GOOD ONE, POPE

[Bob]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-09-15-pope-protest_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA

Religious leaders across Mideast rage against pope's comments on Islam
Updated 9/15/2006 10:43 AM ET E-mail | Save | Print | Subscribe to stories like this Subscribe to stories like this
Muslim protestors shout slogans against the pope at a rally Friday in Jammu, India.
Enlarge By Channi Anand, AP
Muslim protestors shout slogans against the pope at a rally Friday in Jammu, India.
Islamic cleric Ali Bardakoglu, left, was offended by comments that Pope Benedict XVI, right, made during a visit to Germany.
Enlarge AP photos
Islamic cleric Ali Bardakoglu, left, was offended by comments that Pope Benedict XVI, right, made during a visit to Germany.
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — Turkey's ruling Islamic-rooted party joined a wave of criticism of Pope Benedict XVI on Friday, accusing him of trying to revive the spirit of the Crusades with remarks he made about the Muslim faith.

ON DEADLINE: Read what the pope said, what experts think

Pakistan's parliament unanimously condemned the pope and the Foreign Ministry summoned the Vatican's ambassador to express regret over the remarks.

The Vatican said the pope did not intend the remarks — made in Germany on Tuesday during an address at a university — to be offensive.

Benedict quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and a Persian scholar on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

Benedict did not explicitly agree with the statement nor repudiate it.

The comments raised tensions ahead of his planned visit to Turkey in November — his first pilgrimage to a Muslim country.

Salih Kapusuz, a deputy leader of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's party, said Benedict's remarks were either "the result of pitiful ignorance" about Islam and its prophet, or a deliberate distortion.

"He has a dark mentality that comes from the darkness of the Middle Ages. He is a poor thing that has not benefited from the spirit of reform in the Christian world," Kapusuz was quoted as saying by the state-owned Anatolia news agency. "It looks like an effort to revive the mentality of the Crusades."

"Benedict, the author of such unfortunate and insolent remarks, is going down in history for his words," he said. "He is going down in history in the same category as leaders such as (Adolf) Hitler and (Benito) Mussolini."

Turkey's staunchly secular opposition party also demanded that Benedict apologize to Muslims before his visit.

"The pope has thrown gasoline onto the fire ... in a world where the risk of a clash between religions is high," said Haluk Koc, deputy head of the Republican People's Party, as a small group of protesters left a black wreath in front of the Vatican's embassy in Ankara.

Lebanon's most senior Shiite Muslim cleric denounced the remarks and demanded the pope personally apologize.

"We do not accept the apology through Vatican channels ... and ask him (Benedict) to offer a personal apology — not through his officials — to Muslims for this false reading (of Islam)," Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah told worshippers.

After Benedict returned to Italy on Thursday, Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi said, "It certainly wasn't the intention of the pope to carry out a deep examination of jihad (holy war) and on Muslim thought on it, much less to offend the sensibility of Muslim believers."

Lombardi insisted the pope respects Islam. Benedict wants to "cultivate an attitude of respect and dialogue toward the other religions and cultures, obviously also toward Islam," he said.

Turkey's top Islamic cleric, Ali Bardakoglu, said Lombardi's comments were not enough. "The pope himself should stand at the dais and say 'I take it all back, I was misunderstood' and apologize in order to contribute to world peace," he said.

In another development, the pope appointed Archbishop Dominique Mamberti, a French prelate with experience in the Muslim world, as the Vatican's new foreign minister.

But anger still swept across the Muslim world, with Pakistan's parliament unanimously adopting a resolution condemning the pope for making what it called "derogatory" comments about Islam and the Foreign Ministry summoning the Vatican ambassador.

The pope's words were "deeply disturbing for Muslims all over the world, and had caused great hurt and anguish," the Foreign Ministry said.

The Vatican's envoy "regretted the hurt caused to Muslims and said that the media had totally misconstrued certain historical quotes that the Pope used in his lecture," the statement said.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, of the Islamic Hamas group, said the pontiff had offended Muslims everywhere and called on him to reconsider his statement. He said there would be organized protests later in the day "to express Palestinian anger."

In Iraq's Shiite Muslim-stronghold of Kufa, Sheik Salah al-Ubaidi criticized the pope during Friday prayers, saying his remarks were a second assault on Islam.

"Last year and in the same month the Danish cartoon assaulted Islam," he said, referring to a Danish newspaper's publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, which triggered outrage in the Muslim world.

Indonesia, which has more Muslims than any other in the world, had no immediate response to the pope's comments, but religious groups were quick to protest, condemning the words as insensitive and damaging.

"A respected religious leader like the pope should not say such things, especially as nations across the globe are struggling to find ways to bridge differences between faiths and build understanding," said Ma'ruf Amin, a member of Indonesia Council of Clerics, the country's highest Islamic body.

Din Syamsuddin, chairman of Muhammadiyah, Indonesia's second-largest Islamic organization, also expressed disappointment but urged calm.

The head of Britain's largest Muslim body said it was disturbed by the pope's use of a 14th century passage. The Muslim Council, which represents 400 groups in Britain, said the emperor's views were "ill-informed and frankly bigoted."

"One would expect a religious leader such as the pope to act and speak with responsibility and repudiate the Byzantine emperor's views in the interests of truth and harmonious relations between the followers of Islam and Catholicism," said Muhammad Abdul Bari, the council's secretary-general.

Elsewhere, Syria's top Sunni Muslim religious authority, Sheik Ahmad Badereddine Hassoun, sent a letter to the pope that he feared the comments would worsen interfaith relations.

