original question is interesting. How did the US become so "anti-spanking"? My guess is that there were lawsuits and new government agencies created.

That's probably a good guess. I'd say it's because you can't legislate good parenting, but in the wake of seeing abuse people try anyways. So over time people try to pass laws that make parenting 'idiot-proof.' It won't really work the way they intend, but it's well-meaning.

[Dorothy Wood]

I was afraid of my dad because he threatened to spank me when I misbehaved, but only rarely did. my mom is a smacker and an arm grabber. once I didn't want to go to ballet because I wanted to go to work with her and hang out instead, as my dad dropped her off at work, I stuck my tongue out at her and she came back with the demon eyes and said, "HOW DARE YOU!" and smacked me across the face. "DON'T YOU EVER EVER STICK YOUR TONGUE OUT AT ME!" and I never did again. I still remember it and I was like 5 years old or something.

then when I was a teenager, we had some fight in the car and we were sitting in the driveway and I said some horrible bitchy teenagery thing and she smacked me across the face and I was like, "YOU JUST HIT ME, I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU JUST HIT ME?!" but that ended the argument. ha. and I thought, "hmm, I was being kind of a dick I guess."



anyway, I guess any kind of punishment really just taught me that I should do bad things in secret, keep my hate and disrespect to myself. I don't think it taught me to be a better person. I think reinforcing good behavior is a much better way to teach your kid to be a functioning human being who doesn't just do things right to avoid getting hit.

but, if you have a stinker on your hands, I can see how with the running out into the street thing, a surprising smack on the bum and a stern talking to could be necessary. but I think the smack has to occur immediately so it's associated with the act of running into the street. because you're associating pain with the act. because it could ultimately result in greater pain if a car or even a bike were coming.


I don't know, kids are more able to reason than people give them credit for. I used to teach at a preschool and some of them are pretty crafty, even at 18 months old. since we weren't able to hit them (obviously), I found what worked best was being nice and calm most of the time...but then releasing the thunderous angry voice when something was going really wrong. one little girl was a terror, she was about 2 and already sarcastic. she'd throw fits sometimes and I'd have to put her in time out in another room and then calmly talk to her and make her apologize. her parents were nuts though, they were afraid to take their own children outside, and the kids had their own t.v.'s and dvd players in their rooms and were allowed to stay up as late as they wanted. they were crabby kids. but adorable as could be when they weren't screaming.

[Documad]

You might be surprised at just how much a two/three year old understands. I have found that my son does really well when I explain a dangerous situation to him. Sometimes he forgets things but my wife and I are always right there to remind him.

When he does right we never forget to compliment him. "Nice job buddy! You remembered to grab my hand before we crossed the streeet! You are the man!"
<3


My parents were able to raise four kids without spanking. Like Cosmo's parents, my parents' biggest gun was "I'm so disappointed in you." That would DESTROY me.

There was a lot of spanking in my neighborhood though. I saw my friends get spanked by their parents. The spanking always happened in the homes where the parents had no books on their shelves. I don't know if there was cause and effect or whether it was the era or what, but ever since I always tied spanking with lower class parents. That's just what my little brain did with the information. Some of those people raised good adults, but I still remember particular dads as animals.

Anyhow, I think the anti-spanking movement started with childhood development classes and among college-educated parents.

I don't think that refusal to spank should mean refusal to discipline. I've seen that happen in some rare cases and it's a disaster. I've got a few friends who are absolute masters at thinking of ways to discipline and reward their kids. It's more difficult than just spanking, so it's not for the lazy parent, but they are raising some amazing kids.

[Qdrop]

I was afraid of my dad because he threatened to spank me when I misbehaved, but only rarely did. my mom is a smacker and an arm grabber. once I didn't want to go to ballet because I wanted to go to work with her and hang out instead, as my dad dropped her off at work, I stuck my tongue out at her and she came back with the demon eyes and said, "HOW DARE YOU!" and smacked me across the face. "DON'T YOU EVER EVER STICK YOUR TONGUE OUT AT ME!" and I never did again. I still remember it and I was like 5 years old or something.

then when I was a teenager, we had some fight in the car and we were sitting in the driveway and I said some horrible bitchy teenagery thing and she smacked me across the face and I was like, "YOU JUST HIT ME, I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU JUST HIT ME?!" but that ended the argument. ha. and I thought, "hmm, I was being kind of a dick I guess."

well there you go.


anyway, I guess any kind of punishment really just taught me that I should do bad things in secret, keep my hate and disrespect to myself. I don't think it taught me to be a better person. I think reinforcing good behavior is a much better way to teach your kid to be a functioning human being who doesn't just do things right to avoid getting hit.
well, after like a very young age (5 or 6 or whatever), it's not really about conditioned response or teaching moral lessons....as it is about the child learning thier place.
yes, you didn't really become a better moral person when you got hit when you were 8, but you DID realize that you had better not do this shit in front of parents or to them....you needed to respect them (even if some of that respect came from fear). you needed to know your place and respect authority and hierarchy.
some people would reply that that means spanking is a failure, because it's just teaching kids to hide there bad shit and not get caught.
but that's not a failure.
spanking really isn't meant to teach morality.

it's for conditioned responses at very young ages....
and it's for establishing hierarchy, respect, and order later on.
idealy, you really shouldn't need to spank or get physical at all once they hit adolescance...but everyone's differant.

but, if you have a stinker on your hands, I can see how with the running out into the street thing, a surprising smack on the bum and a stern talking to could be necessary. but I think the smack has to occur immediately so it's associated with the act of running into the street. because you're associating pain with the act. because it could ultimately result in greater pain if a car or even a bike were coming. it scares me when we agree...
you know that, right?

