9/11 Inside Job? [Archive] - Beastie Boys Message Board

barfcity

09-08-2006, 09:30 PM

Oftentimes conspiracy theories are just overheard and repeated, rarely is it original stuff. Time and again I heard about the Pentagon attack being faked, people spouting the same tired "evidence" - yet I was on-site only two weeks after it happened and can tell you that the damage there was significant, something a plane WOULD do.

Either way, the conspiracy theories won't do anything. They haven't in the past, they won't in the future. I'm skeptical of all theories, just because it's such a popular thing to do, and oftentimes are faulty in their reasoning/facts.

the "official" story is overheard and repeated. i read an article today about larry silverstein, leasee of the wtc site. he signed his lease 6 months prior to the attacks, for 124 million out of several billion...switched the security company to securecom, a company ran by george bushes brother, marvin; a company which also ran security for Dulles International Airport and United Airlines.
larry made over 3 billion dollars, the insurance company gave him 4.8 billion dollars counting each trade center as a seperate terrorist incident.
its also important to know that the towers were essentially condemned for their high level of asbestos, however it was too expensive to bring the towers down. it was estimated that it would cost 15 billion dollars to take them down manually:
the White House influenced the Environmental Protection Agency to downplay hazards posed by the toxic dust that fell in an avalanche over the city (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3076626)

thousands of people within the city, most all rescue workers have now developed serious lung problems, not even 5 years later.

larry admits to pulling wtc 7 because of all the death and damage, also a profitable move in terms of wrangling more insurance. spoken on a pbs documentary (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7750532340306101329&q=larry+silverstein&hl=en)
that wtc complex had offices for the US Secret Service, NSA, CIA, IRS, BATF,SEC- the SEC lost 3,000-4,000 files regarding its investigations.

They include the agency's major inquiry into the manner in which investment banks divvied up hot shares of initial public offerings during the high-tech boom. ..."Ongoing investigations at the New York SEC will be dramatically affected because so much of their work is paper-intensive," said Max Berger of New York's Bernstein Litowitz Berger & Grossmann. "This is a disaster for these cases." (http://www.fourwinds10.com/NewsServer/ArticleFunctions/ArticleDetails.php?ArticleID=10744)

anyways, good article (http://www.fourwinds10.com/NewsServer/ArticleFunctions/ArticleDetails.php?ArticleID=10744)

you also said something about seeing the hole in the pentagon, and how it looked like a place caused it. the wall collapsed, afterwards, looking much larger. heres what the hole actually looked like right after the impact:

before (http://www.serendipity.li/wot/xymphora/010911pentagon.jpg)
another before (http://www.loosechange911.com/img/evidence/pentagon/lc2e_pentagon32.jpg)

after collapse (http://www.hilltoptimes.com/Images/story_photos/157/pentagon%209-11.jpg)

its also curious that there were so few plane parts recovered, but somehow there was a nicely punched out hole in the inner ring of the building... (http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/im_blog/pentagon_hole1_sm.jpg)and there were quite a few mentions of bomb experts smelling cordite, a military grade explosive charge, in the air.

and as to what you said here:

"Either way, the conspiracy theories won't do anything. They haven't in the past, they won't in the future. I'm skeptical of all theories, just because it's such a popular thing to do, and oftentimes are faulty in their reasoning/facts."

i sure hope that people figure it out...if we let this tyrannical administration, and this weak ass congress proceed further, we will all be in trouble.

QueenAdrock

09-08-2006, 11:22 PM

I've heard it all before. Speculation, weak theories, yadda yadda.

Those "neatly punched holes" are probably not the pentagon. Those holes would not have created this (http://www.wtc-terrorattack.com/pentagon_crash07.jpg) afterwards. The inner structure is extremely solid, and if had just been punched through that neatly, it would not have fallen the way it did. It's a closeup of a wall that is neatly punched into yes, but how are you to actually know it's the pentagon other than taking their word for it? Are there any photos of the Pentagon from a distance, with a hole punched into it? And how did they get that close with a camera RIGHT AFTER it happened, since the "collapse" happened shortly after? No one aside from rescue workers were allowed in or around the structure right after it happened, so how did they get that photo?

As for the first photo you put up, I frankly don't even think that's the Pentagon. If you've ever been to the Pentagon, you'd know that the parking lots are far away from the building itself (bombs that blow up buildings are on average 100-200 pounds and require a vehicle to be driven up and detonated, which is why there are no lots there). So why is there a car there? And if you notice between the official picture of the Pentagon that I put up, and that picture, the sizes of the windows are different. It may be that's a different part of the building, but it's not adding up quite right.

And there were not "quite a few bomb experts" who smelled cordite - Don Parkal said, “A bomb had gone off. I could smell the cordite. I knew explosives had been set off somewhere.” That is one man. One man can easily be wrong. I don't even know his credentials. However, my father was a forensic scientist for 30 years who worked in Explosives, he doesn't believe that anything in 9/11 has to do with explosives from the footage and other evidence he's seen - and trust me, he hates Bush more than anyone I know. He's my most credible source, and I trust him.

Yet I still don't understand the conspiracy theory. There are neatly punched holes and explosives? No plane? Was it just a missile and bombs? And if so, why? How did people get the bombs into the building with such tight security? The Pentagon has VERY strict security, even pre-9/11.

These are the things you have to ask. Critically examine all of your evidence, make sure that it's correct, analyze what it all means. Don't just simply post up loosechange.com, we've all seen that and most of it has been debunked.

D_Raay

09-09-2006, 01:41 AM

36 percent of the populace now think 9/11 was likely to have been an inside job (http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll)

Documad

09-09-2006, 02:15 AM

its also important to know that the towers were essentially condemned for their high level of asbestos, however it was too expensive to bring the towers down. it was estimated that it would cost 15 billion dollars to take them down manually:
the White House influenced the Environmental Protection Agency to downplay hazards posed by the toxic dust that fell in an avalanche over the city (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3076626)

thousands of people within the city, most all rescue workers have now developed serious lung problems, not even 5 years later.
It's too bad this is a one post wonder. I'd like to understand this argument.

I've said it before, when the towers went down, the environmental attorneys I work with said that there would be horrible pollution problems. That doesn't mean that the government took the building down intentionally.

Most government buildings probably have asbestos. They're not going to be taken down by government missiles.

The courthouse I used to work in was full of it. They let you keep working in it. It's only a big deal if they decide to disturb the asbestos. Then it's a big deal but they can remove the asbestos and leave the building in place. Where I worked, the mayor didn't firebomb the building on account of the asbestos. Instead, they removed the asbestos, one floor at a time, over the course of some months.

barfcity

09-09-2006, 09:27 AM

there are way too many unanswered questions to just rub this one off and conveniently blame it on a small group of muslims hanging out in a cave. they couldnt have pulled it off without some help. theres also many links to mossad, just do a simple google search and you'll find all kinds of articles relating to a group of israeli intelligence officers captured video recording the event, with schematics and explosives in their van...what happened to them? they got sent back to israel without charges or investigation. larry silverstein is also a good friend of benjamin netanyahoo or whatever that fucks name is.

re: asbestos issue, it was too expensive for them to remove the asbestos, one more convenience of demolishing the towers as they did. they lied to the public about the asbestos, just as they lied about wtc 7 because they want to do away with all possible connections and anything that might raise questions as to who realoly benefited from all of this.

if you believe the government story, you are duped. congrats.

QueenAdrock

09-09-2006, 11:09 AM

I don't trust this government and hate the Bush administration more than 90% of the people I know. However, there are way too many people I know who are too quick to jump on the conspiracy theory train just because they hate the administration. I'm not one of the people to believe anything I hear about; I do my own research and come to my own conclusions. I suggest everyone do the same. Don't listen to what the government tells you, don't believe what the conspiracy theorists tell you. Find out for yourself and stop going to these websites that tell you what they believe/say, without even going out and seeing whether their claims are true.

Documad

09-09-2006, 01:34 PM

re: asbestos issue, it was too expensive for them to remove the asbestos, one more convenience of demolishing the towers as they did. they lied to the public about the asbestos, just as they lied about wtc 7 because they want to do away with all possible connections and anything that might raise questions as to who realoly benefited from all of this.

if you believe the government story, you are duped. congrats.
The asbestos angle is the silliest part of this conspiracy story so far.

If you know anything at all about how government works, then you would know that there is no way it can keep secrets forever. How many people had to be in the loop in order to pull this off? And not a one of them divulged even a tiny piece of the story in pillow talk with a spouse? The government can't keep a secret even when only a few people know it. Look at how many blogs, articles, and books have been written about Iraq and how we know the contents of every conversation even when those conversations are incredibly embarrassing to the president, Rumsfeld, etc., but somehow there is this huge secret being keep by loads of people and there isn't a whistleblower?

The X-Files was fiction.

QA: I don't think that the people who believe ini this theory are Bush haters. I've met some screwball conservatives that believe it. There is some overlap with the endtimes folks too. It's kind of scary when you start to consider how many nuts are out there.

fucktopgirl

09-09-2006, 02:34 PM

[QUOTE=Documad]
If you know anything at all about how government works, then you would know that there is no way it can keep secrets forever.

HOw does the governement work then?

Hey, they can do whatever they want...they can make believe to their sheeps anything because they have the power of the information and people are all brainwashed .

SEcrets are definitely been hidden with the 9/11 . How they keep the secret: by submerging the media with a lot of nonsense, propaganda, lies and all sorts of differents opinion being put there by morons therefore muddling up the root of the issue. Then people are too lazy to go searched answers by themselves so they watched tv and absorbed falses informations and find it satisfying. As long they can eat their Mcdonald and buy some jacob shirt, they feel fines.

People are lazy and stupid...this is how they are able to keep their lies hidden!

yeahwho

09-10-2006, 03:25 PM

Inside job all depends on your definition of inside job. Obviously a group of people did have the ways and means to pull off 9/11. Another group of people say they were taken by surprise.

This is the premise that is easier to prove than disprove.

Perhaps that's part of the conspiracy, just to keep you busier than you already are trying to catch up in our 2 class society.

Who would want to have 1% of the population rich and the other 99% struggling?

brooklyndust

09-10-2006, 03:42 PM

I was going to say this:

How many people had to be in the loop in order to pull this off? And not a one of them divulged even a tiny piece of the story in pillow talk with a spouse?

If the conspiracies are true, then at least a thousand people or more would have been involved.

Were talking about corrupt fireman, policeman, security guards, politicians, pilots, airport staff, mechanics, janitors, relatives, friends, military personnel, insurance companies, and excreta.

None of these people have consciences right? They all are fine with what they did and what happened. They are being paid by the government to be keep quite. If they talk, them or someone they know are killed by the evil government!

The insurance companies loved giving Larry $4.8billion dollars for the world trade center. They didn’t investigate to see if it was insurance fraud.

Honestly think about how many people it would have taken to pull something like this off, all the planning, all the money, and all the things they had to do to prepare. No one spoke up about it, not even once! They were all fine with killing 2,973 people. Some of those people who died that day could have been related to the people involved in the 9/11 conspiracy, but remember all these people involved in the 9/11 conspiracy have no consciences what so ever. And if they were to speak up, the all knowing, all evil government would have silenced them.

Just think about how hard it is to keep a secret within a group of 10 people. Now multiply that group of 10 people by 100, and tell me how hard it would be to keep a secret.

And I am not talking about a secret like “Richard hatch won survivor, don’t tell anyone till it airs” I’m talking more like “the government is going to kill 2,973 people, don’t tell anyone cause they are paying for this house”

yeahwho

09-10-2006, 04:21 PM

I was going to say this:

If the conspiracies are true, then at least a thousand people or more would have been involved.

Were talking about corrupt fireman, policeman, security guards, politicians, pilots, airport staff, mechanics, janitors, relatives, friends, military personnel, insurance companies, and excreta.

None of these people have consciences right? They all are fine with what they did and what happened. They are being paid by the government to be keep quite. If they talk, them or someone they know are killed by the evil government!

The insurance companies loved giving Larry $4.8billion dollars for the world trade center. They didn’t investigate to see if it was insurance fraud.

Honestly think about how many people it would have taken to pull something like this off, all the planning, all the money, and all the things they had to do to prepare. No one spoke up about it, not even once! They were all fine with killing 2,973 people. Some of those people who died that day could have been related to the people involved in the 9/11 conspiracy, but remember all these people involved in the 9/11 conspiracy have no consciences what so ever. And if they were to speak up, the all knowing, all evil government would have silenced them.

Just think about how hard it is to keep a secret within a group of 10 people. Now multiply that group of 10 people by 100, and tell me how hard it would be to keep a secret.

And I am not talking about a secret like “Richard hatch won survivor, don’t tell anyone till it airs” I’m talking more like “the government is going to kill 2,973 people, don’t tell anyone cause they are paying for this house”

Excellent points. The exploitation of 9/11 is more worrisome than the actual event. It's sort of like a widow of 9/11 victims said on the radio this morning as I was driving home from nightwatch,

Imagine your family was killed in an auto accident 5 years ago and they just keep throwing it in your face over and over no matter where you go or what you do, never escaping the actual event or healing the wounds.

Fear is what motivates our current status as Americans. Sad.

D_Raay

09-10-2006, 06:02 PM

I was going to say this:

If the conspiracies are true, then at least a thousand people or more would have been involved.

Were talking about corrupt fireman, policeman, security guards, politicians, pilots, airport staff, mechanics, janitors, relatives, friends, military personnel, insurance companies, and excreta.

None of these people have consciences right? They all are fine with what they did and what happened. They are being paid by the government to be keep quite. If they talk, them or someone they know are killed by the evil government!

The insurance companies loved giving Larry $4.8billion dollars for the world trade center. They didn’t investigate to see if it was insurance fraud.

Honestly think about how many people it would have taken to pull something like this off, all the planning, all the money, and all the things they had to do to prepare. No one spoke up about it, not even once! They were all fine with killing 2,973 people. Some of those people who died that day could have been related to the people involved in the 9/11 conspiracy, but remember all these people involved in the 9/11 conspiracy have no consciences what so ever. And if they were to speak up, the all knowing, all evil government would have silenced them.

Just think about how hard it is to keep a secret within a group of 10 people. Now multiply that group of 10 people by 100, and tell me how hard it would be to keep a secret.

And I am not talking about a secret like “Richard hatch won survivor, don’t tell anyone till it airs” I’m talking more like “the government is going to kill 2,973 people, don’t tell anyone cause they are paying for this house”
Well that would be speculating that the goverment actually pulled this off themselves.

Now as for them knowing or even in certain instances enabling the attacks, that I believe is still up in the air.
None of the advance warnings were heeded and in some cases were intentionally brushed off.

And they have the nerve to try to pin this on the Clinton administration?

What would be worse? Them knowing and doing nothing,or them intentionally carrying it out themselves? Seems to me if they wanted a Pearl Harbor style attack (which certain people indicated they would in fact want) knowing and doing nothing would essentially be the safe way for them to carry such an attack out. They would have known that it would be under intensive scrutiny.
They have the resources to enable such an attack and provide security for the attackers, and it would be easy enough to round up a number of patsies to take the fall for it.

Now I am not saying I have bought any of these theories hook line and sinker, I am just saying that perhaps we should keep an open and objective mind when it comes to this event. There are far too many open questions to just simply dismiss it as being too far fetched. That's one thing I have certainly learned in the past 6 years.

The Notorious LOL

09-10-2006, 06:06 PM

barfcity

09-10-2006, 06:07 PM

the government cant keep a secret? i dont think you give the government enough credit. part of what the government relies upon, in order to keep its secrets, are conspiracy theories. call it a conspiracy theory and then rub it off into nothing, because it has no truth, its just some cooked out wackoff bullshit..right?
well, then all of you who sit there and call it a conspiracy theory and give it no relevance and care nothing to truly investigate the matter, you are playing your part, for the government, to keep the morale and atmosphere which makes the united states of america out of touch with reality.

the reality of it is, is that the government of the united states of america is perhaps the most brutal, corrupt and dishonest of all governments, ever. they have mastered technological warfare and economics, and have used the wealth created for them, by their own citizens to involke a new type of imperialism/globalization to retain their supremecy. bow down sheeple, and accept the offical government explaination.

i dont care if your daddy works for the pentagon. i dont care if you know someone who died on 9-11 and feel threatened by someone who questions the official story that the powers that be made in to a book, into a miniseries, into a movie, and force fed down your throat via major media for the last 5 years. you are being lied to, you accept it, and you are part of the problem. but i dont blame you, i only ask that you seek truth for yourself.

barfcity

09-10-2006, 06:11 PM

power is based on corruption, is based off keeping secrets. why are their secret societies, why do we keep any secrets at all? do you really think that whoever pulled this off kept people around them who would feel remorse about this, who would change face and narc everyone out?
to this date, we still dont know who pulled this off. someones keeping a secret...

barfcity

09-10-2006, 06:13 PM

but of course all they would have to do is give us something real, that proves how the towers fell, that proves a plane crashed in to the pentagon. all we have is loose-ends and unanswered questions. i choose not to believe.

The Notorious LOL

09-10-2006, 06:14 PM

neat, go cry wolf some more and 99.9% of the population will continue not to care

barfcity

09-10-2006, 06:15 PM

release one video of the plane hitting the pentagon that actually shows something

barfcity

09-10-2006, 06:16 PM

explain to me why people in the basement of the towers heard, felt, were injured and killed by explosions before the plane even hit the towers. and explain to me why seismic evidence supports these witnesses if you disbelieve

QueenAdrock

09-10-2006, 07:24 PM

but i dont blame you, i only ask that you seek truth for yourself.

Maybe they already have, and come to the conclusion that the conspiracy theories are crap.

I agree with NLOL's sentiment. I do agree that Bush and his cronies are too inept to pull off something this intricate without anyone finding out. They're bumbling idiots, and I think some kind of credible evidence would have come out against them within the past 5 years. There's also millions of Democrats in this country just DYING to hold something against the Bush administration, to bring out against him in order for impeachment. Yet they still don't believe these theories, because they don't believe they have credibility. We were able to track down the Plame leak, and get video evidence that Bush knew how terrible Katrina was when he said he hadn't known prior, had people in his administration come out and say that they didn't believe he had WMD's in Iraq before we invaded (and the fact that Bush was dead set on finding a link between 9/11 and Iraq even though he was told by the head of anti-terrorism that there were none came out too), videos of Bush drunk off his ass back in the day, bashing on his opponents (not to mention the middle finger video), and the list goes on. These are all politically damaging things, and they're things that can EASILY be covered up...but they came out. 9/11 is one of the HUGEST events in American history and they can cover up THAT? These idiots that can't cover up other smaller things can pull off this huge coverup? I doubt it. Logic tells me no.

Documad

09-10-2006, 07:49 PM

the reality of it is, is that the government of the united states of america is perhaps the most brutal, corrupt and dishonest of all governments, ever.
I take it that you have not been exposed to any history classes yet at your school?

I hate George W. Bush and his cronies with all my heart and soul. But I love the US and its system of government. Which country in the world has a better system of government, even just looking at today? Yes, it could be better, and I for one am working just about every day to try and make it better (primary in my state Tuesday!).

One of the things that makes the US government work is that there are a tremendous number of civil service employees, and other employees who have no political agenda. They soldier on in their jobs without regard to who the president is. They get demoralized, but most of them stay for the pension and because they can still accomplish something good even if they don't personally agree with who is at the top. Only a small percentage of employees change when a new president comes in. I know people in a variety of jobs with various federal and state agencies. As others have pointed out, it would take a staggering number of people to pull this off and then not a single one of them has told anyone for more than five years. (When did they start planning it?) I just don't believe that there are that many people who know the identity of mass murderers and have kept it quiet.

We know each and every dumb thing every one of our government officials and their friends and consultants did at every other point during the Bush administration's term in office. Look at all the books on the lead up to Iraq. But none of those authors of all of those books stumbled across anything on the mass murder on 9/11.