Later, he delivered a scathing sermon in which he denounced the remarks. "We have heard about your extremism and hate for Arabs and Muslims. Now that you have dropped the mask from your face we see its ugliness and extremist nature," he said.

In Cairo, about 100 demonstrators gathered in an anti-Vatican protest outside the al-Azhar mosque, chanting "Oh Crusaders, oh cowards! Down with the pope!"

Dozens of lawyers in Indian-controlled Kashmir also protested, while two separatist leaders were placed under house arrest as they were planning to lead demonstrations.

Benedict, who has made the fight against growing secularism in Western society a theme of his pontificate, is expected to visit Turkey in late November. He was invited by the staunchly secularist Turkish President Ahmet Necdet Sezer, who said the invitation was part of an effort to strengthen dialogue between religions.

in his defense, the muslim outrage over this seems to be blown way out of proprortion, they're definitely taking what the pope said frighteningly out of context, but still, geez! given the current political climate, you would think you'd know better than to use a quote like "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." without a ginormous amount of tact. i don't know, i mean, i wasn't there, maybe he was super careful about it, but it sounds like he neither agreed with it or argued against it from the news so far. really good job there, this should go over well

[Nivvie]

This man really interests me.
He once had to attend de-Nazification classes.
There's so much about him that's interesting, but alas, he's another doddery old geeza that says the wrong thing.

[D_Raay]

When I first read this yesterday morning I literally dropped my bagel on my slippers I was so stunned.

[DroppinScience]

If he didn't argue for or against that quotation, well then, I ask... what the hell WAS he thinking bringing it up? Was it out of whimsy, just thought he'd throw it in.

I don't get how you'd bring up a quotation that more or less says "Islam is evil" and don't personally respond to it.

[kaiser soze]

The Holy War is not wanted from just one religion....it takes two to tango

seriously, people are trying to bring the apocolypse one step closer

[Bob]

If he didn't argue for or against that quotation, well then, I ask... what the hell WAS he thinking bringing it up? Was it out of whimsy, just thought he'd throw it in.

I don't get how you'd bring up a quotation that more or less says "Islam is evil" and don't personally respond to it.

honestly. i get the feeling that there MUST be more to it, i'd really like to hear the quote in context of his speech. surely, you don't get to be pope if you're that dumb

and don't get me wrong here, i DO recognize that the muslim protestors are way the fuck overreacting too, they seem to make it sound like those are the words of the pope himself, which is not at all true. i'm not saying they're reacting rationally to this.

but still, what the hell was he thinking? i mean if it were just some politician or some priest somewhere, that would be one thing, but the goddamn pope? bad bad bad

[steve-onpoint]

i get the feeling that there MUST be more to it


your feelings serve you well, i'm pretty sure.

[DroppinScience]

and don't get me wrong here, i DO recognize that the muslim protestors are way the fuck overreacting too, they seem to make it sound like those are the words of the pope himself, which is not at all true. i'm not saying they're reacting rationally to this.

Wouldn't be the first time they've overreacted (see: the cartoon controversy and the Miss Universe rioting in Nigeria). But this time they have a stronger case. And I'm quite suspicious of this new pope. He's got a Nazi past and he just looks evil. :eek:

[Bob]

Wouldn't be the first time they've overreacted (see: the cartoon controversy and the Miss Universe rioting in Nigeria). But this time they have a stronger case. And I'm quite suspicious of this new pope. He's got a Nazi past and he just looks evil. :eek:

and then there was that time that they put steven colbert on fatwah (do you put people on fatwah? i don't know, i'm assuming it's the islamic equivalent of being put on notice) for saying that halloween was a better holiday than ramadan. reaaaaaallly giving a lot of people a bad image, these guys, whoever they are :(

i don't really know much about the pope quite honestly, i haven't been following him. i heard about the nazi thing but i dunno, i think i remember hearing he had a good excuse for it. or that it was wrong. i'm not sure. it would be weird at any rate for the catholic church to elect a nazi to lead it. i just assumed that they more or less knew what they were doing.

[DroppinScience]

and then there was that time that they put steven colbert on fatwah (do you put people on fatwah? i don't know, i'm assuming it's the islamic equivalent of being put on notice) for saying that halloween was a better holiday than ramadan. reaaaaaallly giving a lot of people a bad image, these guys, whoever they are :(

A fatwah means they would want him dead. And I don't think they issued a fatwah on Colbert. Because if that happened, Colbert would pretty much have to go into hiding.

Salman Rushdie had to go into hiding when a fatwah was issued on him (he's kinda less in hiding nowadays, but the fatwah still stands).

[Bob]

I dunno, he mentioned it on his show. he then proceeded to publically apologize and say that "ramadan is a better holiday than halloween", which i thought was hilarious

[fucktopgirl]

Hey, the uglypope aka the emperor knew exactly what the reaction to that quote would be...they just want to fucking pissed out the islam people and make them go nuts so then they can justitifeid their war.

Ok , maybe a pushed it too far but one thing for sure...he did not say this innocently!

like kaiser said "the holy war" is growing strong!

[Bob]

oh, well, at least he's done some good for the region

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/15529506.htm

Pope's comments on Islam unite Iraqis
REBECCA SANTANA
Associated Press

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Often divided by religious differences, Iraq's Shiite and Sunni Arabs united Friday in anger over remarks by Pope Benedict XVI referring to Islam and holy war.

Clerics from both communities, which are locked in a vicious cycle of reprisal attacks that have killed thousands of Iraqis, called the pontiff's comments an insult to the Muslim faith and its founder, Prophet Muhammad.

