An ultomato of marriage

[Nuzzolese]

My friend is leaving her boyfriend of 5 years because he refuses to marry her.

They've been living together for almost 4 years and now she wants out because "the relationship isn't going anywhere" and he's not leaving her much of a choice, so she says. She doesn't want to be someone's girlfriend forever, she wants to be married.

I really don't understand her point of view. I mean I understand wanting to marry someone, but I don't understand why she's leaving him because he won't marry her. It would make sense if she just didn't love him or want to be with him anymore, but she's saying she wants to marry him so obviously she's asking for all or nothing.

I'm such an outsider to their relationship, I'm sure there's more to it than this. But from what she's told me, he wants to be with her forever, he's just anti-marriage. They've both been married before and she has one child from her former marriage.

She warned me not to wait too long to get married to a boyfriend, because I could end up living with him and never getting married.

What do you think of this? What's so wrong with living together and being together and not being married?

[cookiepuss]

She wants a diamond because diamonds are forever. they last longer than most marriages.

[Bob]

is she religious?

[Nuzzolese]

This is really emotionally hard for her and I'm just trying to be supportive because it's clear that she's already made up her mind. But inside I'm thinking I see his side, except that he is being extremely stubborn if he still refuses while she's packing her bags. I mean, he's losing her and he still won't marry her. Of course I would see his point too if he was thinking it would be a bad idea to propose marriage just to keep her, because she'll take nothing less.

[Deep_Sea_Rain]

People in relationships pull that shit all the time, on both sides....men and women. It's absolutely asinine. If two people love each other, and are committed to the relationship....that's all you should need. Christ...some people are just cunts.

[Nuzzolese]

is she religious?

Ehh, she pretends to be sometimes. I think she just doesn't want to keep saying "my boyfriend" She just turned 30 and it was a big deal so I think she wants to be able to say "my husband" I mean, maybe she thinks it would be all the easier for him to ditch her or cheat on her but married men do that all the time. It's not like he has freedom now anyway, they bought a house together and they share car payments and bills. He's giving her 2000 dollars so she can pay the bank for a house she bought and then immediately sold because the monthly payments were too high, and so she can buy ANOTHER house for just her and her son.

[Bob]

This is really emotionally hard for her and I'm just trying to be supportive because it's clear that she's already made up her mind. But inside I'm thinking I see his side, except that he is being extremely stubborn if he still refuses while she's packing her bags. I mean, he's losing her and he still won't marry her. Of course I would see his point too if he was thinking it would be a bad idea to propose marriage just to keep her, because she'll take nothing less.

it sounds kind of ironic. like, they love each other (apparently) and plan to spend their lives together, save for the marriage issue. if he doesn't marry her, he loses her, and if he does marry her, he's just being threatened into it and they'll always have that between them, which i think would make it an awkward marriage, to say the least.

i forget why that's ironic but it sucks, you gotta give me that

can't she just SAY "my husband" and not actually be officially married? they could just pretend to be, like that episode of seinfeld

[Nuzzolese]

People in relationships pull that shit all the time, on both sides....men and women. It's absolutely asinine. If two people love each other, and are committed to the relationship....that's all you should need. Christ...some people are just cunts.

I know! I'm thinking their relationship may not be all that stable, and if it's time to end it then it's time to end it, but she keeps saying he has to marry her or she's leaving and she keeps saying he wants to have his cake and eat it too....and I'm too nice of a friend to question or challenge her because she seems pretty proud of this decision.

[Nuzzolese]

it sounds kind of ironic. like, they love each other (apparently) and plan to spend their lives together, save for the marriage issue. if he doesn't marry her, he loses her, and if he does marry her, he's just being threatened into it and they'll always have that between them, which i think would make it an awkward marriage, to say the least.

i forget why that's ironic but it sucks, you gotta give me that

can't she just SAY "my husband" and not actually be officially married? they could just pretend to be, like that episode of seinfeld

I don't think she likes Seinfeld.

