US Gov't begin the lies for Iran war

[chromium05]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5346524.stm

And so it begins....

[sam i am]

What are you going to say when it doesn't pan out? Will you issue a mea culpa?

Doubt it, troll.

[chromium05]

?

cunt

[sam i am]

I'm just preemptively showcasing your agenda and fashioning the argument that you can throw all the crap in the world at a wall and that doesn't necessarily mean any of it will stick.

Don't be a doomsayer and then know that you'll never say "I was wrong" when it doesn't occur. Just don't post that crap without analysis.

[chromium05]

MY "agenda"?

What about the agenda behind yet more Bush gov't lies and distorted truths?

"Just don't post that crap without analysis."

I think that the IAEA analysis of the US twist of truth goes a lot further than your constant bleating defense of a bunch of lying fuckers.

[D_Raay]

I think that the IAEA analysis of the US twist of truth goes a lot further than your constant bleating defense of a bunch of lying fuckers.
He does have a point there sam.

[King PSYZ]

definately in the AWWWWWWWWW SHIT SON kinda way.

[sam i am]

MY "agenda"?

What about the agenda behind yet more Bush gov't lies and distorted truths?

"Just don't post that crap without analysis."

I think that the IAEA analysis of the US twist of truth goes a lot further than your constant bleating defense of a bunch of lying fuckers.

Let's see....

In the first paragraph they make it clear it's a "congressional report." How is that connected to the "Bush gov't lies and distorted truths?"

Doesn't Congress have a right to publish it's opinions without those opinions necessarily being endorsed by the Executive branch? Ever heard of the separated branches of government in the US?

Congress does not speak for the US on foreign policy, BTW. The Executive branch does.

Plus, this is old news. Iran's admitted to enriching uranium, against the UN resolutions and has broken IAEA seals in violation of the agreement it signed not to do so. In a rare break from the hubbub of Iraq, the French, Chinese, Russians, Germans, British, and Americans ALL AGREE that Iran is in violation of numerous UN resolutions and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty that Iran is a signatory to.

The whole debate, now, is what is the world (especially the UN Security Council) going to do about it? Are the Russians and Chinese going to block sanctions? As Iran progresses with it's program, is the Security Council going to back it's rhetoric with some muscle? Who's to stop the Iranians from producing enough high-level enriched uranium to produce a nuclear weapon?

Answer those queries and we're debating the proper topic, rather than the fantatstical delusions of "another conspiracy."

[Tone Capone]

Yeah because Iran really needs to be lied about...

[D_Raay]

Let's see....

In the first paragraph they make it clear it's a "congressional report." How is that connected to the "Bush gov't lies and distorted truths?"

Doesn't Congress have a right to publish it's opinions without those opinions necessarily being endorsed by the Executive branch? Ever heard of the separated branches of government in the US?

Congress does not speak for the US on foreign policy, BTW. The Executive branch does.

Plus, this is old news. Iran's admitted to enriching uranium, against the UN resolutions and has broken IAEA seals in violation of the agreement it signed not to do so. In a rare break from the hubbub of Iraq, the French, Chinese, Russians, Germans, British, and Americans ALL AGREE that Iran is in violation of numerous UN resolutions and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty that Iran is a signatory to.

The whole debate, now, is what is the world (especially the UN Security Council) going to do about it? Are the Russians and Chinese going to block sanctions? As Iran progresses with it's program, is the Security Council going to back it's rhetoric with some muscle? Who's to stop the Iranians from producing enough high-level enriched uranium to produce a nuclear weapon?

Answer those queries and we're debating the proper topic, rather than the fantatstical delusions of "another conspiracy."
It says the report was wrong to say that Iran had enriched uranium to weapons-grade level when the IAEA had only found small quantities of enrichment at far lower levels.

A claim also made by the executive branch. Iran insists its nuclear programme is for peaceful purposes.

"deja vu of the pre-Iraq war period". Which turned out how exactly?

[DroppinScience]

What are you going to say when it doesn't pan out? Will you issue a mea culpa?

Doubt it, troll.

Fucktopgirl stated emphatically at the beginning of this year that there would be a war with Iran on our TV screens at exactly March 28th (or somewhere thereabouts). Her conspiracy theory friends said it was leaked to them.

I turned on my TV that day and nothing happened. Thanks for nothing, conspiracy theorists! :mad:

[sam i am]

Fucktopgirl stated emphatically at the beginning of this year that there would be a war with Iran on our TV screens at exactly March 28th (or somewhere thereabouts). Her conspiracy theory friends said it was leaked to them.