[SobaViolence]

some kids just want a response and negative responses are easier to come by, but, hey, at least they have the spotlight. so spanking is playing right into their hand.

i babysat an 8 yr old brat who had broken his leg. he cried, screamed, bitched, moaned, called his parents at work. i couldn't reason with him, but the moment i'd start to ignore his baby bullshit, he'd plead for my attention, he'd swear he'd be good and do his homework. it usually took anywhere from 20 to 90 minutes of complete ignoring to get him to stop, calm down and do his physio and homework. no yelling, or talking for that matter, no eye contact, no response.

he was a spoiled princess who didn't get enough attention from his father, but that's not my concern. mine was just getting through 9 hrs without killing the little bastard. and when he finished his physio and homework, i took him for ice cream or pizza, played an improvised game of soccer or football or just went for a stroll.

kids are more observant than most give credit. they see how parents, siblings and everyone interact and take cues from them. that's why adults are the most important role models.

[kaiser soze]

all this talk of spanking is making me horny

[ericlee]

I got paddled, and the leather belt once. I deserved it that time and I never did it again.

I can't do it to my daughter though but don't get me wrong. I see nothing wrong with it just as long as you don't overdo it. I'm just going to make her do push-ups or hold milk jugs in front of her for like a minute or two. It's hard for me to think about punishment for her right now though because she's too young and sweet but, I gotta think about what to do in the next couple of years.

[Chicka B]

I got spanked by my dad all the time, my mom didn't agree with it. It was for stupid ass reasons too, like one time I got home 5 minutes late from my curfew because my pant leg got caught on my bike pedal. He used a paddle and it hurt, and sometimes it did leave marks. Then he stopped when I started puberty, because then that'd be weird! I think spanking is ok as long as it don't leave any marks and it aint for some dumb ass reasons. I turned out to be ok, and afraid of my dad when he came home from work (still am) haha. (y)

[befsquire]

*note: i did not read this thread in it's entirety before hitting reply.


i don't believe in hitting children. why? because they're children. they don't know any better until you teach them. would it be ok for bobby to hit me if i "disobeyed" or did something he didn't like? no, it wouldn't. that would be domestic violence battery. so why is it ok to hit a child? for all you parents that do it, it may not reach the level of child abuse, but it can certainly be charged as domestic violence battery due to the parent child relationship, and i've had many clients charged with it (the children were all in their teens).

i don't fall for that spanking = teaching. here's what being spanked taught me: mom + angry = spanking (until i'm bigger than her), mom + happy = no spanking. therefore spanking = anger = violence. did i stop doing whatever it was? nope. why? because i had no idea what her reasoning was and therefore she was just being mean.

and what children are darting out into traffic? that's poor parenting. you teach them from an early age about the dangers involved with crossing streets, riding bikes, riding in cars, talking to strangers, etc. (and while on the topic of strangers, ask your kid what a stranger looks like and see what they say. my children know a stranger is anyone that hasn't been introduced to them by me or their father or someone else in our family. and my children equally know that it isn't just strangers who hurt children.)

my children have never been spanked, hit, etc. my children are polite, good children, and everyone comments on how well behaved they are. why? because i have taught my children the proper way to behave. children are capable of learning, and are looking for parents to teach them, and they can understand way more than adults give them credit for. when my kids were younger, it was sufficient to take away the bunny (josh) or bear (noelle) to get the point across. it is evident also in my tone of voice when i'm not pleased. and since they've known since an early age what is and isn't acceptable, as they age they don't pull the typical crap that other kids do, and if it does happen, then the consequence is tailored to what is most important in their lives and what they least likely want to go without.

it's that simple.

[kaiser soze]

amen to that beth (y)

I think spanking can do the reverse...turn a child into a mean person

My sister raised her three children and only spanked one a couple times (which she really hated doing), she teaches them by example 99.9% of the time and they are very kind, courteous, aware, intelligent children. Her example in child raising has taught me a bunch to apply to my future family.

maybe a child development course is in store for ya Q?

[ggirlballa]

if u got angry at an adult u wouldn't spank(:p ) them so don't spank your kids!

[kaiser soze]

I'll pass on spankings and take em straight for the stove top

[zorra_chiflada]

you know, it's not about "hurting" your kids. a smack on the ass does not hurt a great deal. it's more about shocking them. i'm all for it.

[zorra_chiflada]

oh and another thing, my father has this method of scaring the shit out of you if you did something wrong. he is this little old man, doesn't look very intimidating. but i am still scared shitless of making him angry or disappointed. he was not physical, he would just give you this look, or raise his voice. and his temper as well. i'll never be as scared of anyone as i was of him as a child. as a consequence, i fucking behaved around him. there were no two ways about it.

[Documad]

and what children are darting out into traffic? that's poor parenting. you teach them from an early age about the dangers involved with crossing streets, riding bikes, riding in cars, talking to strangers, etc. (and while on the topic of strangers, ask your kid what a stranger looks like and see what they say. my children know a stranger is anyone that hasn't been introduced to them by me or their father or someone else in our family. and my children equally know that it isn't just strangers who hurt children.)
You know, that's been bothering me. Who has kids who are so stupid that they repeatedly run out into traffic? No kid in my extended family was ever that stupid.

I babysat for a boy who had a reputation for running out into traffic. Frankly, all three of that family's kids were crazy stupid. The boy also bit into an electrical cord and had permanent scaring around his mouth. Even as a stupid 8th grade babysitter, I knew that the secret was to keep them busy with activities (and out of the front yard). That family paid double what the other families paid for my services.