[na§tee]

it's sort of harsh that she's finishing with him purely because he won't get married. that speaks volumes about the quality of their relationship and puts massive pressure on him.

me, i'm not too sure about marriage. i'm more up for the living with people thang. i'm just realistic about the possibility of meeting someone better (this is unfair - maybe when i am "in love" fo' realz i won't think about meeting someone better - not that i actively do, but i'm just saying i don't believe in soul mates). i don't want the expense and trauma and heartbreak of getting divorced.

saying that, getting married has some money saving plus points, i guess. right now i'm watching a documentary about 9/11 widows and how some partners didn't get the cash because they weren't married. or lesbians. not cool.

the only reason i would get married would be for the big party all for MEMEME!
and the ceilidh. y'all invited.

:cool:

[Nuzzolese]

She told me her first husband demanded their marriage on the grounds that he wasn't going to have another kid and not be married. Because he'd had a kid with his old girlfriend and this time he wanted to do things right, or something. Before my friend got pregnant, she was about to leave him, but then his dad shot himself and she couldn't leave him right after such a thing happening, so she stayed, got knocked up accidentally, and he demanded they get married. Then they got divorced and I guess now she wants to marry this one.

[Nuzzolese]

She has a great life story, it's so sad and funny and adventurous. And it goes back a few generations too. For example, her mom's name is Bambi because her grandmother was only 13 when she had her and her drunk father thought it was cute.

She has an out of work alcoholic uncle who lives with his parents, she has a gay brother, a deaf sister, an ex husband, a cousin who was tragically killed in a trailer by her excon exboyfriend (murder witnessed by their kids!), true hillbilly relatives...

She has so much! I'm jealous because my family is a snorefest. I've got one highly functional bipolar/OCD cousin, an aunt who works for Def Jam, and a religious nut cat lady for a great aunt and that's IT.

Oh I forgot she also had a highschool stalker who killed himself.

And it's all true, the girl doesn't brag. This all came out in a time of 3 years of knowing her. And this is the first time I've added it all up and realized how awesome her life is.

[Bob]

the most interesting thing about my family is that my great grandfather was a hitler youth....or a hitler adult, i'm not sure how old he would have been. i would KILL for a crazy cat lady aunt

[Nuzzolese]

Did he live in Germany? Was he a legitimate hitler youth or just a fan?

No one ever goes to visit crazy old aunt Evelyn. But if you make the mistake of sending her a graduation announcement you'll get a 25 page letter in a package with bibles and prayer cards and old family photos. It's all very interesting in a way, but it's overwhelming.

[Bob]

i think he was a real german...not too far back in my lineage, there are off-the-boat germans, i think he was one of them. dunno why he left if he liked hitler so much but i guess i can't complain, i seem to have been born

[cookiepuss]

well as abused as the sanction of marriage seems to be today it still holds status in our society. Introducing your boyfriend or girlfriend even if you've been together 7 years is not taken quite as seriously in most peoples mind as introducing your husband or wife is.

I think the symbolism of marriage means alot to this woman. it's important for her to make a public statement (i.e. wedding ceremony) to her family, friends or even strangers that this person is one of the most important people in her life.

if marriage didn't hold any importance to people why is the gay community fighting for the right to marry? because it's suppose to MEAN something. it's not suppose to be something you just easily walk away from.

personally I could give two shits about being legally married, but if my boyfriend I are going to be together long term I think we should do something to symbolize our commitment, like exchange rings or something. It brings some thing physical to the abstract concept of our committment.

[Echewta]

i dont think the hitler youth really had a choice.

[yooooo]

true, but many of them were truly hitler "fans"

[Drederick Tatum]

why doesn't she just refer to him as her "partner". my girlfriend and I have been together for about 6 years and in unfamiliar or official circles, we are each other's "partner"...our relationship is legally recognised by the state as being a de-facto marriage/union/partnership...she could get half my stuff! bitch will probably take half my CD's out of spite.

[Echewta]

You'd probably end up having a wedding in a teepee. That would really be something.

[Drederick Tatum]

Little Known Fact:

I am not American Indian.

[abcdefz]

Obviously, they have different values when it comes to this.

It's interesting that there's judgmentalism in this thread about stubbornly insisting on being married but not so much about stubbornly insisting on notbeing married.