I turned on my TV that day and nothing happened. Thanks for nothing, conspiracy theorists! :mad:

This is exactly what I'm talking about...keep it vague...ask a bunch of questions...undermine...innuendo...and the one time they actually set a date, it doesn't even freaking happen!

What the heck, anti-war people? Can't you even deliver on your promises? Heck, if it's war you predict, then it's war we want to see!:mad:

[sam i am]

A claim also made by the executive branch. Iran insists its nuclear programme is for peaceful purposes.

"deja vu of the pre-Iraq war period". Which turned out how exactly?

You're barking up the wrong tree with me on that one, as you well know. I support the Iraq war and what the US is attempting to accomplish there.

So, IF (and that's a VERY big IF) we go into Iran for some reason, I'd certainly support it in the same way.

Heck, they deserve to be punished (used very loosely) for taking our people hostage back in '79!:eek:

[fucktopgirl]

Fucktopgirl stated emphatically at the beginning of this year that there would be a war with Iran on our TV screens at exactly March 28th (or somewhere thereabouts). Her conspiracy theory friends said it was leaked to them.

I turned on my TV that day and nothing happened. Thanks for nothing, conspiracy theorists! :mad:

:D yea... it did not occur sorry that you spend a whole day checking the TV for nothing!


With what happenned in lebannon and irak and afghanistan..i dont think they have many soldiers left and tank and planes to go after Iran but i am sure they will persited.

Hopefully it will never happen!
enought fucking blood has beeing spilled for stupid reason!

[STANKY808]

Heck, they deserve to be punished (used very loosely) for taking our people hostage back in '79!:eek:

And does anyone deserve punishment for the installation of the Shah?

[sam i am]

And does anyone deserve punishment for the installation of the Shah?

Heck, let's punish Russia for allowing Stalin to become dictator.

And Germany, too, for Hitler.

And Italy, for Mussolini.

And Mongolia, for Genghis Khan.

And Romania, for Vlad the Impaler.

And Rome, for Nero.

And......

[sam i am]

:D yea... it did not occur sorry that you spend a whole day checking the TV for nothing!


With what happenned in lebannon and irak and afghanistan..i dont think they have many soldiers left and tank and planes to go after Iran but i am sure they will persited.

Hopefully it will never happen!
enought fucking blood has beeing spilled for stupid reason!

BWHHHHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Way to go, fuckedupgirl! You on the ball as usual.

[fucktopgirl]

[QUOTE=sam i am]You're barking up the wrong tree with me on that one, as you well know. I support the Iraq war and what the US is attempting to accomplish there.


I am just curious to know what they are attempting to accomplish there and you seem to know!

Please lift the dark shadow of ignorance that surface my gray matter on the issue!

Are they trying to take control of the place to have a easy control over the oil in the middle east?
http://www.fpif.org/papers/mideast/gulf.html

NO... they would'nt do that, they must just want to help the people of irak who where persecuted by Saddam and bring peace to them and a renew in their life and economic system . They are there to bring love and harmony,democraty, to make their life less miserable .

Or maybe they are trying to annihilated the terrosrists, kill them all and make this country a better and safe place!More healthy and such!
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/10/1031608245289.html

Or making it safe for kids!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,232986,00.html


Is that it?

[STANKY808]

Heck, let's punish Russia for allowing Stalin to become dictator.

And Germany, too, for Hitler.

And Italy, for Mussolini.

And Mongolia, for Genghis Khan.

And Romania, for Vlad the Impaler.

And Rome, for Nero.

And......

Have at 'er!

But isn't there a difference between the internal machinations of a country versus the imposition of a leader from an "outside" entity?

And glad to see you're one of the last third of the population in the US that still supports the war in Iraq. Now that is "sticktoitidness".

[sam i am]

And glad to see you're one of the last third of the population in the US that still supports the war in Iraq. Now that is "sticktoitidness".

Thanks. We're stubborn.

BTW, I'd love to see the war end. All that needs to occur is for Bin Laden and all the ill folks who are causing havoc in Iraq to give up fighting and turn their profligate energies to building rather than destroying : see......easy and simple solution.

[sam i am]

I am just curious to know what they are attempting to accomplish there and you seem to know!

A peaceful, democratic society that will be an ally in the war on terror.

Please lift the dark shadow of ignorance that surface my gray matter on the issue!

Your "dark shadow," as anyone on these boards know, is incapable of being lifted. Your shroud of uselessness and hysteria is a veil unable to be lifted by anyone. You are so mired in your derangement that you couldn't see the light if you were a foot from the Sun.

Are they trying to take control of the place to have a easy control over the oil in the middle east?

