Common Sense - R.I.P.

[mp-seventythree]

This month we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm, life isn't always fair, and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended
from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job they themselves failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer Panadol, sun lotion or a sticky plaster to a student - but could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses, and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar can sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason.
He is survived by three stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else is to Blame, and I'm A Victim.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realised he was gone.
If you still remember him, mourn him. If not, join the majority and do nothing.

[Helvete]

He always was a really nice rapper. R.I.P

[tracky]

Word. Common Sense threw down some dope rhymes.

[Bob]

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.


disgustingly understated. if i recall correctly, she got third degree burns and had to get skin grafts. accidents happen, but if spilling coffee in your lap sends you to the hospital, someone's done something wrong

[mp-seventythree]

If you spill coffee in your own lap, YOU cannot blame the person who made or sold you the coffee (unless there was an obvious fault with the cup).

Anyway, those weren't my words, I found them on another site.

[tracky]

how are you meant to even drink a cup of coffee that gives you third degree burns? I want to drink it now, not in 20 minutes time.

[Bob]

If you spill coffee in your own lap, YOU cannot blame the person who made or sold you the coffee (unless there was an obvious fault with the cup).

Anyway, those weren't my words, I found them on another site.

what if there's a fault with the coffee?

[abcdefz]

I agree about the death of common sense stuff.

But Bob's right about taking issue with the woman-who-spilled-coffee thing.

The issue wasn't that she spilled the coffee: the issue was that that particular restaurant had been repeatedly cited for serving SCALDING hot coffee -- i.e., a physically dangerous product -- and repeatedly ignored government guidelines about such things. 700 TIMES.

The old woman required skin grafting after the incident; she sued for hospital costs, and McDonalds refused to pay $20k for that. At that point, her attorney advised her to press the matter.

From Know Consumers Attorneys of California:

the Facts: The McDonalds Coffee Case

There is a lot of hype about the McDonalds scalding coffee case. No one is in favor of frivolous cases of outlandish results; however, it is important to understand some points that were not reported in most of the stories about the case. McDonalds coffee was not only hot, it was scalding - capable of almost instantaneous destruction of skin, flesh and muscle. Here is the whole story.

Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, New Mexico, was in the passenger seat of her grandson's car when she was severely burned by McDonalds coffee in February 1992. Liebeck, 79 at the time, ordered coffee that was served in a Styrofoam cup at the drive-through window of a local McDonalds.

After receiving the order, the grandson pulled his car forward and stopped momentarily so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. (Critics of civil justice, who have pounced on this case, often charge that Liebeck was driving the car or that the vehicle was in motion when she spilled the coffee; neither is true.) Liebeck placed the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from the cup. As she removed the lid, the entire contents of the cup spilled into her lap.

The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next to her skin. A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. Liebeck, who also underwent debridement treatments, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonalds refused.

During discovery, McDonalds produced documents showing more than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992. Some claims involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Liebecks. This history documented McDonalds' knowledge about the extent and nature of this hazard.

McDonalds also said during discovery that, based on a consultant's advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees Fahrenheit to maintain optimum taste. He admitted that he had not evaluated the safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.

Further, McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above, and that McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat. The quality assurance manager admitted that burns would occur, but testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing the "holding temperature" of its coffee.

Plaintiff's expert, a scholar in thermodynamics as applied to human skin burns, testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds. Other testimony showed that as the temperature decreases toward 155 degrees, the extent of the burn relative to that temperature decreases exponentially. Thus, if Liebecks spill had involved coffee at 155 degrees, the liquid would have cooled and given her time to avoid a serious burn.

McDonalds asserted that customers buy coffee on their way to work or home, intending to consume it there. However, the company's own research showed that customers intend to consume the coffee immediately while driving.

McDonalds also argued that consumers know coffee is hot and that its customers want it that way. The company admitted its customers were unaware that they could suffer third-degree burns from the coffee and that a statement on the side of the cup was not a "warning" but a "reminder" since the location of the writing would not warn customers of the hazard.

The jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 in compensatory damages. This amount was reduced to $160,000 because the jury found Liebeck 20 percent at fault in the spill. The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, which equals about two days of McDonalds coffee sales.

Post-verdict investigation found that the temperature of coffee at the local Albuquerque McDonalds had dropped to 158 degrees Fahrenheit.

The trial court subsequently reduced the punitive award to $480,000 -- or three times compensatory damages -- even though the judge called McDonalds' conduct reckless, callous and willful.

No one will ever know the final ending to this case.

The parties eventually entered into a secret settlement which has never been revealed to the public, despite the fact that this was a public case, litigated in public and subjected to extensive media reporting. Such secret settlements, after public trials, should not be condoned. Many courts in California have adopted policies against enforcement of secret settlements, which is a positive development for consumers and the public.

[mp-seventythree]

If I were buying a hot drink I would expect it to be supplied at a temperature close to boiling. That's how hot drinks are usually served.

