Canadian MPs want to remove Hizballah from Terror List

[SobaViolence]

BENT JBAIL, Lebanon - Dropping Hezbollah from a list of banned terrorist organizations in Canada would aid the cause of peace, according to two MPs now on a fact-finding mission to Lebanon.

When asked if he was in favour of Hezbollah being taken off the terror list, Etobicoke Liberal MP Borys Wrzesnewskyj said: "Yes, I would be." He likened the situation in the Middle East to Northern Ireland, where "if there wasn't the possibility for London to negotiate with the IRA, you'd still have bombings."

"Hezbollah has a political wing. They have members of parliament. They have two cabinet ministers. You want to encourage politicians in this military organization so that the centre of gravity shifts to them."
Ottawa Citizen (http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=518fea97-7b51-49c9-bad6-e38070739bae)

[Qdrop]

you fuckin canadians are unbelievable.

like our little mini France.

"hey Hezbolla, you're not terrorists anymore....you're freedom fighters, okay? now please come negotiate....pretty please...."


"Hezbollah has a political wing. They have members of parliament. They have two cabinet ministers. You want to encourage politicians in this military organization so that the centre of gravity shifts to them."

-sure, and part of that is also NOT TOLERATING THE MILITANT, TERRORIST ACTIVITY!
that's why you DISARM them, but allow them to keep all political factions.

[SobaViolence]

yeah, good luck disarming them.

could any american body disarm the NRA?
i don't see it any different than your right to bear arms. especially since they have an imposing threat to their land and loved ones.

[Qdrop]

yeah, good luck disarming them.if Israel takes the gloves off next time (which they will), not only will they be disarmed, there won't be many of them left to complain.
you think America is brutal with our military?....we ain't got nothing on Israel when it gets rolling...

could any american body disarm the NRA?
i don't see it any different than your right to bear arms. especially since they have an imposing threat to their land and loved ones.
not everyone has the right to bear arms...
all must register to do so....restrictions are in place and enforced.
privelages are lost.

if Johny Bill Hick goes and shoots up a mini-mart, we don't let him keep his gun.

[burbboi]

Every member sent on that 'fact finding mission' were members of opposition parties in parliament.

I don't trust Liberals as far as I can chuck them. The last thing the party would do is agree with the Conservatives even if it means going back on things they've stated previously. While in power the Liberals made a habit of assuming that the Canadian people had attention spans equivalent to goldfish. They had it right the first time around when they put Hezbollah on the terrorist list! I'd like to see what these tree-hugging hippies on that 'fact-finding mission' would have said if they had been exposed to a terrorist attack in their own country.

It's not a matter of how, it's when is it going to happen. You can't sit down and talk things out with people having the motives and morals these people do.

[SobaViolence]

how that hard-on for Harper keeping up?

[SobaViolence]

if Israel takes the gloves off next time (which they will), not only will they be disarmed, there won't be many of them left to complain.
you think America is brutal with our military?....we ain't got nothing on Israel when it gets rolling...


i don't doubt they are ruthless assholes, but they've consolidated Hizballah's power and spread their popularity all over the world.

and after a month of fighting, they fired the most rockets into Israel on the last day...even after 1000 casualties, they only increased their launches.

and Israel didn't even retrieve the 2 abducted soldiers that started this whole calamity.

[Qdrop]

i don't doubt they are ruthless assholes, but they've consolidated Hizballah's power and spread their popularity all over the world.

and after a month of fighting, they fired the most rockets into Israel on the last day...even after 1000 casualties, they only increased their launches.

and Israel didn't even retrieve the 2 abducted soldiers that started this whole calamity.

this is all because they agreed to the cease fire, AND because they put this operation together rather quickly and with limited firepower and supplies (of which the soldiers are currently mega-pissed off about btw)....
the next round will be an all out ground sweep.
Southern Lebenon will be a parking lot...worse than it is now...

[STANKY808]

Those MPs have now retracted what they said.

http://www.canada.com/cityguides/winnipeg/info/story.html?id=a11201b4-02c8-4e1d-934f-34f139fb64c4&k=25098

Q, it seems like you would really like to see Isreal go in a wipe them out, is this the case?

And if they do - given what's happened in Iraq, do you think this would be a cake walk for the IDF?

And as for the attack being put together quickly, I have read otherwise...