D_Raay

09-10-2006, 10:54 PM

I like how people one minute point out the massive failures of the Bush administration with their clusterfuck of the Iraq war, but completely contradict themselves by assuming they are so smart they were able to pull the wool over everyones eyes and plan and act out September 11th without the majority of the population realizing something was amiss.
Jesus can any of you people think beyond the concept that just maybe our goverment WAS involved, but weren't the actual planners?

It would be the one safe way to go about it.

Why would they intentionallly poison the well on this within the media?

Something like this requires a bit more than shallow viewpoints and knee-jerk reaction.

QueenAdrock

09-11-2006, 12:00 PM

Another thing that struck me, at least if Bush was directly involved in said conspiracy. Does anyone remember the 2004 Presidential debates? I vividly do. I remember him getting pissed at Kerry, grinding his jaw, squinting, having his mouth firmly set if not frowning, clearly unable to put on a mask of indifference. The man has no poker face AT all. He wears his emotions on his face and quite badly might I add.

Now rewind further to 9/11. The advisor comes in, tells Bush that the towers had been hit. His intial face was staring at the ground, in shock. Then he tries to compose himself, but you see that same face come back. The jaw set firmly, the upset/pissed off look his face. He should have been able to have a poker face for those kids at that school, but he was unable to. Later that night, he struggled to keep tears back.

I think the man is too much of a dumbass to fake those emotions in those few moments after he was informed. You can see from his face, the look of dumbfounded shock, followed by anger. For a man unable to control his emotions and wears exactly what he feels and thinks on his face, it would be QUITE the feat to have him 'fake' his expressions (assuming that he was "in on it" or informed before hand) after he was informed on the morning of 9/11.

Whatitis

09-11-2006, 12:10 PM

Tone Capone

09-11-2006, 12:23 PM

I can't believe people are actually arguing this... I mean, why not talk about unicorns or or magical fairies or something else that is less fictional than this topic... I swear.

Qdrop

09-11-2006, 12:45 PM

Today, Democracy Now has sponsored a debate between the creators of Loose Change, and the people from Popular Mechanics who wrote the book which purports to debunk it.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/11/1345203

Direct download: http://www.archive.org/download/dn2006-0911/dn2006-0911-1_64kb.mp3
------------

the Loose Change creators really come off like arrogant assholes...laughing and snickering throughout the interview...very unprofessional and accusational.

very sad to hear them still peddling theories that have been debunked 20 times over in the past 5 years.

you can take their same line of reasoning and insert any "conspiracy" theory you want: the faked moon landing, creationism, holocaust denial, UFO's and abductions...
their line of reasoning is virtually identical...

---------

for reference:

The Popular Mechanics article (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y)

Loose Change ver.2 Updated (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501)

Qdrop

09-11-2006, 01:06 PM

The "screw Loose Change" video:

http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/

re-edits and corrects all the bullshit...

brooklyndust

09-11-2006, 03:22 PM

For all those conspiracy theory nuts out there, here is one more thing to think about:

If the government planned 9/11 to invade Iraq, why did they hold Osama Bin Laden responsible? Why didn’t they just blame it all on Saddam Hussein or someone in Iraq?

Is this what they said they were going to do:
Step one:
were going to send a missile into the pentagon and then blow up the twin towers.
Step two:
were going to blame it all on Afghanistan and Osama Bin Laden.
Step three:
were going to change are minds half way through and try to blame it all on Iraq so we can go to invade them

If they did all that planning and were responsible for 9/11, then why didn’t they just skip over step two?

If they were capable of fooling all you Americans, than it would have been child’s play to find a patsy in Iraq to take the heat for 9/11. Then they could move on with their “hidden agenda” and invade Iraq

They did all that careful planning, the planes filled with explosives, the world trade center full of explosives, the missile hitting the pentagon, the cover ups, but they seemed to screw it up when it came to who was going to be their fall guy.

its also important to know that the towers were essentially condemned for their high level of asbestos, however it was too expensive to bring the towers down. it was estimated that it would cost 15 billion dollars to take them down manually

your right it would have been to expensive to take the towers down manually, but I am sure the clean up, loss in jobs, the blow to the economy, the reconstruction (freedom tower + 3 other buildings) are nickles and cents.

barfcity

09-11-2006, 03:44 PM

Maybe they already have, and come to the conclusion that the conspiracy theories are crap.

I agree with NLOL's sentiment. I do agree that Bush and his cronies are too inept to pull off something this intricate without anyone finding out. They're bumbling idiots, and I think some kind of credible evidence would have come out against them within the past 5 years. There's also millions of Democrats in this country just DYING to hold something against the Bush administration, to bring out against him in order for impeachment. Yet they still don't believe these theories, because they don't believe they have credibility. We were able to track down the Plame leak, and get video evidence that Bush knew how terrible Katrina was when he said he hadn't known prior, had people in his administration come out and say that they didn't believe he had WMD's in Iraq before we invaded (and the fact that Bush was dead set on finding a link between 9/11 and Iraq even though he was told by the head of anti-terrorism that there were none came out too), videos of Bush drunk off his ass back in the day, bashing on his opponents (not to mention the middle finger video), and the list goes on. These are all politically damaging things, and they're things that can EASILY be covered up...but they came out. 9/11 is one of the HUGEST events in American history and they can cover up THAT? These idiots that can't cover up other smaller things can pull off this huge coverup? I doubt it. Logic tells me no.

the bush's have been in politics for generations. they are a crime family, members of the ruling elite, who work behind the scenes to profit off america, off exploitation of people and resources globally. one thing they are not, i stupid. they are well connected and atop/behind the global political scene, behind assasinations, invasions, wars, and terrorist attacks. they are sick fucks.

brooklyndust

09-11-2006, 03:52 PM

i stupid.

:rolleyes:

barfcity

09-11-2006, 03:54 PM

For all those conspiracy theory nuts out there, here is one more thing to think about:

If the government planned 9/11 to invade Iraq, why did they hold Osama Bin Laden responsible? Why didn’t they just blame it all on Saddam Hussein or someone in Iraq?

Is this what they said they were going to do:
Step one:
were going to send a missile into the pentagon and then blow up the twin towers.
Step two:
were going to blame it all on Afghanistan and Osama Bin Laden.
Step three:
were going to change are minds half way through and try to blame it all on Iraq so we can go to invade them

If they did all that planning and were responsible for 9/11, then why didn’t they just skip over step two?

If they were capable of fooling all you Americans, than it would have been child’s play to find a patsy in Iraq to take the heat for 9/11. Then they could move on with their “hidden agenda” and invade Iraq

They did all that careful planning, the planes filled with explosives, the world trade center full of explosives, the missile hitting the pentagon, the cover ups, but they seemed to screw it up when it came to who was going to be their fall guy.

your right it would have been to expensive to take the towers down manually, but I am sure the clean up, loss in jobs, the blow to the economy, the reconstruction (freedom tower + 3 other buildings) are nickles and cents.

maybe 9-11 was planned by al qaeda, and when intelligence found out, they redirected attention elsewhere, silenced operatives and officials, put gag orders on field officers, and then, made sure it happened correctly. they had a lot to gain by allowing this to happen.
there were intelligence reports made by the german government which warned us of attacks in september, we even had warnings from people within our CIA weeks before 9-11 saying that an attack was imminent. these warnings were ignored, and the war games which crippled out ability to respond were scheduled, and played out. without these war games, there is no way that all three planes would have hit their target. and they had to hit their target.

as to asbestos removal being to expensive. its not about how much it costs, its about who picks up the tab. in this case, it is the american tax payers.

YoungRemy

09-11-2006, 04:26 PM

there is absolutely no rhyme or reason to these theories...

the whole point of the first post in this thread is to suggest that Flight 93 was shot down, when meanwhile all the other nutjobs are running around like chickens with their heads cut off screaming that NORAD jets were nowhere to be found or that they were running drills in the desert...

regarding the towers: is it possible that there were explosions in the building due to the fact that, oh say, a JUMBO JET FULL OF FUEL WAS EMBEDDED COMPLETELY INTO THE BUILDING?!

but I'm sure some of you spent extensive hours in the lab doing your own research, right?

brooklyndust

09-11-2006, 05:01 PM

maybe

Maybe, maybe, what if?

This is what conspiracy theory people strive on, throwing ideas and theories against the wall until something sticks.

as to asbestos removal being to expensive. its not about how much it costs, its about who picks up the tab. in this case, it is the american tax payers.

So losses in the economy, and job losses didn’t hurt the government?

barfcity

09-11-2006, 05:09 PM

does george bush care about the country, about the government? do the executives across america give a shit about the economy? does big tobacco care about smokers?
the government is a facade for controlling the lives in a given boundary so that those atop can profit and remain securely in control of those people.

barfcity

09-11-2006, 05:11 PM

the quicker you open your mind to other resources, other than the ones that are designed to control you, the quicker you realize how fucked up everything is.

brooklyndust

09-11-2006, 05:25 PM

the quicker you open your mind to other resources, other than the ones that are designed to control you, the quicker you realize how fucked up everything is.

I am very open minded to other resources, watched lose change twice.
Own a few adbusters, have read no logo have seen the corperation ............ I am also reading rebel sell, you should pick it up. I live in Canada, when it comes to politics I look at what each party has to offer and make my decesion based on that (last time it was ndp).

I read information and then make my decesions based on that.

I suggest maybe you open your mind. Look at facts and not what if's

barfcity

09-11-2006, 08:11 PM

well, if you were so well rounded and educated, you wouldnt be so oblivious.

The Notorious LOL

09-11-2006, 08:13 PM

well, if you were so well rounded and educated, you wouldnt be so oblivious.

and the same goes for you!

QueenAdrock

09-11-2006, 09:43 PM

the bush's have been in politics for generations. they are a crime family, members of the ruling elite, who work behind the scenes to profit off america, off exploitation of people and resources globally. one thing they are not, i stupid. they are well connected and atop/behind the global political scene, behind assasinations, invasions, wars, and terrorist attacks. they are sick fucks.

Mmm-hmm. Where's your evidence, now?

Documad

09-11-2006, 09:48 PM

I actually agree with that statement, but it has nothing to do with 9/11.

QueenAdrock

09-11-2006, 10:12 PM

The big problem I have with it is "they're behind assassinations, terrorist attacks." It's all hearsay.

brooklyndust

09-11-2006, 10:39 PM

well, if you were so well rounded and educated, you wouldnt be so oblivious.

your right cause reading a few adbusters and watching few documentaries makes me WELL EDUCATED

no.

you called me close minded to other resources, I was trying to show you that I am open minded to many different things

Documad

09-11-2006, 10:56 PM

The big problem I have with it is "they're behind assassinations, terrorist attacks." It's all hearsay.
Oops, I didn't notice that part. :p

Forget it. :o

DroppinScience

09-11-2006, 11:52 PM

they are well connected and atop/behind the global political scene, behind assasinations, invasions, wars, and terrorist attacks. they are sick fucks.

Yeah, cause George Bush Sr. was behind the Reagan assassination attempt, right? :rolleyes:

Pres Zount

09-12-2006, 01:15 AM

no.

But, have you heard of Allende? That's an assasination.

Have you heard of the UN? IMF? WTO? That's the global political scene.

Have you heard of Iraq? Vietnam? That's invasion and war.

Have you heard of the Contras in Nicaragua? They were terrorists.

vickista

09-12-2006, 03:08 AM

yes, inside job

Qdrop

09-12-2006, 08:13 AM

its also important to know that the towers were essentially condemned for their high level of asbestos, however it was too expensive to bring the towers down.

essentially condemned?

what an outright lie.

where are you getting this shit from?

Qdrop

09-12-2006, 08:14 AM

The "screw Loose Change" video:

http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/

re-edits and corrects all the bullshit...

seriously...if you want to end this whole debate, just watch that. it will answer pretty much every BS conspiracy theory out there.

DONE.

Qdrop

09-12-2006, 12:28 PM

I'm most concerned that my sister goes to college (SUNY Oneonta, NY) with the 3 guys who made Loose Change (you see them at the end of the video).

what are they teaching these wackos?

QueenAdrock

09-12-2006, 12:35 PM

hahaha, the guys were from SUNY-Oneonta?

I was thinking of going there. My aunt and uncle are up there, and it's a beautiful campus. I used to spend all of my childhood summers up there because they own part of a mountain and a lake house we used to stay at.

But it's kind of a really small town. Weird to think that the conspiracy theorists were from there. It reminds me of one of those towns that everyone knows each other...or maybe that was just my aunt.

YoungRemy

09-12-2006, 02:04 PM

Jon Josef gets in on the fun..

from his myspace bulletin

Are you one of the sheeple?

Many have their doubts about what really happened on 9/11 and who was behind it... conspiracy theory? Shit a theory is only a theory if their is no evidence to support the facts, otherwise its a possibility... 9/11 is only the beginning of them implementing their wicked plan for the new world order.... dont be a blind follower...

www.911inplanesite.com
www.freedomtofascism.com

Punk and hardcore used to mean something before the mainstream homogenized it and made it safe for mass consumption... what's it mean to you?

in my honest, educated opinion, it is the theorists who become the sheeple...

Qdrop

09-12-2006, 02:14 PM

in my honest, educated opinion, it is the theorists who become the sheeple...

agreed.

i'm NOT saying that 9/11 Deniers are also Holocaust Deniers and Moon Landing Deniers, Creationists, ect....
but they use virtually the SAME line of reasoning and debate tactics....

they marginalize THEMSELVES....

Pres Zount

09-12-2006, 04:32 PM

its also important to know that the towers were essentially condemned for their high level of asbestos, however it was too expensive to bring the towers down.

wait, I missed this gem. Are you saying the US government went to all the trouble of aiding the mujahadeen and secretly dealing with osama, just to save some dollars on a demolishion of a building several years down the track?

I would have thought the clean up would perhaps cost more than a proper and controled demolishion, especially since they would have been full of asbestos, and that big dust cloud sweeping through the streets didn't really give the entire city asbestotis. I suppose that's why when a building has to come down in an abandoned neighbourhood or something, they don't just shoot it with rockets and planes.

Seriously, skip your replies to everyone else, and make a bee-line for this one, please.

barfcity

09-12-2006, 07:12 PM

surely,

im not saying that is why the towers were attacked. im saying that it is simply one more end where certain people profitted from this, in this case, its the man who bought the towers 6 months before the attack, got rid of the old security company, hired a new one ran by marvin bush, took out an insurance plan to the tune of several billions of dollars more than he had invested in the buildings, and when they fell, he no longer had to worry about the asbestos problem, which was a serious issue because it cost somewhere around 15 billion dollars to fix. it was delayed for fixing, they (the port authority and the city) could find no alternative, so they just kind of let it go... silverstein bought the towers, and was happy to see them go, it literally made him billions of dollars richer. thats a hell of an investment.

also look for his connections to the israeli government as well.

when you look for the true culprits of the event, look for those who profitted, follow the money. its the carlyle group and its members, haliburton, silverstein, all the inside traders etc...im not saying these people pushed the buttons, but someone did, and in my opinion it was a small group of people within either the us, or israeli government who aided the hijackers indirectly, without them even knowing, by remote controlling the planes in to the towers, shooting down the pennsylvania plane, and launching a cruise missile or something else (definately not a plane that hit the building) into the pentagon. who knows where that plane went...

unfortunately, the government refused to release tapes, videos and silenced many people who have spoken out against this event. war games crippled our ability to defend the country and gave the perpatrators a window to carry this out.
the argument that it would take 10,000 people to do this is false. in a bureacratic, heirarchical system based on need-to-know information, it only takes a few people at the top, and some covert operatives to carry this out.
the argument that people cant keep secrets is ridiculous. why do we even classify things if no one can keep a secret? there's shit that is going on right now, that we dont know about, and perhaps never will.

also, we could have shot down the plane, or whatever it was that was heading towards the pentagon. norman manettas testimony before the 9-11 commision states that cheney directly gave the orders not to interfere. right after bush got in to office, they re-wrote the rules on engagement for taking out hijacked airplanes....they put the authority directly in to the hands of cheney rumsfeld and bush. why would they do that? and why would cheney and rumsfeld have fought so hard against the 9-11 commission when it came to their own testimonies?

get real. there is much more to the story than we are told.

barfcity

09-12-2006, 07:26 PM

put it all together! election fraud, bush gets into office, rewrites defense rules ignores intelligence reports, 9-11, patriot act, homeland security act, afghanistan, iraq, iran, selling massive amounts of weapons to taiwan....where it came from, where it is heading...

that enough is all one needs to understand which makes this all seem a little fishy, given none of the above (except for arms sales to taiwan) could have happened had bush not gotten in to office, and allowed 9-11 to happen.

there are all sorts of fabricated, uneducated, unresearched bullshit theories put out their by wackos. and then there are those that are founded upon sound evidence. if you want to argue on behalf of the governments official story, dont waste your time with conspiracy theories, but tackle the difficult questions:

1. who gained (financially) in all of this- afterall that is what government in a capitolistic society is all about.
2. how can you explain the administrations actions in rewriting defense policy and ignoring intelligence, then keeping on schedule with war games which crippled our defenses on 9-11?
3. why is there so much coverup and unreleased interviews, video and audio footage? what are people hiding and why are they hiding it?
4. logistically, how could a plane hit the pentagon the way it did, leaving the building as it was.
5. why are there so many reports and testimonies which support there being bombs in the trade centers...there are literally hundreds.
6. why did the towers fall at nearly free fall speed?
7. why does the government still maintain that wtc 7 failed structurally when larry even admits he and the new york fire chief decided to demolish it?
8. why did cheney give stand down orders?
9. insider trading?
etc....

please answer those questions if you really want to discuss this further. because we could go on forever nit picking.

Documad

09-12-2006, 08:34 PM

The only reason we're responding is because it's an awful time for you to parade out this line of bullshit. You can't say who actually did anything. You can't explain anything. And most importantly you have no affirmative EVIDENCE of anything.

Who benefits is meaningless. Motive is meaningless. [I benefited because I got a super cheap vacation in NYC a couple of months after 9/11 and got great tickets to broadway shows.] Sometimes people just make mistakes. Sadly, it's the nature of government (and human beings) to plan for the last disaster instead of the next one. We don't have the best imaginations and we don't like to spend money to be extra safe from things we don't believe will happen. If you want to help society, lobby the government to fix its broken agencies like FEMA and quit wasting time on the sci fi blogs.

D_Raay

09-12-2006, 10:45 PM

What sci-fi blogs? Who's marginalizing who here?

Answer his questions straight up. Don't just say it isn't likely or possible or brush it off especially when you folks don't mind berating this fellow who has conviction.

And don't point him toward some opinion website or blog or video, just answer.
That's what reasonable people used to do. If you can't answer than at least grant the fellow the courtesy of maybe being in the ballpark of the truth.

I for one am glad that the scrutinizing eye is there, and am not at all offended by the fact it was brought up.
I suffered as well on that day and for the weeks following. What if he is right? What could be worse? Shouldn't we be ready for that?

DroppinScience

09-12-2006, 10:49 PM

7. why does the government still maintain that wtc 7 failed structurally when larry even admits he and the new york fire chief decided to demolish it?

I'm under the impression that they were planning to demolish WTC 7 but it already collapsed before they could do so.

The Notorious LOL

09-12-2006, 11:13 PM

Flight 77 has 64 passengers, and Flight 93 has 37.

Thats 101 people aboard two separate flights that we are expected to believe were either kidnapped or brought to an undisclosed location and killed and both of these flights somehow just mysteriously dissapeared. Air Traffic controllers working that day were somehow threatened into not saying anything, this went unnoticed by a crowded airport and the FAA. You're considering hundreds of people whom according to these bullshit theories that would not have had a direct plot in any of this...and for some reason no ones said anything to arise any suspicion? I know that this of course goes hand in hand with the argument that the media is controlled. To believe that the government has such an ICEY DEATH GRIP on the media that this coupled with that whole bullshit theory involving 93 landing somewhere in Ohio? These would all be things that would have taken notice. Planes are big. They just dont dissapear without people noticing. I dont buy it.