No. Instead the Iraqis are making their own deals with the Iranians and the Turks. Just like a free country is supposed to do : handle it's own trade.

And, just for clarifications's sake, I'll not engage in meaningless rhetoric with you, fuckedupgirl. You are beyond the pale.:D

[fucktopgirl]

A peaceful, democratic society that will be an ally in the war on terror.

"Yawning".. you are well brainwashed ! good job(y)
The war on terror is an illusion...The US are the biggest terrorists around, hummk?


Your "dark shadow," as anyone on these boards know, is incapable of being lifted. Your shroud of uselessness and hysteria is a veil unable to be lifted by anyone. You are so mired in your derangement that you couldn't see the light if you were a foot from the Sun.

I knew you would try to humilated me and mocked me instead of telling me WHY you support the war in irak..little green snot!

way to proove your intellectual capacity !

I am still waiting for an answer!



No. Instead the Iraqis are making their own deals with the Iranians and the Turks. Just like a free country is supposed to do : handle it's own trade.

hahahahaha , yea handle its own while the US are still there and nowhere near to leave .The US implanted/help positioned a governement that will be really friendly with them for business purposes. You are fucking lunatic to still believe that your administration have good intention in their actions.

And, just for clarifications's sake, I'll not engage in meaningless rhetoric with you, fuckedupgirl. You are beyond the pale.:D

YOU are beyond an huge brain hemorrhoids!

[fucktopgirl]

Thanks. We're stubborn.

BTW, I'd love to see the war end. All that needs to occur is for Bin Laden and all the ill folks who are causing havoc in Iraq to give up fighting and turn their profligate energies to building rather than destroying : see......easy and simple solution.

THis statement is well suited for the USA too...

[Drederick Tatum]

All that needs to occur is for Bin Laden and all the ill folks who are causing havoc in Iraq to give up fighting and turn their profligate energies to building rather than destroying : see......easy and simple solution.

well then you should have finished the job in Afghanistan, instead of illegally invading another country under false pretences.

[D_Raay]

"Yawning".. you are well brainwashed ! good job(y)
The war on terror is an illusion...The US are the biggest terrorists around, hummk?




I knew you would try to humilated me and mocked me instead of telling me WHY you support the war in irak..little green snot!

way to proove your intellectual capacity !

I am still waiting for an answer!





hahahahaha , yea handle its own while the US are still there and nowhere near to leave .The US implanted/help positioned a governement that will be really friendly with them for business purposes. You are fucking lunatic to still believe that your administration have good intention in their actions.



YOU are beyond an huge brain hemorrhoids!
I could read your stuff all day Ftopgirl...

[QueenAdrock]

Thanks. We're stubborn.

BTW, I'd love to see the war end. All that needs to occur is for Bin Laden and all the ill folks who are causing havoc in Iraq to give up fighting and turn their profligate energies to building rather than destroying : see......easy and simple solution.


Please, PLEASE tell me you know those are two separate groups, and that "and" was not meant to show a relationship between the two.

[fucktopgirl]

I could read your stuff all day Ftopgirl...


Well, that is a first, usually people bashed me because of my poor english writting!:D

[Tone Capone]

Something NEEDS to change in Iran. That's all there is to it.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.frontpagemag.com/Media/Homepage/killing4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp%3FID%3D16800&h=368&w=500&sz=45&tbnid=30ZXz5iYJTs2KM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=127&hl=de&ei=Bw4ORMPeGcnmaIv-0OgB&sig2=H8LHkjmj5tDJ767JP9u6IQ&start=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dstoning%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26 hl%3Dde%26lr%3Dlang_de%7Clang_en%7Clang_iw%7Clang_ ro%7Clang_ru%7Clang_sk%7Clang_cs%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG :2005-52,GGLG:de%26sa%3DN

[fucktopgirl]

humm yea a pretty extremist way of dealing but then again so what?
to each their fucking own.

A lots of things the usa should changed too !

I tough about posting links about them but there is so many..it would take me years!

[Ali]

This is exactly what I'm talking about...keep it vague...ask a bunch of questions...undermine...innuendo...and the one time they actually set a date, it doesn't even freaking happen!Works for Cheney (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGGL%2CGGGL%3A2006-22%2CGGGL%3Aen&q=cheney+terror+threat&btnG=Search) et al.

[Schmeltz]

Something NEEDS to change in Iran. That's all there is to it.


I agree with your idea in principle, but based on your previous comments I suspect we disagree with the means to the end. You said before that "Iran needs a bomb dropped on it;" you did that in Iraq and created a nightmarish maelstrom of violence and fundamentalism that will plague our planet for decades. Doing that in Iran will make the problem even more insoluble.