[kaiser soze]

you know, it's not about "hurting" your kids. a smack on the ass does not hurt a great deal. it's more about shocking them. i'm all for it.

yeah you're right....tasers are much better for discipline

[Qdrop]

i don't believe in hitting children. why? because they're children. they don't know any better until you teach them. so isn't that exactly why you "should" spank a young child? to teach them with actions, when words would have less of an effect (2-3 years or so)?

would it be ok for bobby to hit me if i "disobeyed" or did something he didn't like? no, it wouldn't. that would be domestic violence battery. because you are not a child.
you're logic is exactly backwards here.

so why is it ok to hit a child? for all you parents that do it, it may not reach the level of child abuse, but it can certainly be charged as domestic violence battery due to the parent child relationship, and i've had many clients charged with it (the children were all in their teens). so is that basically a threat?
would you call the police if you saw a mother spank her child in the front lawn?

i don't fall for that spanking = teaching. here's what being spanked taught me: mom + angry = spanking (until i'm bigger than her), mom + happy = no spanking. therefore spanking = anger = violence. did i stop doing whatever it was? nope. why? because i had no idea what her reasoning was and therefore she was just being mean. well this has already been addressed (but you didn't read the thread):

"well, after like a very young age (5 or 6 or whatever), it's not really about conditioned response or teaching moral lessons....as it is about the child learning thier place.
yes, you didn't really become a better moral person when you got hit when you were 8, but you DID realize that you had better not do this shit in front of parents or to them....you needed to respect them (even if some of that respect came from fear). you needed to know your place and respect authority and hierarchy.
some people would reply that that means spanking is a failure, because it's just teaching kids to hide there bad shit and not get caught.
but that's not a failure.
spanking really isn't meant to teach morality.

it's for conditioned responses at very young ages....
and it's for establishing hierarchy, respect, and order later on.
idealy, you really shouldn't need to spank or get physical at all once they hit adolescance...but everyone's differant."

and what children are darting out into traffic? that's poor parenting. well, granted....you should be watching your child at all times when they are young enough to dart into the street, i don't think anyone would argue that.
but as i said earlier....it how your kids act when the parents are not around that shows what kind of parent you are (to a degree).
even the most diligent parents can lose track of a child for a moment...and if that moment is in front a street (even a neighborhood block), which do you think will have more of an effect on the actions of a 3 year old: a rational discussion about the dangers of these "cars", using concepts they can barely understand.....or the simple equation "me+street= spanking"?
the same with reaching for the stove, trying to get into kitchen sink cupboards, electrical outlets, etc...

you teach them from an early age about the dangers involved with crossing streets, riding bikes, riding in cars, talking to strangers, etc. at 2-5 years old?
when your kid was 2.5 years old and running around in the front yard with you, she fully understood the rational dangers of traffic?

my children have never been spanked, hit, etc. my children are polite, good children, and everyone comments on how well behaved they are. why? because i have taught my children the proper way to behave. they likely have good genes too....and you probably don't let them play with shithead kids who set bad examples...things which are being shown to have a far greater effect than domestic parenting (though parents hate hearing that).

children are capable of learning, and are looking for parents to teach them, and they can understand way more than adults give them credit for. every child is differant.
and i, nor anyone else, is saying to REPLACE conversation with spanking....or to always spank first. spanking should be more of a last resort whenever possible.
also, spanking IS teaching....just more of a straight conditioning/learning.

when my kids were younger, it was sufficient to take away the bunny (josh) or bear (noelle) to get the point across. it is evident also in my tone of voice when i'm not pleased. and since they've known since an early age what is and isn't acceptable, yes, and that worked great for YOUR kids....but who are YOU to demand what is right for all other kids.

as they age they don't pull the typical crap that other kids do, precisely....because children are differant...beyond just how they are raised. so for you to think that your child-rearing scheme can fit all others is rather pretentious.

it's that simple. you sound like that TV mom character (stereotyped caricature) that spouts out all these pretentious parenting maixms....while the other mothers just stare at her with those "fuck you" eyes and would love to see you spend 10 min with thier little devils...

[Loppfessor]

I can't believe this thread is still going especially since this is like the 3rd time we've had this debate in the past year

[kaiser soze]

looks like Q deserves a spanking for this

[Qdrop]

looks like Q deserves a spanking for this

i hope you know Beth considers that abuse....

[ms.peachy]

Q I just don't get why you are so entrenched in the notion that it is simply not possible to raise and discipline kids without hitting them.

[Knuckles]

My wife and I were discussing this subject yesterday. She has a teaching degree and has extensivley studied early childhood development. She told me that every single thing she has read (and that is a shitload) says that spanking is not a recommended form of discipline. These books were all written by Doctors who did years and years of research. I wonder if any doctors recommend spanking? I doubt it.

[Qdrop]

Q I just don't get why you are so entrenched in the notion that it is simply not possible to raise and discipline kids without hitting them.

that's a bit of strawman, peachy....

my stance is to not discount it, use only when necessary (last resort), use it for the correct reasons, and don't over use it.

some children may NEVER really require a spanking.
some may require daily paddles on the ass...

everyone is differant.

i just hope my children aren't assholes.

[Qdrop]

My wife and I were discussing this subject yesterday. She has a teaching degree and has extensivley studied early childhood development. She told me that every single thing she has read (and that is a shitload) says that spanking is not a recommended form of discipline. These books were all written by Doctors who did years and years of research. I wonder if any doctors recommend spanking? I doubt it.

my fiance just completed her Masters in elementary teaching degree as well....and studied many of the same subjects.

her beliefs are pretty in line with mine....and she was NEVER spanked as a child due to her being so well behaved.

i was rarely spanked as a child, very rarely....but it happened.

however, my mom remarried a complete asshole who's great love in life was putting me to work, yelling at me, and physically pushing me around... if not completely ignoring me.
i can honestly say i deserved NONE of that....as he was bascially obsessive compulsive bi-polar... with rage issues.
he taught me how NOT to be....and had NO balance with me in his "parenting".
i NEVER challenged his authority....maybe twice when i was 17 (before i moved out) but that was when i sick of him assualting me verbally and physically...and my mother.
he just did it because he was sick.
he like to throw me around and choke me and spit in my face....basic abuse.
haven't talked to him in 3 years, since my mom divorced him.
probably never will again.

i know what abuse is...
and i know what spanking is.