Documad

09-12-2006, 11:56 PM

I am most certainly marginalizing. That was my intention.

I typed a huge rant and deleted it because I feel foolish participating in this discussion. I wonder why people are so attracted to the most improbable conspiracy theories. I wonder if it's because the truth is so frightening. Our government has so little ability to protect us.

For the conspiracy fans: I'd love to know what you're doing about this (other than posting on the net). If I believed that my government had committed mass murder of its citizens I don't think I could function, but you are apparently getting out of bed and I assume going to work each day. How is that possible given what you believe?

Documad

09-12-2006, 11:59 PM

deleted

D_Raay

09-13-2006, 12:44 AM

I can appreciate your sentiments Documad and I tend to agree with you for the most part.

I can say though as an intense researcher of the whole thing that I am not satisfied with the official story. It may just be a case of covering each other's asses, like you were getting at, which is despicable in it's own right especially with the rhetoric we are constantly hearing.

However, the Israeli involvement is troubling and left unexplained or discussed for the most part. That is the very thing that keeps me skeptical.

D_Raay

09-13-2006, 12:44 AM

I am most certainly marginalizing.
Why did you delete the rest?

Documad

09-13-2006, 12:54 AM

I've been staying up late to wait for election results and I'm wired from too much coffee. I need to stay out of this section or at some point I'll post something I shouldn't from my life. :o

Pres Zount

09-13-2006, 01:04 AM

im not saying that is why the towers were attacked. im saying that it is simply one more end where certain people profitted from this,

when you look for the true culprits of the event, look for those who profitted, follow the money
So, was it because of the profiteers, or not?

'They' are a bunch of bastards, and I would love to see them all hang, but I think you are giving 'them' more credit than is due. They are nothing more than opportunists in this case.

People have been making money of wars for a long time, it doesn't mean they are responsible for them.

EDITED: to fix quotes.

The Notorious LOL

09-13-2006, 01:16 AM

barfcity

09-13-2006, 02:33 AM

notorious: "Air Traffic controllers working that day were somehow threatened into not saying anything, this went unnoticed by a crowded airport and the FAA. You're considering hundreds of people whom according to these bullshit theories that would not have had a direct plot in any of this...and for some reason no ones said anything to arise any suspicion? I know that this of course goes hand in hand with the argument that the media is controlled. To believe that the government has such an ICEY DEATH GRIP on the media that this coupled with that whole bullshit theory involving 93 landing somewhere in Ohio?"

who knows where those people ended up...the ohio theory is only one interpretation based on some solid evidence, but i dont think its concrete, more information would be needed to convince me.
its important to know that securecom, run by marvin bush, was in control of security at dulles international airport, for united airlines, and the wtc...three important facts. all it would take is for someone within securecom, or an operative allowed to infilitrate security to install remote control devices in the airplanes for the flights which hit the towers. thats it! it has nothing to do with air traffic controllers, or anyone else, it has nothing to do with media.

it is also important to understand that when it comes to military heirarchy, individuals follow orders and do their jobs. entire airports were evacuated and national guard and other military took over. all it takes is for one higher official, perhaps one of the highest, to come in and call the shots, order evidence here, remove people from here etc...

and i think that is important here; we need to research the higher-ups, we need to find out who called out and ordered the war games on 9-11. we know cheney, bush and rumsfelt reorganized things so that they were on the helm to give orders to shoot down the plane(s)- minetta's testimony was only re: the pentagon strike. my guess is that we should be investigating cheney, rumsfeld, bush, the israeli connections (art students, those fucks dancing around outside their van as the towers fell), cia officials (intelligence failures), fbi officials (investigation coverups)...keeping in mind that it only takes a higher-up to order an entire investigation scrapped, or redirected.

documad: "For the conspiracy fans: I'd love to know what you're doing about this (other than posting on the net). If I believed that my government had committed mass murder of its citizens I don't think I could function, but you are apparently getting out of bed and I assume going to work each day. How is that possible given what you believe?"

i think we need an end to corporations running things, a seperation of government and corporate lobbyists, an end to corruption. i think we need government to give us free school, free healthcare, and protection, not pre-emption or restriction. we need to redistribute and reorganize power in communities, focus on decentralizing and creating localized economies. we also need to focus on sustainability and conservation. i try to push for all of that in all my actions, but have to compromise. i hope one day i dont have to.
i make t-shirts, protest, write, spray graffitti, speak up, gather allies, and am open to being as legal as i can, when i have to be.

pres zount: "So, was it because of the profiteers, or not?

'They' are a bunch of bastards, and I would love to see them all hang, but I think you are giving 'them' more credit than is due. They are nothing more than opportunists in this case.

People have been making money of wars for a long time, it doesn't mean they are responsible for them."

the people who profitted are the ones with the means and motive to capitolize on this. i totally believe al qaeda planned something that day, but i dont think there is any way in hell that they could have pulled it off as it happened. i think that there were a few people, maybe 20 or so, who had prior knowledge and pulled a few strings to make it as effective and terrible as it could be to justify an endless war on terror, (war may hurt economies, may bolster them, but it sure puts a lot of money in defense contracting, i.e. haliburton, military industrial complex) and initiate PNAC (iraq war, afghanistan war, defense spending, regime changes blah blah blah)

how do folks get to the top of these positions? they sell their souls. they are quite capable of firing someone, of stealing pensions, of exploiting resources, of child labor, of slavery, of profitting of war and destruction, and of taking out the trade centers. cheney is PNAC is haliburton, is carlyle group, is vice president. george and rummy are equally connected... all those fucks involved in this administration are profitting immensely from the war on terror, from 9-11, from the iraq, afghanistan, from feeding us oil and exploiting us and our resources.

barfcity

09-13-2006, 02:34 AM

NOW TRY AND ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS!!!

D_Raay

09-13-2006, 04:23 AM

exactly. Like a bunch of aggro-capitalist CEOs have the cunning intelligence to pull something like this off. If they did, Im suprised this super human think tank of villians hasnt managed to come up with a way to tax oxygen and blowjobs rather than wasting their time looking for buildings to blow up for profit.
They have you paying for water don't they? The most abundant natural resource on the planet but you pay for it.

When I was a wee lad you could drink from any faucet in your house and have no worries.

They have you thinking you need drugs for any and all slight injury/sickness/ridiculous shit like "restless leg syndrome".

They sent a gay escort/ illegimate reporter into the white house briefing room to lob softball questions at the president.

Recently they have gotten to telling us we are safe but not safe (whatever that means) and that we are cozying up to Al Quaeda for exercising the very freedom they claim to be fighting for in their "war on terror".

Those are just some random examples off the top of my head to show what is indeed being done to lace the pockets of select people even more.

And just what has this administration done at all other than to make the rich richer and the poor poorer? I hardly think a few agro-capitalist CEOs would have to be alone on anything.

I could go on for days with this, you get the point right?
Don't claim they are somehow righteous in some avenues while in others they are not.

We are consumers bent over in front of a huge dick and are treated as such.

D_Raay

09-13-2006, 04:25 AM

I've been staying up late to wait for election results and I'm wired from too much coffee. I need to stay out of this section or at some point I'll post something I shouldn't from my life. :o
Get some sleep...;)

Pres Zount

09-13-2006, 05:00 AM

the people who profitted are the ones with the means and motive to capitolize on this. i totally believe al qaeda planned something that day, but i dont think there is any way in hell that they could have pulled it off as it happened. i think that there were a few people, maybe 20 or so, who had prior knowledge and pulled a few strings to make it as effective and terrible as it could be to justify an endless war on terror, (war may hurt economies, may bolster them, but it sure puts a lot of money in defense contracting, i.e. haliburton, military industrial complex) and initiate PNAC (iraq war, afghanistan war, defense spending, regime changes blah blah blah)

The people who proffited are the people who capitalised on it. Good one. That's pretty much a given. "i think that..." isn't a question.

Like I said, people have been proffiting from wars for a long time. You see these people making political and capital gain, and you get angry. Sure, fine, everyone should be angry. But don't make the assumption that just because they are using a tradgedy to further their gains, they were responsible for it.

YoungRemy

09-13-2006, 10:04 AM

surely,
by remote controlling the planes in to the towers, shooting down the pennsylvania plane, and launching a cruise missile or something else (definately not a plane that hit the building) into the pentagon. who knows where that plane went...

have you had a chance to listen to cockpit recordings, Air Traffic Control recordings, or 911/emergency calls placed from inside the four airplanes that were hijacked on Sept 11?

its funny that you demand answers to your questions, when all your claims can be proven wrong by these calls/recordings/testimonies alone...

that first one really made me laugh- remote controlled airplanes! hilarious

Qdrop

09-13-2006, 10:46 AM

And don't point him toward some opinion website or blog or video, just answer.
why not?
these "questions" have ALL BEEN ANSWERED 20 TIMES OVER. the links and videos i and others provide show this.....and it's a lot easier then FUCKIN RE-INVENTING THE FUCKING WHEEL EVERYTIME THIS DEBATE COMES UP!

the truth is that neither you nor any of these other 9/11 Deniers have the fuckin stomache to read the debunking sites or videos.
yet i've watched Loose Change twice and been to the majority of the 9/11 Denier sites.

the conspiracy 9/11 Deniers are the true cowards here.
they're afraid to let go.

they somehow think that means "Bush wins"...

That's what reasonable people used to do. If you can't answer than at least grant the fellow the courtesy of maybe being in the ballpark of the truth.
i can answer every fuckin question raised. i just don't want to do it for the 20th time.

it's like arguing with Racer over creationism.

barfcity

09-13-2006, 11:18 AM

have you had a chance to listen to cockpit recordings, Air Traffic Control recordings, or 911/emergency calls placed from inside the four airplanes that were hijacked on Sept 11?

its funny that you demand answers to your questions, when all your claims can be proven wrong by these calls/recordings/testimonies alone...

that first one really made me laugh- remote controlled airplanes! hilarious

actually, i have. for the plane that hit the pentagon, there are numerous quote by pilots, FAA, and air traffic controllers who say that theres no way that the plane could have pulled the maneuver it did...which included a very sharp turn and a drastic loss of elevation on its approach to the pentagon....perhaps mr cheney didnt want anyone to chase it to find that it was a cruise missile. perhaps.
as for cell phone calls and airfones, how would they know if their plane is being remote controlled or not? and it wouldnt necessarily have to be remote controlled until the final minutes of the approach. totally logical if you ask me. we have plenty of remote controlled drones, and planes in our military. its a very real, very possible scenario.

the radio contacts were quite mysterious btw, most of them have been destroyed or 'lost' and i think there was only one that was released where you really cant conclude or discern anything.

barfcity

09-13-2006, 11:22 AM

i can answer every fuckin question raised. i just don't want to do it for the 20th time.

it's like arguing with Racer over creationism.

its because your answers arent even satisfactory. as far as i have seen, you dont really take the time to defend your thesis- you just point people of to snopes dot com, or to popular mechanics. snopes is an urban myth website, with very little documentation of facts, and popular mechanics is a hearst, yellow-journalism publication, the author of whose article you claim as a source is none other than homeland security director michael chertoffs kin, benny chertoff.

take a look at those questions i raised, numbers, 1-10 or something like that, maybe theres only 8 or 9. so far, no ones touched them, take a stab at it dirk diggler.

Qdrop

09-13-2006, 11:35 AM

Barfcity = alias.

i'm thinking drizl...

Qdrop

09-13-2006, 11:41 AM

its because your answers arent even satisfactory.
fine, list out your "question".... a few at a time.
and i will answer them....linking only for source and validity.

as far as i have seen, you dont really take the time to defend your thesis- you just point people of to snopes dot com, or to popular mechanics. snopes is an urban myth website, with very little documentation of facts, right right....and Loose Change and all of those 9/11 Deniers sights are really chock full of substantiated and documented facts. uh huh.

and popular mechanics is a hearst, yellow-journalism publication, the author of whose article you claim as a source is none other than homeland security director michael chertoffs kin, benny chertoff. right, so that makes all thier science wrong.
they faked it all.
they're shills.
yes, attack the messenger....ignore the damning evidence.

take a look at those questions i raised, numbers, 1-10 or something like that, maybe theres only 8 or 9. so far, no ones touched them, take a stab at it dirk diggler. okay, cowardly alias....

barfcity

09-13-2006, 12:03 PM

lol

there are parts of loose change i appreciate, and others i think that actually hurt the 9-11 truth movement. i generally like what they did, they have the first internet blockbuster...made by a couple of college kids really devoted to this event. i think its great they made the effort, and like i said, for the most part, i really enjoy what they put together.

there is a reason why popular mechanics was chosen to publish the article, and a reason why benny chertoff wrote it. when you look at the history and context of which popular mechanics was borne, i.e., out of the william randolph hearst media machine, and its role throughout history of preying upon conspiracy theories, you see that indeed, its no different than quoting a source from fox news. its actually even worse...

the difference between conspiracy on 9-11 and the official story, is that the conspiracy theorists are more open to possibility, where the official regurgitators are so set on what the government told them, that they fail to even give many of the other possibilities a chance.

im not drizl, but i agree with a lot of what he has stated. i may be an alias, but im not at all cowardly. i just chose to step in and protect my identity, because this is not personal, im not trying to hurt anyones feelings, but when you talk about these things with 9-11 regurgitators, they get offended for some reason. i just wish not to hurt anyones feelings on such a touchy-subject.

btw, there is no definitive evidence that the towers collapsed on their own weight. in fact, its really almost impossible what happened on that day...the degree of success, the precision, the profiteers, the war on terror. see it in its larger context.

there is a reason why this is still an issue five years later. perhaps there is some measure to truth in what all these conspiracy theorists are saying...

barfcity

09-13-2006, 12:06 PM

Qdrop

09-13-2006, 12:47 PM

1. who gained (financially) in all of this- afterall that is what government in a capitolistic society is all about. this question is, in no way, evidence of a conspiracy.
btw, Silverstien LOST money on the WTC7 destruction, despite the insurance policy.
didn't know that, did you?
as far as who gained and who lost....that can go on indefinately and subjectively....
people who couldn't shop at the downtown NYC Barnes&Noble after 9/11 probably shopped at Amazon.com instead for a few weeks.
maybe Amazon.com was part of it!

2. how can you explain the administrations actions in rewriting defense policy and ignoring intelligence, Cheney and Rumsfield definately had an agenda with the middle east and Iraq. this does not make them complicate in 9/11....it just makes them oppurtunists.

then keeping on schedule with war games which crippled our defenses on 9-11? the war games did not cripple our NORAD response. the failures of NORAD were the result of established obsolete protocols.
contrary to popular belief, the training excercises DID NOT make use of response team jets or resources. that is a 9/11 Denier myth perpetuated by the uninformed.

3. why is there so much coverup and unreleased interviews, video and audio footage? what are people hiding and why are they hiding it? much of that footage cannot be released because, get this, the gov't IS FOLLOWING THE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW!
the confiscated videos from surrounding hotels and gas stations around the pentagon, for example, can not be released to the public before first being returned to the owners or without thier consent.
just like the Zapruder film of JFK.
due process takes time.
unless you want the gov't to break the law...

4. logistically, how could a plane hit the pentagon the way it did, leaving the building as it was. a loaded question....one which i am sure you are basing on the irresponsibley cropped photo of the crash hole...which Loose Change and 9/11 Deniers claim to be 16' wide....when, if you look at the ORIGINAL UNCROPPED PHOTO, you can see it be nearly 50+ feet wide. it's all shown, ucropped, in the lolinfowars re-edit of loose change.
you fell victim to an internet hoax.
otherwise, you will have list out what parts of the damage is puzzling to you.

5. why are there so many reports and testimonies which support there being bombs in the trade centers...there are literally hundreds. ah yes....a favorite of the 9/11 Deniers....take audio/video footage from the DAY of the event (sometimes minutes or hours after) when confusion is high, explanations have yet to be given...and use that footage as present day evidence.
what you'll notice in much of those "accounts" are people saying i heard "explosions". there are MANY MANY THINGS that cause explosions other than bombs.
also, you will notice that many of them say things like "it sounded LIKE bombs.."
that's called a simile.
do you know what a simile is?
hearing footage of firemen said they heard "these loud explosions...they sounded like bombs" does not mean that they were bombs.
transformers exploding, supports crashing, diesel tanks igniting...these are all things that make explosions....

6. why did the towers fall at nearly free fall speed? they did not.
another 9/11 Denier myth.
would you like some mounds of mathematical evidence.

it would be nice of you to note that not ONE civil engineer, or demolition expert agrees with this myth.

7. why does the government still maintain that wtc 7 failed structurally when larry even admits he and the new york fire chief decided to demolish it? ahh...you mean the infamous "pull it" order...
first off..."pull it" is not (and never has been) a term that demolition experts use when referring to taking a building down.
another myth.
second...when firefighters use the term "pull it", they are referring to one of 2 actions: pulling the structure down with wires to facilitate the iminent destruction of an unsavable structure...or pulling out thier men and equipement and letting the structure burn.
this is what they did....Silverstien made the call based on the tremendous loss of life already occuring in the towers....
and he ended up NOT making money on the insurance btw....
look it up.

8. why did cheney give stand down orders? an unsubstanitated myth. give sources and references.

9. insider trading? insider trading?
are you reffing the very high "put options" on the airlines in question on 9/11?
over 8,000 put options, actually.

did you know that piques are actually rather common...and bigger ones occurred earlier in the year....

but i know, i know....conspiracy theorists don't believe in coincidences....

barfcity

09-13-2006, 01:12 PM

ahhhh, so cheney and bush had an agenda thats why they rewrote the protocols in dealing with hijacked airplanes, directing all authority to themselves and rumsfeld. okay, so you admit that. well, that really has nothing to do with iraq, the re-writing of these protocols, but has everything to do with 9-11.

norman minetta, transportation secretary with the administration, was with cheney that day, when cheney geve the stand-down orders, heres a direct quote from the 9-11 commission, his testimony which is quite direct:
""During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President...the plane is 50 miles out...the plane is 30 miles out....and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president "do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said "Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!??"

so there you have it, cheney was given control of the orders to shoot down the hijacked airplane and prevent it from hitting the pentagon, a symbol of american defense and military/intelligence domination, and he let it hit the building, let that symbol be attacked.

opportunists? oh yes, definately.