"We denounce this slander made by the pope on Islam and the figure of the Prophet Muhammad," Sheik Salah al-Ubaidi said in a sermon to about 5,000 people in the Shiite Muslim-stronghold of Kufa, about 100 miles south of Baghdad.

"It is the second assault made on Islam and the prophet. Last year, and in the same month, the Danish cartoon assaulted Islam," he said, referring to caricatures of Muhammad published in a Danish newspaper that set off sometimes violent Muslim protests around the globe.

At the Abdul-Qadir al-Gilani mosque in central Baghdad, Sunni cleric Mahmoud al-Isawi's sermon described the pope's comment as a "Western aggressive attack" that was "clearly showing its hatred toward our Islamic religion."

Shiite cleric Sheik Abdul-Kareem al-Ghazi, in Iraq's second-largest city, Basra, said the pope's comments ran counter to the Christian faith.

"The pope and Vatican proved to be Zionists and that they are far from Christianity, which does not differ from Islam. Both religions call for forgiveness, love and brotherhood," he said in a sermon delivered at the offices of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, where many people gather for religious services.

Al-Ghazi challenged Benedict or any other senior Vatican official to a debate, saying he would be willing to convert to Christianity if the pontiff managed to convince him of his views.

oh wait, that's not good, that's terrifying. i love how they refer to the pope's statements as an "aggressive western attack", as though the goddamn pope is the king of the "west". i didn't vote for a pope. i don't believe in popes. i don't particularly like popes to be honest, don't go associating me with popes, please

[Bob]

i understand (or at least i hope oh god i hope!) that this is all just a failure to communicate, but i wish the pope would just apologize! i mean granted, i haven't given the guy a lot of time, but look at the repercussions this is having, whether he intended for it to happen or not. just apologize, christ, this is no time for pride. steven colbert did it, why can't you? you're the friggin pope!

[D_Raay]

oh, well, at least he's done some good for the region

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/15529506.htm



oh wait, that's not good, that's terrifying. i love how they refer to the pope's statements as an "aggressive western attack", as though the goddamn pope is the king of the "west". i didn't vote for a pope. i don't believe in popes. i don't particularly like popes to be honest, don't go associating me with popes, please
Well we are being lead by some just as frighteningly religious fanatics right now who just happen to be christians like the pope. So their interpretation is apt in their eyes.

[freetibet]

As a proud Roman Catholic I:

1) apologize for my religious leader to actually suggest that there's a link between thousands of dead in various terrorist attacks and the religion of Islam.

2) admit that as a leader of an agressive silly religion with lots of stupid rituals and a non-volunteer Hitlerjugend member B XVI should put on trial in 1946 with Ribbentropp as opposed to

Gunther Grass - a volunteer Waffen-SS member (good choice Gunti, that sounds cool - WAFFEN SS), a Gdansk citizen, but first of all a great* writer, left wing activist and a good person.



*Yeah, right. I tried, but his graphomania sucked.

[monkey]

yea... the pope seems hellbent on making himself the central figure in the apocalypse theyve all dreamed up. too bad that instead of uniting his religion and trying to take rc into a good place, he's taken it back to the crusades.

im not a practicing catholic but this made me so angry and shamed of being catholic at all.

[Lex Diamonds]

He was quoting someone else to try and show Muslims how many of their religious extremists' actions may cause them to be perceived. It wasn't his own sentiments, it was like a worst case scenario sort of thing. Like "hey, look I don't mind you guys but check out what this dude thinks of you!"

[freetibet]

I admit that this quotation must've sounded weird, he should comment it clearly enough. But I don't understand, why any rc should be ashamed. Crusaders did bad things a long while ago and terrorists do worse things now.

[fucktopgirl]

YOU, catholic lovers, should be ashamed of YOUR leader..The pope is a despotic individual that did bashed on purpose the ISLAM RELIGION.

And beware that he did not say it by himself, he got a lots of consultants behind him that suggest to say this statement and for what intention, ONLY god fucking know!

I tough the catholic religion was supposed to be respectfull of others religion!?
What an awesome lesson to learn from his words of "wisdom" :hating somebody because of differents ideology/religion is OK!


Anyway , what is the goal/ purpose of the Pope other then getting old and senile while saying nonsense speech??

Do you , catholic devotes, really look up to him?

[yooooo]

Crusaders did bad things a long while ago and terrorists do worse things now.

what a fucking dumb argument

[freetibet]

Yes, very dumb... of You to say it. What do I have to be ashamed of? That we say muslim terrorists bomb people, not rc?

Pope said that jihad is not a way to spread one's religion. Fucking fact.

And, hey! You all sound like before his speech muslims were just peaceful and loving us neighbours on our Mother Earth.

[Tone Capone]

When DON'T muslim extremist get offended? Right now they are huge hypocrites. They talk shit about every other religion out there but, when anyone does it back, they get all butt hurt and blow something up or shoot a nun.

[Kerrbear]

[QUOTE=fucktopgirl]
I tough the catholic religion was supposed to be respectfull of others religion!?
QUOTE]

I can't believe that anyone is surprised by any level of intolerance or xenophobia from the Catholic church. From the Spanish Inquisition, to the burning of the Huguenots, to their continuing damnation of homosexuals, hasn't the Catholic church been the model for intolerance?
Catholic doctrine may say that the Pope is infallible, but I'm a heathen and say he's just a man, and men say stupid things they don't mean. Smart men apologize, though.

[Tone Capone]

I tough the catholic religion was supposed to be respectfull of others religion!?