What needs to change in Iran is all the factors that produce your links, without changing what is actually good about that society - like its infrastructure and fundamental cultural traditions. Fundamentalism has to give way to secularism, intolerance to acceptance, ignorance to education, misogyny to egalitarianism, paranoia to trust.

But this is impossible under the auspices of the New American Century. More and more I think that America must be the leader of progressive change for the next few generations, simply because there really aren't any other options - and if you guys sink any further you'll take us all down with you. To truly make this century an American project, Americans themselves have to rediscover the values that really make their society great. That's going to take a lot of work.

I know this sounds a lot like more "All the problems in the world are America's fault" bitching, but there's only one superpower and with superpowers come super-responsibilities. Straight up. You've got your cake - what will you do with it?

[Tone Capone]

I agree with your idea in principle, but based on your previous comments I suspect we disagree with the means to the end. You said before that "Iran needs a bomb dropped on it;" you did that in Iraq and created a nightmarish maelstrom of violence and fundamentalism that will plague our planet for decades. Doing that in Iran will make the problem even more insoluble.

What needs to change in Iran is all the factors that produce your links, without changing what is actually good about that society - like its infrastructure and fundamental cultural traditions. Fundamentalism has to give way to secularism, intolerance to acceptance, ignorance to education, misogyny to egalitarianism, paranoia to trust.

But this is impossible under the auspices of the New American Century. More and more I think that America must be the leader of progressive change for the next few generations, simply because there really aren't any other options - and if you guys sink any further you'll take us all down with you. To truly make this century an American project, Americans themselves have to rediscover the values that really make their society great. That's going to take a lot of work.

I know this sounds a lot like more "All the problems in the world are America's fault" bitching, but there's only one superpower and with superpowers come super-responsibilities. Straight up. You've got your cake - what will you do with it?

haha! you say ME like it's my decision. I'm just voicing my opinion on this board like everyone else.

[Tone Capone]

humm yea a pretty extremist way of dealing but then again so what?
to each their fucking own.

A lots of things the usa should changed too !

I tough about posting links about them but there is so many..it would take me years!

Is that a joke? Did that woman look like that was "her way"? That's ignorant. Humans should be free from this type of society by any means possible

[fucktopgirl]

Is that a joke? Did that woman look like that was "her way"? That's ignorant.

I agree that it is not something i want /would enjoy being put trough and i am really happy to have been born in canada. And i feel for that woman and i know their rights are a bit denigrated and thus evolution in their culture should take place at one extent.


Humans should be free from this type of society by any means possible

And by any means possible i "assume" that you are refering to bombing them with DU weapons and then spreading the cancer and destroying everything they got , then implanting a new governement who is "less tyrannic" and have in mind the ressources...euh i mean the welfare of the population that live in thoses country?

I mean what hurt more the human population nowadays:

a islamic justice system that apply their laws in a unconventionnel forms to us ,western inhabitants, numb to the bones by our society full of prejudices and lies and propaganda
or
thoses insane fucks that bombs anything , anytime that things dont turn out their way and when they want to achieved a world supremacy .

Wich kind of society is more harmfull if you look at the big picture?
Wich one do more collateral damage?

i mean before checking in the neighbor yard...we should check in our own one and make changes.

[Tone Capone]

And by any means possible i "assume" that you are refering to bombing them with DU weapons and then spreading the cancer and destroying everything they got , then implanting a new governement who is "less tyrannic" and have in mind the ressources...euh i mean the welfare of the population that live in thoses country?

I mean what hurt more the human population nowadays:

a islamic justice system that apply their laws in a unconventionnel forms to us ,western inhabitants, numb to the bones by our society full of prejudices and lies and propaganda
or
thoses insane fucks that bombs anything , anytime that things dont turn out their way and when they want to achieved a world supremacy .

Wich kind of society is more harmfull if you look at the big picture?
Wich one do more collateral damage?

i mean before checking in the neighbor yard...we should check in our own one and make changes.

By ANY MEANS POSSIBLE. While you are sitting over there typing and trying to rationalize why everything America does is wrong HUMANS are being tortured for simply being HUMANS. There is NO excuse for that. Bottom line.

