Fucking crazy: Airport 'Security'

[EN[i]GMA]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html;jsessionid=32DA4C09BEB07855088A6F20EBB 8C4DE?topicId=11211166&sid=1

What the fuck is wrong with people?

I mean seriously:

I waited in total silence for about 10 minutes as he kept searching and searching, until I finally asked him, "What are you looking for?"

"Contraband," he said without looking up at me.
"Such as?"
"Child pornography, hate propaganda."
"Child porn I can understand, that's illegal. But hate propaganda is protected speech."
Now he looked up. "What country do you think you're in?"
"Oh, it's illegal in Canada?"
"I honestly don't know. But that doesn't matter. I get to decide what goes in this country. Do you have a problem with that?"
I paused for a long time while I thought about what I should say to this. "Yes."
"Yes, you do have a problem?"
"Yes, I do. If it's illegal in Canada I'll understand, but saying 'I don't want it in my country' isn't good enough when you're a government official."

[SobaViolence]

hate speech is illegal in Canada.

[EN[i]GMA]

hate speech is illegal in Canada.

Is it illegal because you passed a law, or because some jackass says: I get to decide what goes in this country.?

But interestingly enough, aren't you Canadian? Think about it for a second. You've posted some pretty nihilistic stuff before. Do you think they could nab you for hate speach?

I mean, have you ever said anything: "likely to expose a person or group of persons to hatred or contempt" because of "race, color, ancestry, place of origin, religion, marital status, family status, physical or mental disability, sex, sexual orientation or age."

Said anything hasty about 'Americans' before? I'm almost certain you have. Does that mean you're guilty of hate speech?

Sorry for going completely off-topic, but laws like that piss me off.

[SobaViolence]

no, it's illegal.
proving it is hard, but it's there.

I mean, have you ever said anything: "likely to expose a person or group of persons to hatred or contempt" because of "race, color, ancestry, place of origin, religion, marital status, family status, physical or mental disability, sex, sexual orientation or age."

that's pretty much what is says in our charter of rights.

makes sense to me.

[EN[i]GMA]

no, it's illegal.
proving it is hard, but it's there.


I don't doubt that it's illegal.

I just think it's stupid.


that's pretty much what is says in our charter of rights.

makes sense to me.

Why?

"likely to expose a person or group of persons to hatred or contempt" because of "race, color, ancestry, place of origin, religion, marital status, family status, physical or mental disability, sex, sexual orientation or age."

I mean, I have 'contempt' and 'hatred' for pedophiles due to their 'sexual orientation', and I intend to 'expose them to hatred' whenever I have the chance. Is that wrong?

I mean, I'm sure Canada has laws outlawing those practices. Do those laws not 'expose' pedophiles' to 'hatred and contempt' on the basis of their 'sexual orientation'? Of course they do, as they rightly should.

Does saying "America sucks" 'expose' Americans to 'hatred and contempt'? Most certainly. Is it wrong to say? Should you be charged for saying it?

I could go on with these examples, really, but I'm sure you get the point. Some restrictions on speech are of course necessary. Slander, libel, threatening speach, even perhaps overtly racist speach designed only to engender hate (saying "all blacks should be killed" for example), are all clear violations and can be easily enforced.

But having a law so vague as to outlaw almost any critical speech can do nothing but restrict your right to free speech, your right to say unpopular, even possibly hateful things.

What good is 'free speech' if you're only free to say what everyone already agrees with? What if you want to be an iconoclast? A contrarian?

You, of all people, should hate this sort of restriction. You're usually the one saying "fuck the world" and getting all nihilist. Why are you OK with this restriction, then?

[yeahwho]

I'm really starting to hate Canada.

[Bob]

it's kind of a funny story in the link in the original post

[EN[i]GMA]

it's kind of a funny story in the link in the original post

It should be a funny story.

Really, it's pitiful that the poor guy had to go through all this shit.

Losing an iPod in the toilet = funny.

Being interrogated about it, asked about your opinion over Iraq, etc., that's scary.