Once you buy the hot drink, YOU ARE THEN RESPONSIBLE FOR IT, end of story.

[mp-seventythree]

I just read the text in A-Z's post, and it mentions that she placed a styrofoam cup between her knees so she could add cream and sugar. Eveyone knows how flexible styrofoam cups are, so one would reasonably expect the cup to flex and possibly spill its contents if placed between the knees.

[abcdefz]

If I were buying a hot drink I would expect it to be supplied at a temperature close to boiling. That's how hot drinks are usually served.

Once you buy the hot drink, YOU ARE THEN RESPONSIBLE FOR IT, end of story.



...that's the same sort of logic that says if you ate fish which wasn't properly stored and cooked and you subsequently got food poisoning -- too bad; once you order the food, you're responsible.

The point is that a restaurant has an obligation to serve food in an unharmful and legal manner -- an egregious offense after repeatedly flaunting health codes.

Yeah -- if the customer spills red wine down the front of a white shirt -- tough luck, bub. That's an entirely different area of responsibility.

I don't even agree with the idea of plastic bag manufacturers being sued because some idiot allowed their baby to crawl inside and die; I also can't stand cigarette companies being sued by lung cancer patients because the fucking cigarettes worked. But once the company ignores the law and stubbornly refuses to remove, say, arsenic or gunpowder from the product -- yeah; there's liability to be spread around.

[abcdefz]

I just read the text in A-Z's post, and it mentions that she placed a styrofoam cup between her knees so she could add cream and sugar. Eveyone knows how flexible styrofoam cups are, so one would reasonably expect the cup to flex and possibly spill its contents if placed between the knees.


True enough. And if the woman had suffered from first or even second degree burns because of a restaurant serving food at a lawful temperature in a lawful container, I'd say the woman was shit out of luck.

But that's not what happened. She had third degree burns.

From a poorly-spell-checked website:


FIRST DEGREE: This is a minor burn to the Epidermis layer of the skin. It is usually superficial. The apperarence is red and blances of white when pressed on. There are no blisters. It usually takes 3-6 days to heal. Hospitalization is usually only necessary if the patient has a fever, dehydration (not enough body fluids) or has uncontrollable pain.

2nd Degree Burn

SECOND DEGREE: This is a burn that causes damage to the Epidermis layer of the skin and the Dermis. All types of second degree burns are listed as moderate burns.

Deep Thickness Burn

Partial Thickness Burns are painful and blisters. The color is usually red and moist below. It usually takes 3 weeks to heal. The final outcome is the change in skin color and pigmentation.

DEEP THICKNESS BURNS are ivory or pearly white. They usually take more than 3 weeks to heal. Skin grafting is usually recommended.

3rd Degree Burn

THIRD DEGREE: This is a critical burn that causes a destruction of all the Epidermis and Dermis. It goes to the root of the hair. A third degree burn is called a Full Thickness Burn. It is usually dry darkbrown or has a leathery appearence. Skin grafting is recommended.

4th Degree Burn

FOURTH DEGREE: The tissue beneath the skin is burned/destroyed. That includes the muscles, tendons, ligaments and bones. Skin grafting is usually needed to close up the areas.

[steve-onpoint]

I Used To Love H.E.R. :(

[abcdefz]

...but you had to kill her?

See, common sense would tell you etc. etc.

[skra75]

The original content of this post smacks of right-wing bullshit. not sure why. I'm a pretty sensible guy.

Myabe it's bc I've read this before and the original version of it had a bunch of anti-abortion and prayer in school horseshit in it. Looks like it got editied out.

[Bob]

I just read the text in A-Z's post, and it mentions that she placed a styrofoam cup between her knees so she could add cream and sugar. Eveyone knows how flexible styrofoam cups are, so one would reasonably expect the cup to flex and possibly spill its contents if placed between the knees.

yeah, one could reasonably expect that to happen. including the people who made/sold the drink. why, then, would they serve it at an unusual and unreasonably hot and dangerous temperature?

when you spill coffee on yourself, what do you reasonably expect to happen? at worst, maybe you have to go to CVS and buy some ointment or something. whoops, you fucked up, but these things happen, now you know better. that's a reasonable outcome. this wasn't, and it was the negligence of the mcdonald's that resulted in the outcome. and they'd been warned about it. that's definitely cause for a lawsuit. i don't see how it's frivilous to at least ask for medical expenses ($20,000 worth apparently, who's more able to pay that? the old lady or mcdonald's?).

[abcdefz]

^

"Mah boy'z wicked smaht..."

[skra75]

of course, he's a lawyer:rolleyes:

[abcdefz]

Not yet. First he has to pass through the swamp tree on Dagobah and face his father or some shit.