According to a Middle East expert with knowledge of the current thinking of both the Israeli and the U.S. governments, Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah—and shared it with Bush Administration officials—well before the July 12th kidnappings.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact

[drizl]

this is all because they agreed to the cease fire, AND because they put this operation together rather quickly and with limited firepower and supplies (of which the soldiers are currently mega-pissed off about btw)....
the next round will be an all out ground sweep.
Southern Lebenon will be a parking lot...worse than it is now...


you are clueless q. i mean, you argue your points, and you pretend that you have it all figured out, but really, quit fooling yourself.

what is terrorism? is it when innocent people are targeted and killed? well, if we look at the numbers, then the united states and israel are two of the largest terrorist organizations in the world....or maybe we can just count them as one together.

the issue here is diplomacy. saying tht we will not negotiate with any terrorist organizations is just an excuse to create more war, conflict and destruction. there are other alternatives. imagine how much things would change if we actually had someone genuine in office, who would sit down at the table with everyone and actually try and solve the problems rather than exploit them. im not saying this person would solve the problems, but they sure as shit would ease the tensions. it really is up to the us to make this work, to bring peace to the region, to stop destroying un-resolutions and peace.

[Qdrop]

Q, it seems like you would really like to see Isreal go in a wipe them out, is this the case?
i don't fully support either side.
but i had to choose...yes, i'd side with israel.
i think much of the world muslim community is among the most violent and ignorant in the world- owing most of that to rather impoverisehd conditions, environment, etc....but regardless.
the 2 sides will never cohabitate...
one side needs to be wiped off the face of the earth.

stupid fuckin religion.


And if they do - given what's happened in Iraq, do you think this would be a cake walk for the IDF?
cake walk? no.
but i think you'd see the israelis going balls out....with far less discrimination than the US has shown in the middle east.
and many think the US has shown very little discriminiation in collateral damage, etc..

i think Israel would make the US look like the Red Cross in comparison.


And as for the attack being put together quickly, I have read otherwise...

According to a Middle East expert with knowledge of the current thinking of both the Israeli and the U.S. governments, Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah—and shared it with Bush Administration officials—well before the July 12th kidnappings.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact
i'm just referancing ACTUAL interviews with Israeli soldiers on TV (NBC), and some reports i've read online....
i was under the impression that many in the IDF were rather pissed at the restrictions and lack of support and firepower they had to deal with.

[Qdrop]

you are clueless q. i mean, you argue your points, and you pretend that you have it all figured out, but really, quit fooling yourself. blah blah...
empty rhetoric...
you're just emulating other posters styles/remarks you have seen on this and other message boards.
ape.

what is terrorism? is it when innocent people are targeted and killed? well, if we look at the numbers, then the united states and israel are two of the largest terrorist organizations in the world....or maybe we can just count them as one together. this is a very long discussion topic, if you really want to get into this...fine.
it's not about numbers, it's about intent.


the issue here is diplomacy. saying tht we will not negotiate with any terrorist organizations is just an excuse to create more war, conflict and destruction. and you dont' think acknowledging and negotiating with terrorists wouldn't embolden them? make them feel that more justified and empowered?

[drizl]

i think much of the world muslim community is among the most violent and ignorant in the world- owing most of that to rather impoverisehd conditions, environment, etc....but regardless.
the 2 sides will never cohabitate...
one side needs to be wiped off the face of the earth.

stupid fuckin religion.




that is a terribly misinformed statement, and totally ignorant. your conclusions on the middle east are ridiculous. you really shouldnt even talk about it because you end up just making yourself look like a total jackass.

[Qdrop]

that is a terribly misinformed statement, and totally ignorant. your conclusions on the middle east are ridiculous. you really shouldnt even talk about it because you end up just making yourself look like a total jackass.

again with the aping.


obviously the majority of the muslim world community are not fanatic violent fundamentalists...but those that don't pick up arms and bombs, don't seem to speak out or stand up against it.

funny, Hinduism is among the largest religions on the planet as well....many of it's followers are among the most empoverished and desperate....why does this religious entity not foster terrorism and violence? while geography and economic status plays a role...there obviously is a differance in Islam...an engrained teaching of violence and intolerance on some level. even those that do not engage in it, don't do much to stop it.

and no, i don't think christianity is much better....

[drizl]

blah blah...
empty rhetoric...
you're just emulating other posters styles/remarks you have seen on this and other message boards.
ape.

this is a very long discussion topic, if you really want to get into this...fine.
it's not about numbers, it's about intent.

and you dont' think acknowledging and negotiating with terrorists wouldn't embolden them? make them feel that more justified and empowered?


okay, so a us bomber drops a smart bomb on a house and kills a family of 13, sucks for them we were only trying to liberate them. now multiply that by 1000, sucks for them, they were almost liberated.
a terrorist explodes a car bomb and kills 60 at a market, sucks for them, they were only trying to get some food.

whats the difference Q? the difference as we subconsiously understand it is that a terrorist fights unconventional warfare, makes his/her own bombs, attacks guerilla style. and liberation means going in with tanks bombs and guns and killing 1000 times the amount of innocent people. its not a lengthy discussion, its a matter of getting beyond the politricks and wordplay.