[Dorothy Wood]

however, my mom remarried a complete asshole who's great love in life was putting me to work, yelling at me, and physically pushing me around if not completely ignoring me.
i can honestly say i deserved NONE of that....as he was bascially obsessive compulsive bi-polar with rage issues.
he taught me how NOT to be....and had NO balance with me in his "parenting".
i NEVER challenged his authority....maybe 2 twice when i was 17 (before i moved out).
he just did it because he was sick.
he like to throw me around and choke me and spit in my face....basic abuse.
haven't talked to him in 3 years, since my mom divorced him.
probably never will again.

i know what abuse is...
and i know what spanking is.


this explains a lot.

[Knuckles]

this explains a lot.
yeah, Q-drop is always trying to choke me and spit in my face:rolleyes:

[Qdrop]

this explains a lot.

not as much as you think.

domestic life is the minority of personality affects when compared to genes and social circles...

[ms.peachy]

you sound like that TV mom character (stereotyped caricature) that spouts out all these pretentious parenting maixms....while the other mothers just stare at her with those "fuck you" eyes and would love to see you spend 10 min with thier little devils...
This comment is just uncalled for, nasty and mean.

[Qdrop]

This comment is just uncalled for, nasty and mean.
it was actually rather light hearted and comical.

you took it wrong.

[ms.peachy]

Possibly. But considering the rest of your response in the same quote, it certainly didn't come across that way. Maybe that's how you meant it, but it's certainly not how it appears. At least, not to me. I can't speak for bef (obviously).

[Qdrop]

Possibly. But considering the rest of your response in the same quote, it certainly didn't come across that way. Maybe that's how you meant it, but it's certainly not how it appears. At least, not to me. I can't speak for bef (obviously).

i'm sure beth will survive this viscious onslaught of mean-spirited vulgarity.

i will pray for her.

[ms.peachy]

OK now you're just being a dick. Look, all I was doing was pointing out that something you say you wrote intending to be lighthearted doesn't come across that way. Would it be so hard to just take some friggin' responsibility for that and say "Yeah I can see how that might be subject to misinterpretation"?

[Qdrop]

OK now you're just being a dick. Look, all I was doing was pointing out that something you say you wrote intending to be lighthearted doesn't come across that way. Would it be so hard to just take some friggin' responsibility for that and say "Yeah I can see how that might be subject to misinterpretation"?

but that would require me to accept someone (actually you, not beth) taking offense to something that is so unoffensive to anyone with basic working knowledge of popculture TV and a sense of humor.
that would require me to accept what amounts to YOUR sancitmonious ruling on the politiness of my posts....when i couldn't disagree more.

why must I swallow my pride? what's to be gained?

[cosmo105]

you're getting into the nature vs. nurture argument when you say "some kids need spanking." they wouldn't if they were raised from the start to be well-behaved.

[cosmo105]

why must I swallow my pride? what's to be gained?
about 800 pounds. :rolleyes:

[Qdrop]

about 800 pounds. :rolleyes:

yes, i do have alot of pride.
i store it in buckets in my shed.




can we get back on topic?

[Waus]

you're getting into the nature vs. nurture argument when you say "some kids need spanking." they wouldn't if they were raised from the start to be well-behaved.

That's a good point. I sincerely believe that some kids will by nature be more rebellious. I think I put more stock in nature than most people.

I guess I'd say that some kids will have more tendency to be rebellious, and how you raise them in light of that determines whether or not spanking would have to be resorted to.

[cosmo105]

^i really don't think so. it's all about nurturing. i believe we're all tabula rasas in the beginning, and from there on it's the parents (and society) that have everything to do with how we turn out. genes can only code for so much. behavior is learned. that's another argument, but i think it's significant to this one.

[Bob]

i haven't followed psychology for a while, but i thought the last outcome of the nature/nurture debate was that neither one is completely accurate, both need to be considered to understand behavior.

[cosmo105]

yeah, i understand that. but i think that there are better ways of conditioning than physical violence (and that IS what it is, however soft).

[Waus]

genes can only code for so much. behavior is learned. that's another argument, but i think it's significant to this one.

Since that's a lot of the reasoning behind my allowance for spanking I wish we could just get into that - but that's this whole...crazy thing (family guy). Just one thought though - if you take that stance on behavior being learned - does that mean that people can be (or must be) raised gay instead of just 'being gay'?

[cosmo105]

ah. no no. of course not. i don't really consider gayness (ha ha) a behavior so much as something inherent. i ascribe to the belief that it is something biological, whether genetic or hormonal differences cause a tendency toward that. but that's just my opinion. :)

[Qdrop]

^i really don't think so. it's all about nurturing. i believe we're all tabula rasas in the beginning, and from there on it's the parents (and society) that have everything to do with how we turn out. genes can only code for so much. behavior is learned. that's another argument, but i think it's significant to this one.

yeah, you really couldn't be more wrong on this.

allow yourself to be "Pinkerized"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0670031518/sr=1-2/qid=1153850846/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-0681845-5097414?ie=UTF8&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393318486/sr=1-1/qid=1153850846/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0681845-5097414?ie=UTF8&s=books

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3554279466299738997

this one of my favorite topics, i'm pretty well informed and passionate about it...and you know how i get.

proceed with caution.