[Bob]

it's funny, i actually made my first two replies to this thread while i was in my torts class.

i'm not saying that ridiculous lawsuits aren't a problem, there are loads. suing a guy because he accidentally ran over your hand while you were stealing his hubcaps is ridiculous. suing a guy because he broke your nose when he caught you breaking into his house, that's ridiculous. but i get pissed off when people get all "OMG AMERICA IS SO SUE HAPPY" with the coffee lawsuit because it's a legitimate cause for action.

i'll admit that the amount she was awarded was excessive, but the suit itself is completely acceptable, i think.

[Drederick Tatum]

man, common sense is just the ideology of the dominant class being imposed upon opressed groups in order to maintain hegemony, man.

[skra75]

the chinaman is not the issue here, dude

[pip07]

you fuckin dick. I thought Common was dead because you capitalized everything

[Kid Presentable]

Pip has the best avatar.

[hardnox71]

I remember reading a story once (like, ten-twelve years ago) about a guy who sued Sony after getting hit by a car while listening to his Sony walkman. He couldn't hear the car honking at him because he had the volume up too high. His argument was that it was Sony's fault because if they didn't produce walkmans with the volume levels set so high then it would have been impossible for him to turn it all the way up and, therefore, he would have heard the car.

:rolleyes:

I never forgot this story on account of the fact that is just about the most retarded thing I ever heard.

[abcdefz]

I just had a case dismissed, which really pisses me off.

I was suing Adam, Eve, a serpent and a tree. (Adam was an accessory, but still!)

[Nuzzolese]

These aren't issues of Common Sense, they're issues of fairness and rights and freedoms - all up for debate, not confined by dogmatic notions of empirical truths. You could have an army of people behind you but it doesn't make you right. Similarly you could have an army of people against you but it doesn't make you wrong.

[abcdefz]

These aren't issues of Common Sense, they're issues of fairness and rights and freedoms - all up for debate, not confined by dogmatic notions of empirical truths.



^
Not common sense


You could have an army of people behind you but it doesn't make you right. Similarly you could have an army of people against you but it doesn't make you wrong.


^
Is commons sense

[Nuzzolese]

Isn't it acrobatic the way I can arc from one to the other so quickly?

[abcdefz]

Isn't it acrobatic the way I can arc from one to the other so quickly?



...see, that just shows you're 100% human. :D

God bless! (y)

[Nivvie]

I was really interested in the whole coffee thing as people seem to forget that the coffee in question is not boiling point, it's way above. We know when we boil a kettle at home what that is going to be like, but this is a superheated liquid, and if it were being handled in an industrial setting, you would get in trouble in this country for not using protective gloves, it would be a breach of health and safety law.

Anyway, here's an old woman's leg, about a third of way down, the one mentioned earlier by abcdefz.


http://www.corpreform.com/indepth_articles/index.html

[abcdefz]

Anyway, here's an old woman's leg, about a third of way down, the one mentioned earlier by abcdefz.


http://www.corpreform.com/indepth_articles/index.html




...just a note: the description says that's what a third degree burn looks like; not that it is the old woman's (or any old woman's) leg.

...just so no one's misled. ;)

[Bob]

I remember reading a story once (like, ten-twelve years ago) about a guy who sued Sony after getting hit by a car while listening to his Sony walkman. He couldn't hear the car honking at him because he had the volume up too high. His argument was that it was Sony's fault because if they didn't produce walkmans with the volume levels set so high then it would have been impossible for him to turn it all the way up and, therefore, he would have heard the car.

:rolleyes:

I never forgot this story on account of the fact that is just about the most retarded thing I ever heard.

see i agree with that, that's retarded. that would be like if the woman bought the coffee, went home, put it in the microwave for an hour, then spilled it on herself and sued mcdonald's (or i guess the microwave manufacturer, i dunno). that IS ridiculous

[abcdefz]

See, that kind of stuff drives me nuts.

Judges should have a huge old "Are you KIDDING me!?" gong behind their bench which would automatically trigger a trap door for the plaintiff and plaintiff's attorney [sic]. Alligators below; that kind of thing.

[Bob]

See, that kind of stuff drives me nuts.

Judges should have a huge old "Are you KIDDING me!?" gong behind their bench which would automatically trigger a trap door for the plaintiff and plaintiff's attorney [sic]. Alligators below; that kind of thing.

even better (and maybe, MAYBE, more practical) would be if attorneys would just stop agreeing to take such ridiculous cases. i guess they hear "sony" or "mcdonald's" and their eyes turn into dollar signs and they reach for the books or something. they kind of make all the other lawyers look bad. and the tort system, at that

[abcdefz]

even better (and maybe, MAYBE, more practical) would be if attorneys would just stop agreeing to take such ridiculous cases. i guess they hear "sony" or "mcdonald's" and their eyes turn into dollar signs and they reach for the books or something. they kind of make all the other lawyers look bad. and the tort system, at that



There are whores in all professions. Let's also make Rod Stewart and Barry Manilow stop the Murdering the Classics I-IV series they've been vomiting up.

[Ally Al]

man, common sense is just the ideology of the dominant class being imposed upon opressed groups in order to maintain hegemony, man.


hippie