and as for negotiating with terrorists...here we go again on defining a terorrist organization. bush might declare greenpeace a terrorist organization, and in that case, youd probably be backing him up again. terrorism is a word, its just another way of describing violence, or the act of violence. it is no different from war, war is just another word as well. when those words are used to manipulate the public mind, we have people like you running around and reinforcing their bullshit.

what about diplomacy q? whats the quickest way to make a "terrorist" go away? is it by blowing them and their families, their countries and beliefs into kingdom come and inspiring generations upon generations down the line to the same ends?

or is the quickest way to delete their cause by finding mutual solutions to the situations. king george knows the answer, thats why immediatly after 9-11 we embarked on the war on terror, which as we were told would take a long time, with no end in site, and cost many lives for our freedom. fuck that jazz.

and do you really care what goes on in the middle east? you just want to justify this bullshit and consider muslims to be barbaric murderers and terrorist. what good is that? what are you doing to help the situation?

[drizl]

again with the aping.


obviously the majority of the muslim world community are not fanatic violent fundamentalists...but those that don't pick up arms and bombs, don't seem to speak out or stand up against it.

funny, Hinduism is among the largest religions on the planet as well....many of it's followers are among the most empoverished and desperate....why does this religious entity not foster terrorism and violence? while geography and economic status plays a role...there obviously is a differance in Islam...an engrained teaching of violence and intolerance on some level. even those that do not engage in it, don't do much to stop it.

and no, i don't think christianity is much better....



Q there has been (by your defintion) terrorism going on in kashmir for decades now. you dont hear about it because you dont pay attention to it, or at least, the media machines you pay attention to are focused on the political aims of the current neocon administration.

[drizl]

and you dont hear about the muslims who protest the violence because the media doesnt care to cover it, the government doesnt want you feeling any sympathy for any of them.

[Qdrop]

Q there has been (by your defintion) terrorism going on in kashmir for decades now. you dont hear about it because you dont pay attention to it, or at least, the media machines you pay attention to are focused on the political aims of the current neocon administration.

what's MY definition again?

[Qdrop]

and you dont hear about the muslims who protest the violence because the media doesnt care to cover it, the government doesnt want you feeling any sympathy for any of them.

prove it.

[Qdrop]

okay, so a us bomber drops a smart bomb on a house and kills a family of 13, sucks for them we were only trying to liberate them. now multiply that by 1000, sucks for them, they were almost liberated.
a terrorist explodes a car bomb and kills 60 at a market, sucks for them, they were only trying to get some food.

what was the intent by either side.
which side WANTED to kill innocents? and why?

the "differance" starts there.


whats the difference Q? the difference as we subconsiously understand it is that a terrorist fights unconventional warfare, makes his/her own bombs, attacks guerilla style. and liberation means going in with tanks bombs and guns and killing 1000 times the amount of innocent people. its not a lengthy discussion, its a matter of getting beyond the politricks and wordplay.
intent.
targets.

there is stark differance.


and as for negotiating with terrorists...here we go again on defining a terorrist organization. bush might declare greenpeace a terrorist organization, and in that case, youd probably be backing him up again. terrorism is a word, its just another way of describing violence, or the act of violence. it is no different from war, war is just another word as well. when those words are used to manipulate the public mind, we have people like you running around and reinforcing their bullshit.
if that's the case...would you consider joining Al Queda? why or why not?
you certainly don't consider them evil, just misunderstood, right?

if you had to pick a side, which would you choose?


what about diplomacy q? whats the quickest way to make a "terrorist" go away? is it by blowing them and their families, their countries and beliefs into kingdom come and inspiring generations upon generations down the line to the same ends?

or is the quickest way to delete their cause by finding mutual solutions to the situations. king george knows the answer, thats why immediatly after 9-11 we embarked on the war on terror, which as we were told would take a long time, with no end in site, and cost many lives for our freedom.
the elimination of religion through education.

middle east countries investing in thier infrastructure to produce self-sustaining, industrial economies that raise the standard of living.

[STANKY808]

I do think the Tamil Tigers are a Hindu organization. And there has been plenty of Hindu vs Muslim violence in India perpetrated by both sides.

And I'd have to say I've seen and read of quite a few of individual muslim leaders and groups of muslims speaking out against terrorism. If you haven't seen it perhaps there is a reason.

You could start here - seems like a lot of muslims are decrying terrorism.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

[roosta]

negotiating with the IRA brought peace, so its not a completely bonkers idea.

[Qdrop]

I do think the Tamil Tigers are a Hindu organization. And there has been plenty of Hindu vs Muslim violence in India perpetrated by both sides.

i'll look it up...though we both know i'm not going to find incidents/numbers comprable to muslim violence.

and it gets a little dicey when are talking about regional conflicts with jews vs. muslims, or Hindu vs. Muslim...
once regional violence is instigated (and the debate on WHO started it will rage on for eternity) it just becomes quagmire of tit-for-tat territorial defense and vengence. both sides become the mutual aggressors.

but ask yourself,
do Hindus or Jews currently act out global terrorist attacks on non-hindu or non-jews for the sake of religious superiority?