[fucktopgirl]

By ANY MEANS POSSIBLE. While you are sitting over there typing and trying to rationalize why everything America does is wrong HUMANS are being tortured for simply being HUMANS. There is NO excuse for that. Bottom line.

yes, humans suffered and died while we are typing and discussing about the mess.
Yes, injustice is happening in a LOTS of country right now and a lots of this shit is created by the bigs guys( corporations) who just want to make $$$ and dont really give a shit about the humans conditions at all. And yes, USA , have a huge fucking role in this mess because they are one of the biggest world power. Do you see china invading every fucking country there is? Or the russians or spain or brasil. What name is always intertwined in every fucking war that happen for the last centuries?

There is no excuses for them..... they should be less opportunists, less greedy, less destructives and more HUMANS.

Be real man...your country is swimming in deep shit right now and they always want more of it!

[sam i am]

Do you see china invading every fucking country there is? Or the russians or spain or brasil. What name is always intertwined in every fucking war that happen for the last centuries?

I can't believe I'm doing this.....


Ok. Russia has invaded : Poland, Austria, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Iran, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Mongolia, Finland, Romania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, the Caucasus Region, Tajikistan, Georgia, Kahzakstan (SP?), Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania (just in the past 200 years).

Spain has "invaded" : take your pick of South and Central America plus their support of Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy during WWII plus having a dictator par excellence (Franco) for 30 years AFTER WWII. Also, see their ongoing struggles with the Basques and the Catalonians...

Brazil : wars with Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, plus involvement in both World Wars.

If you are going to cite so-called "neutral" countries and have rhetoric that involves "centuries," at least pick some more apropos countries : like Sweden or Switzerland....

[fucktopgirl]

^okokok


My point is that USA put their noses everywhere they can if their is profits to be made, proclaming that it is to relieve terrorists and bring peace/democracy.
All the countries you mention that invaded and conquered in the past are not arrogant in their military action as the usa is.

[QueenAdrock]

All the countries you mention that invaded and conquered in the past are not arrogant in their military action as the usa is.

Based on what? I'd argue Russia was arrogant as hell. They took advantage of the fact that Germany was starting a world war in order to attack and invade Finland - knowing that by doing so, if Finland fought back, they'd be fighting an "Allied" power and therefore would be forced to be labelled an "Axis" power. Finland was in fact, NOT Axis - Russians just wanted their land, and tried to force themselves on it, so Finland fought back. In the long run, Finland lost 10% of their land to the Russian because of the invasion and war, and after Germany came in to help kick the Russians out, their villages were burned to the ground in a "scorched earth" policy when the Nazis retreated through Norway.

Stalin was a very, VERY arrogant man.

[fucktopgirl]

^ i mean today, in our present time!

WHo want to strike war with all the fucking country in middle east and often on falses pretences.
Who is still invading and bombing like hell..the only one that came in mind is the USA and of course ISRAEL.

[Tone Capone]

yes, humans suffered and died while we are typing and discussing about the mess.
Yes, injustice is happening in a LOTS of country right now and a lots of this shit is created by the bigs guys( corporations) who just want to make $$$ and dont really give a shit about the humans conditions at all. And yes, USA , have a huge fucking role in this mess because they are one of the biggest world power. Do you see china invading every fucking country there is? Or the russians or spain or brasil. What name is always intertwined in every fucking war that happen for the last centuries?

There is no excuses for them..... they should be less opportunists, less greedy, less destructives and more HUMANS.

Be real man...your country is swimming in deep shit right now and they always want more of it!

You're right. I wish especially African countries had more resources that the US wanted so we could drive out extremists there too. But they don't, so the Africans are screwed:( Why doesn't the REST of the world actually do something to help instead of sitting around crying about the US?

[QueenAdrock]

^ i mean today, in our present time!

WHo want to strike war with all the fucking country in middle east and often on falses pretences.
Who is still invading and bombing like hell..the only one that came in mind is the USA and of course ISRAEL.

Who are our allies? Who's over in the middle east, in Afghanistan and Iraq, right along side of us?

You can point fingers at the US all you want, but don't forget there's other people at play here. We're not completely to blame. If others thought it was an unjust war and under false pretenses, they wouldn't be there...but they are. It's easy to say it's JUST the US's fault, but that's not the case.

[Tone Capone]

Who are our allies? Who's over in the middle east, in Afghanistan and Iraq, right along side of us?

You can point fingers at the US all you want, but don't forget there's other people at play here. We're not completely to blame. If others thought it was an unjust war and under false pretenses, they wouldn't be there...but they are. It's easy to say it's JUST the US's fault, but that's not the case.

(!)

[DroppinScience]

I love the exchanges with fucktopgirl:

"Who is intertwined with every war and invasion in the last few centuries??"

"Well, Russia invaded x, y and z. Spain did this, that and the other, etc."

"But they're not arrogant like USA!"

"Actually they were arrogant, if not more so."

