that anti-immigration email going around:

[Qdrop]

Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country
protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely.

Let me see if I correctly understand the think ing behind these protests. Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must add me to your family's insurance plan, educate my kids, and provide other benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part). If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there.

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm hard-working and honest, um, except for well, you know. And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being anti-housebreaker.

Oh yes, and I want you to learn my language so you can communicate with me.


you know...
it makes a good point.
no matter how old it is.

[QueenAdrock]

I agree with anti illegal-immigration laws. However, I do sympathize with them. It's really hard to get into this country. $1,300 worth of forms and immunizations, AND you have to have a relative living here to sponsor you. Mother, father, brother, sister, wife, husband. You can't be a legal permanent resident here unless one of them vouches for you. You could have work sponsor you, but they're less likely to take responsibility for that because it basically says "Yes, I am in charge of him and where he is at all times."

They just make it SO difficult to get in here, even though the State Department claims we are an "open nation with secure borders." We're not open at all. They could make it a WEE BIT easier, like, you just need a few close friends to vouch for you.

Plus, after you're here legally, you're not allowed to return to your country of origin for 2 years, even just to visit. What kind of crap is that.

Not saying I agree with illegal immigration, but I do definitely see now how it's much, MUCH easier than doing it legally.

[The Notorious LOL]

if someone broke into my house and clean it I would be like "do it again next week plz"

[Ali]

if someone broke into my house and clean it I would be like "do it again next week plz"
(y) Zakly!

[Schmeltz]

You've gotta qualify that point a little bit. See, the intruder doesn't exactly live in your house, he lives in your gardening shed. It's cramped and small and leaky and you would never live there if you could avoid it, but he figures it's good trade for the benefits he's getting.

And don't forget that you're straight up too lazy to make your own bed, and wash your own dishes, and clean your own bathroom, and do your own laundry, and so on - and if this guy left, your house would be in pretty sloppy condition in pretty short order, and your own quality of life would diminish accordingly.

So yeah, as long as we're thinking in those terms, that email makes a pretty good point - which is that there is no black-and-white answer to any social problem, and you've got to give as good as you get.

[Qdrop]

You've gotta qualify that point a little bit. See, the intruder doesn't exactly live in your house, he lives in your gardening shed. It's cramped and small and leaky and you would never live there if you could avoid it, but he figures it's good trade for the benefits he's getting. no no...
that's not really valid.
obviously, the "house" is a metephor for nation...
where they live in the nation is completely irrelevant.

And don't forget that you're straight up too lazy to make your own bed, and wash your own dishes, and clean your own bathroom, and do your own laundry, and so on
those "chores" being housecleaning, fruit picking, and other lower-skilled, lower page jobs.

so again, it's the "THEY DO THE JOBS THAT AMERICAN WON'T DO!" soundbyte, urban-myth dogma.

at this point, yeah...many Americans can't take those jobs because the pay is ILLEGALLY low.
and how did that wage become so low?
as with any industrialized(ing) nation..standards of living increase...pay increases...costs of living increase with it...inflation. standard stuff.
you must make a certain level of income to live at the "cultural standard" of living. nothing wrong with that.
we don't NEED cable TV and V6 engines and air conditioning...but for many, if not most americans, that is easily accessable standard of living...so is having 1 or 2 kids and some money to go to the movies...and have a cell phone.
these are not gross luxuries...these are perfectly acceptable standards accessible to majority of the american workforce.
and wages, overall, keep up with those demands. and the gov't keeps that in check with a minimum wage.

but what happens when illegal immigrants come in and offer thier serivces ILLEGALLY, for VERY low wages....often times ILLEGALLY lower wages?
many businesses or farms or individuals trying to raise profits take them up on that offer....MANY MANY do....
and the standard wage for those jobs drops dramatically...far below the living wage standard...far below the standard of living for the majority of americans.
the immigrants accept this...because this low standard of living is still better than what they had in thier own countries failing economy.
so thier "economic disease and subsequent low standard of living" is spread to us.
they set the bar too low for the majority of Americans to accept....or even live on.
not because we are lazy....but because this nation busted it's FUCKING ASS to raise the average income and level of living....why the fuck should we accept a decrease due to ILLEGAL activity?
how sanctimonious is it for someone to call americans "lazy" for wanting to maintain a comfortable level of living that this countries economy has strived for?
we should feel "guilty" about wanting a decent home, 2 kids and a dog, 1 or 2 decent cars, and cable TV?
that standard of living didn't fall out of the fuckin sky....our nation WORKED for that standard.
fuck other nations if they think us greedy and materialistic....
they can say what they want...BUT THE ALL FUCKIN COME HERE ANYWAY, the fuckin hypocrits, cause they want the same.