Qdrop

09-13-2006, 01:14 PM

there is a reason why popular mechanics was chosen to publish the article, and a reason why benny chertoff wrote it. when you look at the history and context of which popular mechanics was borne, i.e., out of the william randolph hearst media machine, and its role throughout history of preying upon conspiracy theories, you see that indeed, its no different than quoting a source from fox news. its actually even worse...
popular mechanics is as bad as Fox news?
i'm sorry, WHO'S the one dabling in irresponsible, unsubstantiated mudslinging here....
why, i do believe it's you...

funny that you would use the same smear tactics of Karl Rove and other GOP politicos...

for shame.

list all entities that are part of Randolph Heast's enterprises, and explain how each of them are corrupt and shills.
really, do some research on that.

the difference between conspiracy on 9-11 and the official story, is that the conspiracy theorists are more open to possibility,
no, just opposed to the facts...because it gets in the way of a good story.

i may be an alias, but im not at all cowardly.
that's an oxymoron.

but when you talk about these things with 9-11 regurgitators, they get offended for some reason.
hmm..why is that, ya think?
perhaps because you are taking a national tragedy and using it as an oppurtunity to grandstand against an unpopular president by fabricating "evidence" and contriving a ridiculous story to feed your personal need for intrigue and excitement?
you dance on the grave of the fallen with your bullshit "quest for truth", if your quest refuses to accept the factual accounts and real science.

your "quest for the truth" becomes nothing but a selfish and disrespectful display of ignorance and narcisism the first moment you refuse to accept the mathematical physics of the towers coming down to structural failure...ect...

btw, there is no definitive evidence that the towers collapsed on their own weight.
complete and utter fabrication.
shall i link to all the data?

in fact, its really almost impossible what happened on that day...the degree of success, the precision, the profiteers, the war on terror. see it in its larger context.
right, as opposed to the 9/11 Deniers loosely proposed theory....that's so much more realistic.

there is a reason why this is still an issue five years later.
there certainly is.
just like there is a reason that creationists persist, holocaust deniers persist, moon-landing deniers persist, etc....

sam i am

09-13-2006, 01:24 PM

Qdrop

09-13-2006, 01:25 PM

ahhhh, so cheney and bush had an agenda thats why they rewrote the protocols in dealing with hijacked airplanes, directing all authority to themselves and rumsfeld. had an agenda? for 9/11?
no, do not admit to that. don't put words in my mouth.

well, that really has nothing to do with iraq, the re-writing of these protocols, but has everything to do with 9-11. says you.
if you do a little research on what those rewrites meant...they basically removed some redundancy:

So, here’s the wording of the July 1997 document:

In the event of a hijacking, the NMCC will be notified by the most expeditious means by the FAA. The NMCC will monitor the situation and forward all requests or proposals for DOD military assistance for aircraft piracy (hijacking) to the Secretary of Defense for approval.
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01.pdf

And for easy comparison, the June 2001 document that “profoundly changed intercept procedures”:

In the event of a hijacking, the NMCC will be notified by the most expeditious means by the FAA. The NMCC will, with the exception of immediate responses as authorized by reference D, forward requests for DOD assistance to the Secretary of Defense for approval.
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.pdf

So what’s changed?

#1, the statement that the NMCC “will monitor the situation” has been dropped. Seems odd, as it’s hard to believe they would do anything else, but in any event, as long as they deal with requests as they arrive then there’s no issue here.

#2, there’s a new exception of “immediate responses as authorized by reference D” (see the 911research quote) to this rule, therefore under some circumstances the new regulations require less approval than the old.

#3, Previously both “requests and proposals” for assistance required approval, now it’s “requests” only. Doesn’t seem to be a significant change.

#4, “DOD military assistance for aircraft piracy (hijacking)” is replaced by “DOD assistance”. This appears to do no more than remove a little redundancy, in that we already know from the beginning of the paragraph that this is about assistance for a hijacking.

And, ah, that’s it, at least with this paragraph: no evidence here that the new regulations affected the 9/11 response, at all.

norman minetta, transportation secretary with the administration, was with cheney that day, when cheney geve the stand-down orders, heres a direct quote from the 9-11 commission, his testimony which is quite direct:
""During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President...the plane is 50 miles out...the plane is 30 miles out....and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president "do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said "Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!??" how much research have you done on this supposed account?

so there you have it, cheney was given control of the orders to shoot down the hijacked airplane and prevent it from hitting the pentagon, a symbol of american defense and military/intelligence domination, and he let it hit the building, let that symbol be attacked.hahhaahha....yeah.
that's the only explanation of that incident.
uh uh.

Qdrop

09-13-2006, 01:30 PM

there is a reason why popular mechanics was chosen to publish the article, and a reason why benny chertoff wrote it. when you look at the history and context of which popular mechanics was borne, i.e., out of the william randolph hearst media machine, and its role throughout history of preying upon conspiracy theories, you see that indeed, its no different than quoting a source from fox news. its actually even worse...

from the investigators behind 9/11myths.com when the contactd Ben Chertoff about his relation to M. Chertoff:

"We never actually thought to doubt this claim, simply believing it irrelevant. The piece needs to be judged on its contents, not the surname of one of those involved. But then we heard a suggestion that Benjamin Chertoff denied the story altogether, so decided to email him to hear what he had to say. Was he really related to Michael Chertoff? And if he wasn't, then how could he explain the quote from his mother?

This is what he had to say.

Here's the story, as best as I know: I'm not related to Michael Chertoff, at least in any way I can figure out. We might be distant relatives, 15 times removed, but then again, so might you and I. Bottom line is I've never met him, never communicated with him, and nobody I know in my family has ever met or communicated with him.

As for what my mom said: When Chertoff was nominated to be head of homeland security it was the first I'd heard of him, and the same for my family (and, FYI, we'd already sent the 9/11 issue to the press by then!). My dad and I thought there might be some distant relation. When Chris Bollyn called and asked my mom if there was a relation (introducing himself as only "Chris"), she said "they might be distant cousins." Like much in the conspiracy world, this was taken WAY out of context. (Another case in point: Bollyn called me earlier and asked "Were you the senior researcher on the story?" I said, "I guess so," -- that's not a title I have ever used, nor is it at all common in magazine journalism, but I was the research editor at the time, so it kinda made sense.) Nonetheless, I was one of 9 reporters on the story, not counting editors, photo researchers, photo editors, copy editors, layout designers, production managers, fact-checkers, etc., etc., etc. who worked on this story.

Chertoff paints a very different picture from the original story. Some will say he’s lying, of course, but in that case it shouldn’t be too difficult to prove: go to it. And in the meantime, this acts as a useful reminder to everyone, including us: don’t take any 9/11-related claims for granted, whether they come from someone on your “side” of the argument or not."

barfcity

09-13-2006, 01:31 PM

did war games affect our response?

well, the 9-11 commission would have you believe that it actually helped our efforts, but....

http://nswbc.org/Press%20Releases/NSWBC-911Comm.htm

The 9/11 Commission: A Play on Nothing in Three Acts

By Sibel Edmonds & Bill Weaver

"...On the Fifth anniversary of the September Eleven Terror Attacks, we, the National Security Whistleblowers, want to go on record one more time to reiterate the significant issues and cases that were duly reported to the 9/11 commission by those of us from the Intelligence, Aviation, and Law Enforcement communities, but ended up being censored and omitted. The failure to address such serious and relevant issues, witnesses, and information renders the report flawed and the commissioners parties to a fraud on the nation.

The following Veteran National Security experts were turned away, ignored, or censored by the 9/11 Commission, even though they had direct and relevant information related to the Commission’s investigation (for the PDF version Click Here):

John M. Cole, Former Veteran Intelligence Operations Specialist; FBI - Mr. Cole worked for 18 years in the FBI’s Counterintelligence Division as an Intelligence Operations specialist, and was in charge of FBI’s foreign intelligence investigations covering India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Mr. Cole had knowledge of certain activities that directly related to the terror attacks on September 11, 2001. He notified the 9/11 Commission during its investigation, but never received a response. His name and contact information was provided to the Commission as a key witness by other witnesses, but he was never contacted or interviewed.

John Vincent, Retired Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI - Mr. Vincent worked for the FBI for 27 1/2 years before retiring in 2002. He worked his last 8 years in counterterrorism in the FBI’s Chicago Field Office. Mr. Vincent, along with Robert Wright, exposed inefficiencies within the FBI in working counterterrorism cases, and certain warnings they had tried to pursue prior to the 9/11 attack that were directly related to Al-Qaeda’s financial network and money laundering activities. Although he was granted an interview, the commissioners’ investigators refused to let him provide them with information related to his case and the 9/11 terrorists network; they insisted on limiting the interview to only administrative and irrelevant questions and issues.

Robert Wright, Veteran Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI - Mr. Wright is a veteran special agent in the FBI Chicago Field Office Counterterrorism Unit. He had been investigating a suspected terrorist cell for three years, when he was informed in January 2001 that the case was being closed. Agent Wright, along with Mr. Vincent, exposed inefficiencies within the FBI in working counterterrorism cases and certain warnings they’d tried to pursue prior to the 9/11 attack that were directly related to Al-Qaeda’s financial network and money laundering activities. Three months before September 11, Wright wrote a stinging internal memo charging that the FBI was not interested in thwarting a terrorist attack, but rather "was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred." The FBI refused to allow Wright to testify before the 9/11 Commission, however, the Commission did not insist or attempt to subpoena Wright; despite the fact that it had subpoena power.

Sibel Edmonds, Former Language Specialist; FBI - Ms. Edmonds worked for the FBI’s Washington Field Office as a language specialist with Top Secret Clearance performing translations for counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations dealing with Turkey, Iran, and Turkic speaking Central Asian countries. She contacted the 9/11 Commission in May 2003 and requested a meeting to provide them with information directly related to the terrorist attack. The Commission investigators refused to meet with Edmonds and informed her that due to their limited resources and time they were not going to interview all witnesses. She was able to provide the commission with information and documents only after certain 9/11 family members intervened directly. Ms. Edmonds’ testimony was completely censored by the Commission.

Behrooz Sarshar, Former Language Specialist; FBI - Mr. Sarshar worked for the FBI’s Washington Field Office as a language specialist with Top Secret Clearance performing Farsi translations for counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations dealing with Iran and Afghanistan. He had first-hand information of prior specific warning obtained from a reliable informant in April 2001 on the terrorist attacks of September 11. Mr. Sarshar contacted the Commission directly but was refused. He was given an interview with the Commission investigators only after 9/11 family members intervened directly. Mr. Sarshar’s documented testimony was completely omitted from the commission’s final report, despite his case being publicly confirmed by Director Mueller’s Office.

Mike German, Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI - Mr. German served sixteen years as an FBI Special Agent and is one of the rare agents credited with actually having prevented acts of terrorism before it became the FBI's number one priority. He contacted the Commission in the spring of 2004, but did not receive a response. In 2002 he reported gross mismanagement in a post 9/11-counterterrorism investigation, which included serious violations of FBI policy and federal law. Mr. German contacted the 9/11 Commission during its investigation and requested that he be given an interview session in order to provide them with certain domestic counterterrorism investigations that he’d pursued. According to Mr. German there were links between certain domestic and international counterterrorism related to the September 11 attacks. The 9/11 Commissioners refused to acknowledge his request and never interviewed him.

Gilbert Graham, Retired Special Agent, Counterintelligence; FBI - Mr. Graham worked for the FBI’s Washington Field Office Counterintelligence Division until 2002. In February 2004 his name and contact information were provided to the Commission as a key witness with information pertinent to the Commission’s investigation. The 9/11 Commission refused to follow up and never contacted Mr. Graham.

Coleen Rowley, Retired Division Counsel; FBI - In May 2002, Coleen Rowley, as the Division Counsel at the FBI Minneapolis Office, blew the whistle on the FBI’s failure to pursue Zacarias Moussaoui’s case prior to 9/11, despite all attempts made by the Minneapolis division counterterrorism agents. She reported that FBI HQ personnel in Washington, D.C., had mishandled and neglected to take action on information provided by her division. Despite her high-profile case the commission chose not to interview Ms. Rowley. According to Ms. Rowley, no one from the FBI Minneapolis Office (several Agents had direct information) was ever asked to provide testimony, information, to the 9/11 Commission.

Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer, DIA - Colonel Shaffer provided the Commission with detailed information on intelligence and pre warning information obtained by his unit’s data mining project, Able Danger. The 9/11 commission staff received not one but two briefings on Able Danger from Mr. Shaffer and his former team members, yet did not pursue the case, did not follow up on this documented report and refused to subpoena the relevant files. Mr. Shaffer’s testimony, together with other witnesses who corroborated his testimony and information, were censored by the 9/11 Commissioners and never made it to its final report.

Dick Stoltz, Retired Special Agent; ATF- Mr. Stoltz, a veteran undercover agent with the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, had played an important role in Operation Diamondback between 1998 and 2001. The sting operation involved a group of Middle Eastern men living in New Jersey who were caught on tape in an ATF weapons sting conspiring to buy millions of dollars of weapons including components for nuclear bombs. The case came to a screeching halt with the arrest of only a handful of suspects in June of 2001 even though there was ample evidence that some of the people who were attempting to buy these weapons had connections with the Taliban, Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden himself. The 9/11 Commission refused to contact Agent Stoltz despite all attempts made by several witnesses from the intelligence & Law Enforcement Communities, and the 9/11 Family group, Jersey Moms.

Bogdan Dzakovic, Former Red Team Leader; FAA - Mr. Dzakovic had worked for the Security Division of the Federal Aviation Administration since 1987 as a Special Agent, as a Team Leader in the Federal Air Marshals, and from 1995 until September 11, 2001 was a Team Leader of the Red Team (terrorist team). Mr. Dzakovic had tried for several years prior to the 9-11 attacks to improve aviation security in the face of the ever-increasing terrorist threat. He provided the 9/11 Commission with his testimony and documented reports. His testimony and report to the Commission was completely omitted from the final report.

Linda Lewis, Retired Emergency Programs Specialist; USDA - Ms. Lewis worked for 13 years evaluating and coordinating federal, state and local preparedness for nuclear, radiological and chemical weapons emergencies. Prior to September 11, 2001, she had reported numerous inadequacies and dysfunctions in emergency preparedness, including a culture of intimidation that discouraged federal evaluators from reporting inadequacies in state and local plans and preparedness. USDA officials had thwarted her efforts to bring in terrorism experts to help the agency prepare for attacks on federal buildings, including bio-weapons attacks such as the anthrax attacks of 2001. In vain, she had urged FEMA officials to develop a national emergency communications plan and require interoperability of federally funded emergency communications equipment. In the absence of these preparations, New York City firefighters and police officers were unable to communicate critical information on September 11 at the World Trade Center. Ms. Lewis contacted the Commission and offered to provide information regarding dysfunctional government preparedness, but the Commission never responded.

Mark Burton, Senior Analyst; NSA – Mr. Burton served as an all-source threat analyst in NSA’s Information Assurance Directorate (IAD) for most of his 16-year career. He was the editor of IAD’s premier threat document; the 300+ page ISSO Global Threat Summary, and was an adjunct faculty member at NSA’s National Cryptologic School. He provided dozens of pages of relevant information to the 9/11 Commission, but was completely ignored and never asked to testify.

The above list does not include many others from the intelligence and law enforcement communities who had similarly contacted or reported to the commission but had been either turned away or censored, and of course many others’ who are still working within these agencies and are fearful of making their identities known, due to the relentless pursuit of and retaliation against whistleblowers by government agencies.

About National Security Whistleblowers Coalition

National Security Whistleblowers Coalition (NSWBC), founded in August 2004, is an independent and nonpartisan alliance of whistleblowers who have come forward to address our nation’s security weaknesses; to inform authorities of security vulnerabilities in our intelligence agencies, at nuclear power plants and weapon facilities, in airports, and at our nation’s borders and ports; to uncover government waste, fraud, abuse, and in some cases criminal conduct. The NSWBC is dedicated to aiding national security whistleblowers through a variety of methods, including advocacy of governmental and legal reform, educating the public concerning whistleblowing activity, provision of comfort and fellowship to national security whistleblowers suffering retaliation and other harms, and working with other public interest organizations to affect goals defined in the NSWBC mission statement. For more on NSWBC visit www.nswbc.org

barfcity

09-13-2006, 01:33 PM

these people, who had very important testimony to give before the 9-11 commission, were either ignored, gag-ordered, told to shut up, or refused by the panel. why?

sam i am

09-13-2006, 01:35 PM

^^^^

Oh, this is rich, barf.

Do a bit of research on "claims" made by "those outside the report" throughout history.

Crap, should we amend the Bible because the Council of Nicaea omitted crap that was plainly untrue or irrelevant or completely fabricated?

Jeez, if we included every crackpot and disaffected media whore in every single Report that comes out, we'd have nothing else to do for all eternity....look at the recent example of Karr "coming forward" to admit he killed JonBenet Ramsey, since repudiated entirely. Should he still be on trial for that beacuse he "admitted" to it?

Idiots always abound where there is attention be garnered...

The Notorious LOL

09-13-2006, 01:43 PM

if you're very passionate about opening everyones eyes to the truth about 9/11, why dont you just use your real board name rather than creating an alias? Dont you think that sort of invalidates a lot of what you say when you cant even say it as who everyone knows you?

barfcity

09-13-2006, 01:44 PM

Wow.

This issue is still in question, eh?

Hmmmm...

BTW, have any of you seen United 93, World Trade Center, or The Path to 9/11?

Cheney was not given "shoot down" authority until it was far too late to get jets to the spots where the planes were headed for their ultimate destruction.

thats nonsense, we were under attack. and if, as the administration and the 9-11 commission claim, that the war games actually aided our efforts on the day, then we would have been in a position to prevent at least the pentagon strike, not to mention the second plane hitting the tower.

at 8:46 the first plane hit the north tower

45 minutes later, at 9:38, the pentagon is hit. plenty of time, given jets were already in the air, and that according to the 9-11 commission, the war games were actually helping our response.

Qdrop

09-13-2006, 01:45 PM

Idiots always abound where there is attention be garnered...

count Barfcity and Drizl among them...

barfcity

09-13-2006, 01:46 PM

barfcity

09-13-2006, 01:51 PM

you guys are hopeless.

anyways, there is much more truth out there buried beneath the lies and deception and it is a crime that these truths are being withheld from us, afterall, look at how they have become you.

bash arguments all you want, bash the conspiracy theorist side of the story, at least they are searching for a shred of proof amongst the largest, most important lie in american history.

i hope you all do wake up. i dont really want to argue with ten people at once. you're perspectives are not very broad, in fact, very single minded. watch the path to 9-11, and all the other "patriotic, reinforcing, regurgitated cover up scenarios" all you want, but understand that they are designed to misinform you, and to justify the crimes this administration has committed.

i dont have the time or energy to debate 5 of you at once. i just hope you realize sooner than later, how important an issue this is.

Qdrop

09-13-2006, 01:56 PM

barfcity

09-13-2006, 02:00 PM

im not a coward, and in fact if i ever ran into you in the streets, id rip your throat out.

barfcity

09-13-2006, 02:01 PM

your hip hop mix is real weak btw.

Qdrop

09-13-2006, 02:10 PM

yes, we're really taking you seriously now.

well done.

YoungRemy

09-13-2006, 02:46 PM

actually, i have. for the plane that hit the pentagon, there are numerous quote by pilots, FAA, and air traffic controllers who say that theres no way that the plane could have pulled the maneuver it did...which included a very sharp turn and a drastic loss of elevation on its approach to the pentagon....perhaps mr cheney didnt want anyone to chase it to find that it was a cruise missile. perhaps.
as for cell phone calls and airfones, how would they know if their plane is being remote controlled or not? and it wouldnt necessarily have to be remote controlled until the final minutes of the approach. totally logical if you ask me. we have plenty of remote controlled drones, and planes in our military. its a very real, very possible scenario.

the radio contacts were quite mysterious btw, most of them have been destroyed or 'lost' and i think there was only one that was released where you really cant conclude or discern anything.

good thing you didnt provide any research, links or evidence to back your claims, now I dont have to painstakingly go back and provide documents or transcripts of the events that actually took place on the planes...

QueenAdrock

09-13-2006, 02:53 PM

BTW, have any of you seen United 93, World Trade Center, or The Path to 9/11?

The Path to 9/11 isn't all based on facts. They took bits and pieces of different things to make this "docu-drama."

The director of the film, David Cunningham, is already backtracking about its accuracy, saying “this is not a documentary.” OK, fair enough. But the movie is being billed as “based on The 9/11 Commission Report.”

http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=70931

DroppinScience

09-13-2006, 04:04 PM

I like how barfcity gets proven wrong (my personal favorite... false allegations that Ben Chertoff, author of the Popular Mechanics piece, is Michael Chertoff's cousin when the two AREN'T EVEN RELATED WHATSOEVER!), yet we're still all "hopeless" :rolleyes:

getoninja

09-13-2006, 05:04 PM

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

love this link (y)

sam i am

09-13-2006, 05:18 PM

real sound argument(y)

Thank you (despite your obviously misplaced sarcasm).

