"All with Muslim names....."

[Qdrop]

"The Bank of England said it had frozen the accounts of 19 people arrested Thursday. The men, ranging in age from 17 to 35, had names of Muslim origin, many of which are common in Pakistan."

again, a terrorist attack driven by muslim men, most of middle eastern heritage and origin....

yet it's still "wrong" to profile them at airports, etc....


sensitivety over truth.

when will we learn.

[QueenAdrock]

Well I know that if there was a terrorist plot with brunette suburban white girls, I'd still hate to be thought of as a "possible terrorist" when I was traveling and completely resent other people looking down on me because of it...but on the other hand, I'd have to expect it. However, I'd be really pissed that the other brunette suburbanites were messing it up for the rest of us.

One of the things that bothered me most when I was reading that was that it said 17 to 35. Those kids were what, 11 or 12 when 9/11 happened? That's why I don't think the war on terror is winnable...you can always recruit and brainwash and whatever else at such an early age, creating a never-ending jihadist army. (n)

[Qdrop]

I'd still hate to be thought of as a "possible terrorist" when I was traveling and completely resent other people looking down on me because of it...but on the other hand, I'd have to expect it. However, I'd be really pissed that the other brunette suburbanites were messing it up for the rest of us.


exactly.
this country is so afraid of pissing off non-threatening muslims, and of percieved civil rights abuses, that they put that above safety and logic.
as if it would be un-american to focus on a legitimate group of people to keep everyone safe.

but any innocent muslims should not hold it against the US if they are focused on for safety reasons...but rather show thier outrage againt those of thier faith that are enacting all of these crimes.
the question as been asked before: where is the non-fundamentalist muslim outrage against the muslim fanatics?

i understand the argument that it "goes against what America stands for" to focus on any ethnic or religious group....this country is supposed to stand for equality and non-discrimination.
but how far can we carry that flag if a LEGITIMATE and historically accurate threat by particular group begs the necessity?

what's more important: the continuing of enforced "color-blindness" to maintain a virtual PR campaign of equality....or the reasonable safety of those that deserve it?

we shouldn't fear the scolding of other countries if we foucs on certain groups of people. those countries should have enough reason and sensibility to see it's necessity.
we shouldn't fear the backlash from non-threatening muslims.
those muslims should focus thier anger on the fundamentalist zealots who perpetuate the crimes and fear in the first place.

it would not be misplaced xenophobia, it would be reasonable reactions to the actions of others.
self-defense.

[gorilla]

reason? what does an audio program have to do with this?

[EN[i]GMA]

I think it's especially telling that we actually have forms of 'racial profiling' with affirmitive action and the like.

Now I know there are seperate arguments and rationales for that, but AA is a clear example that 'racial equality' is an ideal that people are willing to put aside in order to focus on other consequences and effects.

I don't see why this can't be viewed in a similar manner.

I mean, I hate the thought of profiling, I really do, but when all the terrorists fit the same profile, it becomes obvious, what needs to be done.

[kaiser soze]

So it should be ok for all white people to be profiled for the acts of the KKK or Neo-Nazi groups?

Also, there have been attempts by white and black people (shoe bomb, charging the cockpit) on passenger jets since 9/11 as well...why aren't these ethnicities being profiled?

The Constitution protects the rights of American Muslims as well, they have unalienable rights just like the rest of us, equality remember?

This war on terror isn't going to end anytime soon, should we just pack them up and put them in camps to keep us all safe? What's the solution that keeps them safe from those who profle or even attack muslims?

Just curious how far safety will go over freedoms?

"Those who give up liberty for security, deserve neither" T. Jefferson.

[DroppinScience]

Wasn't one of the bomber suspects the white son of a former Conservative Party politician?

I guess we can "profile" conservatives while we're at it...

