View Full Version : Tibetan nun shot dead; other Tibetans feared killed on way to Nepal
Phosphoros
10-06-2006, 12:33 PM
A Tibetan nun in her mid twenties was shot dead by Chinese border patrols and at least one other Tibetan may have been killed while on their way into exile in Nepal on the Nangpa pass five days ago, according to eyewitness reports. Tibetans traveling with the nun were unable to bring her body, with evident wounds from several rounds of bullets, with them because they feared arrest before entering Nepalese territory. There are reports that up to seven more Tibetans may have been killed after the group was fired upon by Chinese armed personnel, but these could not be confirmed. The incident took place on the glaciated Nangpa Pass at 18,753 ft, just a few kilometres west of Mount Cho Oyu, and was witnessed by a number of international mountaineers at advance base camp, who saw Chinese military personnel kneel down, take aim and open fire on the Tibetans, some of whom were children as young as ten. cont... (http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=14135&article=Tibetan+nun+shot+dead%3b+other+Tibetans+fe ared+killed+on+way+to+Nepal&t=1&c=1)
abcdefz
10-06-2006, 12:46 PM
Sad. (n)
baltogrl71
10-16-2006, 11:04 PM
I saw some video today as I was running out the door wtf is wrong with china those people were clearly unarmmed and no threat.
hellojello
10-25-2006, 11:40 AM
I completely see your point, I saw the video footage of the refugees getting shot. It's not right. It's absoloutly wrong.
Furthermore, last year or the year before there was news & video footage about how the Chinese Government was violently forcing (financially) poor Chinese villagers out of their homes people died so they could build their olympic stadiums. People were actually killed for the fucking olympics.
And then there's the 3 Goerges damn.
But why should be punish the largely poverty stricken Chinese peoples for the actions of their non democratically elected and largley corrupt Government? Ie by not buying they're products we're probably putting them out of their jobs and sentencing them to a worse life than they already have.
Doesn't seem right to me.
Pres Zount
10-27-2006, 06:29 AM
But it's more likely that it will get forgotten about.
hellojello
10-27-2006, 09:29 AM
forget about what?
China is scheduled to host the 2008 Olympics in the face of this human rights violation!
This has been going on for years. What's new here is that the incident was recorded for the world to witness the ongoing persecution, subjugation, torture, and slaying of innocent Tibetans.
Do your part by becoming aware of the situation, and being aware of what Chinese products you use in your home or purchase at the store. We don't have to buy Chinese products.
No truer words have been spoken. This happens because we mindlessly allow shady trade agreements with CHina to go unchecked. The best most peaceful way to avert this atrocity is to STOP BUYING CHINESE GOODS. And write you congressperson. Because we feed them with money they have ABSOLUTELY no reason to stop this. Before you buy anything in any store turn it over and see where it was made. 9/10 times it was made in China either by imprisoned monks and nuns whose greatest crime was to refuse to give up buddhism or it the process is being fueled by AMerican money that we blindly give just to get cheap crap. Think before you buy. Tibet has asked america 3 times to help them and in exchange for nikes that cost 99cents to make that we pay $100 for we say no. THis has got to stop. THey don't want us to wage a bomb war on them, they have never asked us to harm anyone in their defense ONLY to create FAIR TRADE and that means holding them accountable for these actions! DONT BY CHINESE GOODS!! THis is the same as you holding that gun to the nun's head. THink about it please.
But why should be punish the largely poverty stricken Chinese peoples for the actions of their non democratically elected and largley corrupt Government? Ie by not buying they're products we're probably putting them out of their jobs and sentencing them to a worse life than they already have.
Doesn't seem right to me.[/QUOTE]
First, it is 10 times more likely that they are using prison labor to manufacture these goods. Second, most of the prisoners in there are there because the Chinese government has tried to take over Tibet and any Buddhist Chinese and gave them a choice-->Renounce Buddhism or go to jail. A buddhist can be a buddhist in jail just as easy as anywhere else but it is harsh and they punish them.
The Chinese making these cheap goods are not doing it out of the kindness of thier hearts and they ARE NOT getting paid living or decent wages. Get real. The corruption inthe Chinese government is overflowing, they are filthy rich off of the broken backs of the poverty stricken. They learned this lesson from us. THe US. That's right. We taught them capitalism means getting what you can no matter who you crush. SO if you want to help them send their government a message that we wont allow this to happen any more until they take care of their own. WE ARE NOT punishing anyone. They have made a choice and in the interest of cheap goods we have given them our approval. People will do this until someone stops them. If we boycott the goods the government will have no money for themselves and that will get their attention. God dammit, it makes me sick. I want to cry but crying isnt gonna help anyone. People are dying so we can have shit. Buddhist monks and nuns who pray all day for peace for people they dont even know. So we can have crap. What the fuck. It is up to us, we have got to save Tibet, I truly believe this is humanitiy's chance to put bullshit aside and make something good out of something horrid, and I believe in the hills of Tibet the answer of how to live peacefully lies. If we let them kill off Tibet we should just as well put a gun to our own heads. We need to help them. We have to.
hellojello
10-28-2006, 09:44 PM
First, it is 10 times more likely that they are using prison labor to manufacture these goods.
Do you have any basis for that claim? I'd be curious to read where it says the majority of Chinese goods come from prison camps and prison labour. I am not trying to be facecious I am honestly interested about this claim.
The Chinese making these cheap goods are not doing it out of the kindness of thier hearts and they ARE NOT getting paid living or decent wages. Get real. The corruption inthe Chinese government is overflowing, they are filthy rich off of the broken backs of the poverty stricken. They learned this lesson from us. THe US. That's right. We taught them capitalism means getting what you can no matter who you crush. SO if you want to help them send their government a message that we wont allow this to happen any more until they take care of their own. WE ARE NOT punishing anyone. They have made a choice and in the interest of cheap goods we have given them our approval. People will do this until someone stops them. If we boycott the goods the government will have no money for themselves and that will get their attention. God dammit, it makes me sick. I want to cry but crying isnt gonna help anyone. People are dying so we can have shit. Buddhist monks and nuns who pray all day for peace for people they dont even know. So we can have crap. What the fuck. It is up to us, we have got to save Tibet, I truly believe this is humanitiy's chance to put bullshit aside and make something good out of something horrid, and I believe in the hills of Tibet the answer of how to live peacefully lies. If we let them kill off Tibet we should just as well put a gun to our own heads. We need to help them. We have to.