I wouldn't expect either to cave in; I'd just say it's kind of sad that this issue didn't come to the fore a long time ago before each had their hearts so deeply invested.

I wonder if each peron was up front about their feelings when it all started getting serious? Because, personally, if I were going to insist on getting married one day, there's no way in Hades that I'd cohabitate before the deal was sealed.

[cookiepuss]

why doesn't she just refer to him as her "partner". my girlfriend and I have been together for about 6 years and in unfamiliar or official circles, we are each other's "partner"...our relationship is legally recognised by the state as being a de-facto marriage/union/partnership...she could get half my stuff! bitch will probably take half my CD's out of spite.


Because "partner" is most often used by gay couples because in most states they can't legally marry. now if your "partner is right there with youin the introduction a person can see the partners gender and what not. but if you reffer to your partner and your partner isn't there and/or has a uni-sex name, some people may assume you are gay.

personally I wouldn't care if someone thought I was gay..but I can see how some people like thier roles clearly defined and wouldn't be happy with any term that's not husband or wife.

[Documad]

This has happened with a lot of my friends. I think it's pretty common as women hit their mid 30s. Most of the time, it seems that the guy was up front about not wanting to get married, or not wanting to have kids, or both. But the woman either thought that's what she wanted and changed her mind, or more often, she thought he would change his mind.

It's uncomfortable saying anything here, but I think it would be worse if he gave in. I went to a wedding like that recently. I love that friend so much but it wouldn't have been my choice.

On the other hand, if she wants to be married and he isn't ever going to want to, then she should leave immediately. Are kids the issue? Does she want him to be a stepdad? Does she want more of them?

[venusvenus123]

It's interesting that there's judgmentalism in this thread about stubbornly insisting on being married but not so much about stubbornly insisting on notbeing married.

I wouldn't expect either to cave in; I'd just say it's kind of sad that this issue didn't come to the fore a long time ago before each had their hearts so deeply invested.

i totally agree with this. why judge just one half of the couple? my friend is currently in a situation where her partner has changed his mind and decided he doesn't want to get married after all... i mean, he's decided that he suddenly doesn't "believe" in marriage. that kind of sucks for her.

i heard a really interesting programme on the radio in the past year which was all about how the law affects couples who live together without getting married. the upshot was that you are definitely way better off being married, from both partner's points of view.

it's all fine, until something goes wrong. then, quite frankly, you're fucked -- especially if kids are involved. this is in the UK; obviously it may be different elsewhere.

before i got married i always referred to my husband as my partner. i had boyfriends at school -- i felt it was quite important to differentiate verbally.

[paul jones]

My friend is leaving her boyfriend of 5 years because he refuses to marry her.

They've been living together for almost 4 years and now she wants out because "the relationship isn't going anywhere" and he's not leaving her much of a choice, so she says. She doesn't want to be someone's girlfriend forever, she wants to be married.

I really don't understand her point of view. I mean I understand wanting to marry someone, but I don't understand why she's leaving him because he won't marry her. It would make sense if she just didn't love him or want to be with him anymore, but she's saying she wants to marry him so obviously she's asking for all or nothing.

I'm such an outsider to their relationship, I'm sure there's more to it than this. But from what she's told me, he wants to be with her forever, he's just anti-marriage. They've both been married before and she has one child from her former marriage.

She warned me not to wait too long to get married to a boyfriend, because I could end up living with him and never getting married.

What do you think of this? What's so wrong with living together and being together and not being married?

I think they should both have a romantic meal at Burger King and see who can eat the most onion rings in an hour

People should have fun and not worry about a piece of paper or a ring on their fingers.

Onion ring eating contests= FUN!

couples should have fun more,like riding on BMX's in the rain or Blindfold Table Tennis or maybe even going to the lake and dancing for swans. Maybe swans love people dancing,who knows..

I saw a couple arguing at the beureu de change in the post office the other day over money..........SAD!

Life is too short for being moody and argumentetive.

people gotta relaise this!(y)

[vickista]

Life is too short for being moody and argumentetive.

people gotta relaise this!(y)


yeah, wtf does a ring prove anyway?