[Qdrop]

ah. no no. of course not. i don't really consider gayness (ha ha) a behavior so much as something inherent. i ascribe to the belief that it is something biological, whether genetic or hormonal differences cause a tendency toward that. but that's just my opinion. :)

funny how you pick and choose which behaviors are innate, and which are learned.

and by funny, i mean not funny.

[Waus]

ah. no no. of course not. i don't really consider gayness (ha ha) a behavior so much as something inherent. i ascribe to the belief that it is something biological, whether genetic or hormonal differences cause a tendency toward that. but that's just my opinion. :)

Well I kind of agree - I'm just hoping that maybe you can use that as an analogy to see how I view children. That is - I think that a certain sense of rebellion stems from genetics and the innate nature of a child.

I think they aren't born a rebel, they're just born with a tendency to be rebellious. How you deal with that is what matters.

[cosmo105]

i'm not picking and choosing. i just said i don't really consider it simply a "behavior." forget it, i'm not going to open up that can of worms.

[beastieangel01]

I was spanked as a kid, a lot. My brother on the other hand has never been spanked to my knowledge, and I've been around for the majority of his life.

I'm not sure why my parents didn't chose spanking as an option for my brother yet did so with me. I do know that I was extremely disciplined all of my life. I very rarely "got out of hand" even in my teen years, and anything considered out of line was basically not cleaning my room right away after I was told to. I lived in fear of punishment. Fear.

I think if it were up to me and my kids, I wouldn't use spanking. There are plenty of other things, like taking away entertainment items, or things they really like as a consequence for their actions. I don't have kids though and I probably won't for a while so maybe my feelings will change. But using a form of violence to get things done or teach is lesson is just something that doesn't settle well with me.

[mickill]

What cosmo's really saying, Q, is that you're wrong and probably couldn't support your argument with any real facts. And she thinks you're a fatty.

[Qdrop]

What cosmo's really saying, Q, is that you're wrong and probably couldn't support your argument with any real facts. And she thinks you're a fatty.

OH OH....HOLD ME BACK, MIKE...HOLD ME BACK...
OHH...I'LL GET HER!...I'LL GET HER GOOD!!

*shakes fist*





cosmo knows she's operating almost entirely on personal intuition, urban myth, and feel good mantras when topics like this come up.
she wisely backs down to protect her fragile world view.

[mickill]

I was all like, "I'ma whoop my kid's ass if he/she ever gets outta line" before I had a kid. But once I had a child I stopped thinking like one. Maybe you'll do the same, Q. Maybe you'll do the same. You never know.

[Qdrop]

I was all like, "I'ma whoop my kid's ass if he/she ever gets outta line" before I had a kid. But once I had a child I stopped thinking like one. Maybe you'll do the same, Q. Maybe you'll do the same. You never know.
yeah, maybe i'll never have to.

i was pretty well mannered and angelic for the most part. Jenny was an angel..
if genes play a good role from us, and we keep our kids away from shit heads...
there may never be a need to for me to spank.

that's fine with me.

[mickill]

You don't actually need to prove that you're a pervert all day long, you know...

[marsdaddy]

Why do your threads always end up 5+ pages long? How many times have YOU posted in here?

To the topic at hand, what I think spanking teaches a 3 year old is, "it's okay to hit" for some reason. 3 year olds don't really have impulse control, so they will probably use this lesson to hit some other kid or you.

I also think people are having kids later in life, when they realize it's not a battle of wits with your child. And hitting your kid will not make you feel superior or less stressed about life.

Spanking can be used appropriately, but maybe not on a 3 year old. Also, there is a difference between striking your kid and showing force to be respected. I have grabbed my kid and stopped him from what he wants to do, when he's misbehaved, but usually only if he put himself or someone else in danger.

Ultimately, your central point is flawed. The US is anti-spanking the way we're pro-American.

[cosmo105]

cosmo knows she's operating almost entirely on personal intuition, urban myth, and feel good mantras when topics like this come up.
and personal experience?

i just get tired of arguing with you because it never gets anywhere. i'm not really interested in changing your opinion anyway. i'm not going to spank my kids. if you want to spank yours, knock yourself out.

[marsdaddy]

i'm not going to spank my kids. if you want to spank yours, knock yourself out.Hopefully not them, though.

[na§tee]

sometimes these threads are like pay per view tv. or a role playing game.
just sit here, click refresh. watch.
i'm not even gonna contribute cos it is was it is; pay per view. everything i wanted to say has been said by far more eloquent people previously.

[Qdrop]

Why do your threads always end up 5+ pages long?
i incite debate.


How many times have YOU posted in here?
the fuck does that matter?


To the topic at hand, what I think spanking teaches a 3 year old is, "it's okay to hit" for some reason. 3 year olds don't really have impulse control, so they will probably use this lesson to hit some other kid or you.
have you documented this with your own children?

this was not the case with me...
and i don't see how one can so casually make the assumption that if a kid gets spanked...and then later hits another child- that those two must be cause and effect. that forgoes genetic propensity or 20 other variables that could have led to that child hitting someone.
over time children are able to differantiate between thier parent establishing dominancea and boundries....and hitting another child impulsively for a toy.
one cannot just spout that those are one and the same...


And hitting your kid will not make you feel superior or less stressed about life.
sadly, some think it does.


Spanking can be used appropriately, but maybe not on a 3 year old.
explain.


Also, there is a difference between striking your kid and showing force to be respected.
why must there be a differance?
again, painting spanking as culturual ill that should be forced out of society...
it's a spanking...not dropping an H-bomb.