so we work for a standard....illegals come here and artificially force that standad down in a few sectors...effectively taking most of the american workforce out of the running unless they want to severely lower thier standard of living or live in squalor (which they shouldn't have to), rather than enjoying the standard of living this country has worked for.

they are parasites.
illegal immigrants are parasites.

to justify thier presence by spouting "they do the jobs american won't do" is a slap in the face to the economic history of the american workforce and the work it's done to raise our standard of living to where it is.

[Tone Capone]

You've gotta qualify that point a little bit. See, the intruder doesn't exactly live in your house, he lives in your gardening shed. It's cramped and small and leaky and you would never live there if you could avoid it, but he figures it's good trade for the benefits he's getting

If I found out someone was living my MY shed, that would be his ass. I don't care what he FIGURED... these are bad metaphors guys.

[yeahwho]

How many more taco buses does America want?

[Tone Capone]

How many more taco buses does America want?

That wasn't cool... :mad:

[yeahwho]

Now your mad at me.

[guerillaGardner]

Excuse me if I'm being naive here.....but isn't the entire United States stolen from the Native Americans? Aren't those who took the land by violence and forced the Native Americans to speak their language and live their ways the real illegal immigrants.

I think the Sioux and Apache and Shoshone ....etc, are the ones who should have the final say on that matter.

[Schmeltz]

obviously, the "house" is a metephor for nation...
where they live in the nation is completely irrelevant.


How so? Illegal immigrants can hardly be said to enjoy the same creature comforts or standard of living as legal workers who make more money and have many more avenues of advancement open to them. A gardening shed isn't as nice as a house, but it's better than the street; similarly, living as an illegal immigrant in America is worse than living as a legal worker, but probably better than starving in Mexico.


but what happens when illegal immigrants come in and offer thier serivces ILLEGALLY, for VERY low wages....often times ILLEGALLY lower wages?
many businesses or farms or individuals trying to raise profits take them up on that offer


That's exactly the crux of the matter, all your rhetoric about the noble history of the American workforce aside. These immigrants would not come to your country if your countrymen were not willing to give them a deal. Don't blame poor people for looking to improve their lot through whatever means are offered to them; blame those who exploit this basic human faculty in order to make a buck. Illegal immigrants cannot do anything to "force down" the standard of pay or living, they are powerless social and economic actors. It's American business who gladly takes them up on their offer at the expense of legal workers.

You're probably right to say that I shouldn't have implied that American workers are lazy, so I'll retract the way I phrased that comment. But I think it's equally wrong to assert that these impoverished, poorly educated people somehow direct the American economy through their mere presence. They supply a demand that is the real source of the problem.

[chrisd]

I don't think you can stop migration. It's a process which overwhelms the capacities of nation states. It's a dynamic form of distribution; people from poor parts come to rich parts instead of rich parts doing charity. The U.S. has tried to integrate mass immigration and i think has succeeded. The poison around now is the idea that there is such thing as an a priori american. A person, whether asian, middle eastern, latin, african, european whatever wills to become an american and usually leaves more sweat and tears on it's soil than the pilgrims' children. I don't see how wasps or irish or german, scottish, whatever descendents can make a claim to be more american than the brave who overcome whatever laws put up to live freely under the constitution. It's funny: only in the sixties the whites were returning to their ethnic roots and now they think they're pure americans. Purety is a bad political idea. Every anti-immigration american should trace their heritage and see where they came from. Maybe their ancestors cam legally, maybe illegally. What's illegal today may need clarification through the constitutionally legitimacy of those constrained. Plus people should check how much of their fervor is specific racism against latinos.