[Qdrop]

So it should be ok for all white people to be profiled for the acts of the KKK or Neo-Nazi groups?
yeah, i see this same inappropriate analogy on other boards too...
like "should cops pull all black people over if they are driving a Benz too"
"should we assume all italians are in the mob?"
"should we assume all hispanics are illegal too?"

let's spell this out....

no, none of those things should be assumed, including the KKK association.

we shouldn't suspect all italians of being in the mob....but if investigating mob activity we DO focus on italian families.
how many Swedish mobsters are in New Jersey, you think?

we shouldnt' suspect all hispanic of being illegal....but if investigating illegal immigration we DO focus on mexican hispanics.
how many Albanions are illegally crossing the border right now, you think?

we shouldn't suspect all whites of being KKK members....but if investigating KKK activity we DO focus on whites.
how many black KKK members do you know of?

and we shouldn't suspect all muslims or middle eastern men of being terrorists....but if investigating terrorist plots, we SHOULD focus on muslim men first.

it seems insensitive at first...but it IS logical.

and concerning the examples i listed above:
who should innocent black males be mad at?
the cops?
or the disproportionate amount of black youths who DO steal cars and deal drugs and perpetuate the stereotype?

who should innocent muslims who are targeted by terrorist investigations be more made at...the investigators, or the islamic fundamentalists who perpetuate the fear, crimes, and stereotypes?

Also, there have been attempts by white and black people (shoe bomb, charging the cockpit) on passenger jets since 9/11 as well...why aren't these ethnicities being profiled? yeah, run the stats on terrorist activity in the US, Spain, Africa, UK in the last 5 years.... how many were muslim (with muslim names) compared to "john smith from alabama" or "john blake from Leeds".

and what did that white british man (the shoe bomber) change his name too?
hmmmmmm....

The Constitution protects the rights of American Muslims as well, they have unalienable rights just like the rest of us, equality remember? it's funny though....notice how that same logic isn't used with affirmative action? special treatment based on race, etc.
rather hypocritical....

[Rock]

being a 29 year old pakistani muslim male (not practicing but I know about the communities), i have just accepted the fact that I will have to go to the airport an hour or more earlier than most people. Do I think its fucked up, yes. but do I blame them for what they are doing? no. I can't.

The funny thing about when people say "why aren't the peaceful muslims speaking up against the nutjob muslims?" well...they are. you just don't hear about it. Whether its due to a small voice or lack of media coverage or being buried in the back of the paper. Unless you already have a name for yourself and speak out about it, you aren't going to be heard. Thats a fact. I can guarantee that if you went to listen to some sermons at the mosques today here in the US, that 90% of them would be about how fucked up the approach these people are taking to get whatever distorted task/message they are trying to get across is.

And you know that 9 out of 10 people that believed they were being targeted unfairly whether it was by the NSA, the cops, a convenient store clerk....they would totally bitch about it even if they "fit" the profile. That includes most of the people that read this.

[Bob]

this is one of those times when i don't want to agree with qdrop, but i'm having a hard time not doing it. in my heart, i'm against it, because it's so very clearly a morally slimy thing to do. but in my head...well you can't deny that it fuckin makes sense, slimy as it may be.

although i do have to wonder that if in some part of my brain i'm only as willing to go with it as i am because i'm too white and unremarkable to be affected by it. one of those "they came for the communists and i didn't say anything because i wasn't a communist" kind of things.

i dunno, it's one of those things that hurts to think about

[Qdrop]

this is one of those times when i don't want to agree with qdrop, but i'm having a hard time not doing it.

jesus, man....you act like i'm fuckin satan or something...
jeesh...

[Bob]

jesus, man....you act like i'm fuckin satan or something...
jeesh...

nah, it's not that, it's just...well, nuzz's quote in your sig sums it up pretty much

[Qdrop]

being a 29 year old pakistani muslim male (not practicing but I know about the communities), i have just accepted the fact that I will have to go to the airport an hour or more earlier than most people. Do I think its fucked up, yes. but do I blame them for what they are doing? no. I can't. expand on this please.