I thought so too.

sam i am

09-13-2006, 05:23 PM

The Path to 9/11 isn't all based on facts. They took bits and pieces of different things to make this "docu-drama."

The director of the film, David Cunningham, is already backtracking about its accuracy, saying “this is not a documentary.” OK, fair enough. But the movie is being billed as “based on The 9/11 Commission Report.”

http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=70931

For the record, I didn't state, nor imply that any of those three projects were historical, dead accurate truth.

I was truly more interested in if people saw those and what they thought and felt...not premising my conclusions on any of those movies.

Documad

09-13-2006, 07:17 PM

I think it's a very low blow to list all those people's names -- as if they support this crackpot theory. Colleen Rowley doesn't support this for instance.

Everyone agreed that the FBI and CIA and NSA, et al, didn't work well together and dropped the ball when sharing information. The commission didn't need to bring in every single employee at every single agency to testify about it. The commission found that employees at the agencies misunderstood the rules that governed the data they held and their authority to gather other data, and the commission found that changes should be made to allow more sharing of information between agencies. Pretty simple.

barfcity

09-13-2006, 11:16 PM

you guys are a bunch of fucking nazis

barfcity

09-13-2006, 11:20 PM

Former Head Of Star Wars Program Says Cheney Main 9/11 Suspect
Official version of events a conspiracy theory, says drills were cover for attacks

Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones/Prison Planet.com | April 4 2006

The former head of the Star Wars missile defense program under Presidents Ford and Carter has gone public to say that the official version of 9/11 is a conspiracy theory and his main suspect for the architect of the attack is Vice President Dick Cheney.

Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret. flew 101 combat missions in Vietnam. He is the recipient of the Eisenhower Medal, the George F. Kennan Peace Prize, the President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace, the Society of Military Engineers Gold Medal (twice), six Air Medals, and dozens of other awards and honors. His Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech. He chaired 8 major international conferences, and is one of the country’s foremost experts on National Security.

Bowman worked secretly for the US government on the Star Wars project and was the first to coin the very term in a 1977 secret memo. After Bowman realized that the program was only ever intended to be used as an aggressive and not defensive tool, as part of a plan to initiate a nuclear war with the Soviets, he left the program and campaigned against it.

In an interview with The Alex Jones Show aired nationally on the GCN Radio Network, Bowman (pictured below) stated that at the bare minimum if Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda were involved in 9/11 then the government stood down and allowed the attacks to happen. He said it is plausible that the entire chain of military command were unaware of what was taking place and were used as tools by the people pulling the strings behind the attack.

Bowman outlined how the drills on the morning of 9/11 that simulated planes crashing into buildings on the east coast were used as a cover to dupe unwitting air defense personnel into not responding quickly enough to stop the attack.

"The exercises that went on that morning simulating the exact kind of thing that was happening so confused the people in the FAA and NORAD....that they didn't they didn't know what was real and what was part of the exercise," said Bowman

"I think the people who planned and carried out those exercises, they're the ones that should be the object of investigation."

Asked if he could name a prime suspect who was the likely architect behind the attacks, Bowman stated, "If I had to narrow it down to one person....I think my prime suspect would be Dick Cheney."

Bowman said that privately his military fighter pilot peers and colleagues did not disagree with his sentiments about the real story behind 9/11.

Bowman agreed that the US was in danger of slipping into a dictatorship and stated, "I think there's been nothing closer to fascism than what we've seen lately from this government."

Bowman slammed the Patriot Act as having, "Done more to destroy the rights of Americans than all of our enemies combined."

Bowman trashed the 9/11 Commission as a politically motivated cover-up with abounding conflicts of interest, charging, "The 9/11 Commission omitted anything that might be the least bit suspicious or embarrassing or in any way detract from the official conspiracy so it was a total whitewash."

"There needs to be a true investigation, not the kind of sham investigations we have had with the 9/11 omission and all the rest of that junk," said Bowman.

Asked if the perpetrators of 9/11 were preparing to stage another false-flag attack to reinvigorate their agenda Bowman agreed that, "I can see that and I hope they can't pull it off, I hope they are prevented from pulling it off but I know darn good and well they'd like to have another one."

A mainstay of the attack pieces against Charlie Sheen have been that he is not credible enough to speak on the topic of 9/11. These charges are ridiculed by the fact that Sheen is an expert on 9/11 who spends hours a day meticulously researching the topic, something that the attack dogs have failed to do, aiming their comments solely at Sheen's personal life and ignoring his invitation to challenge him on the facts.

In addition, from the very start we have put forth eminently credible individuals only for them to be ignored by the establishment media. Physics Professors, former White House advisors and CIA analysts, the father of Reaganomics, German Defense Ministers and Bush's former Secretary of the Treasury, have all gone public on 9/11 but have been uniformly ignored by the majority of the establishment press.

Will Robert Bowman also be blackballed as the mainstream continue to misrepresent the 9/11 truth movement as an occupation of the fringe minority?

Bowman is currently running for Congress in Florida's 15th District.

The Notorious LOL

09-13-2006, 11:43 PM

thats speculative. Its a belief. It doesnt prove anything.

Theres nothing wrong with people thinking outside of the box, but to state that there is all this conclusive proof regarding September 11th when all there is is speculation and nothing else is asanine.

Documad

09-13-2006, 11:43 PM

Well, if you have Charlie Sheen on your side, then I'm throwing in the towel.

Documad

09-13-2006, 11:44 PM

A mainstay of the attack pieces against Charlie Sheen have been that he is not credible enough to speak on the topic of 9/11. These charges are ridiculed by the fact that Sheen is an expert on 9/11 who spends hours a day meticulously researching the topic, something that the attack dogs have failed to do, aiming their comments solely at Sheen's personal life and ignoring his invitation to challenge him on the facts.
That is some funny shit.

The Notorious LOL

09-13-2006, 11:45 PM

I wondered why the hell the article just suddenly shifted gears and started referencing brother of EMILIO ESTEVEZ, Charlie Sheen.

Documad

09-13-2006, 11:50 PM

I would have thought that Charlie was too busy with his new kids clothing line, anger management classes, sitcom career, custody schedule, and new lovelife, to battle experts from MIT and the like.

DroppinScience

09-14-2006, 12:16 AM

You guys are too much. :D

Qdrop

09-14-2006, 08:02 AM

Barfcity is winning our hearts and minds with his threats of violence, accusations of nazism, and quoting articles from Alex Jones.

what a patriot.

barfcity

09-14-2006, 10:27 AM

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14806772/?GT1=8506
WASHINGTON - Nonlethal weapons such as high-power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd-control situations before they are used on the battlefield, the Air Force secretary said Tuesday.

Domestic use would make it easier to avoid questions in the international community over any possible safety concerns, said Secretary Michael Wynne.

“If we’re not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation,” said Wynne. “(Because) if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press.”
The Air Force has funded research into nonlethal weapons, but he said the service isn’t likely to spend more money on development until injury issues are reviewed by medical experts and resolved.

Nonlethal weapons generally can weaken people if they are hit with the beam. Some of the weapons can emit short, intense energy pulses that also can be effective in disabling some electronic devices.

On another subject, Wynne said he expects to pick a new contractor for the next generation of aerial refueling tankers by next summer. He said a draft request for bids will be put out next month, and there are two qualified bidders: The Boeing Co. and a team of Northrop Grumman Corp. and European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., the majority owner of European jet maker Airbus SAS.

The contract is expected to be worth at least $20 billion.

Chicago-based Boeing lost the tanker deal in 2004 amid revelations that it had hired a top Air Force acquisitions official who had given the company preferential treatment.

Air Force tightens its belt
Wynne also said the Air Force, which is already chopping 40,000 active duty, civilian and reserves jobs, is now struggling to find new ways to slash about $1.8 billion from its budget to cover costs from the latest round of base closings.

He said he can’t cut more people, and it would not be wise to take funding from military programs that are needed to protect the country. But he said he also encounters resistance when he tries to save money on operations and maintenance by retiring aging aircraft.

“We’re finding out that those are, unfortunately, prized possessions of some congressional districts,” said Wynne, adding that the Air Force will have to “take some appetite suppressant pills.” He said he has asked employees to look for efficiencies in their offices.

The base closings initially were expected to create savings by reducing Air Force infrastructure by 24 percent.

barfcity

09-14-2006, 10:29 AM

q drip- eat a dick

the rest of you, can also eat a dick.

figure it out for yourselves, or just sit there on your fat asses and reinforce the myth. fucking nerds.

sam i am

09-14-2006, 10:32 AM

you guys are a bunch of fucking nazis

This is especially funny because it implicates Documad as well, who, unless things have dramatically shifted in the past 6 months and I'm unaware, is a pretty mainstream Democrat (and I say that with the utmost respect, Documad, because my first impulse was to employ the "L" word ;) ).

barf - you're tilting at windmills by continuously posting rants from those with an obvious agenda. Use your own analysis and come to your own conclusions....don't be another blathering, synchophatic, left-wing nutjob, please....

sam i am

09-14-2006, 10:33 AM

q drip- eat a dick

the rest of you, can also eat a dick.

figure it out for yourselves, or just sit there on your fat asses and reinforce the myth. fucking nerds.

Has gizmo gone over to the other side?:eek:

QueenAdrock

09-14-2006, 10:34 AM

you guys are a bunch of fucking nazis

Oh noes. I better go and inform my Jewish friends who also think conspiracy theories are a bunch of bullshit. :(

Don't be a Nazi, believe the hype! (y)

The Notorious LOL

09-14-2006, 01:23 PM

q drip- eat a dick

the rest of you, can also eat a dick.

figure it out for yourselves, or just sit there on your fat asses and reinforce the myth. fucking nerds.

I have researched it. I was skeptical since day one. Ive read all the material, and yeah...there is shit to question.

I, however, find it extremely hard to believe that for one...according to various theories, Flight 77 and Flight 93 did not crash as originally reported. Where would these people and planes go without anyone taking notice whether its airport security or the FAA or air traffic controllers or otherwise? That is something that would require hundreds of people to keep their mouths shut.

Qdrop

09-14-2006, 01:25 PM

The Notorious LOL

09-14-2006, 01:27 PM

while the government runs deep, they do not, and cannot control everything as much as they may desire to do so. If this truely was an inside job, it would have required hundreds, possibly thousands to be hush hush. People talk.

memphisgreg

09-14-2006, 01:58 PM

1. who gained (financially) in all of this- afterall that is what government in a capitolistic society is all about.
2. how can you explain the administrations actions in rewriting defense policy and ignoring intelligence, then keeping on schedule with war games which crippled our defenses on 9-11?
3. why is there so much coverup and unreleased interviews, video and audio footage? what are people hiding and why are they hiding it?
4. logistically, how could a plane hit the pentagon the way it did, leaving the building as it was.
5. why are there so many reports and testimonies which support there being bombs in the trade centers...there are literally hundreds.
6. why did the towers fall at nearly free fall speed?
7. why does the government still maintain that wtc 7 failed structurally when larry even admits he and the new york fire chief decided to demolish it?
8. why did cheney give stand down orders?
9. insider trading?
etc....

please answer those questions if you really want to discuss this further. because we could go on forever nit picking.

This is exactly the questions I want answered, and let me add...

Why did Cheney write in 1998 that "In order for the United States to remain as an Empire we will need to experience something as catastrophic as Pearl Harbor" when discussing how to expand our financial and tactical objectives to keep economy and security prosporous!

Thanks to everyone for contributing to a lively discussion, this thread got much bigger then I ever expected!

sam i am

09-14-2006, 03:21 PM

This is exactly the questions I want answered, and let me add...

Why did Cheney write in 1998 that "In order for the United States to remain as an Empire we will need to experience something as catastrophic as Pearl Harbor" when discussing how to expand our financial and tactical objectives to keep economy and security prosporous!

Thanks to everyone for contributing to a lively discussion, this thread got much bigger then I ever expected!

The sad thing is that all of these queries were previously answered, yet you didn't (obviously) take the time to look through the discussion and see that they have been, definitively.

Just because Cheney wrote it, it must be true, eh?

Hitler also wrote that he would wipe out the Jews in Mein Kampf in 1923, then proceeded to follow through when he achieved dictatorial powers in Germany beginning in 1933. So, by that measure, you could be dead on accurate about Cheney.

Or, you could be wrong because most of what people write never comes to fruition and is just hopeful imagining or thinking.

The US is still a land of laws and checks and balances (as shown by recent Supreme Court hearings that have gone against the Bush Admin.). Wouldn't it be so much easier to undermine that institution than to have 9/11 style attacks? After all, Bush/Cheney have appointed 2 Supremes thus far....

Hmmm....no answer for that one, eh?

D_Raay

09-14-2006, 03:26 PM

The sad thing is that all of these queries were previously answered, yet you didn't (obviously) take the time to look through the discussion and see that they have been, definitively.

Just because Cheney wrote it, it must be true, eh?

Hitler also wrote that he would wipe out the Jews in Mein Kampf in 1923, then proceeded to follow through when he achieved dictatorial powers in Germany beginning in 1933. So, by that measure, you could be dead on accurate about Cheney.

Or, you could be wrong because most of what people write never comes to fruition and is just hopeful imagining or thinking.

The US is still a land of laws and checks and balances (as shown by recent Supreme Court hearings that have gone against the Bush Admin.). Wouldn't it be so much easier to undermine that institution than to have 9/11 style attacks? After all, Bush/Cheney have appointed 2 Supremes thus far....

Hmmm....no answer for that one, eh?
Actually, where exactly were they answered sufficiently?

They weren't hence the debate rages on still.

Qdrop

09-14-2006, 05:53 PM

Actually, where exactly were they answered sufficiently?

They weren't hence the debate rages on still.

it's all been answered, D.....you just don't like the answers because they don't fit you pre-concieved notions.

really, though..
please list, a few at a time....the elements of the conspiracy theories that you feel haven't been answered sufficiently.
let's have it out.

you've been limp-dicking this topic for years now : "well, i don't really believe in the conspiracy theories..not really...but there as some things...i don't know....i'm skeptical about some stuff...some stuff hasn't been answered..."

and to think you've attacked ME for being a fence-sitter.

Qdrop

09-14-2006, 05:58 PM

Why did Cheney write in 1998 that "In order for the United States to remain as an Empire we will need to experience something as catastrophic as Pearl Harbor" when discussing how to expand our financial and tactical objectives to keep economy and security prosporous!

for the 50th fuckin time:
http://www.911myths.com/html/new_pearl_harbour.html

like the PNAC is going to list thier super secret military agenda on the front page of thier website in their mission statement.
what is this, Austin fuckin Powers?

Documad

09-14-2006, 09:15 PM

This is especially funny because it implicates Documad as well, who, unless things have dramatically shifted in the past 6 months and I'm unaware, is a pretty mainstream Democrat (and I say that with the utmost respect, Documad, because my first impulse was to employ the "L" word ;) ).

barf - you're tilting at windmills by continuously posting rants from those with an obvious agenda. Use your own analysis and come to your own conclusions....don't be another blathering, synchophatic, left-wing nutjob, please....
This conspiracy stuff isn't a liberal/conservative thing. It's like the people who believe in aliens or in not paying taxes and living in a commune someplace in the woods with loads of guns. All of my friends dislike Bush and Cheney and think that this is the worst administration within at least 100 years but none of my friends think that 9/11 was a conspiracy. I also know a lot of people who work for some sort of government or government agency though and they realize that there is never an interesting explanation for what the government does. It's usually a completely human answer.

I'm not afraid of being called a liberal. :) I used to be a liberal republican. I'm a gun-loving law and order liberal who dislikes deficit spending and radical interventionist foreign policy and likes equal opportunities for all Americans. Definitely not a nazi. :p

DroppinScience

09-14-2006, 10:27 PM

All of my friends dislike Bush and Cheney and think that this is the worst administration within at least 100 years but none of my friends think that 9/11 was a conspiracy.

I once saw a headline on a magazine (forget which one) that asked: "Bush: The Worst President of the Last 100 Years?" and I got to thinking: "You mean there was somebody worse? Who???" :confused:

Documad

09-14-2006, 10:59 PM

People often mention the pre-civil war presidents, but I'm not convinced. And Bush isn't done yet. I'd bet on him being number one of all time before he's finished.

DroppinScience

09-14-2006, 11:37 PM

People often mention the pre-civil war presidents, but I'm not convinced. And Bush isn't done yet. I'd bet on him being number one of all time before he's finished.

Hmmm... I'm not very up on most pre-Civil War Presidents. Have they done anything notoriously bad? The closest I can think of is Andrew Johnson, who got impeached, but he's post-Civil War.

Nevermind. :p

Bob

09-15-2006, 12:55 AM

hmm..there's zachary taylor, he got killed by pickles for god's sake. that's pretty bad

D_Raay

09-15-2006, 04:56 AM

for the 50th fuckin time:
http://www.911myths.com/html/new_pearl_harbour.html

like the PNAC is going to list thier super secret military agenda on the front page of thier website in their mission statement.
what is this, Austin fuckin Powers?
Now, it’s certainly true that Bush has continued to fund it, and with significant budget increases immediately post 9/11, but who says he wouldn’t have done so anyway?
It's right there in your own shitty website, read between the lines.

They seem to have the same grammar and spelling mishaps you do as well.

Why fund something started by neo-conservatives and then not try to further their own stated agendas? These fellows have certainly never been shy about attempting reach their goals as evidenced by the last 6 years.

D_Raay

09-15-2006, 05:03 AM

it's all been answered, D.....you just don't like the answers because they don't fit you pre-concieved notions.

really, though..
please list, a few at a time....the elements of the conspiracy theories that you feel haven't been answered sufficiently.
let's have it out.

you've been limp-dicking this topic for years now : "well, i don't really believe in the conspiracy theories..not really...but there as some things...i don't know....i'm skeptical about some stuff...some stuff hasn't been answered..."

and to think you've attacked ME for being a fence-sitter.
I have no pre-conceived notions. I didn't wake up one morning and think "Ooooh, let me blame the Government for 9/11".

There are simply too many unanswered questions to just write the whole thing off.

As for debating it with you I really would rather not. I have precious little time as it is and frankly it is beneath me to waste words with uneducated fellows such as yourself who by some miracle have found out how to operate a computer to post their grammatically incorrect drivel on.

Sam, documad, I would make some time if you would like to go over some of this although I realize it is quite a cumbersome issue now and should probably just be left alone.

Qdrop

09-15-2006, 08:16 AM

Why fund something started by neo-conservatives and then not try to further their own stated agendas? These fellows have certainly never been shy about attempting reach their goals as evidenced by the last 6 years.

uh huh...and what exaclty is that "agenda" as it pertains to that "infamous" pearl harbor quote?

"So "transformation" refers to the process of introducing more information technologies into the military. What does 9/11 have to do with that? Nothing at all. In fact, the attacks demonstrated that one of the PNAC's pet schemes, a global missile shield, is entirely useless when planes can become bombs."

it was right above the paragraph you quoted.
you musta missed that.

and:
"The use of Pearl Harbour here means "a form of attack which we don't have the technology to counter", which now lets us make more sense of the first quote. All they're saying is that "the process of updating the US military will take a long time, unless the problems are made apparent by an attack that reveals our technical failings". 9/11 undoubtedly revealed failings in intelligence and response on the day, but nothing that matches the PNAC’s agenda. There’s no military technology fix that would have prevented it."

you didn't bother to read that far, huh?

funny, that "shitty" website just owned your ass.

Qdrop

09-15-2006, 08:26 AM

There are simply too many unanswered questions to just write the whole thing off. such as?

As for debating it with you I really would rather not. I have precious little time as it is and frankly it is beneath me to waste words with uneducated fellows such as yourself who by some miracle have found out how to operate a computer to post their grammatically incorrect drivel on.
you could just write "i'm scared" and be done with it.
rather than making ridiculous claims about my education, and my hasty typing technique.
just cause Ace left doesn't give you the right to ape his style.

i understand though, D...whenever you get into anything with me....i tear you up, you get flustered...and disapear for a while.
i guess me thrashing you really gets under your skin.

must be tough to consider yourself a real patriot when you can't even out-debate some "under-educated bad spellerer", huh?

