How Different Would The World Be

[Lex Diamonds]

Had George W Bush lost the 2000 election?

[drizl]

HE DID!

[QueenAdrock]

ohhhhhhhhh snap!

And yeah, no Iraq war. We would have gone to Afghanistan, but the war mongerers that kept pushing Iraq were Wolfowitz and some other dude I don't remember. Bush's advisors/colleagues/confidants. People that would not have been around Gore.

Al Franken predicted that if Gore won, our troops would be triumphantly marching home from Darfur as we speak. Not sure about that one, but a nice image nonetheless.

[drizl]

i like that al frankin guy, i miss democracy now too. used to get it everyday out in northern california, but here in chicago...no dice.

[enree erzweglle]

I've often wondered that if Bush had lost the election, would 9/11 have happened or happened in the way it did. I suppose the planning for it was well underway long before the election itself, but I still wonder about it and I wonder what the democratic reaction to it would have been. Would we be where we are wrt Iraq had Gore taken office.

[Pres Zount]

I'm pretty sure nothing majorly different would have happenend.

[drizl]

everything that has happened has been pretty major, and id bet things would be a lot different. my own personal opinion- bush had to get in to office to play this whole thing out- but who knows.

[Schmeltz]

There would definitely have been a military reaction to September 11th, but I don't know what kind of shape it would have taken under Gore. Afghanistan would have been attacked for sure - but would it have been occupied, or would the operation have been more surgical? Maybe Gore would have focused on taking down key al-Qaeda leaders and then leaving the country still mostly in Taliban hands, but with a Northern Alliance-led insurgency gradually eroding their power thanks to vastly increased American funding and logistical support. I'm not sure which business interests backed Gore in that election, so it's hard to say.

But I do have a hard time believing that Gore would have been as susceptible as Bush to the notion of a war with Iraq. I think that if Bush had lost the 2000 election, the Iraq war would never have happened. Saddam Hussein would still be in power, and Iraq would be like North Korea - stable and orderly, but desperately impoverished and extremely repressed. Islamic fundamentalism would have had to look elsewhere for a new homeland - Pakistan might have become more extreme, leading to more friction with India. Or Somalia might have gone to the dogs sooner.

Tough to say, really.

In terms of my own locale: I bet Stephen Harper wouldn't have won that election, and Paul Martin would have been able to draw on a closer relationship with America in order to consolidate his own position.

[D_Raay]

What if Nader had won?

[DroppinScience]

And another thing to consider...

Would 9/11 have happened under Gore's watch?

[enree erzweglle]

Would 9/11 have happened under Gore's watch?I've wondered about this as well, but I think the attacks were planned long in advance of those elections. In other words, I don't think the attacks would have been called off had Gore won. Bush being in office was a boon to the attackers because I think that they were trying to provoke/incite the very reaction that they got.

I do think that Gore would have had a much more determinate plan of attack--the scope of the reaction would not have been as broad, I think, under him.

[QueenAdrock]

I've often wondered that if Bush had lost the election, would 9/11 have happened or happened in the way it did.

Well, Richard Clarke (counter-terrorism tzar of 30 years in the government) had been trying to get anti-terrorism meetings with Bush the day he stepped into office, to try and warn him about Al Qaeda and the threat that extremist Muslims posed. Clinton took Clarke seriously and scheduled meetings with him regularly. Bush kept putting him off and delaying it, and eventually sending one of his lower-level peons to meet with him, and even then Clarke said that no one took his warnings of Al Qaeda seriously. Ever wonder why Condi wasn't alarmed from the "Bin Laden determined to attack in the US" memo? They all had their heads up their asses, and didn't take the threat of terrorism seriously, whereas Clinton had. I believe that Gore knew of the imminent threat that Al Qaeda posed, and would have taken such memos seriously. Would it have stopped 9/11? There's no way to tell for sure - but shock would not have been a factor with Gore, and perhaps he could have curtailed it. He at least had a much higher chance of preventing it than Bush did, because he knew the level of severity.

[Lex Diamonds]

And another thing to consider...

Would 9/11 have happened under Gore's watch?
That was one of the main things I was thinking about. There was intelligence implying that it was going to happen, would Gore have been more astute and raised security? You know, instead of reading children's books upside down and looking like a monkey.

[QueenAdrock]

Like I said, Gore was more aware of the problem with Al Qaeda since he was in the Clinton administration, so he would understand the severity of the threat and therefore probably raised security levels.