Furthermore I am curious to know how the Chinese people made a choice about implementing cheap labour. The majourity of cheap labour and/or products that come out of the third world is not a choice made by the Chinese people or anyone else in the third world, it's a choice made by their Government under the pressure of economic globalisation (which you are right about in saying it's largley led by the US). Economic globalisation forces the third world to reduce trade barriers (tarrifs etc) that protect local industy, float their dollar on the international market (so it ain't worth shit in comparison to the US$) to susposedly make them more 'competitive' on the 'international market' and reduce Government income spent on social services such as health and education (in a nutshell).
It's all part of the structual adjustment policies that are inexplicably tied with international 'aid' that comes from the IMF and the WB.
There's no choice in that, the third world and China (though not so much China anymore but this situation is what led to the way their economy is today) have no option to recieve economic aid from these agencies, they have no other way of surviving on a year to year basis.
Their Governments ARE corrupt. You're right. But what's more corrupt is the guise that the west provides international aid for alturistic reasons.
Do you have any basis for that claim? I'd be curious to read where it says the majority of Chinese goods come from prison camps and prison labour. I am not trying to be facecious I am honestly interested about this claim.
First, I would love to tell you the basis for that claim, but it would take me ten years to outline for you what I have found and where over the last ten years that I have been researching this issue. So much, so many places. So please, you don't have to trust me, you don't even know me, but if you really give a shit go find the information yourself. Begin by searching for news on Tibet and China. Then research anything you can get your hands on about nuns and monks who have escaped. I also studied this in school. Mind you the information is out there but sometimes difficult to get to as the Chinese govt censores all outgoing news. But sometimes you can find good stuff.
Second, if you do care, read everything you can by the Dalai Lama, he outlines all of the atrocities upon his people. It is available at any book store or online. Read his auto-bio, read An OPen Heart. I have been following the trade issues since CLinton was in office and even tho I liked him he did nothing good for Tibet. So please, educate yourself. Now.
But what's more corrupt is the guise that the west provides international aid for alturistic reasons.
As far as this goes--The west does not have an altruistic goal in its body. It has become all about capitalism and if they can make money they care not at whose expense. I am from the west and I am not fooled under any guise, but I chose to go out there and get the knowledge about the wrongs instead of eating up the shit they shovel. I just wish others would do the same.
Pres Zount
11-02-2006, 05:52 AM
I doubt most chinese products come from prison labour. I'd wager that most chinese workers are in manufacturing, and most chinese people aren't in prison.
Funkyfreshgrape
11-02-2006, 05:57 AM
thats sad:(
I doubt most chinese products come from prison labour. I'd wager that most chinese workers are in manufacturing, and most chinese people aren't in prison.
Sorry to be this way but I am not as concerned with CHinese people. It is the Tibetans that are wrongfully imprisoned and they are being used for labor and they are being wrongfully imprisoned. However, if you want to get into the Chinese, how much do you think they make? Do you believe that they are treated fairly? Everyone wants proof of my information, show me proof that I am wrong. I have been researching this for years and if I am wrong then alot of people are wrong. I never said that most Chinese are in prison. But the truth is most are imprisoned by economics and corruption in govenment. They have been bamboozled into believing through much censorship that there is no other way.
But in a wierd way they chose to live that way. Tibet never chose to be occupied by China, they have no choice because it is a buddhist nation and they wont fight in traditional gun toting ways. So when they refuse to fight and refuse to denounce buddhism they go to prison. It is not about what you think anyway. So if you don't want to go find the truth don't sit here misunderstanding the situation to be provocative. Thank you.
One more thing. How do you think it is that we can get things from half way across the world at half or even 1/32 of the price it costs here in america. Is it because it costs less to ship half way around the world then go in to your own city to buy it? No. It is because we have outsourced production for almost everything to the point that it cost twice or more as much to pay people a living wage here to produce the same crap we get from them. Why does it cost so much more, because here it would be absurd to expect someone to work for 50 cents an hour, here we have labor laws and child labor laws and overtime pay and a living wage. But while we have grown as a capitalistic country, China jumped right into it not realizing along the way that to continue to grow you have to allow growth of people. SO that is how they get away with it. Think outside your box. There is more out there than just what "you think".
thanks.
Pres Zount
11-02-2006, 05:08 PM
So it's not prison labour as in "in prison", but prison labour as in "imprisoned economically".
Oh, I see, nice backtrack.
There is both wisenheimer. Tibetans are wrongfully imprisoned everyday. And the Chinese people are economically imprisoned. Are you here to discuss the political atmosphere or to get into a unarmed battle of wits? I would think if you came to this thread you would care. But if you don't they please don't waste your time arguing with me. I do not care about having some stupid back and forth with someone who only comes here to start shit. Believe it or not there are way more important issues than you cutting your sarcastic teeth on me. So either contribute or leave me alone. If you don't believe me that is fine. I really don't care. But stop trying to create bullshit. I am very dedicated to Tibet. I am not here to spread misinformation only to share what I have learned. I am more than willing to view any evidence contrary to what I have found. So show it or shut it.
Pres Zount
11-03-2006, 02:49 PM
Like hellojello said, you need a basis for that claim. The onus is on you, not us.
I saw a purple flying tiger, can you prove that I didn't?
hellojello
11-04-2006, 05:17 AM
Like hellojello said, you need a basis for that claim. The onus is on you, not us.
I saw a purple flying tiger, can you prove that I didn't?
that's exactly what i was thinking except i was thinking more like 'what in 10 years of research and study u can't direct me to one book, one article.' but i knew i'd come off sounding like a smart arse so i didn't bother. you put it so much more eloquently!
ps i didn't bother reading subsequent posts so i have no idea what you're actually referring to...
Pres Zount
11-04-2006, 08:03 AM
I don't care for the discussion, much, I just get riled up when people make up lies and then tell me to leave them alone via threatening PM.
http://www.tibet.com/WhitePaper/white2.html
http://www.tibet.com/NewsRoom/end-occupation.htm
http://sturtevant.com/alex/tibet.htm
http://www.tibet.org/Why/
http://www.friends-of-tibet.org.nz/occu.html
http://www.freetibet.org/info/facts/fact15.html
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=asia&c=china
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0861546.html
http://www.tibet.org/Resources/TSG/Groups/milarepa.html
Did not threaten. Did not ask you to take my word. All I asked was that you get off you lazy ass and look it up. BUt since you'd rather make up lies your self. THreatening PM?? How so? Here you go. Unless you'd rather come and disgrace the memory of a/many dead nuns and monks and Tibetans and Buddhist by spreading your bullshit, take a look for yourself. You shamed this thread by you assinine behaviour. This was about the tragedy of Buddhists dying unnecessarily and you made it about being clever. Let me know how that works out for you. I will get you all as many websites as you need. But I think you'd rather just come here and try to be smart. Well smart yourself all the way buddy. The truth is out there. NO ONE needs to trust me. I never asked anyone one to blindly follow my word. I know more than anyone that the Truth one seeks out on their own holds more weight than even the most convincing Truth from anyone else. SO go. GO get it yourself. Here I have done most of the work for you. What else do you have to say?