QueenAdrock

09-15-2006, 09:35 AM

Qdrop

09-15-2006, 10:15 AM

One thing I hate about this message board is the idea that these debates are meant to be won. They're not. They're meant to open people's minds to other ideas that you can consider. The whole chest-pounding male-dominence that's exerted with the thought of "winning" debates bothers me.

Most issues aren't black and white, nor can they be "won" because no one truly has all the information on any particular issue that they can make an unbiased assessment of. I will definitely think I'm right, but to shove that idea down other people's throats that if they don't agree with me they're wrong is just plain silly. It's what the Christians do to me and I hate it, so I try to refrain from doing it to other people.

yeah, get your point...
i think a DISCUSSION follows suit to what you're saying, "opening minds vs. winning".
but in a debate, there are 2 views...and in some instances, only one can be right. they cannot co-exist.
there cannot be a conspiracy AND no conspiracy.
one person is right, one is wrong.
science backs one, and destroys the other view.
the fact support one, and destroy the other...

we're getting to the point now where mostly everything IS known...there are no glarring holes in info which leave room for debate....
9/11 Deniers scream that there is....but they are 4 years behind the times.

i undestand your interest in keeping the E-dick swinging to a minimum....
but debates such as this need to come to a conclusion...where one side must bow out and shut the fuck up.

the earth is round....we needn't "respect and tolerate the flat-earthers viewpoint".
Evolutiuon is real......we needn't "respect and tolerate the creationists viewpoint".
the holocaust happened....we needn't "respect and tolerate the Deniers viewpoint".

there was no inside job on 9/11 (neither "made it happen" or "let it happen)....we needn't "respect and tolerate the 9/11 Deniers viewpoint".

sam i am

09-15-2006, 10:40 AM

Interesting.

Q - Although I mostly agree with you, those who dally in the ficticiousness of their own reality still have the right to post their fantastical ideas on here. As for accusing those who live in reality of being on the fantastical side, they also have that at their rhetorical disposal.

Debate is healthy for all of us on these subjects, but I would tend to err on the side of continuing to debunk those fantatstical claims rather than shutting them off completely.

It's part of the reason that Racer, Ace, and Gizmo, etc., should be allowed to continue to spew their points of view despite all evidence to the contrary and despite (in Ace's case) their ability to ape civilized speech through wordsmithery and convoluted logistical gyrations : it exposes them, every time, for what they are. Reasonable and rational individuals can view their idiocy and delusions and make conclusions based on those fallacies.

It's like allowing the Nazis or the KKK to march : you see them once in their ridiculous get-ups, spouting their nonsense, and you make the vast majority of humanity realize their inability to deal with reality and societal norms.

D_Raay, however, I still have hope for. To a certain extent, I do for Queen as well. Why? Well, they both continue to post their points of view, attempt to back them up with facts and reasoning that reflects their beliefs, and answer back when you and/or I post our points of view.

Seems fair and reasonable to me.

QueenAdrock

09-15-2006, 10:51 AM

Are you referring to me in general, or me in this thread? Because I personally think the conspiracy theories are total crap.

D_Raay

09-15-2006, 12:35 PM

such as?

you could just write "i'm scared" and be done with it.
rather than making ridiculous claims about my education, and my hasty typing technique.
just cause Ace left doesn't give you the right to ape his style.

i understand though, D...whenever you get into anything with me....i tear you up, you get flustered...and disapear for a while.
i guess me thrashing you really gets under your skin.

must be tough to consider yourself a real patriot when you can't even out-debate some "under-educated bad spellerer", huh?
You go ahead and think what you will there brother, if even it is only you who thinks so.

I have no perception problems over my own intellect and cognition, and as I stated before I have precious little time to debate with the likes of you.

I simply come here to try to drop varying viewpoints and keep people on their toes; not get into "male chest beating contests", as Queenie pointed out.

If I have offended you then I suppose an apology is in order, which I don't mind at all giving.

In my world there are no fences, only common sense and pragmatism.

sam i am

09-15-2006, 12:39 PM

Are you referring to me in general, or me in this thread? Because I personally think the conspiracy theories are total crap.

I was more referring to our previous "debates" or discussions regarding abortion, etc., et. al.

Every once in a while you've posted things like "let's scramble baby brains," but I think (and fervently hope) that was solely for shock value and not how you have typically come across : reasoned, impassioned, and strong-willed.

memphisgreg

09-15-2006, 01:21 PM

Hey party peoples,

Seeing as I started this thread with the intent of sparking intelligent conversation and open minded results, I wanted to chime in. Lately this thread has gone off topic and become personal attacks of calling people bigots, nazis etc...

This wasn't meant to be a discussion about political parties. This is a discussion of, "Is there something beyond what we know of" that could have been affecting us. I for one, don't really believe that our President had anything to do with 9/11. I think he was just as shell shocked as the rest of us.

I will go on the record and state that I do believe that our government does what they can to protect us, HOWEVER, people own every part of the world - land, goverment, values, principles - they've all been purchased. Therefore, political agendas sway to money. People that have this money aren't interested in being seen, they are the puppeteers. To quote Shakespeare, "All the worlds a stage, and we, merely players." We are all working for the playwright. I think it's ironic and funny that so many people are "asleep" and don't realize, we're all under control.

So, was 9/11 and inside job? Of course it was, but who was on the inside? You'd have to define, INSIDE. I didn't mean this thread as "inside" the government. I mean it as "Inside" our oil industries, or Corporate sponsors, or countries with years of owning other countries policies! I don't have the exact answers, but I can tell you this, 9/11 was much more complex then Al Queda or Taliban, there's a network that would trace back to so many branches and countries, that I believe we would have a devastated world if it was revealed. And perhaps our own government can't keep up with the links.

My one comfort, George Bush has children. I have a principle in life that states that anyone that has a child and raises that child would never want something horrible to happen to them. Therefore I must believe he does protect us to his abilities from evil. I may not see eye to eye, but blaming him solely for 9/11 is assinine.

That's all I have to say about this, back to the music!
Peace and Love,
MemphisGreg

memphisgreg

09-15-2006, 01:33 PM

QueenAdrock

09-15-2006, 01:39 PM

...you mean the song of the guy who's also on this board and already posted it up?

memphisgreg

09-15-2006, 01:41 PM

yea, he PM'd me and told me to take a listen, it fits nicely into this thread

steve-onpoint

09-15-2006, 01:53 PM

I found a emcee on here that has a rap about what I'm talking about, "being asleep" in our society. Check him out, the songs called FIND OUT.
http://www.myspace.com/steveonpoint

odd timing on those lyrics!

hey thanks for peepin' it. i'm glad you deem the song as appropriate for this discussion.

...you mean the song of the guy who's also on this board and already posted it up?

yeah, that'd be me, Q&A. :rolleyes: ;)

QueenAdrock

09-15-2006, 01:55 PM

I was more referring to our previous "debates" or discussions regarding abortion, etc., et. al.

Every once in a while you've posted things like "let's scramble baby brains," but I think (and fervently hope) that was solely for shock value and not how you have typically come across : reasoned, impassioned, and strong-willed.

If I say stuff like that, it's either to a) piss off people like gmsisko, b) make a sarcastic point. I hear all the time "Pro-choice people love abortion," and to that I'd reply "OMG YES! Let's scramble baby brains." If someone makes a ridiculous statement, I'll follow it with another ridiculous statement. It's ridiculous to think anyone wants an abortion, just like it's ridiculous to think someone would actually get excited over it.

That's all. :)

memphisgreg

09-15-2006, 01:55 PM

hey man, get me that accappella, I can't wait, looking forward to doing something with it!

steve-onpoint

09-15-2006, 01:59 PM

i'm on it. it should be up in less than or equal to 24. hours, that is.

The Notorious LOL

09-15-2006, 02:02 PM

fart

Documad

09-15-2006, 02:03 PM

The Notorious LOL

09-15-2006, 02:06 PM

I think I won the debate.

QueenAdrock

09-15-2006, 02:36 PM

Touché.

D_Raay

09-15-2006, 04:17 PM

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blick.ch%2Fnews%2Faus land%2F9-11%2Fartikel45057&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

D_Raay

09-15-2006, 04:19 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13C-Powt6Zg

valvano

09-15-2006, 04:25 PM

this conspiracy theory sucks, get over it..

now, here's a real conspiracy, i've always thought there was more to this story than stupidity:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/espn25/story?page=moments/59

how in the hell can you be so stupid than to not know your time out situation???

i think the fix was in..

Qdrop

09-16-2006, 08:03 AM

D_Raay

09-16-2006, 03:38 PM

wow, some europeans and Venezuala hate us.

shocking, D.

i'm convinced.

fuck the science and facts...go with more popular opinion!

err...wait.....even the popular opinion doesn't support the deniers..
You are referring to the largest newspaper in Switzerland, who are neutral and yet to be on the record as hating us.

In relation to VIEW the university professor confirms the criticism:

Osama Ben Laden cannot be “the large godfather” behind the notices. It did not have enough means of communication.

Stahel doubts that a passenger airline cracked in the Pentagon: “For flight beginners it is actually impossible to meet the building so exactly.”

Seven hours after the twin Towers beside it the World trade center 7 collapsed. The official version: It burned for a long time. Stahel: “Nothing at all is clear.”
Hmmmm, let's see university professor and historian versus some schmuck who thinks he knows everything.

They have the same stance as I do. They are skeptical.

Qdrop

09-16-2006, 07:38 PM

Hmmmm, let's see university professor and historian versus some schmuck who thinks he knows everything.

They have the same stance as I do. They are skeptical.
hahaah...yeah, i'm the only "schmuck" who thinks 9/11 wasn't a conspiracy....
it's just me against the world.

don't worry that not one american Civil engineer has agreed with the Deniers demolition theory.
no, don't worry about that.
don't worry that the general consensus in the engineering and scientific community see NO evidence of the theories put forth by the 9/11 deniers.

i guess consensus doesn't matter.

oh, wait...unless we're talking about global warming, right D?
cause you and others have mentioned numerous times that the vast majority of climatologists and the scientific community at large have a consensus that global warming is happening and that humans are causing it.

so....consensus doesn't matter when we're talking about 9/11 conspiracies...and it's good to be skeptical about it.
but
consensus DOES matter when you're talking about global warming....and being skeptical about it means you're an idiot.

hmm...you're a..."complicated" man, D.

D_Raay

09-17-2006, 01:20 AM

Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals

On the eve of a Republican National Convention invoking 9/11 symbols, sound bytes and imagery, half (49.3%) of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall say that some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act," according to the poll conducted by Zogby International. The poll of New York residents was conducted from Tuesday August 24 through Thursday August 26, 2004. Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/-3.5.

The poll is the first of its kind conducted in America that surveys attitudes regarding US government complicity in the 9/11 tragedy. Despite the acute legal and political implications of this accusation, nearly 30% of registered Republicans and over 38% of those who described themselves as "very conservative" supported the claim.

The charge found very high support among adults under 30 (62.8%), African-Americans (62.5%), Hispanics (60.1%), Asians (59.4%), and "Born Again" Evangelical Christians (47.9%).

Less than two in five (36%) believe that the 9/11 Commission had "answered all the important questions about what actually happened on September 11th," and two in three (66%) New Yorkers (and 56.2% overall) called for another full investigation of the "still unanswered questions" by Congress or Elliot Spitzer, New York's Attorney General. Self-identified "very liberal" New Yorkers supported a new inquiry by a margin of three to one, but so did half (53%) of "very conservative" citizens across the state. The call for a deeper probe was especially strong from Hispanics (75.6%), African-Americans (75.3%) citizens with income from $15-25K (74.3%), women (62%) and Evangelicals (59.9%).
And you were actually comparing global warming skeptics to that of 9/11 skeptics? Again you take the side of this A CBS News article says the Bush administration is rewriting environmental reports to hide scientists' true concerns about global warming. The article says the Bush administration is also effectively muzzling scientists and restricting their access to the press. Phil Cooney, the chief-of-staff of the Council on Environmental Quality, gets blamed for a lot of the rewrites in the article. Before his White House job Cooney was a lobbyist for the American Petroleum Institute.government versus reason or sanity claiming anyone insane for daring to question Q-drop's almighty patriotic view of his beloved government that he apparently doesn't know all that much about. How'd that work out for you btw the whole global warming is bullshit thing?

I would hardly call it a consensus of people that aren't skeptical.

Qdrop

09-17-2006, 07:38 AM

D, are you pretending that that poll is claiming that half of new york thinks that 9/11 was an inside job?
what a fuckin snow job...

what was the question asked, D?

"Did the US Leaders Have Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks?"
"Did the US Leaders know in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act?"

i believe the majority of informed americans know about the reports coming in for months (years) ahead of time that were ignored...Condi Rice's report, etc...
that planes were planning on being used as missiles...
they were ignored due to incompetancy, and beaurocratic BS, and poor communication.

who DOESN'T believe that?
they knew a threat was brewing, some thought it immanet...but the Administration failed to act on the warning.

but don't pretend for one second that those questions or responses can be lumped in with "we think 9/11 was an inside job, and there was a conspiracy with the gov't". you know God damn well that a tiny minority of americans believe in the gov't conspiracy bullshit.

you know how polls work...i thought you were "connected" to the DC machine?
for someone who claims to despise the GOP spin machine....you seem quite adept at playing thier game.

And you were actually comparing global warming skeptics to that of 9/11 skeptics?

yes. why is it so heroic of you to be skeptical of 9/11, to the point where you are half-assed supporting tin-hat theories of gov't inside jobs...
but being skeptical about over-reaching predictions on climate change and vague scientific community polling and consesus on the subject is just asinine?

it ridiculous to be skeptical of global warming...because "everyone knows it to be human caused and the earth will be a smoke pit in 50 years"...
BUT
it's ridiculous to be skeptical of poorly constructed, non-factual, unsubstantiated minority tin-hat rumors about 9/11 inside jobs..."because...well....not many believe it....but....well....the gov't lies and stuff."

anyway you wanna spin it, D....you're hypocrit.
i just pinned your ears back, bitch.

Again you take the side of this government
again? i've been as skeptical about this administration as anyone...and you know that.
strawman.
you're just putting on a show for the onlookers....painting me in an inaccurate light to garner support.
nice, Rove.

versus reason or sanity
ah....now reason and sanity plainly lead one to an inside job?
it's just reasonable to assume it now?

claiming anyone insane for daring to question Q-drop's almighty patriotic view of his beloved government that he apparently doesn't know all that much about.

yeah, it's me against the world...the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), nah, they don't count:
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

every American civil engineer...nah, they don't count.

How'd that work out for you btw the whole global warming is bullshit thing?

never said it was complete bullshit....but i had been, and am still VERY skeptical about global warming, it's cause, and it's rate...and it's effects until i see excellent science...and conclusive data.
THAT, D...is what skepticism is.
you don't understand that....the concept eludes you.

i have conceded, after conclusive satelite data and deep-ice core samples being recovered....that the earth is warming. i wanted solid proof ...and i got it.
now i remain skeptical about the effects of humans on this warming (after all, global warming and cooling have been going on long before man), the rate at which it is warming...and the real climate effects it will have.
if only you and othes demanded such proof for many of your beliefs....
incredible claims demand incredible proof.

I would hardly call it a consensus of people that aren't skeptical.
about WHAT?
the bumbling of the administration?
or an inside 9/11 gov't job?

and
"A CBS News article says the Bush administration is rewriting environmental reports to hide scientists' true concerns about global warming. The article says the Bush administration is also effectively muzzling scientists and restricting their access to the press. Phil Cooney, the chief-of-staff of the Council on Environmental Quality, gets blamed for a lot of the rewrites in the article. Before his White House job Cooney was a lobbyist for the American Petroleum Institute."

^ give me your source, first off.

and we just KNOW that green scientists looking for more grants and green-supporting jouranlists with thier OWN agenda never play with numbers to support thier interests, right?

only conservatives are bad.
liberal are angelic beacons of light.

no bias on your part.

fucktopgirl

09-18-2006, 09:27 PM

INteresting reading on a scientific who discover something really important on the collapse of the wtc 7

http://www.rense.com/general73/ZZIBN.HTM

"Last summer, after obtaining pieces of the hardened molten fragments from the WTC, Jones and other scientists at BYU conducted extensive laboratory tests and found that the molten metal was primarily composed of iron * with slight traces of structural steel. From the physical and photographic evidence Jones concluded that Thermite, or a similar aluminothermic process, was used to slice the central core columns and bring down the twin towers."

And this is the site of the scientific ,Steven E JOnes

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

Pretty , pretty enlightening!

Qdrop, you really should read it!

Qdrop

09-19-2006, 07:47 AM

you should be burned for going to Rense.com

and thermite is not used in demolition...never has been, never will.
it is a slow burning, NON-EXPLOSIVE compound.
it cannot be used as "squib charges".

9/11 Deniers don't understand this, nor do they care to understand this...

fucktopgirl

09-19-2006, 08:44 AM

Why should i be burn?

So you are willing to ditched the finding of a 20 years career scientific then?

By the way, i dont denied th 9/11....i just denied the original conspiracy!

QueenAdrock

09-19-2006, 09:08 AM

I've said it once, I'll say it again:

physics scientists explaining the possibility of bombs in the WTC < forensic scientist specializing in explosives for 30+ years who hates the bush administration and therefore has no reason why he WOULD defend them, explaining why bombs were an absolute impossibility in 9/11

If he didn't have better things to do, I'd have him waste his time on the internets here, explaining everything in layman's terms. It's a shame. Maybe I'll have him explain it to me and Brett in detail and we'll relay the facts sometime later.

fucktopgirl

09-19-2006, 09:13 AM

Did you check the collapse of the wct7?

that look like a control demolition to me...

cdubbsecond

09-19-2006, 09:19 AM

cdubbsecond

09-19-2006, 09:21 AM

Here's a nice collection of interesting facts... with a message we could all follow... and lead with!

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=99007732

Qdrop

09-19-2006, 09:44 AM

Did you check the collapse of the wct7?

that look like a control demolition to me...

and weather balloons look like UFO's to some people.

and grilled cheese sandwiches look like the virgin mary to some people...

you have to know what you are looking at, and have some relevant experience or credentials to say what a controlled demolition looks like.

if you really compare an actual controlled demolition to the twin towers and WTC7, you see no evidence of standard squib explosives or the botton detonation.

Qdrop

09-19-2006, 09:48 AM

How true... if you are interested in a very good new film about the insidedness depth and scope of which... check this out!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4755449627173127935&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en

ah yes....it's those dirty zionist jews...blame the jews.

the muslims were framed.

Qdrop

09-19-2006, 09:49 AM

Here's a nice collection of interesting facts... with a message we could all follow... and lead with!

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=99007732

"facts".

please list the "facts" on that page.

be responsible.
this may be a message board...but considering the tragedy we are discussing, have a little respect and personal responsibility and CHECK these sites and "facts" before spamming them from board to board just cause "they look cool and enticing".

fucktopgirl

09-19-2006, 10:11 AM

and weather balloons look like UFO's to some people.

WEll, thoses people surely need some glasses or should quit the drugs.

and grilled cheese sandwiches look like the virgin mary to some people...

Again, high consommation of intoxicants can do tricks on your minds

Are thoses people your friends?

if you really compare an actual controlled demolition to the twin towers and WTC7, you see no evidence of standard squib explosives or the botton detonation.

Well, i see control demolition clip and the way the wtc towers are falling are really similar to one.

The bottom detonation would be inside the basement of thoses building and a distraction was happening too.....planes where crashing in the top of the towers.

sam i am

09-19-2006, 10:40 AM

Q - She's hopeless, man.