I thought that about the Muslim religion was as well (!)

[yooooo]

From the Spanish Inquisition, to the burning of the Huguenots, to their continuing damnation of homosexuals, hasn't the Catholic church been the model for intolerance?

that doesnt count, that was long ago.
personally, i even dont blame germans for being nazis in past.
it was long ago.
things changed.
of course its sad.
who cares.

again: that is a dumb argument

i'll go and play tetris again

[yooooo]

When DON'T muslim extremist get offended? Right now they are huge hypocrites. They talk shit about every other religion out there....

really? never heard of that.

of course they are huge hypocrits, like you said.
but i cant remember hearing them saying "other religions are shit, lol"

[Tone Capone]

really? never heard of that.

of course they are huge hypocrits, like you said.
but i cant remember hearing them saying "other religions are shit, lol"

LOL!!!! :D

[Kerrbear]

*ruffles yooooo's hair*
That's it, kiddo, you run along and play Tetris and let the grownups talk.

[yooooo]

ok mom :(

[fucktopgirl]

I can't believe that anyone is surprised by any level of intolerance or xenophobia from the Catholic church. From the Spanish Inquisition, to the burning of the Huguenots, to their continuing damnation of homosexuals, hasn't the Catholic church been the model for intolerance?

Indeed...heresy was the biggest sin of all! THis is why i always wonder why people would still believe in a doctrine who punished people who tough differently and had a mind of their own instead of following the mass public opinion. I mean BOUddhism never KILL humans to make their philosophy accepted, same for islam. did they?


Catholic doctrine may say that the Pope is infallible, but I'm a heathen and say he's just a man, and men say stupid things they don't mean. Smart men apologize, though.[/QUOTE]

Infallible,hehehe!
I bet he wear fucking diapers and i doubt he can use is little sausage but to tell you the truth i dont even want to know. MAybe Bush help him once in while..

smart men apologize? the pope dont seem to fit that category!

[Tone Capone]

I mean BOUddhism never KILL humans to make their philosophy accepted, same for islam. did they?




IS that a joke???:confused: Are you saying that humans aren't killed in the name of Islam??? Are you freakin kidding me??

[yooooo]

looking at fucktopgirls post, is like looking in a mirror... damn :(

where are you from? mongolia?

[fucktopgirl]

IS that a joke???:confused: Are you saying that humans aren't killed in the name of Islam??? Are you freakin kidding me??


Well ,i am not a super historian but i dont recalled THEM doing crusades/inquisitions and burning people to try to conversed them to their doctrine. I was talking about the insane nature that the catholic church showed in the past/today and the massacres they did to gather as much people as they could in their religion .


NOW people,muslims, killing in the name of islam is totally a different context . They are responding to injustices and denigrations of their beliefs,culture, and their religion is what they are living for , so when to go out there and make themselves exploded in the name of their god is to show the devotion , faith and speak their despair. They dont killed/bothers others humans if they dont wanna accepted ISlam as their religion, they just let them be.

YOu see the difference?

[Tone Capone]

Well ,i am not a super historian but i dont recalled THEM doing crusades/inquisitions and burning people to try to conversed them to their doctrine. I was talking about the insane nature that the catholic church showed in the past/today and the massacres they did to gather as much people as they could in their religion .


hmmm well considering that the Taliban was doing something similar and non-muslims are being persecuted by muslim countries today (including facing execution for converting) I would say that what they are doing is worse. I mean, considering the crusades and all that happened in medievel times when people still thought the world was flat!


NOW people,muslims, killing in the name of islam is totally a different context . They are responding to injustices and denigrations of their beliefs,culture, and their religion is what they are living for , so when to go out there and make themselves exploded in the name of their god is to show the devotion , faith and speak their despair. They dont killed/bothers others humans if they dont wanna accepted ISlam as their religion, they just let them be.
YOu see the difference?

That is the biggest load of crap going around today. You can be shot or blown up for even talking bad about Islam or Muhammad.
And that last part you wrote... where the hell do you get your information. Do you REALLY know what goes on in the Middle East?

[Tone Capone]

"While Muslims gain religious rights in the West, persecution of religious minorities by extreme Islamic elements in some Muslim countries in Asia and the Middle East continues unabated. The 1999 U.S. State Department's Annual Report on International Religious Freedom notes that in Pakistan, for example, "discriminatory legislation has encouraged an atmosphere of religious intolerance."

The report says that Christians "face harassment and intimidation." In Saudi Arabia, "any attempt to convert a Muslim to another faith is subject to criminal prosecution. Public religious worship by any non-Muslim is a criminal offense." In Sudan, "Christians, practitioners of traditional indigenous religions, and Muslims who deviate from the Government's interpretation of Islam are subject to severe limits on religious freedom, including killing, prolonged arbitrary detention or imprisonment, threats, violence, and forced conversion to Islam."

[Tone Capone]

"Muslim Convert to Christianity Butchered

29 July 2003

The body of a Muslim convert to Christianity who went missing in mid-July, has
been returned to his family, slaughtered and cut into four pieces by Islamic
extremists.

The man left his friends and family almost two weeks ago heading into a
mountainous region of the Palestinian Authority area. He took Christian
materials including cassettes, videos and Bibles with him. After approximately
ten days during which his friends and family received no word from him, his body
was returned to them. He had been brutally killed and his body carved into four
pieces as a warning to other converts. He leaves behind a wife and two small
children. The names and further details of those involved are being withheld by
Barnabas Fund for their own safety.