[paul jones]

yeah, wtf does a ring prove anyway?

I know. Nobody owns nobody,well,that is how it should be but human beings are a long way off from being civilised creatures,well...all the stupid ones anyway(y)

[vickista]

I know. Nobody owns nobody,well,that is how it should be but human beings are a long way off from being civilised creatures,well...all the stupid ones anyway(y)

exactly,and the ring won't it improve their relationship, nor will it give her some kind of authority or level of respect among her peers so why is it such a big issue?

[Nivvie]

yeah, wtf does a ring prove anyway?


It's not the ring it's the vows. Although, these days they don't mean much either.

I wanted to be married for a host of reasons, but I hated the idea of a wedding, so we had immediate family only and the whole lasted no more than 10 mins, and was super cheap. A big part of it to me is the public commitment and security of family, of the parents and kids all having the same last name.

If my husband hadn't wanted to marry me, I'd have to say, I'd have been upset. Although, I was *eek* 16 when I got engaged, so prone to dramatics. So luckily he asked me before things got embarrassing, as although nowadays I think I'd have understood if he didn't believe in marriage.

What bites me most is folk spend an average of £20,000 on weddings up here, all kinds of daft crap like present showings, blackenings, and other stuff that goes on for weeks. A few years back you could buy a house here for that!

[vickista]

It's not the ring it's the vows. Although, these days they don't mean much either.

I wanted to be married for a host of reasons, but I hated the idea of a wedding, so we had immediate family only and the whole lasted no more than 10 mins, and was super cheap. A big part of it to me is the public commitment and security of family, of the parents and kids all having the same last name.

If my husband hadn't wanted to marry me, I'd have to say, I'd have been upset. Although, I was *eek* 16 when I got engaged, so prone to dramatics. So luckily he asked me before things got embarrassing, as although nowadays I think I'd have understood if he didn't believe in marriage.

What bites me most is folk spend an average of £20,000 on weddings up here, all kinds of daft crap like present showings, blackenings, and other stuff that goes on for weeks. A few years back you could buy a house here for that!

yeah i hate that too, really gets my goat.:D

[Nivvie]

My sis-in-law spent £34,000 on a wedding, big castle, whole shebang.
That's about $64,000.
It lasted four years.

[vickista]

My sis-in-law spent £34,000 on a wedding, big castle, whole shebang.
That's about $64,000.
It lasted four years.


FUCK! :eek: that's insane.

[Nuzzolese]

If the relationship "isn't going anywhere" if you're not getting married, then does that mean getting married is the final destination? For a divorced woman, she sure has a determined view that marriage is the ultimate point of a relationship.

I was thinking, her parents and grandparents were both married when they were young teenagers, and they stayed together and had children and everything. I wonder if her family judges her for her current situation.

Paul Jones that was some great advice. I've tried that, sort of, when I wasn't happy with my last bf I ate a lot of pancakes. I would make them really quickly any time of the day. Sometimes we didn't even have all the ingredients but I realized you mostly just need flour, water, and syrup. Sometimes I didn't even fry them I just microwaved them, sometimes I just made a soupy paste and if you added enough syrup it was good eating when the guy's out drinking late.

[marsdaddy]

the most interesting thing about my family is that my great grandfather was a hitler youth....
i would KILL for a crazy cat lady auntSome things ARE hereditary!

Sounds like this person WANTS to be married for some wrong reasons. Like because she's 30. Or because she wants to bully her significant other. Or some other thing which relates to how she feels, but not the relationship. Or maybe she needs more than LOVE?

Here in Northern California, people who ARE married, DON'T breastfeed, and who DISCIPLINE in public are the outcasts.

[chrisd]

what's the recipe?

[chrisd]

you know what's also good: an ulpotato of divorce

[Nuzzolese]

Ultimacchiatos on the other hand, are delicious.

I'm reaching.

[Waus]

It seems to me that a lot of people now use cohabitation as a sort of substitute for marriage, only without the same commitment. Both people want to "be together forever" and "see eachother every day!" but they want to be able to bail if things get a little rough. If this guy is as committed as he should be to this girl - I don't see why he'd have a problem with getting married.