www.dalailama.com/
http://www.tibet.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_Lama
http://www.tibet.net/hhdl/eng/
http://www.dalailamafoundation.org/members/en/index.jsp
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,810877,00.html?promoid=googlep
http://www.gluckman.com/DalaiLama.html
almaz.com/nobel/peace/1989a.html
www.dalailama-archives.org
http://www.savetibet.org/news/newsitem.php?id=987
http://www.studentsforafreetibet.org/article.php?id=884
www.tibetjustice.org/materials/govngo/govngo2.html
www.opendemocracy.net/people-china/tibet_3826.jsp
http://www.tibetoffice.org/en/index.php?url_channel_id=8&url_subchannel_id=13&url_publish_channel_id=1876&well_id=2
Also I did mention reading An Open Heart, and The official Biography from the Dalai Lama. I suppose you think he is a liar too? Is this enough? I am going to go find more for you.
Why would you even come to the Milarepa thread to talk shit? You know to some of us adults it is a very serious problem that needs attention so save your ignorant and immature barbs for the other places that arent serious about real shit.
Are you chinese? Are you tibetan? Are you a buddhist? Otherwise I see no reason why you would have to try to pick my information apart, so go waste someone else's time while you grow up.
Obviously I know more than you you if you feel the need to insult me through a private message. If you haven't got the brains or the balls to have a serious discussion without degenerating into petty insults, maybe you are the one who should do the growing up.
You can't make up lies and expect people to not call you out on them. Saying that the majority of chinese goods are manufactured using prison labour is a pretty big call, and just asking us to pretty please trust you on that call is an even bigger ask.
If you make up lies, I will make you look like an idiot.
This is the "threatening PM this person is talking about. I As you can see, he threatened me--to make me look like an idiot when I did a ten second search and was able to find every one of those websites, proving anyone who really cared about the Milarepa fund or Tibet the information is out there. So lets be serious. Do you care about really getting the information? Or is looking clever the most important thing here? Why would you go in to a Buddhist thread to try to make someone 'look like an idiot'? Even if there is contrary information it should be shared with compassion and hope. I am glad I am not this person. I love Tibet and if anyone else out there cares, I urge you to go visit those sites. They can be very infomative. My condolences to the nun and the Tibetans. It is ignorance and arrogance that continues to allow us to let them down. And I for one, am so very sorry for that.
Tibet and China
In the 21st Century Non-violence Vesus State Power
by John Heath
The Chinese occupation of Tibet is one of the world's hot-button issues, but the social and political realities of the situation are more complex than commonly acknowledged and change frequently over time. John Heath's overview lends perspective to this conflict through a calm examination of the situation as it stands, as well as reviewing how it has arrived at the present state of affairs. Heath enquires into the origin of Mao Zedong's influences, rise to power and eventual decision to invade Tibet, and examines Chinese policy towards the country from Mao's time right up to the recent change of administration headed by Hu Jintao. Simultaneously, Heath reports on the various changes Tibetans have faced under Chinese rule, from eroding cultural traditions and ecology to economic development. The second part of the book addresses the contentious human-rights aspect of China's actions in Tibet, and explores the very real, and realistic, question of how best to negotiate with China to achieve a solution acceptable to both parties.
More sites
This is Bob Thurman's page. You might know his daughter Uma from acting but he is one of the most prolific and profound American Buddhist out there:
http://www.bobthurman.com/
http://www.tibethouse.org/
http://www.bobthurman.com/essays.shtml
http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/1997/11/thurman.html
http://cc.purdue.edu/~wtv/tibet/Welcome.html
http://www.tibet.ca/en/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet_Autonomous_Region
This is a website with the Ten Best books about Tibet
http://books.guardian.co.uk/top10s/top10/0,,1229123,00.html
More is on the way.
Books authored by His Holiness the Dalai Lama
Ancient Wisdom, Modern World - Ethics for a New Millennium
This latest book by His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the first major publication in recent years since the best selling autobiography Freedom In Exile, His Holiness calls for a revolution - not a political, an economic, a technical or even a religious revolution, but a spiritual revolution to help us through the moral maze of modern life.
Advice from Buddha Shakyamuni
A brief outline and commentary on the discipline to be observed by a fully ordained Tibetan Buddhist monk.
Aryasura's Aspiration and a Meditation on Compassion
Four texts on compassion: a bodhisattva's aspirational prayer by the Indian poet Aryasura, and its commentary by the second Dalai Lama; plus The Inseparability of the Spiritual Master and Avalokiteshvara and a talk on activating compassion, both by the present Dalai Lama.
Awakening the Mind, Lightening the Heart
A practical instruction book on developing compassion in our daily lives through simple meditations that directly relate to past and present relationships. The Dalai Lama gives a commentary on the classic 14th century Kadampa work Rays of the Sun, Training of the Mind famous for its potency in awakening compassion in the human heart.
Beyond Dogma
Here His Holiness talks simply and movingly about the path to peace and the future of the planet, seeking to show that true enlightenment can only come from within each of us.
Bodh Gaya Interviews
His Holiness the Dalai Lama 1981-85
A collection of interviews with His Holiness on various topics such as politics, Christianity, particle physics, Tantra, emptiness and liberation.
Buddhism of Tibet And the Key to the Middle Way
Translated by Jeffrey Hopkins
A combined volume comprising an introduction to Tibetan Buddhism, a layman's guide to enlightenment and instructions for meditation on emptiness.
Commentary on the 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva
Commentary by the Dalai Lama on the classic text by Thogmed Zangpo, given at Bodh Gaya in 1974.
Cultivating a Daily Meditation
Two discourses in which His Holiness touches upon the essential points of the Dharma and provides a clear and simple method to cultivate a daily practice of meditation. He also explains how we should proceed in the effort to generate both the heart of compassion and the expansive view of emptiness in our daily life.
Dalai Lama at Harvard
Lectures on the Buddhist Path to Peace
A series of lectures given by His Holiness at Harvard University, providing an introduction to Buddhist theory and practice and covering a wide spectrum of important issues.