[Echewta]

It would have happened regardless of who was president at the time. The wheels were in motion and it wasn't about a president. It was about a country.

[drizl]

the wheels were rolling, but bush and his cabinet were hell bent on ignoring the intelligence warnings, not only from the cia, but from several other foreign offices. they let it happen, and maybe even helped it happen.

[yeahwho]

I honestly believe we would be in a much better space. George W. Bush will go down as the worst president in history.

This is not some kneejerk off the cuff remark. We are up shitcreek currently, and the paddle is nowhere in sight.

[DroppinScience]

I've wondered about this as well, but I think the attacks were planned long in advance of those elections. In other words, I don't think the attacks would have been called off had Gore won. Bush being in office was a boon to the attackers because I think that they were trying to provoke/incite the very reaction that they got.

I do think that Gore would have had a much more determinate plan of attack--the scope of the reaction would not have been as broad, I think, under him.

No, I'm referring to whether or not the Gore administration would've foiled the plot. Obviously al-Qaeda was set to attack no matter who was in office. I'm asking whether they'd have to know how to stop it.

The Japanese would've bombed Pearl Harbor if Herbert Hoover was the President at the time. That wasn't the point...

[yeahwho]

No, I'm referring to whether or not the Gore administration would've foiled the plot. Obviously al-Qaeda was set to attack no matter who was in office. I'm asking whether they'd have to know how to stop it.

The Japanese would've bombed Pearl Harbor if Herbert Hoover was the President at the time. That wasn't the point...

The whole 9-11 scenario may have been much worse, from all the information gathered since 9-11 GWB was pretty close to the bone, actually flying out Bin Ladens and all those Saudis.

Heck most them terrorists hardly know Gore, if this is how they treat folks they know who knows how they'd treat a stranger.

just thinking out loud how safe I feel for my family with Bush at the helm.

durrrrrrr

[Schmeltz]

What if Nader had won?


American-made cars would have a fixed-barrier 60-mph collision protection mechanism, but 9/11 would still have happened.

[Tone Capone]

9/11 certainly would have still happened. Clinton knew that Bin Laden was a serious threat, so did Gore. Gore might have even continued the assassination attempts. The only maybe here is Iraq. And as much as I wanted Gore to win, Iraq is much BETTER with out Hussein and his family of savages "ruling" that country. That being said, if Africa had a lot of oil, we might be trying to save them too...:(

[QueenAdrock]

I don't think anyone can say that 9/11 was a certainty, because if Bush had taken the threats more seriously, who knows if we'd be able to stop it? There are terrorist plots stopped all the time - small and big. The liquid-bombers, shoe-bombers, and the Toronto terrorism plots were all stopped, due to us having higher security and our heads removed from our asses (for the most part). If we had taken the threat seriously, and treated the pre-9/11 world as we are now in the post-9/11 world, there's a possibility it could have been foiled. No one will ever know for sure.

And an interesting side fact - Nader had been rallying for reinforced steel doors to the cockpits of airplanes since the 1970's. He was shot down because there was no "need" for such reinforcements, but if he had won any elections and gotten his ideas implemented, there's a good chance that the terrorists would have been unable to storm the cockpits.

[Funkyfreshgrape]

HE DID!
I know Al Gore won.

[Funkyfreshgrape]

Now that would mean that Al Gore would president so he would be doing something about global warming! which bush doesn't give damn about global warming.

[yeahwho]

I don't think anyone can say that 9/11 was a certainty, because if Bush had taken the threats more seriously, who knows if we'd be able to stop it? There are terrorist plots stopped all the time - small and big. The liquid-bombers, shoe-bombers, and the Toronto terrorism plots were all stopped, due to us having higher security and our heads removed from our asses (for the most part). If we had taken the threat seriously, and treated the pre-9/11 world as we are now in the post-9/11 world, there's a possibility it could have been foiled. No one will ever know for sure.

And an interesting side fact - Nader had been rallying for reinforced steel doors to the cockpits of airplanes since the 1970's. He was shot down because there was no "need" for such reinforcements, but if he had won any elections and gotten his ideas implemented, there's a good chance that the terrorists would have been unable to storm the cockpits.

I agree alot with what Queenie is saying here. GWB does not listen to intelligence, this was documented in the wonderful Bill Moyers show about pre-Iraq invasion intelligence gathering.