[Qdrop]

immigration is fantastic.
just do it legally.

it is far more difficult for a company to underpay workers (below min. wage) if the worker are documented citizens.

come one, come all! work for min. wage or better.
i'm all for it.

it's when they work for less, that i have problem.

and when illegals with criminal records get through that i have a problem.

[Drederick Tatum]

well since you consistently stress that they are ILLEGALS you have effectively branded them all as CRIMINALS. FOREIGN CRIMINALS. ACTUALLY WORSE THAN FOREIGN, THEY'RE MEXICAN. INVADING MY COUNTRY. FOREIGN MEXICAN CRIMINALS INVADING MY COUNTRY AND TAKING MY WHITE JOB AND WHITE WOMEN.

[Echewta]

Did the Indians and Mexicans pass this email around during the U.S.'s manifest destiny?

[chrisd]

good point (i looked up manifest destiny on google) and reminds one that most nations are based on nothing short of fasciscm

[Qdrop]

well since you consistently stress that they are ILLEGALS you have effectively branded them all as CRIMINALS. FOREIGN CRIMINALS. ACTUALLY WORSE THAN FOREIGN, THEY'RE MEXICAN. INVADING MY COUNTRY. FOREIGN MEXICAN CRIMINALS INVADING MY COUNTRY AND TAKING MY WHITE JOB AND WHITE WOMEN.

how tasteless and simple.
brand me a bigot because you lack the intellect to formulate any high-brow debate.

i don't want people coming here illegally and artificially lowering wages on production jobs....so i must be a racist bigot who hates latinos.

go back to BeastieFree General, Lowbrow...

[Qdrop]

Did the Indians and Mexicans pass this email around during the U.S.'s manifest destiny?

one can find hypocrisy in ANY country's history if you look hard and long enough.
if such past historical activity means the current generation hasn't the right to speak...then we'd have a world of silent humans who could protest nothing and not cast a single stone.

the US had legalized slavery for years. does this mean we have no right to aid a country that is trying to end ethnic oppression?

every person on this planet has past indescretions that they are not proud of.
does this mean they can never speak out against these activities when older and wiser?

in situation like this the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone.." ideal would lead to complete paralysis.

not to mention...comparing manifest destiny and settling on "indian land" is really not comparable to immigrants breaking international law and crossing border to work for artificially low wages.

[King PSYZ]

I don't care where someone is from, but I think that if someone is going to move to a new country for a better life they should meet some requirements. Very simple ones really.

You should learn the local language, which here is English. If I moved to Mexico, I would need to learn Spanish to survive. If I moved to France I'd need to learn French to survive. If I moved to Russia, I'd have to speak Russian. Ect., it's considered polite that when you go to another country you learn the local language. All it does is further seperate ties with the new country of choice if one refuses to learn the local language and instead demand their language be used in forms, and signage, advertising, ect.

I love how the guilty white folks and angry immigrants holler racism when someone says 'Hey shouldn't you pay your fair share of taxes and learn English since that's the language of the land?'

It's not racist to ask that people who move here to take advantage of the so called 'better way of life' to learn the language to better communicate with the 'locals' as it were. It really would make things better for everyone, no more language barriers in our own country. It doesn't mean that Phillipino, or Chinese, or Spanish, or any other language would be illegal. But you won't find these used in state or federal documents and such.

And you can't make the distinction that their living conditions put them in the "leaky garden shed" vs. the interior of the house as it were. It is true that illegal workforces make it easier for farmers and other employers on tight profit margins to lower wages. Are the employers who do this just as bad? Hell yes. Does that make it ok? Hell no. If everyone working in the US was a documented citazen meaning that they were subject to equal and fair wages they wouldn't be living in the 'leaky shed'.

Lastly, the argument that 'white people' don't want these jobs is not only fucking retarded, it's also racist. One America is made up of a lot more than 'white people', there's all kinds here in America, and for the most part we all had to work for what we had and start at the bottom. My boss for instance, who probablly pulls 6 figures or more a year now started as a lot porter. That's the guy who moves a car from one end of the lot to another or who drives a car from the service center to the customer. A glorified parker, and the lowest job in a dealership.