Dalai Lama's Little Book of Wisdom
This inspirational volume offers encouragement to anyone seeking a more peaceful and liberating way of life. With poignant simplicity the Dalai Lama shares his perspective on such enduring themes as love, religion, justice, human rights, poverty, cultural conflict and protection of the environment.
Dialogues on Universal Responsibility and Education
Drawn from two workshops held in New Delhi between the Dalai Lama and a group of Indian scholars, philosophers, teachers and social reformers. Taking the concept of universal responsibility as their basis the participants discuss ways to bring about humanitarian change in our society, whilst also focusing on education to effect positive change.
Essential Teachings
Instruction on the 37 practices for the cultivation of bodhicitta - the Mind of Enlightenment - and how these practices can be applied, particularly in Western society.
Flash of Lightning in the Dark of Night
His Holiness presents a detailed manual of practical philosophy based on the Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life. He explains and amplifies the text verse by verse, alluding throughout to the experience of daily life and showing how anyone can develop a truly good heart.
Four Noble Truths
Based on talks given at the London Barbican in 1996, this is an essential guide to the fundamental teaching of Buddhism.
Freedom in Exile
The Autobiography of the Dalai Lama of Tibet
An updated autobiography following the award of the Nobel Peace Prize, in which the Dalai Lama talks freely of his life and the tragic story of Tibet, and also discusses contemporary issues.
Gelug/Kagyu Tradition of Mahamudra
Dalai Lama / Berzin A
Mahamudra is a system of meditation that directly addresses the habituated perception of duality, the source of all suffering. The Gelug/Kagyu tradition of Mahamudra laid out in the text presented here was formulated by the First Panchen Lama, using Kagyu-style techniques for recognising the conventional nature of the mind, and Gelug techniques for recognising its deepest nature.
Generous Wisdom
Commentaries on the Jatakamala
A set of four teachings on the Garland of Birth Stories of the Buddha, the main theme of which is the perfection of generosity of the bodhisattvas, but which also includes the perfections of ethics and patience, dependent-arising and karma.
Healing Anger
The Power of Patience from a Buddhist Perspective
Translated by Thupten Jinpa
The Dalai Lama offers many techniques and methods for developing patience that are relevant not only to Buddhists but to everyone seeking to improve their lives. He bases his discussion on the section on Patience from A Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life, one of the best-known Buddhist books on developing the qualities of a Bodhisattva.
Joy of Living and Dying in Peace
Core Teachings of Tibetan Buddhism
From the Library of Tibet series, this book gives essential Buddhist teachings, and the Dalai Lama's own thoughts on achieving a meaninful life & death.
Kindness, Clarity and Insight
Translated by Hopkins J & Napper E
A warm and inspiring collection of talks given by the Dalai Lama in North America, speaking to people everywhere of the importance of kindness, love, and compassion.
Love, Kindness and Universal Responsibility
In a compilation of three previous works, the Dalai Lama here reveals his personal philosophy, based on the concept of universal responsibility and reverence for all living beings.
Meaning of Life from a Buddhist Perspective
Translated & Edited by Jeffrey Hopkins
Teachings on Buddhist philosophy, based on the 'Twelve Links of Dependent Arising' depicted in the famous Buddhist image of the Wheel of Life.
My Land and My People
Memoirs of the Dalai Lama
The dignified and compelling autobiography of H H the 14th Dalai Lama, spiritual and temporal leader of Tibet. A tragic yet deeply in spiring book, the whole vivid and moving story is told with the gentle forgiving spirit of a Buddhist monk. New Edition.
My Tibet
Personal reflections by the Tibetan leader to match the incredibly beautiful photographs of the land he was forced to flee in 1959. With 118 colour illustrations. "My religion is simple, my religion is kindness".
Opening the Mind & Generating a Good Heart
A concise survey of Buddhist training explaining how generating kindness is the core of the Buddha's teaching.
Path to Bliss
A Practical Guide to Stages of Meditation
Translated by Thupten Jinpa
Based on an oral lectures given on Panchen Lobsang Chökyi Gyaltsen's Lam Rim text, Path to Bliss Leading to Omniscience.
Path to Enlightenment
Translated by Glenn H. Mullin
In these extensive isntructions based on the famous Tibetan text, Essence of Refined Gold by the Third Dalai Lama, His Holiness beautifully elucidates the meaning of the Path to Enlightenment through his own direct spiritual advice and personal reflections.
Policy of Kindness
An Anthology of Writings By and About the Dalai Lama
". . . the selections have substance, are beautifully written, and cultivate a rich sense of versatility on themes that range from an intimate look at the life of the Dalai Lama to his thoughts on many topics." - The Book Review
Power of Buddhism
The Dalai Lama speaks on the issues of contemporary life in this important set of dialogues held with esteemed French film writer Jean-Claude Carrière. (Published elsewhere as Violence and Compassion).
Power of Compassion
Many people have asked the Dalai Lama to speak on the current difficulties facing humanity. In these talks given in London he speaks about a wide range of issues, including war in Bosnia, racial hatred, gender and environmental protection. He describes clearly and simply how to live and die well, and how to infuse one's life with wisdom and compassion.
Sleeping, Dreaming and Dying
This book is the account of an historic dialogue between leading Western scientists and the Dalai Lama, in his position of one of the foremost representatives of Buddhism today. Revolving around the three key transitional states of sleep, dreams and death, the conversations recorded here took place at the fourth Mind and Life Conference in Dharamsala, India. Whether the topic is lucid dreaming, near-death experience, or the very structure of consciousness itself, the participants continually surprise with their discoveries of convergences and divergences between their respective traditions.
Transcendent Wisdom
Commentary on the Ninth Chapter of Shantideva's Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way ofLife
From an oral teaching on the complex and profound view of emptiness, positing the ultimate mode of existence of all phenomena.
Union of Bliss and Emptiness
A commentary on the Lama Chöpa guru yoga, explaining the actual practice on the basis of Guhyasamaja, the preliminaries such as self-generation on the basis of Yamantaka and the performing of offerings and so forth according to Heruka. Meant for initiates only.
Universal Responsibility and the Good Heart
A collection of articles and interviews with the present Dalai Lama reflecting his thoughts and activities over the past twenty years.
Violence and Compassion
The Dalai Lama speaks out for the first time on the issues of contemporary life in this important set of dialogues held with esteemed French film writer Jean-Claude Carrière. His Holiness exhibits his characteristic warmth and clear thinking throughout but what is most valuable about these discussions is his ability to cut through to the essence.
Way to Freedom
An essential primer on Tibetan Buddhism, presented in easy-to-understand steps based on the classic Lam Rim, or 'Stages of the Path to Enlightenment' teachings.