He doesn't want the label? Has had bad experiences? That's no excuse for not giving the one your with the respect and support they deserve.

[Nuzzolese]

It seems to me that a lot of people now use cohabitation as a sort of substitute for marriage, only without the same commitment. Both people want to "be together forever" and "see eachother every day!" but they want to be able to bail if things get a little rough. If this guy is as committed as he should be to this girl - I don't see why he'd have a problem with getting married.

He doesn't want the label? Has had bad experiences? That's no excuse for not giving the one your with the respect and support they deserve.

That is a very good point.

[befsquire]

i love being married. i don't know why, exactly, but i do. i know being married makes it into a family for me, whereas just living together wouldn't make me feel that way. regardless, had bobby never wanted to be married, and he could have worked and lived here without us being married, then i would have lived with him and would have been very happy with that. but a small part of me probably would have thought "well, what's wrong with me that he wouldn't want me as a wife?" and maybe over time i would have found out that i wasn't ok with it after all. i really can't say.

maybe there's something about taking that final step that just appeals to your friend and makes her feel that the relationship is truly valued by him.

i don't see anything wrong with what she's doing. if this is something she truly needs in her life, and he isn't willing to provide it, why should she stay? to waste the rest of her life not getting what she needs from love? to her, he could be viewed as withholding something that he was more than willing to give in another relationship, so therefore she just isn't that special to him after all.

it really isn't fair for any of us to project our views onto her situation and say what's right or wrong for her. as her friend, you don't have to understand. you just need to be the same friend to her that you always have been.

[abcdefz]

My sis-in-law spent £34,000 on a wedding, big castle, whole shebang.
That's about $64,000.
It lasted four years.



That is One. Long. Wedding. :eek:

[iceygirl]

i love being married too. we lived together for awhile, and there is some point that the terms boyfriend and girlfriend just don't fit anymore. there does come a time when you marry someone in your heart, but i do feel there is a difference after you actually say your vows and make it legal. its a good difference, and it suprised me. its so interesting how things develop even after a decade together.

think of buying a expensive pair of pants. if you are going to make the investment in the pants, you better goddamned be 100% happy with them - fit, length, material, everything. if your friend isnt happy with the way the future looks in this relationship, its not worth her time or energy to invest anymore into it. life is too short to be dissatisfied about something you have the power to change.

life is also too short to be so freaking judgemental (lb)

[ms.peachy]

I love it when people who aren't married insist that marriage isn't meaningful. It's like when white people try to explain why affirmative action isn't worthwhile.

[Bob]

I love it when people who aren't married insist that marriage isn't meaningful. It's like when white people try to explain why affirmative action isn't worthwhile.

well why would anyone who IS married take that stance? of course they think it's meaningful, otherwise they wouldn't be married. who else is gonna have that opinion? i don't like that simile to be honest with you

[skra75]

Marriage Rocks!(y)

[TAL]

Marriage Rocks!(y)
2 carat or more.

[Nuzzolese]

Life is too short NOT to be judgemental, I mean we have to make up our minds already and have some strong opinions even if they're stupid ones, we don't have time to be wishy washy. LIFE IS TOO SHORT!
I hate hearing that, you could use that as an excuse to shove your values around but it still means nothing.

[abcdefz]

I think people get "judgemental" and "discerning" confused sometimes.

I also can't stand relativism. To use a cliché: you've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

[Nuzzolese]

Come to think of it, she's not really a friend. She's more like an aquaintance who happens to tell me all about her life.

[JimmyTheScumbag]

Nothing would make me want to marry a girl less than a girl that would try to force me to marry her.

[abcdefz]

^
...shouldn't be a problem, Jimmy. :D

[wrongwayandugg]

What do you think of this? What's so wrong with living together and being together and not being married?

I am just fine with loving someone anymore. I do not need a contract to make my intimate relationship real or some stupid shit like that. My ex boyfriend was all about marriage. Even though the relationship didn't work out for other reasons, we were bound to come to that marriage crossroad. Ladies, it is not like our fathers are marrying us off as property anymore. Contemporary societies, especially American, have this whole marriage thing misconstrued like religion.