[yeahwho]

"So you and Cara are friends?"
"Yes."
"How long have you known her?"
"About 5 months I think? Maybe less."
"Do you have a romantic relationship with Cara?"
"No."
"Do you want a romantic relationship with Cara?"
"No."
"OK, so ... if you and Cara were drunk together, and she turned to you and said, 'Tim, let's go--'"

This Cara, she intriques me, they should of kept up with that line of questioning.

[Bob]

GMA']It should be a funny story.

Really, it's pitiful that the poor guy had to go through all this shit.

Losing an iPod in the toilet = funny.

Being interrogated about it, asked about your opinion over Iraq, etc., that's scary.


well yeah, that's what i meant (although i didn't say it or hint at it). it's funny in a "it's better to laugh than cry" kind of way.

He spoke right in my face. "I've got 5 good men going into that airplane right now. Five of my best bomb squad guys. If there is any reason that I should be concerned for their life, then I need to know now. So just answer the questions, and do as I say."

so as i was saying, if you and cara were drunk...

[Documad]

Seriously? Because I'm flying into Canada next week. I suppose I have to leave my hate propaganda at home with my contact solution and face scrub. :rolleyes:

[SobaViolence]

i wish i was free like an american.
then life would be grand...

:rolleyes:

[Schmeltz]

Canada does indeed have certain laws against hate speech, which allowed the government to deport Ernst Zundel last year (which, as I recall, fuelled a very interesting debate on this board). I'm all for that, really.

It's perfectly correct to assert that our border officials should really have a good idea of what's legal or illegal to bring into the country. They shouldn't be permitted to deny anyone or anything entry based on their own personal opinions. But so far as hate speech or propaganda is concerned, I don't want it up here and if it's illegal to bring it into the country then I got props for my government ya heard me.

[louise]

you get checked double everywhere and then upstairs just before you step in the plane there's a knife on the floor just right beside the airplanedoor ..now that's easy taking...:confused:

[Qdrop]

boy, that Canada is going down the shitter....

[QueenAdrock]

He whispered into my ear. "Did you ... did you take a dump, and then drop your iPod in the toilet on accident?"
hahahhaha

Anyways, that was ridiculous. I understand people upholding the law, but to say that "you decide what is legal and illegal" is illegal in and of itself.

I have no problem with laws against hate speech, but just like any other law, the line has to be drawn somewhere. I agree with the laws against Holocaust deniers. Some say the Holocaust didn't happen and it is repeated in order to brainwash individuals into thinking there is some large "Jewish conspiracy." (It's not to make some sort of historical point since it is one of the most well-documented events in history and is undisputed that it occured.) There were other conspiracy theories about the Jews and what they've done, they came about in the early 1930's, and if it had been illegal to say in Austria/Germany, perhaps Hitler never would have risen to power. By him being able to say these untrue and terrible things about the Jews, he was able to convince others of the "international conspiracy" and create a following. If banning someone from saying the Holocaust didn't happen keeps another terrible uprising from occuring, by all means ban it. There's a difference between banning opinion and banning the spreading of false information. If some jerkoff is just saying "I hate the Jews," it's much different than him saying "The Jews are the reason for A, B, and C..." when it is just not true. That's the sort of speech that is dangerous - when it can persuade others to believe their ignorance as well - and should be banned.

[Schmeltz]

There's a difference between banning opinion and banning the spreading of false information.


Bam. Hammer meets nail.

[EN[i]GMA]

Seriously? Because I'm flying into Canada next week. I suppose I have to leave my hate propaganda at home with my contact solution and face scrub. :rolleyes:

Say you had a copy of Mein Kampf, or Mao's Red Book, or a similar book with you.

It's a free society. You're allowed to read them. You're allowed to read books on things eugenics, etc., and not be labeled a Nazi or a Eugenicist.

[EN[i]GMA]

i wish i was free like an american.
then life would be grand...

:rolleyes:

Way to switch the subject.