And I'd have to say I've seen and read of quite a few of individual muslim leaders and groups of muslims speaking out against terrorism. If you haven't seen it perhaps there is a reason. such as?

You could start here - seems like a lot of muslims are decrying terrorism.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm
that's a great sight...

but where are the public outcries?
if there are millions upon millions upon millions of peaceful muslims...why are they not demonstrating in gigantic crowds in front of mosques that teach violence?
where are the massive public demonstrations against such violence?
where is the "muslim ghandi" so to speak?
such gatherings could change how the world view islam as a whole....

[Qdrop]

negotiating with the IRA brought peace, so its not a completely bonkers idea.
so did new leadership in the IRA as i understand it....no?

[STANKY808]

I'm sorry that list of imams and scholars is not good enough for you.

However, considering that a lot of the world's muslim population live in pretty dictictorial countries it's not that surprising that huge demonstartions haven't taken place.

And how many people have been killed by muslim terrorists since it became a recognized issue in the west? Do you have some sort of statistic that shows there are so many more victims of one terrorist group vs another?

[EN[i]GMA]

negotiating with the IRA brought peace, so its not a completely bonkers idea.

But the IRA didn't want the complete and total destruction of Great Britain.

Many terrorists do want the destruction of Isreal. They don't think it even has a right to exist, period.

What's there to decide diplomatically? How can you solve that without fighting?

[Qdrop]

I'm sorry that list of imams and scholars is not good enough for you.

However, considering that a lot of the world's muslim population live in pretty dictictorial countries it's not that surprising that huge demonstartions haven't taken place. so we should all just give them the benifit of the doubt?
assume that they would publicaly protest and shut down those mosques if they could...but....they can't.

i have a pretty similar view against christianity.
like islam, only a fringe of christians really pick up guns and shoot abortion doctors, or tie thier religion to anti-political views and blow up federal buildings.
but i don't think enough christians actively stand up against such people....or the jimmy falwells and pat robertsons....

and christianity in the US is too often used as a political weapon...and is used by the gov't and military, not to justify, but embolden some military actions.
and i think that, like the "peacefull muslims", not enough demonstration against such actions takes place...because too many really aren't against it.
they may not scream out "kill all the non-christians" (though some do), but they seem not mind it...perhaps even internally support it.

i don't equate the inundation of violence in christianity to islam...but i don't see it too far behind at times.

i think christian violence is second only to islam....

[STANKY808]

GMA']But the IRA didn't want the complete and total destruction of Great Britain.

Many terrorists do want the destruction of Isreal. They don't think it even has a right to exist, period.

What's there to decide diplomatically? How can you solve that without fighting?

I thought that's where negotiation comes in. You know, the give and take from two extremes until an acceptable middle ground is reached.

[drizl]

what was the intent by either side.
which side WANTED to kill innocents? and why?

the "differance" starts there.


intent.
targets.

there is stark differance.


if that's the case...would you consider joining Al Queda? why or why not?
you certainly don't consider them evil, just misunderstood, right?

if you had to pick a side, which would you choose?


the elimination of religion through education.

middle east countries investing in thier infrastructure to produce self-sustaining, industrial economies that raise the standard of living.


there is no difference in intent! one side wants to kill the other! its war, terrosim is war war is terrorism. each inflicts terror upon the population. targets....remember that first night of the iraq war, what was it called....SHOCK AND AWE!? do you remember watching the skyline of the city as bombs dropped in from every angle. and what are the first targets that we chose? electricity, water, and the rest of the social infrastructure, just like israel did to lebanon. that is an attack on the people.

no i wouldnt consider joining al qaeda. thats not my fight, thats theres. and i dont necessarily agree with them for what they are doing. but i will say this, al qaeda is no worse than this administration is. in fact, i would say that this administration is causing much more death and destruction, and has ruined entire countries, entire economies, life and the environment
just look at afghanistan and iraq, and tell me they are better off now.


peaceful muslims (http://www.mpfweb.org/200110_asa.html)


dont be a prick and stereotype muslims. and to say they should be wiped off the face of the earth....thats so pathetic, you should be ashamed of yourself.

you need to understand the greater history of that region. you need to understand that they have been at war with western powers in many forms, for many reasons for many years. imagine your country being occuppied continuisly by other countries like russia, britain and the us. you would be pissed to my friend. imagine your neighboring countries having to deal with israel and their military constantly. have some empathy tirdsmoker.