His stance on the Oil Industry is obvious. His callousness towards the first amendment also drives many crazy. The whole imbedded reporter is frightening as hell to me. He was angry when photos leaked of soldiers coffins. I did not find that disrepectful, if anything it made my feelings stronger for what the US soldier is being put through in the Iraqi war.

[Schmeltz]

Iraq is much BETTER with out Hussein and his family of savages "ruling" that country.



Some 10,000 Iraqis have been killed in the last four months in unrelenting attacks by Sunni and Shiite extremists on each other's communities, as well as bombings and shootings by Sunni Arab insurgents. Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060828/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq)


Yep. Big improvement there.

[Lex Diamonds]

Why did a nice guy like JFK get shot and George W and his gang are left alive and free to just fuck up the world?

[Pootytang]

Why did a nice guy like JFK get shot and George W and his gang are left alive and free to just fuck up the world?
Because JFK relaxed his guard because he was such a great president. He figured no one wanted to harm him because everyone loved him so much. GW is such an ass he keeps his guard up because he knows alot of people would love to take him out.

[FunkyHiFi]

i like that al frankin guy, i miss democracy now too. used to get it everyday out in northern california, but here in chicago...no dice.The Internet is useful for soemthing anyway:

Listen to it here, Pacifica.org (http://pacifica.org/), or

via one of Pacifica's five sister stations (http://pacifica.org/stations/). Here in Houston that station (KPFT) is about the only one I listen to, not just for the news but for the huge amount of non-corporate tunes they play (check out their programs (http://houston.kpft.org/site/PageServer?pagename=program_list)). "Soular Grooves" is on right now.

BTW: anybody else see this on TheOnion.com parody site?

"Five Years Later: NYC Unveils 9/11 Memorial Hole" (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/52325)
"From the wreckage and ashes of the World Trade Center, we have created a recess in the ground befitting the American spirit," said New York Governor George Pataki from a cinderblock-and-plastic-bucket-supported plywood platform near the Hole's precipice. "This vast chasm, dug at the very spot where the gleaming Twin Towers once rose to the sky, is a symbol of what we can accomplish if we work together."
:(

[Documad]

I honestly believe we would be in a much better space. George W. Bush will go down as the worst president in history.

This is not some kneejerk off the cuff remark. We are up shitcreek currently, and the paddle is nowhere in sight.
I agree.

I think that 9/11 would still have happened. But the reaction would have been different. We would have done a better and more complete job in Afghanistan and we wouldn't have invaded Iraq. We might have even brought bin laden to justice. We wouldn't have alienated the people all over the world you used to like us. The world would have fewer terrorists today. Israel would be safer.

We also would have enforced environmental laws instead of forgiving corporations that were fined. We would have civil rights enforcement (the department of justice always has job openings in environmental and civil rights now because what attorney who cares about those issues would be willing to work for the current administration?). We wouldn't have gone so far into debt. We wouldn't have dismantled FEMA and chances are that qualified people would have been at the top. The levees still would have burst but it wouldn't have taken 4-5 days for the administration to figure it out and get food and water to folks. We would have a better supreme court and better federal judges. We would have stronger community policing. I could go on and on.

All that would have been possible even if the republicans controlled both houses of congress because the executive branch does all that without them.

[DroppinScience]

I agree.

I think that 9/11 would still have happened. But the reaction would have been different. We would have done a better and more complete job in Afghanistan and we wouldn't have invaded Iraq. We might have even brought bin laden to justice. We wouldn't have alienated the people all over the world you used to like us. The world would have fewer terrorists today. Israel would be safer.

We also would have enforced environmental laws instead of forgiving corporations that were fined. We would have civil rights enforcement (the department of justice always has job openings in environmental and civil rights now because what attorney who cares about those issues would be willing to work for the current administration?). We wouldn't have gone so far into debt. We wouldn't have dismantled FEMA and chances are that qualified people would have been at the top. The levees still would have burst but it wouldn't have taken 4-5 days for the administration to figure it out and get food and water to folks. We would have a better supreme court and better federal judges. We would have stronger community policing. I could go on and on.

All that would have been possible even if the republicans controlled both houses of congress because the executive branch does all that without them.


Very well put.

Though I think your FEMA/Katrina-type scenarios would have to be filed under ANOTHER hypothetical... if Gore had won in 2000, would he have been re-elected in 2004? ;)