Local Christians in this part of the Holy Land have been involved in supporting
converts from a Muslim background who suffer persecution from Islamic extremists
in the Palestinian Authority areas. Some of them have also been the target of
attacks. Last year one such Christian received a phone call telling him that a
Muslim convert was in a serious condition in hospital; in response he
immediately set off in his car. On the way his vehicle was deliberately driven
off the road by another car. The phone call later proved to be a hoax designed
to lead him into trap. In another attempt on his life this same Christian was
hospitalised. Local Christians working to support converts from Islam report
that Islamic militants in the Palestinian Authority area deliberately target
converts. Hamas in particular reportedly receives funding from Iran
specifically for this purpose.

According to shari’a (Islamic law) any Muslim male who leaves Islam
(apostatises) faces the death penalty. "

[Kerrbear]

Didn't anyone see "Robin Hood" with Kevin Costner? Clearly, Muslims are some bad dudes.

[Tone Capone]

Didn't anyone see "Robin Hood" with Kevin Costner? Clearly, Muslims are some bad dudes.

All Muslims aren't bad (that was a bad joke by the way)

I just hate this whole "awwww poor muslims, let's all get together and feel bad for the Muslims because they have never ever done anything wrong ever and everyone keeps picking on them... awwwww:( "

[Tone Capone]

Saudi Arabia: Fear of Flogging/Possible prisoners of conscience
PUBLIC AI Index: MDE 23/003/2005
27 April 2005

UA 100/05 Fear of Flogging/Possible prisoners of
conscience

SAUDI ARABIA At least 35 men

At least 35 men are to be flogged after they attended a "gay wedding" in Jeddah
in March, according to an Agence France Presse (AFP) report. The men may be
prisoners of conscience, punished solely for their sexual orientation.

Four of the men (two Saudi Arabians, a Jordanian and a Yemeni) were sentenced
by a court in Jeddah to 2000 lashes and two years' imprisonment, and 31 others
to 200 lashes and six months to one year in prison. The report did not give any
names or any further information as to the identity of the 35. The information
was apparently provided by a source close to one of the defendants.

Amnesty International has written to the Minister of the Interior seeking
clarification of the report, expressing concern that the men have apparently
been sentenced to flogging, and appealing for any such sentences to be commuted.

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
Flogging is mandatory in Saudi Arabia for a number of offences, including
sexual offences, and can also be used at the discretion of judges as an
alternative or addition to other punishments. Sentences can range from dozens
to thousands of lashes, and are usually administered 30 or 50 lashes at a time,
at intervals ranging from two weeks to one month.

[yooooo]

i would never ever talk about religion in public..
some people are just too stupid.

[fucktopgirl]

hmmm well considering that the Taliban was doing something similar and non-muslims are being persecuted by muslim countries today (including facing execution for converting) I would say that what they are doing is worse.

What IS worse?
And the talibans did something similar to the inquisition and crusades???


I mean, considering the crusades and all that happened in medieveltimes when people still thought the world was flat!

That is a poor argument and does not justified what they did back then.
They spilled blood over many lands for the purpose of making their god the number one. Every religion has a political purpose as we all know, conquering/expanding territories BUT catholic where killing for heresy man.
Such a open mind and compassionate religion!



That is the biggest load of crap going around today. You can be shot or blown up for even talking bad about Islam or Muhammad.

YOU can be put in jail and be call anti-semite by saying anything against Jews and this in a number of countries in the world!
And be blowing up for saying something bad about ISlam...where did YOU get this information?



And that last part you wrote... where the hell do you get your information. Do you REALLY know what goes on in the Middle East?

I know quite a bit but read about it everytime i can and try to have a peripheral vision of the situation ,why?
What going in the middle east then?
A big party with balloons and a lots of fireworks exploding?

It is true that islam dont convert people to their religion and never did by force. BUt if you are in the religion and act inadequately you will suffer consequences and punishements that are dicted by the qur'an.
Does it make them more evil ?

And what are you trying to prove with yours articles showing how ISlam handled his religion and justice? Yea they dont handle things the same ways as your country but is it worst?

YOu guys have dead penalty(electric chair, lethal injection..) and then tortures in prison happen a lot as we all know ...better?
Your administration is against gay too, what do they do to them in the shadow of the public eye? WE just dont fucking know!

So to not prolong this exchange, i will finished by saying that nowadays Islam are ridiculised on every front on the public place(cartoons,pope speech..) and it is not right and fair.
There is propaganda beeing spilled to molded the general opinion that ISLAM is the bad guy and i dont agree with that.

[Bob]

All Muslims aren't bad (that was a bad joke by the way)

I just hate this whole "awwww poor muslims, let's all get together and feel bad for the Muslims because they have never ever done anything wrong ever and everyone keeps picking on them... awwwww:( "

right, i'm not saying that. i'm saying that given the known fact that muslim extremists tend to blow up (ooh, bad choice of words maybe) over things, perhaps the pope should have exercised a little more caution in using that quote. he probably should have known better, this outcome isn't exactly unanticipated

[DroppinScience]

According to fucktopgirl, any atrocities done in the name of Islam throughout the entire history of the world are perfectly acceptable and excusable. :rolleyes:

[fucktopgirl]

^(y) (!)
right.. you really understand my point!:rolleyes:

[DroppinScience]

^(y) (!)
right.. you really understand my point!:rolleyes:

Admit it, you're a lot more willing to give Islam a pass and more than willing to condemn Christianity when the opportunity presents itself.

I am fully aware of the atrocities done in the name of ALL religions, but come on, call a spade a spade and at least attempt to be even-handed.