The funny thing about when people say "why aren't the peaceful muslims speaking up against the nutjob muslims?" well...they are. you just don't hear about it. Whether its due to a small voice or lack of media coverage or being buried in the back of the paper. Unless you already have a name for yourself and speak out about it, you aren't going to be heard. Thats a fact. I can guarantee that if you went to listen to some sermons at the mosques today here in the US, that 90% of them would be about how fucked up the approach these people are taking to get whatever distorted task/message they are trying to get across is. i gotta ask...have YOU witnessed formal protests by peacefull/innocent muslims against fundamentalist crimes? Have you read or seen any evidence of this first hand?
have you been to any mosques and heard such sermons?
YOU personally.

perhaps it is the media just not covering it.... but i'm skeptical.

i see a few notable muslim talking heads in print and on cable news shows denouncing it....
but where are the large scale demonstations?
where are the crowds of thousands and thousands surrounding mosques in the middle east denouncing islamic fundamentalists, with signs that say "DOWN WITH TERRORISM" or "NOT WITH MY RELIGION"?

why is there NOT a clear divide between peacefull muslims and fundamentalists?
is that REALLY just the media not showing it?

[Qdrop]

nah, it's not that, it's just...well, nuzz's quote in your sig sums it up pretty much

well, i'd rather be hated for telling it like it is...
than loved for being agreeable.

NOT that i think that of you...
i love you, bob.

[Rock]

expand on this please.
its just like you were saying....i fit the profile. if someone told me that a guy standing about 6' 7" was possibly coming to kill me and my family. I'd be looking at all people around 6' 4" and higher. If it wasn't you...sorry for the full cavity search, but i just don't want to take any chances. So I can't blame them. Its the logical thing to do for my family's safety.

i gotta ask...have YOU witnessed formal protests by peacefull/innocent muslims against fundamentalist crimes? Have you read or seen any evidence of this first hand?
have you been to any mosques and heard such sermons?
YOU personally.

Formal protests...unfortunately I can't say I have witnessed one. I have only heard minor talk about it.
As far as the sermons go. Definitely. Ever since 9/11 its an ongoing topic at the mosques on Fridays (that is like going to church on Sunday for Christains). I haven't been in a while...but when I am sort of forced to go with my family...it definitely is a major topic. Its kind of weird to me that I know hundreds upon hundreds of muslim families (my parents are pretty active in the community) here in the US and not one of them supports these acts of terrorism. Not one.
And I know its not just here. I have family all over the country and my cousins say the exact same thing I am saying.

i see a few notable muslim talking heads in print and on cable news shows denouncing it....
but where are the large scale demonstations?
where are the crowds of thousands and thousands surrounding mosques in the middle east denouncing islamic fundamentalists, with signs that say "DOWN WITH TERRORISM" or "NOT WITH MY RELIGION"?

The crazy thing about it over there is its all a touchy subject. the majority of the people who do oppose it are sometimes too scared to say anything because of the possible repercussions. They are worried about the safety of their families. A lot of people just go with it because they are afraid of the people that are like..."if you aren't with us...you are against us". Don't get me wrong. I'm sure a lot of the people there are brainwashed to believe that we are soooo evil over here and what not. But I'm willing to bet its a less than half (against) and a little more than half (for) kind of thing.
When I was in Pakistan last summer I talked about it with some people. It was as if most of the educated people over there thought for themselves and believed it was all bullshit for a bullshit cause. But the rest of the uneducated people (keep in mind that it is a 3rd world country and a lot of people don't have any type of formal education, mostly farmers) just went along with what people told them they were supposed to believe.

why is there NOT a clear divide between peacefull muslims and fundamentalists?
is that REALLY just the media not showing it?

Dude...how many muslims do you know? seriously? I'm guessing not many.