"I'm talking about RIGHT NOW!"

Present times? But you just said 2 centuries ago?

If you wanna hate the USA, at least do it right. You're giving a bad name to all the America haterz. :rolleyes:

[fucktopgirl]

Present times? But you just said 2 centuries ago?

If you wanna hate the USA, at least do it right. You're giving a bad name to all the America haterz. :rolleyes:

yep...i kinda fuck it up there.. but i clarify myself after!
But way to go man, good sense of observation!
i am proud of you!

And by arrogant, i meant that thoses country that where arrogant and full blast invaders back then, are not today, but USA is still is. And their war agenda does not diminished but more expanding.

[fucktopgirl]

Who are our allies? Who's over in the middle east, in Afghanistan and Iraq, right along side of us?

I know canada is!:(

Yep, since HArper is our prime minister, shit hit the fan for us, canadians.
WE will lose our title of being a pacifist country and that totally suck.


Now , we are doomed !

[sam i am]

Thanks, DS and Queen, for chiming in....always appreciate your points of view.

BTW, fuckedupgirl, how about the US's allies like : Britain, Spain, Denmark, Poland, France (in Afghanistan), NATO, etc., et al.

As much as you'd like to have everything laid at the dorrstep of the US, there are a plethora of countries, worldwide, that are still engaged in Iraq and (especially) Afghanistan.

The US just happens to be the lead because we still spend enough on our military to project power worldwide, whereas most other countries around the world are precluded from doing so (by spending on social welfare or dealing with their HUGE immigration problems in the countries of Western Europe).

Blame the US for arrogance all you want (mostly because it is hugely entertaining to watch you wipe the mud off your face when you are so dead-on wrong), but we're still making headway in Afghanistan with the help of NATO and Iraq is still better off, in my never to be humble opinion, since we've been there (be "we," of course, I'm referring to the Coalition of the Willing, as opposed to the Coalition of the UNwilling that is the UN!)

[DroppinScience]

I know canada is!:(

Yep, since HArper is our prime minister, shit hit the fan for us, canadians.
WE will lose our title of being a pacifist country and that totally suck.


Now , we are doomed !

Dude, Harper didn't send us into Afghanistan. That was Jean Chretien, a Liberal Prime Minister.

We never were -- or are, or going to be -- a pacifist nation. I don't what what textbook on Canadian history you've been reading.

[sam i am]

Based on what? I'd argue Russia was arrogant as hell. They took advantage of the fact that Germany was starting a world war in order to attack and invade Finland - knowing that by doing so, if Finland fought back, they'd be fighting an "Allied" power and therefore would be forced to be labelled an "Axis" power. Finland was in fact, NOT Axis - Russians just wanted their land, and tried to force themselves on it, so Finland fought back. In the long run, Finland lost 10% of their land to the Russian because of the invasion and war, and after Germany came in to help kick the Russians out, their villages were burned to the ground in a "scorched earth" policy when the Nazis retreated through Norway.

Stalin was a very, VERY arrogant man.

Nice analysis, Queen! Actually, Finland lost much more than 10% of their land, they also lost a defensible line (the Mannerheim Line), access to Lake Ladoga, mines, their Navy, their Air Force, a large chunk of casualties, etc., et al.

Stalin also, if you'll recall, signed the NAzi-Soviet Non-Agression Treaty of 1939 RIGHT BEFORE Hitler invaded Poland, triggering WWII. In the "secret" protocol, Stalin and Hitler divvied up Poland, the Baltic countries, Moldova (which was then part of Romania), plus trade agreements that helped the Nazis build up for the conquest of Western Europe (France, the Low Countries, Denmark, and Norway).

Without Stalin's explicit collusion (and attempted "buy off" of Hitler) the NAzis would have faced a much different two front war that would, presumably, have ended much quicker and, you may note, WITHOUT significant US and Canadian involvement.

Yes, Russia (and Stalin especially) were real gems! :rolleyes:

[sam i am]

Dude, Harper didn't send us into Afghanistan. That was Jean Chretien, a Liberal Prime Minister.

We never were -- or are, or going to be -- a pacifist nation. I don't what what textbook on Canadian history you've been reading.

Exactly. Canada has been involved in major wars since the 1600's : first with the French, Indians, and British fighting over it, later in the French and Indian Wars, then the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, WWI, WWII, etc., et al.

Canada has been, and likely will continue to be for the foseeable future, an intrinsic partner with the US not only in foreign affairs, but also in trade, etc.