What would you say if a prominent Muslim leader quoted an obscure text that more or less said "Catholicism and other forms of Christianity are evil" and outraged the Catholics of the world and then radical Catholics call for the killing of said Muslim leader.

What would you say if a Middle Eastern cartoon blasphemed Jesus and Christians around the world go and burn down mosques and kidnap people in embassies?

What would you be saying if the roles were reversed?

[Documad]

I'd just like to say that if we're talking about ancient history, it seems like the muslim societies could be more tolerant of outsiders than ancient christians. Jews were treated better in old Jerusalem under muslim rule for instance. So if we're talking about the era of the crusades, fuckedupgirl has a point. But if we're talking more modern history, she's wrong.

My understanding is that the violence isn't part of the muslim religion itself, but what bad people do in the name of religion. Similar to what happens when bad people are christians. I also believe that many of islam's problems stem from their women not having a role and the lack of secular education opportunities.

P.S. This particular pope is bad news.

[fucktopgirl]

[QUOTE=DroppinScience]Admit it, you're a lot more willing to give Islam a pass and more than willing to condemn Christianity when the opportunity presents itself.


I can admit that i despised christianity at one extent!


What would you say if a prominent Muslim leader quoted an obscure text that more or less said "Catholicism and other forms of Christianity are evil" and outraged the Catholics of the world and then radical Catholics call for the killing of said Muslim leader.


That the things tho,i dont think that ISlam attack others religion in the way the catholic do.

Btw, did they applied a fatawa for the pope?

What would you say if a Middle Eastern cartoon blasphemed Jesus and Christians around the world go and burn down mosques and kidnap people in embassies?

Hey, we all know they are a bit of a prime blood ..they react impulsively .
I mean we are talking about a culture that chop your hand if you steal...or killed for adultery. SO i am not saying they are not a bit extremist

BUT

would'nt you be pissed if your beliefs and country where constantly under attack(physically and verbally) for so many years? That your ressources beeing stolen by a great tyrannic country?
So i kinda understand a bit their frustration.

What would you be saying if the roles were reversed?

Well, i am not a catholic so i would'nt give a shit!

The truth is that the role will never be reverse, what is happening right now in the middle east is a huge injustice that unfolded right before our very eyes and people still think that the arab world are the erroneous one. But from where I stand i see a culture defending their beliefs by any mean they can.

The truth is that a ethnic cleansing is happening in palestine, lebannon..whenever muslims are.

the truth is that our world is fucked!

[DroppinScience]

You're a French-Canadian, so I take it you more than likely were baptized/raised Catholic but then rejected it?

But anyways, what you're speaking of is a perceived retaliation for what the Western world does to the Islamic world? With that said, doesn't this extremist behavior only play into the hands of people like the Pope? They can just point and go: "SEE! Islam is a dangerous religion. Look how they're acting"?

It just sucks that their retaliations only encourage the stereotypes and beliefs perpetuated by people such as the Pope.

[EN[i]GMA]

Why should the Pope say anything but terrible things about Islam?

According to Christian doctrine all Muslims are infidels, heathens, and are going to spend all eternity in hell as punishment.

The problem isn't that Christians believe that, that Christianity teaches that, the problem is that one of them happened to make it known that he isn't the biggest fan of that religion, that he holds views antithetical to it?

This whole debate is a load of shit.

Of course the Pope is 'intolerant' of Islam. If he weren't, he wouldn't be a Christian; he would be a Muslim.

And all Muslims are 'intolerant' of Christianity to the degree that they do not tolerate it as a correct belief.

How can there be peace between two opposing belief systems, belief systems which, vaguely and explicitly, call for each other's destruction, or at least the eternal damnation of those opposed to the doctrine.

It's blatant hypocrisy.

[EN[i]GMA]

I can admit that i despised christianity at one extent!


I can't help but feel that Islam would be the religion of your hatred if you grew up in Afghanistan under the Taliban.

In fact, I would imagine you would prefer Christianity to that brand of Islam.


That the things tho,i dont think that ISlam attack others religion in the way the catholic do.

Of course they do.

Do Islam say "I'm OK, you're OK"? Is the belief of Islam really "It doesn't matter if you believe in Allah or not."?

Or is it "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet."

You may not realize it, but saying "there is no God but Allah" is very clearly an attack on every other religion.


Btw, did they applied a fatawa for the pope?

Someone may have.

I don't honestly know.


Hey, we all know they are a bit of a prime blood ..they react impulsively .
I mean we are talking about a culture that chop your hand if you steal...or killed for adultery. SO i am not saying they are not a bit extremist

BUT

would'nt you be pissed if your beliefs and country where constantly under attack(physically and verbally) for so many years? That your ressources beeing stolen by a great tyrannic country?
So i kinda understand a bit their frustration.

I understand why they are the way they are.

But I don't excuse it.

I don't think all the Middle East's problems are based in Islam. In fact, I think radical Islam is a result of the conditions.


Well, i am not a catholic so i would'nt give a shit!

The truth is that the role will never be reverse, what is happening right now in the middle east is a huge injustice that unfolded right before our very eyes and people still think that the arab world are the erroneous one. But from where I stand i see a culture defending their beliefs by any mean they can.

The truth is that a ethnic cleansing is happening in palestine, lebannon..whenever muslims are.


And it's happening in Darfur.


the truth is that our world is fucked!

I agree.

[fucktopgirl]

[QUOTE=DroppinScience]You're a French-Canadian, so I take it you more than likely were baptized/raised Catholic but then rejected it?

nan, i have been raised without any religion really but values/good ethics.