[drizl]

so we should all just give them the benifit of the doubt?
assume that they would publicaly protest and shut down those mosques if they could...but....they can't.

i have a pretty similar view against christianity.
like islam, only a fringe of christians really pick up guns and shoot abortion doctors, or tie thier religion to anti-political views and blow up federal buildings.
but i don't think enough christians actively stand up against such people....or the jimmy falwells and pat robertsons....

and christianity in the US is too often used as a political weapon...and is used by the gov't and military, not to justify, but embolden some military actions.
and i think that, like the "peacefull muslims", not enough demonstration against such actions takes place...because too many really aren't against it.
they may not scream out "kill all the non-christians" (though some do), but they seem not mind it...perhaps even internally support it.

i don't equate the inundation of violence in christianity to islam...but i don't see it too far behind at times.

i think christian violence is second only to islam....

you just continue to contradict yourself over and over and over

[EN[i]GMA]

I thought that's where negotiation comes in. You know, the give and take from two extremes until an acceptable middle ground is reached.

What's there to negotiate?

There's a contingent of people, some terrorists, who wish to see Isreal gone completely.

There is no acceptable middle ground. They hate Israel.

Maybe not all of them, but certainly some of them will stop at nothing.

[STANKY808]

Well fuck it then. Just kill them all.

[Qdrop]

there is no difference in intent! and you say i'm ignorant and blind.

one side wants to kill the other! its war, terrosim is war war is terrorism. each inflicts terror upon the population. targets....remember that first night of the iraq war, what was it called....SHOCK AND AWE!? do you remember watching the skyline of the city as bombs dropped in from every angle. and what are the first targets that we chose? electricity, water, and the rest of the social infrastructure, just like israel did to lebanon. that is an attack on the people. the intent of each makes all the differance.
sure, lines can be blurred... but come the fuck on:

no i wouldnt consider joining al qaeda. thats not my fight, thats theres. that's the only reason? wtf is wrong with you?

and i dont necessarily agree with them for what they are doing. you don't neccessarily....

but i will say this, al qaeda is no worse than this administration is. dude....just die.

in fact, i would say that this administration is causing much more death and destruction, and has ruined entire countries, entire economies, life and the environment yeah, big bad america. what country are you from anyway?

just look at afghanistan and iraq, and tell me they are better off now. yeah, that's america's fault. we MADE those insurgents come in and create havok. it's our fault.
trying to set up a democracy...what the fuck is wrong with us?

the lies and deciet used to get us into Iraq were terrible.
the post-war stategy to keep the peace was virtually non-existant.

but we didn't create the insurgency....that was unavoidable...
we are not creating the near civil war atmosphere...

or perhaps we did.
perhaps we are learning the only way to keep a bunch of uneducated, ignorant religious zealots from blowing each other up is to keep them under despotic control...
and when we removed saddam....we removed that.


dont be a prick and stereotype muslims. and to say they should be wiped off the face of the earth....thats so pathetic, you should be ashamed of yourself.
shut the fuck up, you spin doctor.
i was talking about the hopelessnes of jewish-muslim peace..and said one wiping the other off the face of the earth would be the only chance for peace, ironically.

fucking liar.

you need to understand the greater history of that region. you need to understand that they have been at war with western powers in many forms, for many reasons for many years. imagine your country being occuppied continuisly by other countries like russia, britain and the us. you would be pissed to my friend. imagine your neighboring countries having to deal with israel and their military constantly. have some empathy tirdsmoker. i need to understand?
some fuckin 19 year old college twit is trying to tell ME what i should understand.
you radical tinhat coke-head...
that's fuckin rich.

as if i have no knowledge of world history.
hey shit head...get a fuckin clue....all those little liberal art electives you're taking right now in between toking weed and posting on your blogs, are classes i aced 10 years ago....

[drizl]

GMA']What's there to negotiate?

There's a contingent of people, some terrorists, who wish to see Isreal gone completely.

There is no acceptable middle ground. They hate Israel.

Maybe not all of them, but certainly some of them will stop at nothing.


and the israelis will stop at nothing to stop them as well. israel is smart, and careful. put yourself in the shoes of a palestinian, and one day israel comes in and starts stealing your property, bulldozing your house and kidnapping your leaders.
bottom line, israel would not be there if it were not for the u.s. and england. and if we would just let them be and stop sticking our nose in the situation i have faith the situation would resolve itself. you see, we choose to be involved there, and we choose to take advantage of the situation, israel is so invested in our congress and leadership that we have no reason not to support them. they are fighting an important front in the line of the war on terror....

to say that one side is better or deserves more than the other is bullshit. they have been fighting ever since israel showed up. and as long as israel is there, they will continue to fight.

[Qdrop]

you just continue to contradict yourself over and over and over
will you stop emulating posts from other message board debates...

[Qdrop]

and as long as israel is there, they will continue to fight.

hmmm....your true colors coming through, mel gibson?

what are you implying? hopelessness of the conflict....or that israel needs to go?