Viva Canada!(y)

[Pres Zount]

How can you know if a country is starting a world war or not? Finland had been on the backberner for the USSR since the late twenties. Stalin didn't just do it since there was a distraction underway. Finnish farmers had called for help gaining more autonomy, instead they got a chance to become a sattelite with a puppet governmnet.

EDIT: so still arrogant then, nevermind me.

[sam i am]

How can you know if a country is starting a world war or not? Finland had been on the backberner for the USSR since the late twenties. Stalin didn't just do it since there was a distraction underway. Finnish farmers had called for help gaining more autonomy, instead they got a chance to become a sattelite with a puppet governmnet.

Your brain must hurt from being so wrong.

Finland was part of Russia long before WWII. The Grand Duchy of Finland was a part of Sweden, which was defeated by the Russian Empire, which then annexed Finland.

After WWI, Finland and the Baltic countries became independent countries.

When Stalin came to power, he yearned for a "barrier" to Nazi expansionist desires into Russia (unlike many Western statesmen, Stalin is purported to have read Mein Kampf and knew Hitler wanted Russia for lebensraum (living space)) and made demands upon Finland, the Baltic countries, Poland, and Romania. All acceded to his demands except Finland, so he gave them an ultimatum, then invaded them. Unexpectedly, the Finns threw him back and caused huge losses of life (Stalin's purge of his officer corps during the 1930's probably was a major cause of this).

The Soviets regrouped, and reinvaded with crushing numbers. The Finns were defeated and made huge concessions to retain their independence.

Know your history and don't try to throw crap against the wall to see if it will stick when you don't have the first clue what the hell you are talking about : "Finnish farmers had called for help gaining more autonomy" is completely false and misleading in the extreme.

Plus, Mannerheim survived the war, was still leader of Finland when the Nazis invaded the USSR in 1941, Finland reentered the war against the USSR, took back all of their lost land, but refused to help Hitler take Leningrad (now St. Petersburg again). After the war, this fact helped Finland to remain independent while other countries fell under the Soviet sway (especially Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary) for sending troops into Russia proper.

[fucktopgirl]

Dude, Harper didn't send us into Afghanistan. That was Jean Chretien, a Liberal Prime Minister.


Yes, if i recalled, it was in october 2001, after the 9/11.
YOU can say that we did not really have the choice, i dont think washington would have accepted a NO.

We never were -- or are, or going to be -- a pacifist nation. I don't what what textbook on Canadian history you've been reading.

I think we did play a big role in the UN peacekeeping units at one time, like we had approximately 80000 servicemen and women, no?

Did we not help refugee to get back safely in kosovo?

Since "HArper the fucker " and his party is in control of canada faith, war has been the dominant topic of the day. It is pretty clear that now we will be more involved with the USA and that is really sad. we will be the littles slaves of BUsh and company...

I dont want to be associated with them at all!

[Pres Zount]

Your brain must hurt from being so wrong.

Finland was part of Russia long before WWII. The Grand Duchy of Finland was a part of Sweden, which was defeated by the Russian Empire, which then annexed Finland.

After WWI, Finland and the Baltic countries became independent countries.

When Stalin came to power, he yearned for a "barrier" to Nazi expansionist desires into Russia (unlike many Western statesmen, Stalin is purported to have read Mein Kampf and knew Hitler wanted Russia for lebensraum (living space)) and made demands upon Finland, the Baltic countries, Poland, and Romania. All acceded to his demands except Finland, so he gave them an ultimatum, then invaded them. Unexpectedly, the Finns threw him back and caused huge losses of life (Stalin's purge of his officer corps during the 1930's probably was a major cause of this).

The Soviets regrouped, and reinvaded with crushing numbers. The Finns were defeated and made huge concessions to retain their independence.

Know your history and don't try to throw crap against the wall to see if it will stick when you don't have the first clue what the hell you are talking about : "Finnish farmers had called for help gaining more autonomy" is completely false and misleading in the extreme.

Plus, Mannerheim survived the war, was still leader of Finland when the Nazis invaded the USSR in 1941, Finland reentered the war against the USSR, took back all of their lost land, but refused to help Hitler take Leningrad (now St. Petersburg again). After the war, this fact helped Finland to remain independent while other countries fell under the Soviet sway (especially Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary) for sending troops into Russia proper.

I meant to say "under the pretence of finnish farmers calling for help". I'll prove it if you like, just give me a chance to come back from work.

[QueenAdrock]

Nice analysis, Queen! Actually, Finland lost much more than 10% of their land, they also lost a defensible line (the Mannerheim Line), access to Lake Ladoga, mines, their Navy, their Air Force, a large chunk of casualties, etc., et al.