[fucktopgirl]

GMA']How can there be peace between two opposing belief systems, belief systems which, vaguely and explicitly, call for each other's destruction, or at least the eternal damnation of those opposed to the doctrine.

indeed... how can they be at peace together?

MAybe they should joined hands and sing lullabys !:D
That would certainly calm them down a bit!

[QueenAdrock]

Well, i am not a catholic so i would'nt give a shit!

But you're also not Muslim, but you give a shit about them. Empathy should not be biased.

[fucktopgirl]

But you're also not Muslim, but you give a shit about them. Empathy should not be biased.


I can choose who i want to be empathic with, no?


Anyway , the pope apologize!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5353208.stm

"He said the medieval text which he quoted did not express in any way his personal opinion, adding the speech was an invitation to respectful dialogue. "

right...

[Bob]

I can choose who i want to be empathic with, no?


Anyway , the pope apologize!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5353208.stm

"He said the medieval text which he quoted did not express in any way his personal opinion, adding the speech was an invitation to respectful dialogue. "

right...

i know can you believe that bullshit what a joke right

[yeahwho]

The Pope could of drawn a cartoon.

So now I suppose they will prove that theirs is a religion of peace — by doing something violent.

Everybody is a loser except those who continue to ship oil around the planet.

Oil is one religion that has physical dividends for the faithful.

[QueenAdrock]

I can choose who i want to be empathic with, no?

I suppose, but it's very biased. And in my opinion, unjustly biased since both groups are equally as responsible for atrocities in the past, so what's the reasoning behind choosing one and not the other?

[Bob]

from http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1743060.htm

Pope Benedict XVI may have apologised for offending sensibilities, but he didn't apologise for connecting the issues of Islam and violence, nor did he step back from the debate. Many Muslims believe the matter is far from closed.

"so we're gonna keep firebombing churches! that'll teach you to call us violent!"

goddamnit you guys

[yeahwho]

The Pope just caved in today and issued an apology which makes him weak, spinelss and ... European.

But not before the Religion of Peace murdered in cold blood a nun who was caring for the sick and poor in Mogadishu.

The fanatics hijacked the religion again.

[Schmeltz]

Mogadishu has hardly been a pinnacle of civilization in recent years.

As much as I don't care for the Pope, I would have expected a more profound reaction from the educated intellectual leaders of the Muslim world. Surely they must be aware that a centuries-dead emperor of a centuries-defunct empire probably espoused a perspective somewhat different from modern-day commentators. The comparison drawn between this incident and the controversy over the Mohammed cartoons is a striking one: why do the leaders of these societies, who should be first in line to create dialogue and understanding between their followers and other cultures, consistently fail to interpret texts in their proper contexts and cry foul at provocations that would be considered routine and harmless in other parts of the world?

It's ironic that we have developed global media that are capable of instantaneously perpetuating images and text across the planet without being able to adequately explain to other people what we mean by what we're saying. Information Age my ass.

[Tone Capone]

The double standard is phenomenal.

What is sad is that you guys are smarter than this. It's almost racist how you look past these terrorist actions like "oh they just don't know any better" almost like "oh they just aren't smart enough to realize what they are doing, let's all feel sorry for them, it's just the way they do things" it's disgusting.

[yeahwho]

The double standard is phenomenal.

What is sad is that you guys are smarter than this. It's almost racist how you look past these terrorist actions like "oh they just don't know any better" almost like "oh they just aren't smart enough to realize what they are doing, let's all feel sorry for them, it's just the way they do things" it's disgusting.

:confused:

What are you saying? Let's see if I can simplify things a little more for you........

It's a bunch of ignorant fucking ragheads who think the Pope dissed their precious fucking prophet. This is why Bush is right to have invaded Iraq and why we need to invade Iran and then Kuwait and then Saudi Arabia. When we kill as many raghead, Koran-reading, cous cous-eating fuckheads, we'll make the survivors man the oil pumps and life will be a lot less complicated for us.

[Tone Capone]

:confused:

What are you saying? Let's see if I can simplify things a little more for you........

It's a bunch of ignorant fucking ragheads who think the Pope dissed their precious fucking prophet. This is why Bush is right to have invaded Iraq and why we need to invade Iran and then Kuwait and then Saudi Arabia. When we kill as many raghead, Koran-reading, cous cous-eating fuckheads, we'll make the survivors man the oil pumps and life will be a lot less complicated for us.

Wow... that was very Fox News of you.

[yeahwho]

Wow... that was very Fox News of you.
Thank you, it's the easiest way to figure things out. (y)

[Tone Capone]

What I am saying is that people who basically look the other way when Muslim extremist committ atrocities are pretty much racist TO middle easterners. The basic argument folks like that have is "It's their way" or "They don't have any other choice" or in more simple words... THEY ARE TOO STUPID TO DO ANYTHING ELSE. Ignorant.

[yeahwho]

I give no one a free pass on violence. What was said and the reaction to what was said is lunacy.

Humanity on this planet has been slapped in the face by people who act as though they are above the rest of the population of earth.

I consider the whole lot of them scum and a threat to life. I have no understanding.

[QueenAdrock]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/18/pope.islam.ap/index.html

Does anyone else see the irony in burning a Pope effigy because the Pope called them violent?

[fucktopgirl]

its a fucking vicious circle!

Provocation occur then after they(example you) point the finger at them saying they are violent.

OK , i say you mother is a ho..how would you react?
kindly thanking me with a large smile?