[marsdaddy]

Ooooh, we're back to the quote by quote debate method. What FUN!!i incite debate. You're like the Wal-Mart of the board


the fuck does that matter? Are you seriously this out of touch?


have you documented this with your own children?Yes, I'm documenting everything. Marsdaddykidscam.com, though mickill's banned.

this was not the case with me...And your childhood experiences are more valid than cosmo's?
and i don't see how one can so casually make the assumption that if a kid gets spanked...and then later hits another child- that those two must be cause and effect. that forgoes genetic propensity or 20 other variables that could have led to that child hitting someone.
over time children are able to differantiate between thier parent establishing dominancea and boundries....and hitting another child impulsively for a toy.
one cannot just spout that those are one and the same...
One (you) can spout anything, though, right? "forgoes genetic propensity" PULEAZE.

sadly, some think it does.Sadly, with your lack of self-awareness and without this board for an outlet, some might be you


explain.see my comments about impulse control and yours about over time


why must there be a differance?You shouldn't need to hit your child to gain their respect.
again, painting spanking as culturual ill that should be forced out of society...
it's a spanking...not dropping an H-bomb.Wow, you really should turn your attention to world hunger.

[skra75]

I think if it were up to me and my kids, I wouldn't use spanking. There are plenty of other things, like taking away entertainment items, or things they really like as a consequence for their actions.

This is what I do. I started early with my kids, taking away priveledges, and if that didn't work, giving them a 'time out'. Lately, with my son I ask him to pay cash for his mistakes if it is something that requires money, like a call from his mobile phone that is out-of-plan. My son is 8 and it warms my heart to see how well he responds to my discipline, even when I simply say "That's not a good idea, I'd like you to rethink that" - and he listens, or better yet - he corrects his actions before I have to talk to him about it.

Violence with kids only breeds more violence, ultimately resulting in a passive, violent culture fed on social fear. As the parents of a new generation, it is our responsibility to create positive change through compassionate leadership. Our children will pass it to their children, and perhaps several generations from today our world may be a better place.

That being said, there's no substitute for the "Loud Dad Voice". I only pull out that weapon when things are too chaotic and there must be intervention.

(!) "KNOCK IT OFF!"(!)

[Qdrop]

Are you seriously this out of touch? the amount of responses i make on my own thread are irrelevent...as you look to cloud the issue yet again.


I'm documenting everything. Marsdaddykidscam.com, though mickill's banned.
just meaning "are you speaking from experiance with your own child.."

And your childhood experiences are more valid than cosmo's?
either of our insilar cases can be used to refute any ONE general assumption of child rearing techniques, if they are given as absolutes.

more than anything, though....they shoud how we are all differant...and required differant rearing techniques with varying results.


One (you) can spout anything, though, right? "forgoes genetic propensity" PULEAZE. forgoe genetic propensity...meaning discount that a child simply may simply be more aggressive genetically, whether they are spanked or not....or that aggressiveness is genetically inherited from ther parents....so that perhaps the spanking and the childs later aggression are due to genes and inheritance, rather than learned aggression.
welcome to 2006. read a book.

.Sadly, with your lack of self-awareness and without this board for an outlet, some might be you yes, mars..i'm a child abuser in waiting.
funny how peachy doesn't jump on YOU for saying statement like that.

[milleson]

Since my initial reply is on the first page, I would just like to point out that I quit agreeing with Qdrop many pages ago.

[kaiser soze]

ugh, would you guys just shut up and beat your kids already!!

[Qdrop]

Since my initial reply is on the first page, I would just like to point out that I quit agreeing with Qdrop many pages ago.

quitter.


why? my stance hasn't changed.
you're just afraid to stand on the side of someone who isn't popular.

[Documad]

So I guess that I was correct in answering the question -- the US became anti-spanking as a result of education.

My young brain was seriously biased but fairly on point. :)

I also know there's a strong cultural element -- certain cultural groups are way more likely to be physically violent with kids. That was a huge problem when I worked in juvenile court. It was amazing what was acceptable conduct in some cultures and how difficult it was to break the cycle.

[kaiser soze]

Q

if you could, please provide examples of when you should or shouldn't spank your kid

Considering the running into the street and almost getting hit by a car, why would that deserve physical punishment when the kid was clearly niave of the danger and not actually doing something that is damaging to another person?

should people also spank children with mental handicaps?

will you let your wife slap your teenage daughter when she comes home and tells you she's been knocked up by a seedy hiphop dj?

[STANKY808]

This seems to be the best on the subject available right now...

http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1284539.pdf

[milleson]

quitter.


why? my stance hasn't changed.
you're just afraid to stand on the side of someone who isn't popular.

No, you became a zealot.

[befsquire]

q, you are trying to make me argue with you, aren't you?

i never said anything was or was not abuse, i merely labeled crimes as they are charged here in the state of florida. would i call the cops on someone spanking their kid in the front yard? of course not. first, because i'm a criminal defense attorney. second, that makes me a witness and i can't represent them (and they're likely broke ass trash if they're spanking their kid in the front yard).

i do think that you resorted to being insulting and nasty towards me, but that's yo steez, so i expect it.

[befsquire]

If a kid is in his teens, he probably is too old to be spanked/hit/slapped by a parent. Without hearing the details of what happened, I'd have to suspect some type of abuse was committed by any parent who raised their hand to a teenager.
i'll give you two examples that were the last two domestic violence cases i had with parents and their teens.

mother and 16 year old daughter are arguing over the 16 year old's shitty boyfriend. daughter calls mom a bitch, mom slaps her in the face. once. daughter calls the cops. cops cannot see any red marks on the daughter's face. mother is arrested and the case is not dropped until the day of trial when the daughter doesn't show up to testify. meanwhile, the mom is in jail for 73 days because she can't afford to bond out. why? because a common condition of bond on a domestic violence battery case is no contact with the victim, and you must maintain separate residences. my client couldn't afford to get a separate place to live while waiting out the trial date even if she could have gotten her own mother to bail her out (which my client's mom wouldn't because she's scared of the 16 year old and her shitty boyfriend).

father and daughter are arguing about her staying out late at night because she's 13 and he doesn't think she should be out until 2 am. unfortunately, the father and his wife are having problems, and the wife could care less if the 13 year old is out having sex, doing drugs, etc. the father grabs his daughter by the wrist and then pushes her on the bed and he walks out of her room and shuts the door. she uses her phone to call police. no visible redness, etc. father is arrested. see above for the rest (except he did bond out and was able to afford to pay $8 a day to stay in a hotel in a drug trafficking / prostitution area).