World of Tibetan Buddhism
Translated and edited by Thubten Jinpa
Is this enough?
This work consists of three parts: a general introduction and overview of basic theories and practices; a commentary on selected readings from Shantideva's Bodhicaryavatara; and a discussion of tantra.
Bookshop/Publication specialised in Tibetan books
Pajlor Publications
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e-mail: Paljor Publications
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Potala Corporation
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Tel: 001-212-251-0360
Fax: 001-212-779-9245
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Snow Lion
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Tel: 001-607-273-8519
Fax: 001-607-273-8508
e-mail: Snow Lion
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Wisdom Publication Inc
199 Elm Street,
Somerville, MA 02144
USA
Tel: (617) 776-7416 Ext.22
Fax: (617) 776-7841
Email: info@wisdompubs.org
http://www.wisdompubs.org
Dharma Publishing
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Berkeley, CA 94702
USA
Tel: 001-510-548-5407
Fax: 001-510-548-2230
Wisdom Books
25 Stanley Road
Ilford, Essex 1G1 1RW
UK
Tel: 0044-208 553 5020
Fax: 0044-208 553 5122
http://www.wisdombooks.org
Asian Rare Books
New York
has a good stock of Old and Rare Books about Tibet.
http://www.erols.com/arbs/
This site is maintained and updated by The Office of Tibet, the official agency of His Holiness the Dalai Lama in London. This Web page may be linked to any other Web sites. Contents may not be altered.
Last updated: 31-Aug-99
[QUOTE=hellojello]that's exactly what i was thinking except i was thinking more like 'what in 10 years of research and study u can't direct me to one book, one article.' but i knew i'd come off sounding like a smart arse so i didn't bother. you put it so much more eloquently!
Is this enough books or articles? I can probably find more.
Refugee Trauma versus Torture Trauma: A Retrospective Controlled Cohort Study of Tibetan Refugees.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2000/06/15/china587.htm
http://www.jonmd.com/pt/re/jnmd/abstract.00005053-199801000-00005.htm;jsessionid=FSYXJZJYb1N2w1QLTJn7RlHXZ21wH 1k5nNbHqzc2DXP2Cy4L1txd!-1434154485!-949856145!8091!-1
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=_hIqvVuwnv8C&oi=fnd&pg=PP11&sig=qkl7Rl1xrh30Uv9dUQkk7tkkdEw&dq=Tibetans+in+chinese+prisons&prev=http://scholar.google.com/scholar%3Fq%3DTibetans%2Bin%2Bchinese%2Bprisons%26 hl%3Den%26lr%3D
Human Rights in Chinese Foreign Policy
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0305-7410(199409)139%3C622%3AHRICFP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-6
New Ghosts, Old Ghosts: Prison and Labor Reform Camps in China
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=HHwkn9pnjSwC&oi=fnd&pg=PR5&sig=BfZoLsbtdi3F5ZQ5sueIpK3vEAE&dq=Tibetans+in+chinese+prisons&prev=http://scholar.google.com/scholar%3Fq%3DTibetans%2Bin%2Bchinese%2Bprisons%26 hl%3Den%26lr%3D
Suffering the Winds of Lhasa: Politicized Bodies, Human Rights, Cultural Difference, and Humanism in Tibet Vincanne Adams
Medical Anthropology Quarterly, New Series, Vol. 12, No. 1, The Embodiment of Violence (Mar., 1998), pp. 74-102
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0745-5194(199803)2%3A12%3A1%3C74%3ASTWOLP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J
The 1991 Battle for Human Rights in China Robert F. Drinan, Teresa T. Kuo
Human Rights Quarterly, Vol. 14, No. 1 (Feb., 1992), pp. 21-42
doi:10.2307/762550
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0275-0392(199202)14%3A1%3C21%3AT1BFHR%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J
Self and Values: An Interactivist Foundation for Moral Development
RL Campbell, JC Christopher, M Bickhard - Theory & Psychology, 2002 - tap.sagepub.com
... We acknowledge (to take up Kahn’s example) that some people think that it is all
right for Chinese prison guards to rape and torture Tibetan prisoners. ...
This one is the best in my opinion of those listed:
The Autobiography of a Tibetan Monk
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=_qLgVktc-PAC&oi=fnd&pg=PP9&sig=OTAqNejeVW3OrKhmaRTe-sOjl7o&dq=Tibetans+in+chinese+prisons&prev=http://scholar.google.com/scholar%3Fq%3DTibetans%2Bin%2Bchinese%2Bprisons%26 start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
People's Republic of China: The Human Rights Exception
Roberta Cohen
Human Rights Quarterly, Vol. 9, No. 4 (Nov., 1987), pp. 447-549
doi:10.2307/761910
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0275-0392(198711)9%3A4%3C447%3APROCTH%3E2.0.CO%3B2-K
Chinese-Occupied TIBET
http://www.bobbrown.org.au/files/campaigns/extras/Tibet%20Report.pdf
VIOLENCE, DISCRIMINATION AND NEGLECT TOWARDS TIBETAN CHILDREN
http://www.tibetjustice.org/reports/CRC2005.pdf
Tibetans in China
http://www.asylumlaw.org/docs/china/mar99_china_tibetans.pdf
More on the way.
You were right, I feel like a real idiot. hmm. I must be the best liar in the world to have made up all of this. But wait there is more. Since you want to sit and doubt, I will do the leg work. I did this out of respect for the thousands of Tibetans who have died needlessly and ruthlessly in the name of the Chinese government. I am truly sorry if you felt mislead, but as I said, the information is out there for anyone to get. You just have to want it more than feeling clever.
Pres Zount
11-09-2006, 02:54 AM
knock, knock, moron - nobody was dissagreeing with you about china invading tibet, just your claim that most chinese products are manufactured by prison labour - is anybody home?
You've just spent half an hour posting links to the dalai lama on wikipedia - what the hell does that prove?
:confused:
did you take the time to read any of those articles?
you can take a horse to water but you cannot make them drink.
three of those articles are specifically about labour camps the chinese have set up with Tibetan prisoners.