The pope fucking humiliated their religion and then after he said that it was not to provoked but to have a frank and sincere dialogue..on what really??

Just fucking nonsense and bullshit ..extreme bullshit!

[HAL 9000]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/18/pope.islam.ap/index.html

Does anyone else see the irony in burning a Pope effigy because the Pope called them violent?

I think an inability to spot irony is prerequisite for induction into the extremist/fundamentalist fraternity.

[HAL 9000]

its a fucking vicious circle!

Provocation occur then after they(example you) point the finger at them saying they are violent.

OK , i say you mother is a ho..how would you react?
kindly thanking me with a large smile?

The pope fucking humiliated their religion and then after he said that it was not to provoked but to have a frank and sincere dialogue..on what really??

Just fucking nonsense and bullshit ..extreme bullshit!

If I was mature, I would like to think that I would not respond to your ho insult - I would turn the other cheek to use a relevant expression.

The trouble that most people have with what you are posting is that you seem to assume that the harm is only going in one direction, but it isn't. Christians and Muslims are both guilty of terrible crimes against humanity and both are prone to ridiculous acts of over blown retaliation for the smallest of insults/offences. I feel I should add that many member of both religions are extremely moral and excellent people because it leads me into my favourite quote...

"With or without [religion], you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
S Weinberg

I wonder who wrote the Pope's speech, probably some low level Vatican graduate - probably feeling pretty shitty right now.

[QueenAdrock]

OK , i say you mother is a ho..how would you react?
kindly thanking me with a large smile?

I'd ignore you, because that's what grown-ups do. I wouldn't give a shit about your opinion, because you're not an expert on my mother. I'd realize you were talking out your ass and move on.

[Lyman Zerga]

sometimes hard to believe her age

[fucktopgirl]

yep, i always have people say that i appear younger then i am...can be a good thing sometime!

Anyway, i think you missed the point tho...this reply was to try to proove that when you are being insulted or something close to your heart is, you dont always act with calm.
It can pissed the hell out of you but maybe this was a pretty poor paralel with how the muslim react toward the racists words of the pope!

[mikizee]

HEADLINE:

'POPE CALLS MUSLIMS VIOLENT

MUSLIMS RESPOND BY BEING VIOLENT'

[fucktopgirl]

^yea, and now this prove that muslim are sooooooooo bad , he?

propaganda!

The only thing they have left is what?

they attack their city, culture, ressouces + their religion.

No fucking doubts they react like that, i would sling shot the pope right on the side of the head if i was being insulted like them!

[QueenAdrock]

Anyway, i think you missed the point tho...this reply was to try to proove that when you are being insulted or something close to your heart is, you dont always act with calm.

No you don't, however, to defend someone who is acting so childlike is kind of silly. If you saw one kid say to another "You're a doodyhead," and the other kid start knocking shit over and yelling and screaming and breaking stuff, you wouldn't say "Oh, well, that's a natural reaction." You'd probably pull the kid aside and say, "Hey. You need to learn that if someone says something like that, you stand up for yourself, but you do NOT hit or act violent."

These are basic things you're taught when you're children. That's exactly what their reaction reminds me of, little children. I wouldn't expect anything less from extremist Muslims though.

[DroppinScience]

I like what Stephen Colbert said about Muslims last night...

"They're some of the most touchy 1 billion people you could ever meet." (or along those lines)

:D

[fucktopgirl]

These are basic things you're taught when you're children. That's exactly what their reaction reminds me of, little children. I wouldn't expect anything less from extremist Muslims though.

I think their reaction is equivalent to the damage/humilation they are being submited too.

BUT then again, it just keep the propaganda rolling: that they are extremist fundamentalists, violents and dangerous. That they are the bad guys. Its just keep the spot light right on them.

[Schmeltz]

I think an inability to spot irony is prerequisite for induction into the extremist/fundamentalist fraternity.

This should be on a shirt or a poster or something. A bumper sticker. Or would that be too ironic?

Maybe I'll settle for my new signature, if that's alright.

[Schmeltz]

Ooh, I like how that looks. That's a keeper.

[HAL 9000]

This should be on a shirt or a poster or something. A bumper sticker. Or would that be too ironic?

Maybe I'll settle for my new signature, if that's alright.


Help yourself!

[Pres Zount]

HEADLINE:

'MUSLIMS PISSED OF. AGAIN.'

[freetibet]

Wow!

Fucktopgirl is just like me, only she's an islamophile and I'm islamophobic.

[freetibet]

As far as I know anything about the Pope's speech and stuff (And we've had a lot of this whole case in Polish media):

1) he was at lecture for theologists, speaking to them, not Urbi et Orbi.

2) in that religious dispute he refered to caesar's words. The topic was "Belief and Wisdom (Mind?)". He used them in his lecture or whatever it was called, a QUOTATION.

3) some of arguments said here before - I agree with them.

What did that nun do to them?

Where do You, see all that discrimination, ftg?

1) I assume there are hardly any non-muslims in muslim countries whereas in Europe there's plenty of them.

2) They have their mosques, public worship, schools, chadors (those head-rags).

3) Bible is forbidden in Saudi-Arabia (and other things mentioned in this thread).

4) Were the Londoners who died in July last year attacking the muslim religion? What did they do except for not being muslim (not all of them!) and living it their own, European way, some fucking 3,000 miles from the Middle East ?!

[freetibet]

And their hilarious violent reaction;) Burnt German flag - LMAO!

P.S. Have You noticed how well prepared they are with flags and harassing Western materials? Denmark, now Germany.