[EN[i]GMA]

and the israelis will stop at nothing to stop them as well.

Well no shit.

israel is smart, and careful. put yourself in the shoes of a palestinian, and one day israel comes in and starts stealing your property, bulldozing your house and kidnapping your leaders.


bottom line, israel would not be there if it were not for the u.s. and england. and if we would just let them be and stop sticking our nose in the situation i have faith the situation would resolve itself.

Of course you do.

Because you don't actually know anything about the subject, and prefer to leave it up to faith.

"If things went how I want them to, I believe things would be OK."

Really, you have no way of knowing, and indeed no good reason to believe, things would be better.

and as long as israel is there, they will continue to fight.

Exactly.

That's the problem.

Does Israel not have a right to self-determination? Isn't that a human right?

[drizl]

GMA']Well no shit.





Of course you do.

Because you don't actually know anything about the subject, and prefer to leave it up to faith.

"If things went how I want them to, I believe things would be OK."

Really, you have no way of knowing, and indeed no good reason to believe, things would be better.



Exactly.

That's the problem.

Does Israel not have a right to self-determination? Isn't that a human right?


im not saying that the situation would be any better. especially for israel. im just saying that israel is held up by the us, and that our support for their cause is only making the situation worse. if their lobby stopped buying our congresspeople, and we stopped shipping them hi-tech weapons, they wouldnt stand a chance. furthermore, if we took it a different direction, and stopped halting un resolutions aimed at laying a foundation for peace in the region, and stoped supporting their military, tensions would ease.

sure israel has a right to self determination, sure palestinians have a right to self determination.


in no way am i saying that things would be a o k if wed just make an effort. but i think the situation would sure be a lot better if we (the usa) werent so insistent on exploiting this conflict and cashing in off it.

[drizl]

and you say i'm ignorant and blind.

the intent of each makes all the differance.
sure, lines can be blurred... but come the fuck on:

that's the only reason? wtf is wrong with you?

you don't neccessarily....

dude....just die.

yeah, big bad america. what country are you from anyway?

yeah, that's america's fault. we MADE those insurgents come in and create havok. it's our fault.
trying to set up a democracy...what the fuck is wrong with us?

the lies and deciet used to get us into Iraq were terrible.
the post-war stategy to keep the peace was virtually non-existant.

but we didn't create the insurgency....that was unavoidable...
we are not creating the near civil war atmosphere...

or perhaps we did.
perhaps we are learning the only way to keep a bunch of uneducated, ignorant religious zealots from blowing each other up is to keep them under despotic control...
and when we removed saddam....we removed that.

shut the fuck up, you spin doctor.
i was talking about the hopelessnes of jewish-muslim peace..and said one wiping the other off the face of the earth would be the only chance for peace, ironically.

fucking liar.

i need to understand?
some fuckin 19 year old college twit is trying to tell ME what i should understand.
you radical tinhat coke-head...
that's fuckin rich.

as if i have no knowledge of world history.
hey shit head...get a fuckin clue....all those little liberal art electives you're taking right now in between toking weed and posting on your blogs, are classes i aced 10 years ago....

read pnac dipshit. and all this will make sense to you. we knew the sectarian climate in iraq before the war, we knew how saddam dealt with it, we knew the balance of power and who was who. we knew damn well iraq would fall into civil war, and that this fact alone would be bushs' excuse to keep us in iraq even longer, so that pnac could be further realized.

radical tinhat cokehead? 19 yr old college twit? man fuck you, did you ever go to school? did you ever learn to think for yourself? i have my degree, im done with school. and i understand that peace is the only way forward. your outlook seeks destruction of the arab world, turning it into a giant fucking strip mall for exploitation and globalization, destroying their culture, environment (DU weapons) and societies and forcing them to accept our ways of life. just as we did to africa, to native americans, as britain did to china and on and on. this is the story of civilization- war corruption greed and fear. fuck it and rise above, seek truth and understanding. see both sides and empathize

[drizl]

terrorism in iraq:

There Are Three Distinct Types of Terrorism in Iraq, All Directly or Indirectly Connected to the Occupation

Terrorism involves attacking civilians to force them to abandon their support for your enemy, or to drive them away from a coveted territory.

The original terrorists in Iraq were the military and civilian officials of the Bush administration - starting with their "shock and awe" bombing campaign that destroyed Iraqi infrastructure in order to "undermine civilian morale." The American form of terrorism continued with the wholesale destruction of most of Falluja and parts of other Sunni cities, designed to pacify the "hot beds" of insurgency, while teaching the residents of those areas that, if they "harbor the insurgents," they will surely "suffer the consequences."