When I was growing up, I wanted to work in construction, yet because I was a legal working memeber of the United States of America, I couldn't work on any sites unless I was related to the foreman or the contractor. Because they had truck loads of illegal workers they would openly pick up on the corner who they could hire for half price and not worry about accidents and insurance. At one point I was homeless and in dire need of work and kept getting turned down at these and many other jobs because why hire someone that if they get hurt they're in deep shit and subject to a lawsuit when they could hire someone who they'll throw to the side if something happens. So don't tell me 'white people' or Americans in general wouldn't do this work cause they would if they could...

[b i o n i c]

many immigrants do pay taxes


little known fact. true story (http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060501.shtml).


(this is the first thing any immigration lawyer would tell an alien to do.)

[HAL 9000]

I think that the reason that the email analogy fails is because of the issue of ownership – it speaks of someone moving into YOUR house.

So what makes a country YOUR country and thus gives someone the right to say that others should not live there? Being born there? I was born in Britain, I did nothing to earn that, all I did was enjoy the fruits of my genetic lottery win. I have done nothing exceptional to contribute to society, I have just taken the almost free education and become moderately successful and wealthy without any real effort because little was needed. I pay taxes but I definitely receive a lot more from Britain than I give.

I don’t really think that I have any more right to live on this particular bit of the planet than anyone else, this is not MY house I just stay here and put my feet up. I don’t really feel like I should stop others doing the same.

[Qdrop]

I don't care where someone is from, but I think that if someone is going to move to a new country for a better life they should meet some requirements. Very simple ones really.

You should learn the local language, which here is English. If I moved to Mexico, I would need to learn Spanish to survive. If I moved to France I'd need to learn French to survive. If I moved to Russia, I'd have to speak Russian. Ect., it's considered polite that when you go to another country you learn the local language. All it does is further seperate ties with the new country of choice if one refuses to learn the local language and instead demand their language be used in forms, and signage, advertising, ect.

I love how the guilty white folks and angry immigrants holler racism when someone says 'Hey shouldn't you pay your fair share of taxes and learn English since that's the language of the land?'

It's not racist to ask that people who move here to take advantage of the so called 'better way of life' to learn the language to better communicate with the 'locals' as it were. It really would make things better for everyone, no more language barriers in our own country. It doesn't mean that Phillipino, or Chinese, or Spanish, or any other language would be illegal. But you won't find these used in state or federal documents and such.

And you can't make the distinction that their living conditions put them in the "leaky garden shed" vs. the interior of the house as it were. It is true that illegal workforces make it easier for farmers and other employers on tight profit margins to lower wages. Are the employers who do this just as bad? Hell yes. Does that make it ok? Hell no. If everyone working in the US was a documented citazen meaning that they were subject to equal and fair wages they wouldn't be living in the 'leaky shed'.

Lastly, the argument that 'white people' don't want these jobs is not only fucking retarded, it's also racist. One America is made up of a lot more than 'white people', there's all kinds here in America, and for the most part we all had to work for what we had and start at the bottom. My boss for instance, who probablly pulls 6 figures or more a year now started as a lot porter. That's the guy who moves a car from one end of the lot to another or who drives a car from the service center to the customer. A glorified parker, and the lowest job in a dealership.

When I was growing up, I wanted to work in construction, yet because I was a legal working memeber of the United States of America, I couldn't work on any sites unless I was related to the foreman or the contractor. Because they had truck loads of illegal workers they would openly pick up on the corner who they could hire for half price and not worry about accidents and insurance. At one point I was homeless and in dire need of work and kept getting turned down at these and many other jobs because why hire someone that if they get hurt they're in deep shit and subject to a lawsuit when they could hire someone who they'll throw to the side if something happens. So don't tell me 'white people' or Americans in general wouldn't do this work cause they would if they could...

amen, brutha.(y)

[Qdrop]

So what makes a country YOUR country and thus gives someone the right to say that others should not live there?
citizenship.
abiding the laws of the land.