In the long run they did lose more than 10%, but I remember there were 3 wars - The Winter War, Continuation War, and then the war to get the Nazis outta their country that wasn't really named. If I remember correctly, Russia first went to Finland and said they wouldn't invade if they gave them a certain amount of land, plus access to one of their peninsulas in order to set up a naval base there. The Finns didn't agree and the invasion occurred. At first only 10% was lost, and the Russians then came back for the Continuation War when they wanted more than what they had. That's all based on memory from last year though. :p

Either way, it sucked for them. They lost so much, and the farmers suffered because they were uprooted from land they had grown up on and displaced elsewhere.

Fuck Stalin, man.

[DroppinScience]

think we did play a big role in the UN peacekeeping units at one time, like we had approximately 80000 servicemen and women, no?

Did we not help refugee to get back safely in kosovo?

Since "HArper the fucker " and his party is in control of canada faith, war has been the dominant topic of the day. It is pretty clear that now we will be more involved with the USA and that is really sad. we will be the littles slaves of BUsh and company...

I dont want to be associated with them at all!

Peacekeeping does not mean "pacifists." Especially when we have a long history of involvement in wars (past and present). The peacekeeping (which has eroded, and this was well BEFORE Conservative power) business just went with the military involvement.

[fucktopgirl]

Peacekeeping does not mean "pacifists."

WEll, we are more peacefull then thirsty for blood.

WE help in ethiopia,east timor, kosovo, bosnia, cyprus, sierra leone, central america, try to help in rwanda but that was a mess tho, afghanistan but now our role there is no more peace keeping....

WE have dimisned our peace keeping activities nowadays(rank 34) but lets be honnest UN is no more what it was. All the theoreticals solutions , long term conflicts preventions strategies cannot easily be translated in the reaL WORLD. Corruption has been reaching and installed itself in the core of this institution too!

Being helpfull and trying to instore peace is not really rewarding $$$$
Destruction and war is more$$$$$
i think that play a role too in the game.

[sam i am]

I meant to say "under the pretence of finnish farmers calling for help". I'll prove it if you like, just give me a chance to come back from work.

Yeah. Just like Hitler staged a Polish "attack" against a German radio post, the NAzis dumped some concentration camp prisoners in Polish uniforms on the ground, then claimed Poland had attacked Germany.

History is open to interpretation, but the facts of what actually occurred are pretty clear cut.

The bottom line is that almost any country you can name in the world is just as dubious, cutthroat, and "bloodthirsty" when you examine their history. Fuckedupgirl made a mistake in trying to claim the US is somehow unique in history, although I would say that the US is still the #1 financial contributor the UN, gives BILLIONS of dollars a year for humanitarian aid, and has "saved" more people in it's history (anyone remember the conquests of Germany, Italy, and Japan plus the win in the Cold War against Soviet oppression?) than any other country.

[QueenAdrock]

On the sidelines, Bush pressed Iran to return at once to international talks on its nuclear program and threatened consequences if they do not.

See, it's statements like this that make me nervous. What consequences? There's only one that I can think of. :-/

[sam i am]

On the sidelines, Bush pressed Iran to return at once to international talks on its nuclear program and threatened consequences if they do not.

See, it's statements like this that make me nervous. What consequences? There's only one that I can think of. :-/

I can think of many : sanctions, embargo, pinpoint bombings of nuclear and oil facilities, more international pressure, etc., et. al....

Do not fear : war with Iran will not happen.

[DroppinScience]

WEll, we are more peacefull then thirsty for blood.

WE help in ethiopia,east timor, kosovo, bosnia, cyprus, sierra leone, central america, try to help in rwanda but that was a mess tho, afghanistan but now our role there is no more peace keeping....


Those things are all well and good, but it's a falsity to claim we're a "pacifist" nation. If you look up the dictionary definition of pacifism, it means you refuse to participate in any war. Canada doesn't fall under that category.

[fucktopgirl]

Those things are all well and good, but it's a falsity to claim we're a "pacifist" nation. If you look up the dictionary definition of pacifism, it means you refuse to participate in any war. Canada doesn't fall under that category.


Well, ok then, we where a more "peacekeeping nation" then just a warfare one , i said where because that is no more the case.

[sam i am]

Well, ok then, we where a more "peacekeeping nation" then just a warfare one , i said where because that is no more the case.

Are you just going to stop talking (or posting) anytime soon since every single time you do you expose yourself for the worthless debater that you are?

[fucktopgirl]

Are you just going to stop talking (or posting) anytime soon since every single time you do you expose yourself for the worthless debater that you are?

just dont talk to me then and shoosh!