At the individual level, this program of terror was continued through the invasions of, and demolishing of, homes (or, in some cases, parts of neighborhoods) where insurgents were believed to be hidden among a larger civilian population, thus spreading the "lesson" about "harboring terrorists" to everyone in the Sunni sections of the country. Generating a violent death rate of at least 18,000 per year, the American drumbeat of terror has contributed more than its share to the recently escalating civilian death toll, which reached a record 3,149 in the official count during July. It is unfortunately accurate to characterize the American occupation of Sunni Iraq as a reign of terror.

The Sunni terrorists like those led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi have utilized the suicide car bomb to generate the most widely publicized violence in Iraq - hundreds of civilian casualties each month resulting from attacks on restaurants, markets, and mosques where large number of Shia congregate. At the beginning of the U.S. occupation, car bombs were nonexistent; they only became common when a tiny proportion of the Sunni resistance movement became convinced that the Shia were the main domestic support for the American occupation. (As far as we can tell, the vast majority of those fighting the Americans oppose such terrorists and have sometimes fought with them.) As al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri wrote, these attacks were justified by "the treason of the Shia and their collusion with the Americans." As if to prove him correct, the number of such attacks tripled to current levels of about 70 per month after the Shia-dominated Iraqi government supported the American devastation of Falluja in November 2004.

The Sunni terrorists work with the same terrorist logic that the Americans have applied in Iraq: Attacks on civilians are meant to terrify them into not supporting the enemy. There is a belief, of course, among the leadership of the Sunni terrorists that, ultimately, only the violent suppression or expulsion of the Shia is acceptable. But as Zawahiri himself stated, the "majority of Muslims don't comprehend this and possibly could not even imagine it." So the practical justification for such terrorism lies in the more immediate association of the Shia with the hated occupation.

The final link in the terrorist chain can also be traced back to the occupation. In January of 2005, Newsweek broke the story that the U.S. was establishing (Shiite) "death squads" within the Iraqi Ministry of Interior, modeled after the assassination teams that the CIA had helped organize in El Salvador during the 1980s. These death squads were intended to assassinate activists and supporters of the Sunni resistance. Particularly after the bombing of the Golden Dome, an important Shia shrine in Samarra, in March 2006, they became a fixture in Baghdad, where thousands of corpses - virtually all Sunni men - have been found with signs of torture, including electric-drill holes, in their bodies and bullet holes in their heads. Here, again, the logic is the same: to use terror to stop the Sunni community from nurturing and harboring both the terrorist car bombers and the anti-American resistance fighters.

While there is disagreement about whether the Americans, the Shia-controlled Iraqi Ministry of Defense, or the Shia political parties should shoulder the most responsibility for loosing these death squads on Baghdad, one conclusion is indisputable: They have earned their place in the ignominious triumvirate of Iraqi terrorism.

One might say that the war has converted one of President Bush's biggest lies into an unimaginably horrible truth: Iraq is now the epicenter of worldwide terrorism.



just read this from that (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/082106M.shtml) and thought it pertinent to our discussion on terrorism

[Qdrop]

read pnac dipshit. and all this will make sense to you.

you naive little shit...
we've discussed the PNAC ad nauseum on this board, before your little radical ass even registered.

"but look at that PEARL HARBOR comment...it's all there, man...they planned 9/11, man...blah blah..."

and as Enigma stated over a year ago "yeah, cause the PNAC would list out there top-secret agenda on the front page of thier website".

jesus, man...you keep spouting out these topcis and referances as if we all haven't seen, read and discussed them a hundered times over...
PNAC, 9/11 myths, Northwoods, etc etc...

understand this...there is NOTHING you got that we ain't already discected on this board. you have no untapped knowledge or mind blowing revalations that weren't already posted back in 2004.

you think you're a breathe of fresh air....you just a broken record to us.
understand that.

radical tinhat cokehead? 19 yr old college twit? man fuck you, did you ever go to school? yep, 2 degrees (bachelors and masters).

did you ever learn to think for yourself? i have my degree, im done with school.and your comments about having to go to class last week? night school for janitorial supply technician?

and i understand that peace is the only way forward. your outlook seeks destruction of the arab world, turning it into a giant fucking strip mall for exploitation and globalization, destroying their culture, environment (DU weapons) and societies and forcing them to accept our ways of life.
where are you getting that from? why do you continue to force these stereoypes upon me.
you consider me some kind of poster boy for everything republican and neo-con...
fucker, you have no idea about me....