She'll rarely, if ever, see the light. You and I have schooled her on innumerable occasions, yet her neanderthal cranium is impenetrable.

fucktopgirl

09-19-2006, 12:43 PM

Q - She's hopeless, man.

She'll rarely, if ever, see the light. You and I have schooled her on innumerable occasions, yet her neanderthal cranium is impenetrable.

That is just ace man, instead of debating on the issue, surely because you have nothing intelligent to say, again, you insult me... So much easier he?

I could say your are hopeless too with your fucking brainwashing knowledge.

fucktopgirl

09-19-2006, 12:46 PM

How true... if you are interested in a very good new film about the insidedness depth and scope of which... check this out!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4755449627173127935&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en

"Corporates Fundamentalists"

so true.

i tough the film was good altho the beginning was a bit annoying with the voice superposition BUT LOTS OF INFORMATIONS on the scam going on!(y)

YoungRemy

09-19-2006, 02:04 PM

a has-been professor from Utah and a Cable Access Television hero from his basement in Austin...

how about we just stop posting anything by anyone named Jones...

Documad

09-19-2006, 03:49 PM

Did you hear that the Jones guy was asked to leave his university and that his co-professors all disagreed with him?

So the conspiracy is even broader than imagined -- it's spread throughout academia!

fucktopgirl

09-19-2006, 04:42 PM

YoungRemy

09-19-2006, 04:50 PM

So what is your stand on the issue then?

I dont know if you are ready for what I've got...

4 airplanes were hijacked by hijackers, and the hijackers flew the airplanes into buildings and fields...

:eek:

there is actually a group of professors and scientists and lawmakers that actually believe in my theory...

i'll even post my hypothesis on a website if you want, that way it's more official...

Documad

09-19-2006, 04:55 PM

So what is your stand on the issue then?
I was joking about the conspiracy. I am absolutely sure that the planes were hijacked and that plane crashes caused the damage to the buildings. I believe that our government was poorly organized and ill prepared on 9/11 and that human beings in the US government made a lot of human mistakes.

Bob

09-19-2006, 05:02 PM

I was joking about the conspiracy. I am absolutely sure that the planes were hijacked and that plane crashes caused the damage to the buildings. I believe that our government was poorly organized and ill prepared on 9/11 and that human beings in the US government made a lot of human mistakes.

you are livinged in a states of delusion! why are you so brainwash!

fucktopgirl

09-19-2006, 05:04 PM

you are livinged in a states of delusion! why are you so brainwash!

YOu are living..there is no "ed" there man...learn to write properly!:D

By the way your imitation of me need some work!

D_Raay

09-22-2006, 05:03 AM

^ give me your source, first off.
It's right there in the post.

D, are you pretending that that poll is claiming that half of new york thinks that 9/11 was an inside job?
what a fuckin snow job...
You apparently neither see what I write or you have a bit of dyslexia along with the poor grammar and spelling that goes along with your "hastily typed messages".

The poll states what I have iterated several times and that is that people are skeptical and should be. I will not stand for being painted into a corner as some lunatic-fringe nut because I have skepticism over the official version of 9/11.

yes. why is it so heroic of you to be skeptical of 9/11, to the point where you are half-assed supporting tin-hat theories of gov't inside jobs...
but being skeptical about over-reaching predictions on climate change and vague scientific community polling and consesus on the subject is just asinine?
Because it is exactly that; assinine. This subject should never have been approached as any sort of partisan debate or bar-room conversation. We can afford to spend 11.5 million dollars an hour in the black hole that was sovereign Iraq on suspect intelligence, but we can't take something seriously that potentially effects us all?

again? i've been as skeptical about this administration as anyone...and you know that.
strawman.
you're just putting on a show for the onlookers....painting me in an inaccurate light to garner support.
nice, Rove.
Ha, that's rich. I am not entirely sure what it is with you. I think you just like to read your own posts.

Enlighten me oh user of the term strawman every chance he gets to make him feel he has thwarted and otherwise genuine point... I will expect more drivel to ensue.

anyway you wanna spin it, D....you're hypocrit.
i just pinned your ears back, bitch.

That's just too ridiculous to even respond to. Are you coming on to me?

about WHAT?
the bumbling of the administration?
or an inside 9/11 gov't job?

You just don't even bother reading what I write do you?
Being skeptical does not equal to being unreasonable or crazy.
Time will tell what questions will ultimately be answered here as our commander in chief likes to say, although in his case it is purely in fear of a reckoning.

only conservatives are bad.
liberal are angelic beacons of light.

no bias on your part.

If the shoe fits... or so I am told. When the conservatives start making sense I will be happy to side with them.

Qdrop

09-22-2006, 10:45 AM

You apparently neither see what I write or you have a bit of dyslexia along with the poor grammar and spelling that goes along with your "hastily typed messages".

The poll states what I have iterated several times and that is that people are skeptical and should be. I will not stand for being painted into a corner as some lunatic-fringe nut because I have skepticism over the official version of 9/11.

this thread is about 9/11 being an inside job (re-read this thread title again).
your statements before-hand alluded that a large majority of NYC citizens polled think that there was a conspiracy by the gov't pertaining to 9/11.

that is false.

now you are backpeddling.

this thread is not about those that are skeptical about the governments intelligence failures, etc....it is about if the gov't conspired to stage 9/11.

that poll did not reflect that.
that was misleading on your part.
i called you out.

you backpeddle.

you're pathetic.

Because it is exactly that; assinine. This subject should never have been approached as any sort of partisan debate or bar-room conversation. We can afford to spend 11.5 million dollars an hour in the black hole that was sovereign Iraq on suspect intelligence, but we can't take something seriously that potentially effects us all?
stop dodging.
explain, in detail, why it is so heroic of you to be skeptical of 9/11, to the point where you are half-assed supporting tin-hat theories of gov't inside jobs...
but being skeptical about over-reaching predictions on climate change and vague scientific community polling and consesus on the subject is just asinine?

don't spin, don't evade, don't skirt the question.
answer it, in detail...
create a persuasive argument defending that stance.
be articulate. take your time.

or shut the fuck up about this topic in the future.

Enlighten me oh user of the term strawman every chance he gets to make him feel he has thwarted and otherwise genuine point... I will expect more drivel to ensue. enlighten you on why you use strawmen?
because your stance on many topics is weak, and you attemp to hide that by fighting against make-believe, easy to hit, opponents...rather than the real and much more challenging ones in front of you.
it's a sign of weakness and fear.

or enlighten you on why YOU paint me in inaccurate and negative light? isn't that self-evident?

That's just too ridiculous to even respond to. Are you coming on to me? it's an accurate statement about how i exposed you being hypocritial in your stance of skepticism on gov't/political matters when science in involved.
you brush consensus and science aside when discussing matters pertaining to 9/11 Deniers,
yet you parade consensus and scientific evidence and credibility around when discussing global warming, it's cause, and it's effects.

how else would you like me to explain it to you?

You just don't even bother reading what I write do you? i read everything you write and analyze it. i respond to all your questions and accusations in detail.
unfortunately, you do not return the favor.
either because you are exposed, or just are unable to articulate yourself, or ..hell, i don't know...because you can't get yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into.

Being skeptical does not equal to being unreasonable or crazy.
agreed.
unless you are skeptical about global warming, right?
cause then you're just stupid, right?

there's that dang hypocrital stance of yours creeping back up...

Time will tell what questions will ultimately be answered here as our commander in chief likes to say, although in his case it is purely in fear of a reckoning. as far as the 9/11 Denier's claims, time ALREADY HAS told us the answers.

as far as the current administrations failing in intelligence and national security...more facts become available every day.
i hope they hang if they are shown to be completely negligent.

If the shoe fits... or so I am told. When the conservatives start making sense I will be happy to side with them.
i don't believe you.
i think you will forever rewrite your beliefs and perceptions so that conservatives will always appear wrong in your mind, and liberal will always appear right.

D_Raay

09-22-2006, 12:47 PM

or shut the fuck up about this topic in the future.
You know there are classes you can take on comprehensive reading and interpretation that can help you cut through the mountain of bullshit on a topic and actually get to the crux of a matter without all the spin that you buy into.
Your skepticism on global warming stemmed from a few sources you found to be unreliable, and you bought into certain information because they danced around the whole of the problem. What was that you were saying about siding with a specific side to the point of being unreasonable?

now you are backpeddling.

this thread is not about those that are skeptical about the governments intelligence failures, etc....it is about if the gov't conspired to stage 9/11.

that poll did not reflect that.
that was misleading on your part.
i called you out.

you backpeddle.

you're pathetic.

You continue to flirt with me...

The thread title is "9/11 an inside job?". My interpretation of this is that it is within the realm of possibility that the government either let this happen or even had some knowledge in didn't act on at all making it just as bad pulling the trigger themselves. I understand that people already accept the incompetence of the administration. I believe the question is is whether they could really be that incompetent.

This is the question raised by various scholars and professors out there. The details of such can be argued or even disproved, it matters little.
I don't suppose many cases would ever be solved if we were just content to quibble over details while not looking the gifthorse in the mouth.

enlighten you on why you use strawmen?
because your stance on many topics is weak, and you attemp to hide that by fighting against make-believe, easy to hit, opponents...rather than the real and much more challenging ones in front of you.
it's a sign of weakness and fear.

or enlighten you on why YOU paint me in inaccurate and negative light? isn't that self-evident?

Weakness and fear huh? I am under the presumption most of the time when I post here that whatever the topic, the posters are speaking from an actual informed position on the topic, the details of which should already be known.

As for that negative light, again if the shoe fits...

it's an accurate statement about how i exposed you being hypocritial in your stance of skepticism on gov't/political matters when science in involved.
you brush consensus and science aside when discussing matters pertaining to 9/11 Deniers,
yet you parade consensus and scientific evidence and credibility around when discussing global warming, it's cause, and it's effects.

how else would you like me to explain it to you?

You really believe that don't you?

My approach is to inform myself and then make logical conclusions from such information. I don't simply find a random source or article and then start trumpeting that view as if it were set in stone. I delve into something from all sides and then form my opinion.

i read everything you write and analyze it. i respond to all your questions and accusations in detail.
unfortunately, you do not return the favor.
either because you are exposed, or just are unable to articulate yourself, or ..hell, i don't know...because you can't get yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into.

I am flattered you put such effort into analyzing my writing. As far as yours goes, you really don't realize what a condescending prick you can be do you? It kind of puts a damper on taking you very seriously. Hitting the wall is what frequently happens when we converse in any great detail. Life is too short to constantly argue with you. Chances are when you think you have exposed me or painted me into a corner, I have tired of you and really could care less whether I could sway you to another way of thinking or not. If you perceive this as some sort of victory for yourself, then you are sadly mistaken.

as far as the 9/11 Denier's claims, time ALREADY HAS told us the answers.

as far as the current administrations failing in intelligence and national security...more facts become available every day.
i hope they hang if they are shown to be completely negligent.

Yes. So much so that the whole population is now quiet on the matter and the polarization is completely gone.

I hope they hang but I believe every word they say.

Qdrop

09-22-2006, 01:35 PM

You know there are classes you can take on comprehensive reading and interpretation that can help you cut through the mountain of bullshit on a topic and actually get to the crux of a matter without all the spin that you buy into.
Your skepticism on global warming stemmed from a few sources you found to be unreliable, and you bought into certain information because they danced around the whole of the problem. What was that you were saying about siding with a specific side to the point of being unreasonable?
and still you dance around your hypocrisy!! how you spin and flip!

and hope no one notices...

The thread title is "9/11 an inside job?". meaning a conspiracy.

My interpretation of this is that it is within the realm of possibility that the government either let this happen part of the 9/11 deniers camp, still.

or even had some knowledge in didn't act on at all making it just as bad pulling the trigger themselves. an entirely differant topic all together.

I understand that people already accept the incompetence of the administration. as that poll suggests.

I believe the question is is whether they could really be that incompetent. meaning a conspiracy.

This is the question raised by various scholars and professors out there. yeah, various scholars and professors. it's funny though...how many of those scholars and professors out there making claims on WTC demolition have any experiance or expertise on engineering or demolition?
is credibility ever an issue with you?

The details of such can be argued or even disproved, it matters little.
it...matters....little?
are...are you trying to sweep your and other Deniers inability to prove your theories under the rug?

NOW THAT IS FUCKIN BALLSY, MAN.
shit....you really ....wow....

I don't suppose many cases would ever be solved if we were just content to quibble over details while not looking the gifthorse in the mouth. and what's that? the big picture?
so, the Administration oppurtunistically pounced on 9/11 to further their own agenda...so...they must have helped plan it? what?
what's YOUR big picture, D?

Weakness and fear huh? I am under the presumption most of the time when I post here that whatever the topic, the posters are speaking from an actual informed position on the topic, the details of which should already be known. i think it has been plainly evident that MANY people have an incredibly weak grasp on the "facts" surrounding 9/11.

You really believe that don't you?
and still you skirt the issue.
still you refuse to explain the contradiction in your skepticism.

this is why i would prefer to have these debates face to face...so i could just force this aspect upon you...force you deal with it...while you stutter and stammer...and look away...

My approach is to inform myself and then make logical conclusions from such information. I don't simply find a random source or article and then start trumpeting that view as if it were set in stone. I delve into something from all sides and then form my opinion.

okay, informed one.
give me a brief scientific description on the causes of global warming...the science surround both sides, the science surrounding the human input aspect, and the science of the ultimate climate effects.
list your sources and reasoning...
nothing in crazy detail...just a summary.
as you are "informed" and have read many many sources and articles, not just one or two, this should be easy.

next, give me a brief scientific description of the contraversy surrounding the 9/11 Deniers claims (just pick a few aspects if you wish).
again, state some sources (and thier credentials).
nothing in crazy detail...just a summary.
as you are "informed" and have read many many sources and articles, not just one or two, this should be easy.

don't do this to prove anything to ME...do this for the many others who visit this board.
show them you are not full of shit.
take your time.

you don't have to.
but you should WANT to.

i will be more than happy to do the same.

I am flattered you put such effort into analyzing my writing. As far as yours goes, you really don't realize what a condescending prick you can be do you? It kind of puts a damper on taking you very seriously. Hitting the wall is what frequently happens when we converse in any great detail. Life is too short to constantly argue with you. Chances are when you think you have exposed me or painted me into a corner, I have tired of you and really could care less whether I could sway you to another way of thinking or not. If you perceive this as some sort of victory for yourself, then you are sadly mistaken.
so...what... are you quitting...again!?

but you haven't yet resolved the glaring contradiction between your skepticims on 9/11 and your NON-skepticism on global warming...

i was so looking forward to that...for about....5 posts now.

Yes. So much so that the whole population is now quiet on the matter and the polarization is completely gone.
well that's the thing.
9/11 Deniers and thier "barely informed" lemming followers are NOT quiet on the matter because not enough hard-core debate has been brought to thier faces.
and the bulk of them run and hide when presented with hard data and fact (or just plain reason), or refuse to really get into the science and logistics of thier supposed "beliefs" (like you), but continue bleating anyway.

that, and there's the tragic psychological aspect to believing in "wierd things" like conspiracies...
the whole psychology of belief...

I hope they hang but I believe every word they say.
do you hang these strawmen on your wall, like trophies?
how many do you have by now?

YoungRemy

09-22-2006, 02:24 PM

Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals

no link?

I dont know where you get this from, but I dont know anyone, not one single person in new york who has been polled, surveyed, or questioned about their opinions about the government's role in 9/11...

btw, its already been said in this thread before... this is not about liberal vs. conservative, republican vs. democrat, etc...

this is about common sense vs. overzealous activists

D_Raay

09-22-2006, 03:43 PM

no link?

I dont know where you get this from, but I dont know anyone, not one single person in new york who has been polled, surveyed, or questioned about their opinions about the government's role in 9/11...

btw, its already been said in this thread before... this is not about liberal vs. conservative, republican vs. democrat, etc...

this is about common sense vs. overzealous activists
http://www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855

Oops. That would be egg on your face.

I am not the one making this partisan, and I speak from common sense.

I dislike overzealous activists as much as anyone but they don't just exist on one side of the fence.

D_Raay

09-22-2006, 04:04 PM

an entirely differant topic all together.
An entirely different topic that just happens to directly pertain to the topic at hand. I didn't realize that was possible.

as that poll suggests.

That poll pretty clearly states that New Yorkers believe that the goverment had aforeknowledge of the attacks and "consciously" failed to act.

So, if that were true, how is that any different than directly carrying them out?

YOU DO FUCKING KNOW WHAT CONSCIOUSLY MEANS DON'T YOU?

But those people are all nuts too right. No matter that it happened right in front of their eyes.

yeah, various scholars and professors. it's funny though...how many of those scholars and professors out there making claims on WTC demolition have any experiance or expertise on engineering or demolition?
is credibility ever an issue with you?

Are you an engineer? A demolitionist maybe? I would certainly take the word of someone who could genuinely fathom such things over someone who simply reads a website and thinks it to be error proof without actually knowing even the basest of elements in the foundation of the subject.

it...matters....little?
are...are you trying to sweep your and other Deniers inability to prove your theories under the rug?

NOW THAT IS FUCKIN BALLSY, MAN.
shit....you really ....wow....

Twould seem you are the one with the stuttering problem.

My meaning being that of course there are the ridiculous theories out there that poison the main point.

i think it has been plainly evident that MANY people have an incredibly weak grasp on the "facts" surrounding 9/11.

Between what you think and what you actually know there is quite the gap.
I have researched this from day 1 and really don't see the point of rehashing every little thing along the way. My main point was made and I won't be waylayed into some endless debate over the particulars that have been hashed out at nausea on this very board.

and what's that? the big picture?
so, the Administration oppurtunistically pounced on 9/11 to further their own agenda...so...they must have helped plan it? what?
what's YOUR big picture, D?

The big picture is that that possibility should be left open. It would be reckless not to. One thing this admin. has taught me is to never to turn a discerning eye away from them, and never give them a pass on anything. They are the single greatest to threat to the American way of life.

this is why i would prefer to have these debates face to face...so i could just force this aspect upon you...force you deal with it...while you stutter and stammer...and look away...
Believe me that is the last thing you want. I will not toot my own horn I will just say that wouldn't be wise.

As for the last few parts of your post, I will get back to you. I simply don't have time left right now. I will get back to you though later on tonight after I spend the evening with my family.

sam i am

09-22-2006, 04:12 PM

I was joking about the conspiracy. I am absolutely sure that the planes were hijacked and that plane crashes caused the damage to the buildings. I believe that our government was poorly organized and ill prepared on 9/11 and that human beings in the US government made a lot of human mistakes.

Succinct and fantastic summary of probably the broad swath of the body politic on this subject.

Well stated, Documad!

fucktopgirl

09-22-2006, 07:51 PM

YOu know is it impossible to help enlighten individual if they dont want , if they dont have the will to.

9/11 was an inside job, get that into your brain !
I am sure that none of you, believer of the alquaida conspiracy , did check thoses link on this thread. I am sure you did not even take time to consider the other option: that you all have been fooled .

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3768803122384448937&q=9%2F11

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3281135121622917423&q=9%2F11

YoungRemy

09-23-2006, 02:51 AM

http://www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855

Oops. That would be egg on your face.

you cant give a survey or a study without a link... all i wanted was the source... you providing the link gives me more information, it doesnt prove the study to be true...

never heard of Zogby International...

I doubt anyone in NYC has either..

your little poll is meaningless... you obviously didnt get my point.... show me ten New Yorkers who were a part of this poll...

D_Raay

09-23-2006, 04:55 AM

you cant give a survey or a study without a link... all i wanted was the source... you providing the link gives me more information, it doesnt prove the study to be true...

never heard of Zogby International...