You are a child with whom I will waste no more time with. The information is out there. Why are you even in this thread if all you want to do is call people names. What do I have to gain by making this up? To get famous? Because I want to turn people I don't know against China? There is no way you took the time to read everything out there, so until you decide to find the truth yourself I don't see why you even you bother. You are most certainly just a narrow minded fuck who wants to start shit with no basis of your own. Since I have been following this trade agreement policy (when Clinton was in office, and you were five) I have run into many people who choose not to believe the truth. People who want to sit on their asses and say-hey that's not true prove it to me. Much like the way the world treated the Jews before 6 million were slaughtered. This is true, you can choose not to believe it, but you cannot with your petty insults and ignorance incite me to any more discussion with you after having started you on the path to the Truth. It is out there, but you must go find it. If you dont care to find it then get out of here and go bother someone else.
knock, knock, moron - nobody was dissagreeing with you about china invading tibet, just your claim that most chinese products are manufactured by prison labour - is anybody home?
You've just spent half an hour posting links to the dalai lama on wikipedia - what the hell does that prove?
:confused:
http://www.buyhard.fsnet.co.uk/
http://www.buyhard.fsnet.co.uk/introduction.htm
Visit this website. I mean if you really want to know.
Wouldn't a boycott just hurt ordinary Chinese people?
On the face of it, it would appear that boycotting Chinese products would only hurt the ordinary Chinese worker. However, if you look more closely, you will see that it is the Chinese government that benefits most from increased exports. Take Walmart, for example. There is a notional minimum wage in China of around 30 cents an hour, which is barely enough to subsist on. However Walmart only pays around 13 cents an hour. The Chinese government deliberately turns a blind eye to such low wages. Money is power, and the last thing the Chinese government wants is an empowered workforce; hence the vicious repression of independent trade unions.
It follows that while companies like Walmart pay taxes to the Chinese government, the ordinary Chinese people do not receive any of the benefit. The Chinese government operates a slave-wage economy, and calls it economic growth!
Another thing to remember is that the Chinese people have no political voice. They rely on dissidents like Harry Wu to speak for them, and he has made his opinions very clear. He says: "it is the Chinese government that benefits most from foreign trade and investment. The government needs foreign money and technology to maintain and increase its power and to modernize their system of tyranny." (taken from his testimony of 11th April 2000, before the United States Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation)
There is another very important point. Many Chinese export goods are made by the estimated 8-20million workers in the infamous Laogai forced labour camps, imposing so-called 'reform through labour'. (Harry Wu spent 18 years there, in horrific conditions).
Are you still happy to buy Chinese goods?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can I know if something is made in China?
It can often be extremely difficult to identify goods made in China because, depending on which country you are in, there may be no legal requirement for goods to be labeled with their country of origin. Where this is the case, it will be largely up to you to look for labels, or make inquiries with the shopkeeper. We should point out that such a large proportion of all types of goods are now from China, that unless there is a label saying otherwise, there is probably a 90% chance that the product is Chinese!
Also, do not be fooled by the names or addresses of the distributor/importer which may be printed on labels. These often give a misleading impression that the product is made in your own country. Unless the label specifically uses the words 'made in', the address means nothing.
Thirdly, a product may say 'Made in USA', or 'Made in the EC', or some-such. This may only mean that the product was ASSEMBLED in that area, but constructed from CHINESE COMPONENTS! The uppers of Ecco shoes, for example, are made in China. A similar situation exists with computers and other electronic equipment. Again, it will largely be up to you to make consciencious inquires with the store manager (please tell us about the results of any inquires you make, and we will publish them on our 'Sources of non-Chinese goods' page).
A WORD OF CAUTION: Sometimes goods are labeled 'Made in Macau', or 'Made in Hong Kong'. Remember, these are Chinese colonies!
We can help!
If you are having difficulty finding a non-Chinese version of the article you require, please contact us. We will put out an anonymous request for help to other Buyhard supporters in your area!
Also here is a list of Monasteries that I have visited where I have spoken with nuns who have witnessed and relayed to me all that I have said. I encourage you to call if you want more information.
Berkeley Buddhist Monastery
2304 McKinley Ave
Berkeley, CA 94703
Tel. 510.848.3440
Fax 510.548.4551
Sitagu Buddhist Vihara
9001 Honeycomb Dr.
Austin, TX 78737
512-301-3968
Fo Guang Shan Hsiang Yun Temple
6720 N Capital of Texas Highway Austin, TX 78731
Tel: (512)346-6789
Pres Zount
11-09-2006, 08:51 AM
Yes I read some of your links, fool, they talk about the mistreatment of tibetans, and tibetans being used as cheap labour - nothing that backs your misguided claim that "it is 10 times more likely that they are using prison labor to manufacture these goods" (in relation to cheap chinese products).
There are 1billion people in China, And you are saying that the majority of the workforce is in prison?! Drowning me in links doesn't prove that.
China continues to blatantly ignore international standards on labour and human rights.
excerpt from article on report presented by the International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU) to the International Labour Organization (a UN body), 2nd June 2002 (see full article at http://www.icftu.org/displaydocument.asp?Index=991215395&Language=EN )
"The first part (of the report) brings updated information on 15 cases submitted by the ICFTU in previous years. It concerns prisoners whose release has long been demanded by the ILO. They include Zhang Shanguang, a veteran labour detainee, who was repeatedly kicked and punched by prison guards after he organised a petition against torture at the Hunan Provincial Prison no.1, an electrical machinery factory in Yunagjiang City. He suffers from tuberculosis and heart disease, but is forced to work in shackles and to undertake the hardest work. Another case is that of Yao Guisheng, a member of the 1989-era Changsha Workers’ Autonomous Federation, who was sentenced to 15 years. Regularly beaten, forced to wear shackles, he has become mentally ill, though the government denied any ill-treatment when questioned by the UN’s Special Rapporteur on Torture, in 1994."
Other reports from International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU):
Products Worldwide Made by Falun Gong Slave Labor
Labor Camps Reduce Production Costs to Shore up Chinese Exports
(3/31/2004 3:24)
original article at http://www.faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=8499
Mr. Shenli Lin, with his wife, shortly after his release from a Chinese Labor Camp where he says he was forced to make soccer balls that are found in Canadian sports stores.
NEW YORK (FDI) – Mr. Wang Jiangping is handicapped and can’t knit as fast as the others. It’s almost 2:00 a.m. and the Division Six prisoners have been working since dawn. They have to meet the deadline. His fellow Falun Gong practitioners nod off only to be wakened by guards stabbing them with scissors. Mr. Wang is exhausted.
The guards throw bricks at his chest. The Changji Labor Camp has to meet Tianshan Wooltex’s quota of Kashmir sweaters, or the guards won’t get their bonus. The Chinese “reform through labor” camps have become privatized. They are small enterprises that sign contracts with big companies and export products to overseas shopping malls.
It is a place where torturers get rich, and where Falun Gong practitioners slave to pay for the purchase of the electric batons that will shock them if they slow down.
These are places where persecution drives profit.