[Qdrop]

As far as the sermons go. Definitely. Ever since 9/11 its an ongoing topic at the mosques on Fridays (that is like going to church on Sunday for Christains). I haven't been in a while...but when I am sort of forced to go with my family...it definitely is a major topic. Its kind of weird to me that I know hundreds upon hundreds of muslim families (my parents are pretty active in the community) here in the US and not one of them supports these acts of terrorism. Not one.
And I know its not just here. I have family all over the country and my cousins say the exact same thing I am saying. that's very good to hear.



When I was in Pakistan last summer I talked about it with some people. It was as if most of the educated people over there thought for themselves and believed it was all bullshit for a bullshit cause. But the rest of the uneducated people (keep in mind that it is a 3rd world country and a lot of people don't have any type of formal education, mostly farmers) just went along with what people told them they were supposed to believe.
and that makes sense.
poverty breeds ignorance and desperation.

the real war on terrorism should be focused on lack of education and poverty--THAT'S the root of the problem.


Dude...how many muslims do you know? seriously? I'm guessing not many.
not a one...
that's why i'm asking you so many questions....
i want to know...

i actually have 2 mosques right in my neighborhood....
i was thinking about getting some balls and just going to a friday service, if they would let me.
hear things first hand....

[QueenAdrock]

Yeah, all the Muslims I know are very peaceful. I'd say I know about 10, but each one of them denounces fundamentalism. I haven't heard of many American Muslims being violent at all.

[Rock]

i actually have 2 mosques right in my neighborhood....
i was thinking about getting some balls and just going to a friday service, if they would let me.
hear things first hand....

I don't see why they wouldn't. As long as you weren't there to cause a ruckus.

[Dorothy Wood]

I think that non-white people are reluctant to protest things because they will be targeted either by the police, or by the group they are protesting. I know that when some of my friends got arrested while protesting the war before it started a few years ago, the people that were not white were held for days longer. My friend (who is cambodian-american) was in jail for a week, when everyone else in the group he was arrested with got released after a couple of days.

[Bob]

I think that non-white people are reluctant to protest things because they will be targeted either by the police, or by the group they are protesting. I know that when some of my friends got arrested while protesting the war before it started a few years ago, the people that were not white were held for days longer. My friend (who is cambodian-american) was in jail for a week, when everyone else in the group he was arrested with got released after a couple of days.

i was wondering about that too. do you think peaceful muslims might be too afraid to protest? i mean, in this day and age, some people might get nervous if they see a large group of muslims taking to the streets, no matter what they're protesting. it seems like a fairly inoffensive protest, i mean they'd be protesting AGAINST the violent muslims that are making everyone nervous, but still...i wouldn't underestimate the ability of people to misinterpret and overreact.

[HEIRESS]

note to self *next time I go to the states do not wear a brown head scarf over my dirty hair because I will get tagged for secondary baggage check and be delayed because I apparently looked potentially muslim*

:mad: :mad:

[DroppinScience]

Rock,

Wanted to thank you for the insights. Sometimes it feels like most of us here (i.e. non-Muslim) are at a big disadvantage when it comes to speaking on this, due to a lack of direct experience.

So it's always good to hear things from another perspective. (y)

[HEIRESS]

LOL darn tootin

I shit you not

happened to me less than a month ago

[gorilla]

"Those who give up liberty for security, deserve neither"

Is Benjamin Franklin not Thomas Jefferson.

[TimDoolan]

We can't forget that non-arabs can be muslim terrorists, like that Jose Pedilla guy and Walker the Taliban ranger.

[yeahwho]

"The Bank of England said it had frozen the accounts of 19 people arrested Thursday. The men, ranging in age from 17 to 35, had names of Muslim origin, many of which are common in Pakistan."

again, a terrorist attack driven by muslim men, most of middle eastern heritage and origin....

yet it's still "wrong" to profile them at airports, etc....


sensitivety over truth.


when will we learn.

I read one of the fellows names is Mohammad Goldstein.

[D_Raay]

I read one of the fellows names is Mohammad Goldstein.
;)