And so subtly.

[EN[i]GMA]

Canada does indeed have certain laws against hate speech, which allowed the government to deport Ernst Zundel last year (which, as I recall, fuelled a very interesting debate on this board). I'm all for that, really.

As am I.

I have no problem with going after people who are clearly guilty of hate speech, or inciting violence.

But the problem is, such laws can be very vague. I mean, can anarchist literature be described as 'hate speech'? Literature about overthowing the Canadian government?

I mean, I can think of a lot of laws that, if they were instituted and enforced properly, would be great. But that's the kicker.


It's perfectly correct to assert that our border officials should really have a good idea of what's legal or illegal to bring into the country. They shouldn't be permitted to deny anyone or anything entry based on their own personal opinions. But so far as hate speech or propaganda is concerned, I don't want it up here and if it's illegal to bring it into the country then I got props for my government ya heard me.

Fair enough.

But I fear the precedent it sets.

[Bob]

But so far as hate speech or propaganda is concerned, I don't want it up here and if it's illegal to bring it into the country then I got props for my government ya heard me.

what if they start banning things that you do want up there, though? like if the government goes super right wing and starts banning, i dunno, chomsky books or something (i've read very little chomsky, i don't know how you would classify his stuff as hate speech, but damnit i bet you could pay a lawyer enough money to find a way)? hate speech is vague. some of it we can clearly agree on (KKK literature, for example...although KKK members would disagree, i guess), but some of it we can't. but if the government has the last say on what is and isn't hate speech, then i dunno. i don't like it.

as to the original topic (boy i'm nonlinear), i don't know if the government official was serious about his my way or the highway attitude...i imagine he was just trying to pull some intimidating gestapo shit to command respect. i bet officials do that.

[QueenAdrock]

GMA']Say you had a copy of Mein Kampf, or Mao's Red Book, or a similar book with you.

It's a free society. You're allowed to read them. You're allowed to read books on things eugenics, etc., and not be labeled a Nazi or a Eugenicist.

I'm actually pretty sure that if there were any warning flags that the government had for internet spying, I raised every single one of them by being a history major. I bought books on Nazism, Communism, Fascism...also, Mein Kampf (translated in English of course, to "My Battle"), Communist Manifesto, The Prince, etc. etc. I remember checking out at amazon.com and thinking "Holy crap the po' is gonna come after me." They didn't though, which was nice.

[EN[i]GMA]

I'm actually pretty sure that if there were any warning flags that the government had for internet spying, I raised every single one of them by being a history major. I bought books on Nazism, Communism, Fascism...also, Mein Kampf (translated in English of course, to "My Battle"), Communist Manifesto, The Prince, etc. etc. I remember checking out at amazon.com and thinking "Holy crap the po' is gonna come after me." They didn't though, which was nice.

They have a file on you.

Don't worry.

[Schmeltz]

As I said the last time this issue was brought up, an alert and educated citizenry will be able to tell when its government is making moves to censor the populace's speech beyond its mandate from said citizens. But that isn't happening in Canada.

In Canada it is illegal to distribute certain kinds of material deemed hateful or harmful to Canadian society, and those are the kinds of things people can't bring in. You can get Mein Kampf at the library (my high school had no less than three copies available, if I recall correctly) and you can download Mao's Little Red Book from a variety of legally operated websites. But you can't get white supremacist literature at the library and websites promoting Holocaust denial (such as Zundel's) are illegal and are shut down when discovered and investigated.

I don't have a problem with any of this. The government has final say on what constitutes hate speech because such a classification is part of its mandate as a body of elected representatives. Government exists to serve this very function and so long as it remains open, transparent, and accountable to the voters there is no need to fear unduly excessive implementation of its powers. Now, when officials start using their clout to enforce their personal opinions when they ought to be enforcing the laws on the books, we've got problems. But I think this incident to be sufficiently insignificant to be easily dismissed. Well, maybe we should fire that customs guy. I'll fire off a letter tomorrow. If I remember.