[skra75]

i'll give you two examples that were the last two domestic violence cases i had with parents and their teens.

Damn...both of these stories are a mess. holy fuck.

[TurdBerglar]

you should be able to back hand your kid for calling you a bitch

you should be able to force your kid into their room and look the door

[Qdrop]

Q

if you could, please provide examples of when you should or shouldn't spank your kid i can give examples of when I would spank my child. but again....this is opinion....and relevant only to my scenario and my child.
differant children require differant tactics.
all i'm clamouring for, is the secured right of each parent to make that decision and not be chastized or arrested if they choose spanking.

for me to give you a list of hypothetical scenarios when i would and wouldn't hit a child would seem redundant.....
many have already been listed out on this thread.....read.

Considering the running into the street and almost getting hit by a car, why would that deserve physical punishment when the kid was clearly niave of the danger and not actually doing something that is damaging to another person? dude....read the thread.
this has already been discussed and answered.

should people also spank children with mental handicaps?
ooh..that's a very dicey situation.
probably not... my best friend and my aunt both work in home daycenters for the mentally handicapped, and i've volunteered there....
you are dealing with VERY differant brains here....many not only have learning disabilities, but lack alot of impulse control...and, unlike a child, they don't grow out of that. perpetual children.
hitting them would have little effect regardless....operant conditioning or otherwise.
a child can learn from, react, and grow from being spanked...
many with mental handicaps cannot.
again though...there are so many levels of mentally handicapped... you can't just give a blanket answer.

will you let your wife slap your teenage daughter when she comes home and tells you she's been knocked up by a seedy hiphop dj?
fuck yeah....we'll take turns...

[enree erzweglle]

Quick disclaimer: I haven't read the entire thread.

I don't hit people--anyone. I don't know that I've ever felt moved to want to do physical violence at all, to anyone. I don't quite get how that helps anyone in the long run.

About spanking as a reprimand for my kid when he was little: I think we did okay by talking and by knowing what was important to him and withholding that important-thing as punishment. I rarely had to do any withholding. We mostly talked. That, to me, is a more preferable way to teach cause-effect and it worked for us.

I think when those systems break down is when they're implemented inconsistently among parents and grandparents, or when the thing that's being withheld is not important to the kid in the first place. Also, that withholding thing breaks down when it's used for every little offense because kids learn to adjust and make a thing not so important. It's a lot easier to put a kid in some sort of time-out or to impose some sort of sanction on him than it is to find creative ways to really talk to them about this stuff.

[Qdrop]

No, you became a zealot.

passionately defending one's position without backing down hardly makes one a zealot.

poor usage of a big word.


so sorry if i don't castrate myself with apologetic humility to maintain friendly relations...like too many others on this board.

[Dr Deaf]

I don't get this shit...

when did American culture ( i have no idea how it is in other countries) decide that spanking young children or adolescents was "uncivilized"?


when politically correctness overwhelmed everything. back when i was a kid, we'd ride on the parcel shelf of sedans, in the back of pick up trucks and often without seatbelts inside.

people smoked EVERYWHERE. elevators, department stores and even hospital waiting rooms. anyone born before 1980 probably has seen pics of themselves as kids with adults smoking and drinking stubbies in the background. no one gave a shit, that's just how it was.

i got spanked a few times, and had to brush my mouth out with dish soap for saying fuck or a variation of. my mom just did what she felt was acceptable at the time. i don't hold it against her. do dumb shit, get a slap on the ass.

there's a difference between child abuse and spankings. the line is so thin these days, its probably best to pursue other disciplinary methods instead. i don't think it was wrong for our parents to have doled out spankings, but by todays standards, it seems a tad primitive.

although beth and i aren't planning on having kids and i've never contemplated spankings as discipline before, i think i'd probably just try an alternate mode of discipline. besides, i'm awesome, she's awesome how could our kids be any less awesome?

awesome + awesome = awesomer.

kick it old school and whop your kids if you've got to. we can only hope they turn out as well mannered and socially responsible as you.

[g-mile7]

I would not spank my kids unless it came down to that last resort type of deal. I feel that my kids won't need it to begin with as long as I set lines not to cross. Besides, why would I use the same form of abuse and control that was used on my ancestors/slaves hundreds of years ago? I would hope and pray I would have a better sense of history unlike many in the black community.



Also there have been proven negative reprecussions in terms of psychological effects on those who have been spanked (introversion, low self-esteem, etc.) although there have been signs of postive effects. It is a thin line, a line that shouldn't be used if the parents handle there business from day one in theory.

[Waus]

Besides, why would I use the same form of abuse and control that was used on my ancestors/slaves hundreds of years ago? I would hope and pray I would have a better sense of history unlike many in the black communitys.

I dunno if 'spanking' was really the right word for it. Just sayin.

[g-mile7]

I dunno if 'spanking' was really the right word for it. Just sayin.


Whuppings then? Either way belt+flesh+welts.....even if it is a toned down form of it today.

[Qdrop]

jesus christ, gmile.


spanking your kids butt = black slavery ?


so does punching woody allen = Holocaust?

[Waus]

Yo Q - come up with another controversy. I'm tired of this one.

[g-mile7]

jesus christ, gmile.


spanking your kids butt = black slavery ?


so does punching woody allen = Holocaust?