These are places where sleep and food deprivation, filth, stench, beatings, heat, cold, and toxic odors are daily routines.
These places are where products for export are made by the slave labor of prisoners of conscience: doctors, teachers and students abducted from their homes for practicing Falun Gong.
China’s Hidden Slaves
Xinjiang’s Tianshan Wooltex is able to use free labor to gain a bigger share of the competitive international market. Located deep in China’s hidden Western region, the company began allocating contracts to labor camps and prisons in 1990.
The supply of free labor increased dramatically after 1999, when Jiang Zemin’s persecution campaign administratively placed hundreds of thousands of Falun Gong practitioners in labor camps.
In addition to the Changji camp, Wooltex also owns workshops in Wulabo Labor Camp, Xinjiang Women's Labor Camp, No. 3 Prison of Xinjiang Province and the No. 5 Prison.
According to a source from the Xinjiang Autonomous Region, Wooltex exports 200,000-280,000 products to Banana Republic every year. The source says Wooltex also exports its products to many other clothing companies, such as Neiman Marcus, Holt Renfrew, and French Connection.
The revenue from the sales of these sweaters abroad reportedly allows the labor camps to construct new office buildings, workshops, and confinement rooms, as well as televisions and VCDs for the guards.
The revenue is also used for purchasing electric batons, handcuffs and other tools to torture practitioners with and, in turn, try to keep up production.
According to one testimony, when seeing prisoners fall asleep while working, the guards shock them with electric batons and order the head of the workshop, also an inmate, to hit them with bricks and wooden clubs. If a detainee fails to complete his assigned work, the guard will cuff him to a heating pipe, strip him naked and shock his neck, armpits, abdomen, private areas, mouth and ears with electric batons. His detention terms will also be extended.
In March 2002, another Xinjiang company, Tebian Electric Corporation (TBEA), also completed a contract for the creation of a production unit with the Changji camp. Since then, practitioners such as Ge Lijun, Nu Erlan, Wang Xiu, and others have been forced to produce for the company while in detention.
Yet, TBEA receives recommendations from the UK Accreditation Service, the U.S. Quality and Environmental Professional Safety, the International High Pressure industries, as well as Italian companies. Moreover, TBEA products are sold in Canada, Australia, Malaysia, India, Singapore, and twenty other countries and regions.
According to the Xinjiang source, a big show is put on for inspectors. Normally, the prisoners are only given cabbage soup, which is just enough to sustain their lives. However, “during an inspection or visit, the labor camp will pretend to serve chicken and beef to fool the visitors. After the inspectors or visitors leave, the food will be taken away.”
Soiled
Falun Gong practitioners in Beijing’s Tuanhe Labor Camp stuff chopsticks into paper wrappers labeled “Sanitized for Your Safety.” They haven’t washed their hands for days.
There is no water.
Dozens of prisoners are crammed together in a tiny room where they sleep, eat, go to the bathroom and pack chopsticks. Some of the chopsticks fall on the floor and are stepped on. Others fall into the toilet basin.
Not a single stick can be thrown away, so they are picked up and stuffed in wrappers just the same, ready to be sold to restaurants in China and abroad.
Practitioners squat on the floor for 18 hours a day stuffing up to 10,000 pairs of chopsticks each. The elderly practitioners like Mr. Dao Wanhui can’t keep up, so they are allowed only 3 hours of sleep.
According to witnesses, practitioners in these camps are forced to work in unbearable heat. Overworked and with little food, water, or sleep many exhibit symptoms of hypertension and heart disease, and their entire bodies twitch.
In the Tianjin Shuangkou Labor Camp 90% of the prisoners have scabies. Puss oozes out from underneath their fingernails and trickles onto the bamboo BBQ skewers and food products.
Made in China
Mr. Lin Shenli, returned to his wife in Montreal in February 2002 after being detained in China for over two years for appealing for Falun Gong in Beijing in December 1999.
During his detention in Dafeng Labor Camp in Jiangsu Province, Mr. Lin was forced to make soccer balls that he later identified in a large sports equipment store in Canada.
The directors of the Jiamusi Labor Camp in Heilongjiang Province force the female prisoners to work extended overtime in order to meet outlandish daily production quotas.
Due to being overworked, eyewitnesses say one of the practitioners, Ms. Shi Jing, became pale and collapsed on the worktable. She was revived and forced to continue working.
This labor camp further widens its profit margin by using cheap glue for cell phone cases.
The guards complained about the glue’s strong odor. After lab revealed the toxin levels in the materials used were well beyond the industry standards and could cause cancer, the guards began wearing large facemasks. They dare not enter the production area while practitioners are working.
Since mid-July 2001, when Liaoning Province’s Longshan Labor Camp received its first order for wax-processing products, Falun Gong practitioners and other inmates have been forced to produce wax candles in various colors. The wax is then exported with a wide profit margin for the labor camp.
The wax gives off a strong toxic odor, causing many practitioners to look pale, become dizzy and lose their appetite.
The glue used to seal the boxes is also toxic. Since practitioners have to use their fingers to press and seal them. Their fingers get stuck together, and the skin peels off and gets glued to the boxes.
In the Longshan Labor Camp, about 100 people are forced to do this work on a daily basis, finishing 80 to 90 boxes a day.
During the Western holiday season the speed is accelerated to the point of near madness, as the Longshan camp prisoners also assemble festive decorations such as snowmen and snowflakes.
Lanzhou City’s Dashaping Detention Center forces inmates, including Falun Gong practitioners, to slave for the Zhenglin Melon Seeds Corporation, which exports food products to more than 30 countries. The seeds get covered with blood and puss as the prisoners work in a squatting position all day long, often suffering from frostbite, swollen lips and cracked fingernails.
Henan Province Shibalihe and Xuchang labor camps have been buying Falun Gong practitioners for 800 Yuan as slave labor for Henan Rebecca Hair, China’s biggest hair product company. Their products are sold worldwide under brand names such as Shake-N-Go and Royal Imex, Inc. Ms. Zhang Yali, an accountant in her thirties, and at least two other Falun Gong practitioners have been tortured to death in these camps.
Products made by Falun Gong practitioners in other labor camp that are often exported include: moon cake boxes, dishwashing products, popsicle sticks, coffee straws, hand made wool coats, buttons, bedding products, plastic cement packages, fake eyelashes, embroidered products, hand knitted hats, dry flowers, plastic flowers, necklaces, and other handcrafts.
Sam Lu ’s Personal Experience: Why China’s Products so Cheap
I used to be a graduate student in Georgia State University in 1996. I ’d like to share my personal experience to let people know why some products from china are so cheap.