[drizl]

haha


if i ever mentioned northwoods- which i dont think i did, but if i did, it was only a passing reference.

i dont care if you have discussed pnac with everyone else. and i make no references to the "new pearl harbor" quote. they make their agenda public because they truly believe in it, and they are truly carrying it out. they dont feel the need to hide this.
pnac was and is a think tank for foriegn policy. its authors are genuinely concerned for american security/superiority. their bank accounts depend on it. and they might be right in some ways- maybe china and the situation in southeast asia might be something to keep an eye on in the future. but the rest of their ideas are basically radical and dangerous. they wont even attempt peace, they give no credit to humanity, and they will only use force, preemptively, to accompish their goals.
that is where i believe they are wrong. there is no possibility for peace in their plan.

i site my sources because it gives me credibility. it shows im not just talking out of my ass, and maybe if someone is interested they have a way to backtrack and find out more about what im talking about, even if they want to argue with me about it, i put it there so people have a chance to see where im getting my information.

im not trying to be a breath of fresh air, and i could care less if im a broken record to you. this shit is like therapy for me. i see and feel how fucked up the world is, and i have to let it out. i have many avenues for doing that, but this is fun because i get to discuss this with total fucking idiots like yourself. its like....practice in a way. the more i debate it, the stronger i become in my beliefs and my ability to back them up, the more educated i become on the subjects and the more passion i feel. so fuck off with your "its already been debated" pop-political rhetoric. you are a tool my friend, you are a good little american. play nice, go to bed early, and look both ways when you cross the street.

i dont know what you are talking about in regards to class....im out of school. 2 degrees? a bachelors in being a peice of shit, and a masters in regurgitating poop out of your mouth? lol

my comment about you wanting the destruction of the arab world comes from your comments. you have no respect for the muslim world, you believe in the jewish state, you believe in the war on terrorism. ask any muslim person what all of that means. you believe that america is going to liberate all those people dont you? or at least thats what you think should happen. you said something about how they need to become industrialized so they can get out of poverty. do you know what poverty means? do you really think they are impoverished over there? well, maybe after we have bombed their entire country and they have no access to clean water, food or electricity. you think that america is right, that we are the best, and you want that for others. good american.

[drizl]

where are you getting that from? why do you continue to force these stereoypes upon me.
you consider me some kind of poster boy for everything republican and neo-con...
fucker, you have no idea about me....


i know who you are, and i am comfortable with it. im not scared of you, and i understand where you are coming from. theres thousands of people like you in this world, hundreds of thousands, and thats why we are headed in such a piss poor direction. you are worthless, you're a scumbag and your full of shit. fucker:D

[Qdrop]

i know who you are, and i am comfortable with it. im not scared of you, and i understand where you are coming from. theres thousands of people like you in this world, hundreds of thousands, and thats why we are headed in such a piss poor direction. you are worthless, you're a scumbag and your full of shit. fucker:D

tinhat pothead.

YOUR TURN!

and stop using smiley icons like a bitch.



sadly, you love me.
i'm one of like 3 people on this board who even converse with you...and i'm already tired of it.

i'm 1/3 of your audience, loser.

[drizl]

awww thats so sweet. im not here to make friends.

[Qdrop]

awww thats so sweet. im not here to make friends.

friends shmeinds...

without me, you'd pretty much be talking to the wall.

have you noticed how even the liberals on this board have pretty much distanced themselves from you?

whatever man, i can just put you on ignore....and you can continue to have thread after thread with 0 replies stack up in the cue.

talking to the wall....

[drizl]

that wont stop me from posting my opinoins q.

[Qdrop]

that wont stop me from posting my opinoins q.

why bother if no ones reading them?

this isn't an online journal, man.

[gorilla]

i know who you are, and i am comfortable with it. im not scared of you, and i understand where you are coming from. theres thousands of people like you in this world, hundreds of thousands, and thats why we are headed in such a piss poor direction. you are worthless, you're a scumbag and your full of shit. fucker:D

I sized up Q, and yes your right there are many like him.
He'll probably get married one day, raise a family like a man should and continue the cycle of life.

I can see you Driz old and lonely beggin for someone to listen to your take on things.

Let's make a point to check back in say 20 years, you can prove me wrong then, with your own facts, and not something you expect because of what you read.

[drizl]

grrrummmblleegiidddyyerrrrdiiiiigggaaa

[Funkaloyd]

Did he just call me a nigga?

[drizl]

streetball yall

[Qdrop]

Did he just call me a nigga?

he seems to have hard-on for doing that.

the kid is fuckin wacked...

[Schmeltz]

you fuckin canadians are unbelievable.

like our little mini France.


Jesus, Q. Every time it looks like you've finally hit the bottom, you pull the shovel out again.

[Qdrop]

Jesus, Q. Every time it looks like you've finally hit the bottom, you pull the shovel out again.

your metaphor leaves me wanting...

[drizl]

what a prick

[Qdrop]

what a prick

well, at least you didn't call me "nigga" again....

[drizl]

i didnt call anyone a nigga, i just said, peace out my nigga. q you're such a racist:rolleyes:

[Qdrop]

i didnt call anyone a nigga, i just said, peace out my nigga. q you're such a racist:rolleyes:

you throw the word "nigga" around and I'M the racist?

seriously man, put the bong down....

[drizl]

nigga please