Your so fucking annoying sometimes you know that? Really you are, or else you would see that I was just saying that they are related in a sense...unless you're talking about putting ol lil Q on your lap and just spanking with your hand, then you might have me; otherwise, the type of spanking I grew up seeing (cousins, etc.) was with a belt thus justifying the statement I made. I wasn't making it a damn race thing I was just pointing out a similarity I picked up, either way its hypocrisy ("I beat you cause I love you")

How about you get off your fucking high horse and stop trying to one up everything....shit no one in here to argue with you.

[Dr Deaf]

so does punching woody allen = Holocaust?


more like a lolocaust. for real, that was funny.

[Qdrop]

Yo Q - come up with another controversy. I'm tired of this one.

i'm thinkin, i'm thinkin...

[TurdBerglar]

how the fuck could you punch woody allen? he's so defenseless!

[paul jones]

how the fuck could you punch woody allen? he's so defenseless!
get some midgets to punch him

[TurdBerglar]

some german midgets!

[paul jones]

some german midgets!
dressed as Hitler

[TurdBerglar]

with tiny concentration camp survivors as fist!

[zorra_chiflada]

and anne frank, and other various holocaust stereotypes

[TurdBerglar]

don't be stupid

[zorra_chiflada]

:(

[zorra_chiflada]

ps, with children, the most important thing is not discipline, but plenty of love and hugs, and praise.
i'm gonna be fucking awesome parent. you bitches are all jealous

[marsdaddy]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/30/PKGDOIM0A21.DTL (Q: "IS THERE any tribe of people who never commit crimes?"

A: That's been said about the Tarahumara Indians of the Sierra Madre in Mexico. Why is unclear. Some scholars seriously contend it's because they don't spank their kids. )

[marsdaddy]

Q: IS THERE any tribe of people who never commit crimes?
A: That's been said about the Tarahumara Indians of the Sierra Madre in Mexico. Why is unclear. Some scholars seriously contend it's because they don't spank their kids. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/30/PKGDOIM0A21.DTL)

[TurdBerglar]

yeah but indians are extint. they fucked up somehow

[Qdrop]

Q: IS THERE any tribe of people who never commit crimes?
A: That's been said about the Tarahumara Indians of the Sierra Madre in Mexico. Why is unclear. Some scholars seriously contend it's because they don't spank their kids. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/30/PKGDOIM0A21.DTL)

if this is one of the past cultures i think you are talking about, this has been shown to be an Urban Legand....as are ALL supposed "Noble Savage" accounts of peaceful primative cultures.

Steven Pinker talks about it in his most recent book and in an interview....i can link if you want.

[cosmo105]

i'm part (a big part actually) Tarahumara!

[ms.peachy]

if this is one of the past cultures i think you are talking about, this has been shown to be an Urban Legand....as are ALL supposed "Noble Savage" accounts of peaceful primative cultures.

Steven Pinker talks about it in his most recent book and in an interview....i can link if you want.
I don't know, I just looked this up on this site (http://www.tarahumara.com.mx/english.asp) and it does clearly say that they do not scold their children and put some land and animals under their care at a young age in order to teach them to make decisions.

[Schmeltz]

suppose it depends on the cultural trajectory that informs your society. If the United States of America has enshrined, within its formal legal or informal cultural paremeters, that it is better to reason with children as to the moral quality of their behaviour than it is to associate physical pain with perceived immoral behaviour, then I would consider it a step forward. The law codes of various ancient societies prescribed physical punishments of varying levels of excruciating pain in order to perpetuate their concepts of moral behaviour, and where are they now? It seems to me that the association of physical punishment with improper action is a much more primitive form of discipline than the use of emotive punishments that teach children to think instead of to suffer - but then children are primitive social actors with little concept of either rational thought or consequential suffering.

As a child, I was alternately spanked (sometimes fairly forcefully) for bad behaviour, or had the consequences of my actions explained to me in terms I could understand. I think I turned out the better for a balanced approach to both, but should I have children I couldn't see myself hitting them simply because as a bigger person I know better than they do. The balance might be shifting in one direction at the expense of the other - maybe for the best.

[Qdrop]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBVmfIUR1DA&search=angry%20german%20kid

^watch that and tell me you don't believe in spanking children.

explain some optional ways of discipline/getting through to THAT...

[Qdrop]

Q: IS THERE any tribe of people who never commit crimes?
A: That's been said about the Tarahumara Indians of the Sierra Madre in Mexico. Why is unclear. Some scholars seriously contend it's because they don't spank their kids. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/30/PKGDOIM0A21.DTL)

http://lucy.ukc.ac.uk/EthnoAtlas/Hmar/Cult_dir/Culture.7872

no crimes?
then why do they have a court and jail in there towns?

"Each pueblo contains a center, composed of a church and,
usually, a comunidad, or combined courthouse and jail."

"Polygyny is practiced. Divorce is frequent and involves little formality."

hmmm....

it takes 5 minutes to google this shit.
might help to research before you post.

[Lex Diamonds]

Whenever my girl friends do something annoying I spank them on the ass. It's not the same as hitting someone, it's just like telling them to shut up/not do it again.

Plus, they enjoy it. (y)

[marsdaddy]

it takes 5 minutes to google this shit.
might help to research before you post.If you dig a little deeper, I think you'll find they became susceptible to these 'crimes' as drug traffickers moved in.

Might I suggest you re-enroll in a Tae Bo class.

[QueenAdrock]

I found this article interesting:

http://www.physorg.com/news5617.html

Towards the bottom:

· Strong associations between childhood adversity and adult depression. Factors most strongly related to depression include: mother’s depression, reports of neglectful upbringing, too much physical punishment, having an unaffectionate father, and experiencing a lot of family conflict.