[b i o n i c]

my family came here the way so many immigrants have...

with $25 dollars in their pockets, one change of clothes and some change. this was in 1976. my dad worked in sweatshops, restaurants, all kinds of jobs that paid practically nothing. ive seen pictures, ive seen his old pay stubs. five years later he opened his own sportswear manufacturing plant, started with ONE knitting machine in a garage. that grew to more than 200 machines, each one worth more than what most americans make in a year. and ten years later put 350+ people (his employees) to work in new york city. twelve years later he brought my family to live in the one of the 15 wealthiest neighborhoods in the united states. he didnt speak a word of english when he came here. he never took a penny from the government. he didnt take anyones job. he came here at 27 years of age, and since then has done more than most 27 year old AMERICANS will ever dream of doing. 350+ immigrant AND american families ate off my dirty, filthy immigrant dad.

id like to know what the ratio of americans, who with all the opportunity and advantages in the world, do what so many just like my dad have done. those that speak selfish ignorance from their painfully isolated, unnotable and mediocre existances have NO IDEA what the real meaning of america is. people like my dad ARE america.

[King PSYZ]

Is your dad a legal citizen? I'm guessing if he wasn't, by now he is and seeing as you also speak, read, and write in English then your family has taken to the land and learned to common language here.

I have never said I was anti-immigration, hell that's what made this country what it is. I am anti ILLEGAL-immigration though. And honestly the thread title should be changed to reflect that.

Also, you're more than a little presumptious. I mean seriously dude, we ALL make America what it is, just cause you and yours are rich now because of some hard work and a bit of luck (because starting ANY business is a roll of the dice) doesn't make you more American. Fuck I am related to the god damend Deacon on the Mayflower, so we can play the who's more Amercian game. But that's the not the point of this discussion, the point is that this, like any other country has laws about taking in new citizens. Some countries are tougher, hell you can't even vacation to Australlia without a sizable ammount of cash on your person "in case of emergencies" as evidenced by calls I made myself and several accounts from friends who have vacationed there.

[b i o n i c]

like most immigrants - that was always his intention.

he is now. from the minute he stepped foot in this country he was more american than most people who spend their time with this shit will ever be.

[King PSYZ]

like most immigrants - that was always his intention.
Unfortunately, while yes many do come here wanting to be citizens, many also don't. In the west coast, and more so in the seasonal farming business and in resturaunts as well many illegal immigrants see it as temporary. Make some fast cash and go back home, if they need more money for the family or whatever, get a new social security number and come back under a new name.

he is now. from the minute he stepped foot in this country he was more american than most people who spend their time with this shit will ever be.

seriously, get off the I'm more American(Punk) than you shit, it's silly.

[Qdrop]

Bionic, don't change this into an anti-immigration debate...
because it's not...and you're just building a strawman.

yes, psych is right...i should have titled this thread anti-ILLEGAL immigration...
but that has obviously been the subject here.

what your dad did with the AMERICAN economic and social freedoms are of no consequence to this debate.
yes, he sounds like a terrific man...and is holding true to the American ideals of oppurtunity and melting pots...
fantastic.

just do it legally.

[b i o n i c]

this wouldve never happened had he waited around or not gone through the loopholes.

ive heard the whole mayflower thing before and thats not what makes someone american, in my opinion. my ex girlfriend also claimed to be descended from those that came on the mayflower. after all those generations of opportunity, the entire family is still ordinary and middle class. id gladly send them away to mexico or zimbabwe in exchange for some people with vision and ambition.

call me presumptious, i call it proud. you call it luck, i call it a self-fulfilling destiny. he did not come here to work in some shop and spend his days online arguing about hypotheticals. he came here to work, make money, and to move up the social ladder. luck, if at all, played a very minor factor - there was NOTHING that could hold them back.

and i wasnt talking about me being more american than anyone. i was born here. im talking about the average immigrant who comes here and lives out the spirit of why this country came to be - PROGRESS - as opposed to your average american who is content with a car, a roof and cable television.

i know its hard for some americans to hear a story like this, but this story is no more 'presumptuos' than the garbage you hear on threads like this. at least this story is true.

[Qdrop]

this wouldve never happened had he waited around or not gone through the loopholes. so the first thing he did when he came here is break the law?
is that a slap in the face to those immigrants that DO play by the rules and do things legally?
i think it is.
or are they just idiots for abiding the law?

did everything else your father do make up for that?

maybe...
maybe not.

the entire family is still ordinary and middle class.
what's "ordinary and middle class"?
how elitist and pretentious are you?


im talking about the average immigrant who comes here and lives out the spirit of why this country came to be - PROGRESS that's a hell of a stereotype. you really think that decribes all average illegal immigrants?