[cosmo105]

being judgemental is a blessing and a curse. i can't help it that i'm so gosh-darn perceptive.

sort of getting off the topic, but at a wedding a couple years back i happened to grab the bouquet. not that i really cared about it, or even wanted to think about getting married - i guess i was just competitive. anyway, in the photo you see me fucking LEAPING for it and i totally snatch it out of the air. and right below me is this woman looking devastated. apparently she was almost 30, and had been talking about catching the bouquet for weeks...she and her boyfriend were there, but he had yet to pop the question, and she was desperate to get married for some reason. after finding that out, i felt pretty awful and almost wanted to give it to her. but screw that, it ain't my fault i got better hops.

[ampm]

One of the reasons we fled country was because of arranged marriages.

[malachite]

It's a calculated out. She broke up him, and now he is not the jerk wanted to end a long term relationship because he wants to have sex with other people. Instead, she is the unreasonable bitch who tired to pressure him into marrying her.

If it's not there, you can't force it.

Woah, I think your proofreading skills leaked when you were dishing out all that love in your thread.

[iceygirl]

Life is too short NOT to be judgemental, I mean we have to make up our minds already and have some strong opinions even if they're stupid ones, we don't have time to be wishy washy. LIFE IS TOO SHORT!
I hate hearing that, you could use that as an excuse to shove your values around but it still means nothing.

big difference between being opinionated and judgemental chickie mcchickenpants

[befsquire]

Life is too short NOT to be judgemental, I mean we have to make up our minds already and have some strong opinions even if they're stupid ones, we don't have time to be wishy washy. LIFE IS TOO SHORT!
I hate hearing that, you could use that as an excuse to shove your values around but it still means nothing.
maybe it will mean something to you one day when you watch your mother die and you realize that she's never going to see her grandchildren grow up, take the vacation she always wanted, and watch her children graduate from various schools. and then you realize, hey, i'm 30 and i feel like a lot of shit happened only yesterday, and she's only 57 and now she's dead FOREVER, and forever is a long fucking time in comparison to a short 58 years.

it may be trite to you, but it means something to a lot of people.

r.i.p. B.G.F. 11/16/42 - 9/16/00

[Nuzzolese]

What the hell does that have to do with me? How condescending.

[befsquire]

What the hell does that have to do with me? How condescending.
i interpreted your post as you being condescending by saying that the phrase life is too short doesn't mean anything. it means something to a lot of people. and you know that i, along with other people, post that on here often enough.

it's funny that you of all people are calling me condescending.

[Documad]

Beth, I am just floored seeing you post your mom's birthdate. I have been moved by your posts about her and her illness, but I never realized she was so young. I hope that the anniversary of her death isn't too painful anymore.

My sister in law died recently. She was in her mid 50s. She had been ill for a long time, and so her death was expected, but I'm taking it harder than I imagined. What gets to me is that she is going to miss so much. She has a beautiful two year old grandson. She would have been the coolest old lady and it's so fucking unfair.

One of my friends lost her husband to cancer when he was in his 30s and their child was young. I've been so lucky to be her friend because I have seen how that loss has impacted the choices she makes. She has risked embarrassment when I would not have because life is too short to be worried about what others think, etc. I know that it sounds stupid to others but I completely understand and I try to embrace her philosophy.

[cosmo105]

One of my friends lost her husband to cancer when he was in his 30s and their child was young. I've been so lucky to be her friend because I have seen how that loss has impacted the choices she makes. She has risked embarrassment when I would not have because life is too short to be worried about what others think, etc. I know that it sounds stupid to others but I completely understand and I try to embrace her philosophy.
dealing with death really does that to you. puts everything in perspective, every day.

[ms.peachy]

dealing with death really does that to you. puts everything in perspective, every day.
yyyyyep.

[Nivvie]

It's nice when death does that, but when it's everywhere all the time, people get complacent. I don't just mean in countries where life is cheap, but it amazes me how many people I work with in the funeral service that are now fully immune to the lessons of death. It's real shame. Even when they loose loved ones, they are unaware of the preciousness of their own lives.