I doubt anyone in NYC has either..

your little poll is meaningless... you obviously didnt get my point.... show me ten New Yorkers who were a part of this poll...
You've never heard of Zogby? I am speechless. Even in passing I would think of you would have heard Zogby before.
Type Zogby into google and see what you get.
I know more than ten new yorkers who think that way btw.
And are you suggesting that polling is fraudulent? I didn't actually do the polling so the "little" remark is dubiously misdirected.

Qdrop

09-23-2006, 07:53 AM

An entirely different topic that just happens to directly pertain to the topic at hand. I didn't realize that was possible.
no.
conspiracy to plan or allow 9/11 is one topic.

the administration failing to act due to incompetancy is another.

combining the 2 is misleading and irresponsible.

That poll pretty clearly states that New Yorkers believe that the goverment had aforeknowledge of the attacks and "consciously" failed to act.

So, if that were true, how is that any different than directly carrying them out?

YOU DO FUCKING KNOW WHAT CONSCIOUSLY MEANS DON'T YOU?

But those people are all nuts too right. No matter that it happened right in front of their eyes.

unless you are inside the head of each of those people polled, than you really have no idea for certain how they read that question.

as i stated, most people are aware that the adminitration has tons of foreknowledge of possible attacks, but failed to act on them through incompetency and beaurocratic bullshit...

it's all in how one being polled interprets the question...and how those who read the poll results answer the question.
you've heard people say polls are useless....and this why.
just like statistics...

they can all be interpreted to read what you want.

you know 10 people from NYC who believe it was in an inside job?
i LIVE IN FUCKING NY....I went to college with someone who was IN THE FUCKIN TOWERS WHEN THE PLANES HIT...she got out before they collapsed.
From my friends across the state to here in Rochester....i don't personally know anyone how believes the 9/11 Denier shit.

however, EVERYONE believes that the administration had ample warning...but failed to act through incompetancy...
which is why i interpret the poll the way i do.

but i guess, you being in Virginia....you have a better pulse on NY than i do.

Are you an engineer? A demolitionist maybe? no, so i take the word of those that are.
NOT ONE AMERICAN CIVIL ENGINEER HAS AGREED WITH THE WTC DEMOLITION THEORIES. NOT ONE.

I would certainly take the word of someone who could genuinely fathom such things over someone who simply reads a website and thinks it to be error proof without actually knowing even the basest of elements in the foundation of the subject.
I see. so while neither you nor I are engineers....it is only I who is effected by this lack of knowledge.
while you and I both read websites on this subject...it is only I who is effected by the purported subjectivity of these sites. not you.

and your logic is that you would rather take the word of someone who thinks these crazy theories are possible....than someone who reads the website of the NIST and reports on that actual stuctural science.

yes, very sound.

I have researched this from day 1 and really don't see the point of rehashing every little thing along the way. i see, the failed baseball player-turned-investigator thinks he has more info than the rest of us.
a regular internet columbo....who has a friend in DC who "knows stuff".
yeah.
you got us all beat.

it's funny though.....cause i've been on this since day one too....and have been on this board when the conspiracy theories first starting making thier rounds around here (as were you)....can't say i recall you stating ANYTHING above and beyond what was already spewed by others...as a matter of fact...you really never said much....just chimmed in with some rhettoric here and there.
Deaf put forth the theories in detail.
so did a host of others.
you were all but silent.

The big picture is that that possibility should be left open. It would be reckless not to. you sound like every other conspiracy theorist out there: the "possibility" of something (no matter how remote), gives it a never ending foundation.

One thing this admin. has taught me is to never to turn a discerning eye away from them, and never give them a pass on anything. They are the single greatest to threat to the American way of life. fantastic. skepticism is great.

unless it's about global warming. can't be skeptical about that.
although it is possible that many of the theories about human input and long term effects could be way off....and that possbility should be left open (it would be reckless not to)...but no, wait....that's just dumb. right?
that's differant.

Believe me that is the last thing you want. I will not toot my own horn I will just say that wouldn't be wise. would you beat me up!?

awww...the failed baseball player (who still clings to the vestiges of his failed career with a queer-ass screen name) is the toughest guy around.
he'll beat you up if you debate him in public!
that makes him right!

you're winning our hearts and minds, D.

fucktopgirl

09-23-2006, 09:01 AM

Qdrop you seem to be a fairly wise guy, so tell me did you see footage of the collapse of the twin towers and the wct7?

If so, what do you think it is?
Did you not see videos where firefighter and others people, who where there when the catastrophe happened, stated that bombs exploxed at differents level?

How come everything has turn into dust, no fucking computerdesk, computer, phone where found: fine dust coated the streetand everything.
This is not the consequences of a major fire.

HOw come the owner of the wct employed the term" we decided to "pull it"?

Did you check the video link i post where it show how the world trade center where made to support many planes crash without collapsing and thoses affirmations came from one of the dude who was in charged of the construction of the buildings.
How in history , planes crashed into buildings and fire spreaded for many hours, did not cause the collapses of thoses buildings.

So what is your theory then...the governement was not efficient?
THe morning in question , they where eating pancakes and did not checked their skyradar?
How come army jet did not respond to the weird sky activities in that morning? When in 1999(i think) a suspicious plane was in the sky and only 20 minutes later, 6 army jet surround it ans secured it.

HOw about the pentagon?
What do you think happen there??
Where the fuck is the plane?
How come the roof of the part being supossedly hit by a freaking boeing did not collaspe immediatly? When it is obvious that if that sort of huge plane would have impact the building, roof would gave be gone in the first place.
How come fire did not burn materials in the offices just beside the hole? Where is the damages done by the wings of the plane?

WHy the governement said it was a boeing when it is fairly visible that it was not the case.

Dont you see that a lots of things just dont fit in the official 9/11 theory?

YoungRemy

09-23-2006, 12:23 PM

You've never heard of Zogby? I am speechless. Even in passing I would think of you would have heard Zogby before.
Type Zogby into google and see what you get.
I know more than ten new yorkers who think that way btw.
And are you suggesting that polling is fraudulent? I didn't actually do the polling so the "little" remark is dubiously misdirected.

and you pointing out egg on my face isnt misdirected?

I am trying to have an honest debate and you cant get past childish insults.

i am not suggesting the polling is fraud, i am suggesting the polling is flawed...

it is only a convenient argument for your agenda... it is no way accurate of real world opinions, in this case those of average new yorkers...

did the ten new yorkers you know get polled in this survey? i highly doubt it...

what if I were to tell you that "Nearly seven in 10 Americans believe it is likely that ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the Sept. 11 attacks" would you believe it?

"A majority of Democrats, Republicans and independents believe it's likely Saddam was involved."

well according to a Washinton Post poll taken in 2003, these are the numbers that represents "most Americans"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm

do I buy garbage like that? absolutely not, theres not a poll or a survey that can convince me of what is going on regarding popular opinion...

D_Raay

09-23-2006, 01:07 PM

and you pointing out egg on my face isnt misdirected?

I am trying to have an honest debate and you cant get past childish insults.

i am not suggesting the polling is fraud, i am suggesting the polling is flawed...

it is only a convenient argument for your agenda... it is no way accurate of real world opinions, in this case those of average new yorkers...

did the ten new yorkers you know get polled in this survey? i highly doubt it...

what if I were to tell you that "Nearly seven in 10 Americans believe it is likely that ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the Sept. 11 attacks" would you believe it?

"A majority of Democrats, Republicans and independents believe it's likely Saddam was involved."

well according to a Washinton Post poll taken in 2003, these are the numbers that represents "most Americans"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm

do I buy garbage like that? absolutely not, theres not a poll or a survey that can convince me of what is going on regarding popular opinion...
I completely see your point and didn't mean to offend you.

My only point was that I think it's a bit irresponsible to claim that it's impossible the goverment may have "consciously" allowed these attacks to happen. Hence a poll supporting that position. Not that you did, you just happened to respond to the poll post.

D_Raay

09-23-2006, 01:32 PM

So let me get this straight Q.

1). you believe my position holds no merit because I haven't spent hours at one sitting at this computer bringing up all the various theories and websites and blogs and videos etc.etc. that have already been introduced at one time or another on this very board? Would be a bit redundant wouldn't it? Are you questioning my ability to read and comprehend?

2). that poll does exactly adhere to my position. The words consciously and incompetent are opposites, and the latter does not appear in that particular question.

What is all that inside their head shit? Are you suggesting because it is against your position they didn't understand what the question was? I really don't see how that question could be interpreted any other way than it's original meaning.

3). I work in DC and have quite a number of friends that work inside the beltway, not to mention the several I have that write for or operate various websites of their own I actually spend very little time here. I guess in your world this sort of drivel on this particular board is of monumental importance, I am sorry it is just not the same for me.

4).You are quite the fan of personal attacks aren't you? I realize I am guilty of that as well,however I am usually drawn into that by your childish chest beating and shoolyard mentality.
That brings me to my "failed" baseball career. I wouldn't call playing in the minor leagues and retiring due to injury a "failed" career, I would call some armchair fool who never played in the minors believing that to be some sort of insult really pathetic.

I would really rather not have this conversation with you anymore. I believe the possibility should be left open that it is possible this goverment let these attacks happen and none of your rhetoric is going to change that.

sam i am

09-25-2006, 06:33 PM

:D 9/11 was an inside job, get that into your brain !

Ohhhhh.....now I'm convinced.

Great job, fuckedupgirl....your endless rantings and ravings have FINALLY convinced someone that you are correct...absolutely.....

for sure.....

that's all i need......

for sure....

fucktopgirl

09-25-2006, 07:49 PM

^ happy to have help you to see the fucking light!
Altho, i really doubt you have...

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1103725146236500421&q=illuminati
this is like 9/11 for dummies.

sam i am

09-26-2006, 06:58 AM

^^^^^

Ooooooohhhhh....

Dazzle us further, please.....

Can't wait to view the next riveting link....

It's like "Lost," only.......REAL-er....

fucktopgirl

09-26-2006, 07:14 AM

oh.......i can dazzle you some more!

But tell me , did your views on 9/11 change??

sam i am

09-26-2006, 12:25 PM

^^^^

Sarcasm is obviously wasted on the inebriated and/or delusional. ;)

fucktopgirl

09-26-2006, 01:10 PM

^ i am neither of thoses two.
Ohhh, i get it, you were refering to yourself !

D_Raay

09-26-2006, 04:12 PM

^ i am neither of thoses two.
Ohhh, i get it, you were refering to yourself !
Hehe, you can't beat reasoning like that sam.

sam i am

09-26-2006, 07:52 PM

Hehe, you can't beat reasoning like that sam.

Thanks, D.

You got me, fuckedupgirl. Party on, Wayne! Party on, Garth!

Yeti

09-29-2006, 10:47 PM

I recently read an article that claimed----38% of Americans believe Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11----how embarrasing.

sam i am

10-02-2006, 11:59 AM

I recently read an article that claimed----38% of Americans believe Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11----how embarrasing.

I recently read an article that claimed----100% of conspiracy theorists believe the Twin Towers were brought down in a controlled explosion----how embarrassing.

fucktopgirl

10-02-2006, 12:19 PM

I recently read an article that claimed----100% of conspiracy theorists believe the Twin Towers were brought down in a controlled explosion----how embarrassing.

How true tho!!

gorilla

10-02-2006, 12:40 PM

I recently read an article that claimed----38% of Americans believe Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11----how embarrasing.

That's pretty embarrasing. Where did you read this? I'm curious as to the demographic being polled.

Yeti

10-04-2006, 06:24 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1868480,00.html

http://www.newspolls.org/survey.php?survey_id=23

sam i am

10-09-2006, 05:31 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1868480,00.html

http://www.newspolls.org/survey.php?survey_id=23

Neither of those sites had the poll you are citing? Is there a better link to substantiate your argument?

Documad

10-09-2006, 06:17 PM

This is the poll (http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll) I kept hearing about on the news, I think.

Laver1969

10-09-2006, 06:22 PM

I haven't read much of this thread...but wanted to say that I saw a lot of the 9/11 conspiracy wackos handing out their pamphlets at Ground Zero this past Saturday.

Documad

10-09-2006, 06:27 PM

I haven't read much of this thread...but wanted to say that I saw a lot of the 9/11 conspiracy wackos handing out their pamphlets at Ground Zero this past Saturday.
Also a lot of tourists with fanny packs. :p It resembles Vegas more than any other part of NYC. I wanted to say something about that because it disturbs me a bit.

yeahwho

10-09-2006, 08:23 PM

They have slot machines and buffets at ground zero? hell of a name for a casino.

mellowlikejello

10-09-2006, 09:42 PM

well that was weird. i JUST finished watching a video on this topic about 5 minutes ago and i noticed this thread.....

a friend at work was going on and on about this topic so i agreed to go home and watch the video that he found so interesting.

www.seeloosechange.com

the video is about an hour and a half long, and to my surprise it really kept my interest. i'm not gonna go and believe all they say... but there are some really convincing pieces of information. everything from slowing down camera footage to show explosions, examining the hole left in the pentagon... there's some crazy stuff... if ya have the time, i suggest checking it out.

edit: this link was probably already posted in this thread (but i didnt read all 8 pages), if it has, sorry, if not.. great

Bob

10-09-2006, 09:57 PM

They have slot machines and buffets at ground zero? hell of a name for a casino.

true story (i've been told): at the center of the pentagon courtyard is a snack bar called the ground zero cafe. it's called that because one can only assume that at the center of a building as important as the pentagon, there would be something super important, like a silo, or the headquarters of the jewish conspiracy or something, so it would probably be one of the first targets to get hit in a nuclear war. but in reality, it's just a snackbar.

i forget where i heard this. it was either on the history channel or when i toured the pentagon on vacation in washington, DC one summer (i did not actually see the snack bar, i don't know what they sell there).

yeahwho

10-09-2006, 10:49 PM

huh? theres a Jewish Deli in the center of the pentagon?

Documad

10-09-2006, 10:53 PM

They have slot machines and buffets at ground zero? hell of a name for a casino.
No, they just took the same people from Vegas and plunked them down in NYC at ground zero.

Schmeltz

10-09-2006, 11:21 PM

No, they just took the same people from Vegas and plunked them down in NYC at ground zero.

Yeah, CSI sucks.

sam i am

10-10-2006, 08:01 AM

This is the poll (http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll) I kept hearing about on the news, I think.

I'm still looking for substantiation for that "38% still think Sadaam Hussein was responsible for 9/11" poll?

Anybody? Or was it simply BS to "try" and prove a point fruitlessly?

sam i am

10-10-2006, 08:03 AM

No, they just took the same people from Vegas and plunked them down in NYC at ground zero.

Crap. Now I have to stop visiting New York?:mad:

TimDoolan

10-16-2006, 02:35 AM

sam i am

10-16-2006, 04:01 PM

If you guys didn't see it, there was a hilarious South Park episode about the 9/11 conspiracy. Heres an overview from some conspiracy site.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/southpark_911_episode_equates_truthers_with_antise mitism.htm

That's hillarious that they feel the need to defend themselves (and their ridiculous beliefs) from even a cartoon show that is poking fun at them.

As Bugs Bunny used to say : "what a maroon..."

memphisgreg

06-17-2007, 01:39 AM

BUMP.

And to add - Follow the media and the corruption of who we get to vote for. wake up.

QueenAdrock

06-17-2007, 08:59 AM

THX FOR THE BUMP!!!!! WE HAVEN'T BEATEN THIS DISCUSSION TO DEATH, LET'S START TALKING ABOUT IT FOR ANOTHER POINTLESS 5 PAGES LOL!

:rolleyes:

Seriously, there's 4 other threads having to do with the "conspiracy" of 9/11 and it's changed no one's mind, nor even budged when it came to a middle ground. You believe your theories, we'll believe ours, we're all happy.

ericg

06-17-2007, 07:49 PM

http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/hearst.asp

That's where you can find that "Hearst" owner of Popular Mechanics, owns almost all media you can see on TV and in print in the U.S.

Scary.

Hearst- Driving the US into the ground since before your time.
You can find quite a historic and gestalt view of social matters ie economic, environmental etc... up to right now at www.hempfarm.com.

www.voxfux.com/features/bush_world_class_criminal.html is another among many that identifies the bush in bullshit. "so put your sewer boots on before your ass gets lit..."

and my own personal favorite, www.myspace.com/ericguinn if you can follow.

and yes, there obviously were and still are 'inside jobs', 911 for one, getting aired out. you have to be as dumb as the day is long not to realize this, even in the midst of all the static, 'business as usual' fronts and gridlocks that make many blindly what they are.

Schmeltz

06-18-2007, 12:55 AM

When you're done bemoaning the blindness of the poor misguided souls so besotted with ignorance that they simply can't seem to think for themselves, check out this killer piece (http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/8128). It includes many items that have been plainly obvious for years while various people dug themselves into worthless ideological frippery - like this concluding remark:

While many can imagine political leaders making mistakes, most Americans find it inconceivable that an American president could actually put personal or political interests ahead of the national interest or the welfare of the troops, especially on so grave an issue as war and peace.

But such individuals would do well to remember that there is a long history of this sort of behavior, and that it is an unfortunate part of human nature. The Europeans used to have an expression for this, which was all too well earned from their own experiences. They noted that "War is the sport of kings".

...

Some Americans may believe that, while Europeans have been unfortunate enough to have suffered under warring governments, that could never happen here. The truth, alas, is that it already has, many times. We know today that the stories we were told by our government to justify US involvement in the Mexican war, the Spanish-American War and the Vietnam War, for instance, were complete and knowing fabrications, as the secret internal history of the latter war - the Pentagon Papers - definitively proved in that case.

Today, Americans will have to decide for themselves whether George Bush's invasion of Iraq to protect the United States from the threat of terrorism was legitimate, or yet another example of a president sporting like a king, at the expense of the American people, the troops, the Iraqis, and the world.

History does not require wildly elaborate conspiracy theories to repeat itself, it requires only the continued perpetuation of the same human mechanisms that have always operated on societies.

D_Raay

06-18-2007, 03:40 AM

Well then schmeltz, what's to say that this particular "king" wouldn't take it a step further? It really cannot be known, there are too many variables, too many persuasive arguments from both sides, to have any definitive answer...

The track record , however, has been firmly established. The marginalization of a huge part of the populace is undertaken with glee with no end in sight.

I can't understand how someone as bright as you can so callously disregard intellectual musings and theories out of hand simply because it is improbable.
Conclusion is met I understand with free will and open mind on your part, but we are talking about something much greater than a simple illogical theory such as the cat couldn't have possibly opened the refrigerator to get to the milk.

This is much more serious and effects us all even folks in other parts of the world.

For example, take the case of Alberto Gonzales and the fired federal prosecutors. The truth is simply not an option here. It should be , but it isn't. I understand WHY it isn't of course... there simply is no other option, no matter how bad it looks, than to just claim to be completely incompetent and disingenuous rather than to sell his superiors out. Who's to say that if these people are willing to break the law on smaller scales and in greater amounts just to then claim ignorance on everything, aren't capable of pulling off something much greater to fit their goals. It really doesn't even require much competence at all just the will and the money, and the highly questionable mainstream media to carry it out.

Talk of authenticity, it seems, lets commentators and journalists put down politicians they don't like or praise politicians they like, with no relationship to what the politicians actually say or do.

And yes, that’s pretty much all there is to it. “Authenticity” became the press corps’ favorite buzz-word in 1999, along with its silly handmaiden, “comfortable in his own skin.” And let’s state the obvious: When the press corps adopted such subjective markers as key standards of measure, they were giving themselves the right to tell whatever story they choose. It’s perfectly easy to shape a narrative in which any politician is most “authentic.” As long as our standards of measure are so subjective, there’s no real process of assessment being conducted at all.

I am sorry but I cannot give these folks running our country through the muck any sort of credence at all. If they claim they didn't have a part in something I am looking at what that something is right away, and invariably there are always alternative viewpoints that potentially damn them. That couldn't possibly be the case, unless there was actually something to it.