- as opposed to your average american who is content with a car, a roof and cable television. that's bad? if we're not striving to be bill gates, then we suck?

[b i o n i c]

so the first thing he did when he came here is break the law?
is that a slap in the face to those immigrants that DO play by the rules and do things legally? i think it is. or are they just idiots for abiding the law? did everything else your father do make up for that? maybe... maybe not.

YES.

what's "ordinary and middle class"? how elitist and pretentious are you?

ordinary. you know... the opposite of extraordinary - average, unremarkable, not exceptional. middle class, c'mon... as in not poor, not well off. those are not offensive words, they are a matter of fact.

that's a hell of a stereotype. you really think that decribes all average illegal immigrants?

i didnt say all. but yes, most. most immigrants, legal or illegal are here to progress.

if we're not striving to be bill gates, then we suck?

you say it like its a bad thing. the man is an example. but no. not everyone has the ability to be a bill gates, it wouldnt make sense for everyone to strive to be like him. but, quite frankly, being 'content' isnt really the fuel that drives progress.

[Qdrop]

i'm content with being middle to upper-middle class.

i don't want to sacrifice anymore family time or become too infatuated with materialstic ownership and business activity to go any higher.

would you like to ship me to mexico in return for a poor immigrant who wants to have more than his donkey and shack?

would that make things better?

----

while i obviously don't agree with you...i admire your hardline approach.
i appreciate that you don't pull punches.

[King PSYZ]

wow... just wow.

[b i o n i c]

wow... just wow.

eh?
-------------------------

it just really bothers me that so many people have this really terrible concept of who immigrants are. the bad stuff you see is usually the result of ignorance and lack of education, and admittedly there is no excuse for anything but best behaviours from all visitors. criminals should be deported immediately. people who don't work should starve. people who dont educate themselves should pay the consequences. im not saying that things are even close to alright, i just dont think anyone really understands the issues enough to match them with a fair and proper solution. in the meantime, people are hungry and they go where the food is. believe me, if they could they would much rather stay in their own countries than to come here and serve people that hate them.

unfortunately for whatever reasons, they dont have opportunities at home, and in some (i said some) cases because the u.s and european nations have come into THEIR countries, imposed THEIR rules and boxed them out of worthy opportunities there. so they break some rules to get here for a better life... its not like they're breaking the rules to bump up the value of their stock so that they can get that multimillion dollar bonus at the expense of someone else's native ecosystem, economy and way of life.

and to whomever said that... the place where we were born is a matter of luck. we are not entitled to anything. if my parents had stayed where they were, i wouldnt be running around without shoes, i wouldnt be hungry, id have an education... but i sure am glad my dad made the choice to move forward at any cost - and trust me, my poor dad has paid the price in many ways. i know im better off and i love my parents to death for the sacrifices theyve made for me and my family.

the vast majority of immigrants i've dealt with in my life are good, hard-working people of high moral standards. there are probably more blood-sucking, degenerate, opportunistic americans to worry about than the little mexican guy who's here to work and sends half of the $300 he earned in a 60 hour week to his mother and wife. he's not here to buy fancy clothes, always have the top of the line cellphone, new sneakers and a bmw that he can barely afford while his children starve. he's here to put food in the mouths of people that depend on him - in an environment where he's treated like an animal. that's courage. that's love. that's being a man.

my mom works with immigrants here and there. she's told me about english classes late at night FILLED with dirty, smelly, exhausted immigrant workers struggling to stay awake after they've worked all day for peanuts mowing the lawns of and serving food to the rich. most of these people have been up since the crack of dawn and have come straight from work to these classes. but they're so tired from working their asses off all day, that they can't stay awake to learn.

one thing that really bothers me about immigrants as a general statement is that often times i see these poor immigrant moms with tons of kids, more problems when they haven't really solved their own problems. shit this is just a problem with poor people in general. its a HUGE problem that in some cases i believe comes from strict adherance religion and lack of education and other times from plain carelessness and superstition. BIG problem. and i admit, it angers me to see a 19 year old immigrant mother with 5 screaming children around her. its just wrong on all levels. in my opinion, that is the number one problem that poor people put into their own lives. it should be against the law to have children if you cant provide for them..

mind you, i am not putting down all americans - not even MOST americans. despite what ive said here and despite our image around the world, people need to know that at the core this is a country of good people with good intentions. yes, there are differences as we see in this thread, but we have a unique culture of good will. im talking to everyone else.

i know the the lazy, leeching kind do exist but they are not the majority. look around - what is our population at? 300million? + roughly 20million illegal immigrants? i would say that much more than 10% of our true blue americans fall into the category of lazy, bloodsucking and useless. we should be worrying about them just as much if not more than immigrants taking from america.

q: i am glad that people like you give their real opinions without worrying about what someone else might say. sometimes i agree with you. i dont here. it gives the opportunity for real honest dialogue without all the anus licking. if you sugar coated things, it'd be an invite for more sugarcoating and the whole discussion would suffer.

[Drederick Tatum]

how tasteless and simple.
brand me a bigot because you lack the intellect to formulate any high-brow debate.

i don't want people coming here illegally and artificially lowering wages on production jobs....so i must be a racist bigot who hates latinos.

go back to BeastieFree General, Lowbrow...

Q-Drop, really, you of all people branding others as low brow, it's ironic on so many levels.
the reason why I don't formulate any 'high brow' debate is because argument and discussion on the internet is so unsatisfying, mainly because of people like you.
basically, you're literally not worth my time. so I will go back to Beastie-Free, post a couple of throwaway comments and then leave, since I have actual real intellectual debates to formulate. after you've graced us all with your intellect, go back to designing boxes or whatever it is you do to pass the time.

[b i o n i c]

im reading my posts and i could see how someone might think it sounds elitist. well here's a kicker and subject to a new topic: finally the business could not compete with cheaper chinese and japanese products. half of the older machines were sold to a korean guy who had immigrated to the country my dad came from. how's that for irony.

all those people were out of a job. my dad did alright in the end. everyone found a new way to make a living. on a grander scale, it was part of a shift to a more service oriented workforce for all of those people. the neighborhood is all posh and the buildings are lofts now. for a while it felt like the government was just neglecting the working man in favor of corporate industry interests and local gentrification - which, actually, it was.

but all of thise shifts brought about new things. i feel like its part of a natural flow of the economy, where doors closed, others opened. when immigrants come in to do jobs that require little skill, those americans better prepared to learn can move on if they really want to. or they could sit around demanding their low-skill, no qualification jobs. maybe this shift caused a few people to get some sort of education. i know some of them became nurses, home health aides, retail workers, what have you. ive met kids of people who worked for my dad and they've become just like you and me. college graduates, office workers, doctors, writers.. in many cases they were also children of immigrants finally did assimilate - giving purpose to that struggle and completing the mission.

yeah thats that.

[King PSYZ]

What's really interesting is that the Mexico portion of the imigration equation might go away soon.

With the recent discovery in Mexico of a huge oil deposit, they could be on course to have a very strong economy and at that point you might see some Americans sneaking into Mexico for some oil rig work...

Would be interesting to see how Americans immigrating to other countries for work are treated.

[Qdrop]

Q-Drop, really, you of all people branding others as low brow, it's ironic on so many levels.
the reason why I don't formulate any 'high brow' debate is because argument and discussion on the internet is so unsatisfying, mainly because of people like you.
basically, you're literally not worth my time. so I will go back to Beastie-Free, post a couple of throwaway comments and then leave, since I have actual real intellectual debates to formulate. after you've graced us all with your intellect, go back to designing boxes or whatever it is you do to pass the time.

hahahah..
translation: "I COULD IF I WANTED TO!...I JUST DON'T WANNA...PHPPPPPPPT!"

[b i o n i c]

oh no you dihin't

[steve-onpoint]

So what makes a country YOUR country and thus gives someone the right to say that others should not live there? Being born there? I was born in Britain, I did nothing to earn that, all I did was enjoy the fruits of my genetic lottery win. I have done nothing exceptional to contribute to society, I have just taken the almost free education and become moderately successful and wealthy without any real effort because little was needed. I pay taxes but I definitely receive a lot more from Britain than I give.


Yeah, but you're a robot.