Before I returned to USA in Feb. 2001, I worked as a tax auditor in china for 9 years. In June 7 ,2000, I was arrested in china only because I handed in a letter at the State Petition Bureau in Beijing to express my opinion about Falun Gong which is a traditional exercise based on “truthfulness –compassion –forbearance” and is persecuted in China. I was put in a jail in Guangdong Province for almost two months.
Here I will not mention how the Chinese government persecuted family church members, Tibet Monks and Falun Gong practitioners .I only want to let you know how some products from china are made and why they are so cheap.
In prison, I were forced to work on export products such as toys and shopping bags without pay .I still remember one of the shipping bags were printed with “National Gallery of Art (# #)”
The cell is only about 300 sq. feet with about 20 prisoners and one toilet inside. They slept and worked in the cell.
Sometimes we were forced to work to 2:00 in the morning to catch up with the schedule. They only provided two meals a day (only once a week you have meat in your food) . In other words, being hungry, you still need to work more than 15 hours per day.
The police used wire whip to beat you if you did not do a good job or you can not catch up with the schedule.
In the desperate time in prison, I was always wondering who gave them the business and who help them to abuse us.
Now the same kind tragedy is happening to my wife .she was sentenced to forced labor camp for three years without trial without lawyer only because she passed out flyers in street to clarify to the Truth of Falun Gong. She has already stayed there for more than 34 months.
In my wife’s letter to my parents, she mentioned that she was forced to work for embroidery exports. This tough job, malnutrition and torture make my wife almost lose her eyesight.
Only in that single female labor camp where my wife stays now, approximate 3000 female Falun Gong practitioners has once been detained there and forced to work for export business.
According human rights organization, there are more than 100,000 Falun Gong practitioners detained in China’s Forced Labor Camps .How many people other than Falun Gong practitioners are detained in forced labor camps and prisons and forced to work without pay for china’s export business.who knows? Sam Lu
Boycott products of Chinese forced labour
original article at http://www.globalideasbank.org/site/bank/idea.php?ideaId=855
The Chinese Gulag prison camps contains a greater population than that of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Manchester and Birmingham put together. The goods produced by these camps are illegally exported, compete unfairly with goods elsewhere, and sustain the Chinese economy. The following is summarised from 'Unlock the Laogaidui - The forced labour system in the People's Republic of China: Victims, methods, practices, and its impact worldwide' by Jon Dobinson and Glenn Calderwood and the International Society for Human Rights (ISHR - British Section, 27 Old Gloucester Street, London, WC1N 3XX).
Forced labour was first instituted throughout China after the communists took power in 1949, and the system is based on the Soviet Union's forced labour codes drawn up in 1933 - with an emphasis on work as a means of re-education.
All Re-education Through Labour prisoners are victims of a significant violation of their human rights - they have been sent to prison without trial by local party officials. Local communist parties in China have the power to send anyone in their area to prison for up to three years if they so choose purely by making an administrative decision - the sentence can subsequently be extended indefinitely.
Another category, Forced Job Placement prisoners, are also victims of an iniquitous system. These are prisoners who have completed their jail terms in full, but must continue to carry out forced labour as though they were still serving a sentence. They are usually paid a wage, but this is invariably less than half the amount they could expect if they were not confined in the 'jiuye' system. Chinese prisoners dread the possibility of jiuye. Their feelings are summed up in the prisoners' saying 'There is an end to laogai; jiuye is forever.' Those condemned to jiuye are nominally free citizens once more, but in practice are condemned to live and work in a laogaidui under constant guard by the public security police. In all other respects, they experience the same regime as any other prisoner. Between 80% and 90% of prisoners were subjected to forced job placement up till 1980 according to a government statement in 1984. This percentage then decreased sharply but has since risen again with government efforts to increase profits from its captive workforce.
Of those prisoners who do benefit from a trial in a court, a significant number are prisoners of conscience. Sentences are routinely decided before trials take place and many are sentenced for their political or religious beliefs. In 1983, an internal document from the Public Security Ministry stated 'Of those currently detained, counter-revolutionaries comprise just under 10%.' International Labour Organisation Convention 105 prohibits the use of forced labour to punish people for their political views.
The number of prisoners in the laogaidui excluding jiuye prisoners is at least 10 million and probably nearer 15 million. The ISHR believes it is safe to assume a total laogaidui population of 20 million prisoners. The Peoples' Republic of China claim a total prisoner population of 1.1 million, but its own arrest figures make this implausible. If the state has found it necessary to arrest you, the presumption is that you must be guilty. The same belief leads Chinese courts to punish those who attempt to plead not guilty for implying that the state is wrong. To show prison officials that they have truly reformed, prisoners are expected to inform on each other. The system dictates that they must devise false accusations if they can find nothing else to report - those who do not inform are regarded as rebels and punished accordingly, often by the use of torture.
In place of rewards, camp inmates are made to work by threats. These range from beatings and other forms of torture, to food deprivation and imprisonment in punishment cells. There is no excuse for failure to make quota - the sick can have their food cut off completely under a 'no work, no food' policy. This long-standing rule of the forced labour was restated in a White Paper on Criminal Reform, published on 11th August 1992. Another measure, solitary confinement, means being shut into a cell as little as a metre square for long periods, sometimes days, without food, light, heat, sanitation, or water. Prisoners emerging after this treatment are often unable to walk unsupported.
The 'strict regime' unit
At Longxi prison, there is also a 'strict regime' unit, for prisoners for whom solitary confinement is not sufficient punishment. Here prisoners are forced to sit motionless for ten hours every day on a tiny stool just six inches high, which is in turn on a raised platform about 14 inches square. The ordeal is agonising; prisoners must look straight at the wall in front, both feet must be kept flat on the floor, the back must be completely straight, and the hands kept in the lap. Any movement is punished by blows administered by a guard with an iron rod. All camp guards carry a large battery-powered truncheon capable of giving a 50,000 volt shock which is used on prisoners causing severe pain and temporary paralysis. During torture, these batons are applied to the most sensitive parts of the body, such as the nipples or genitals. Missing quotas are a common reason for torture.
Another common form of torture is to restrain prisoners for long periods in positions which give rise to excruciating pain. For example, Harry Wu has said that while he was at the huge Tuanhe Farm prison camp, guards tied prisoners up by their thumbs and hung them from the rafters. The ultimate sanction is the camps is death. Guards are able to kill prisoners out of hand without fear of action being taken against them. Certain trusty - non-political - prisoners are also permitted and even encouraged to attack the others. These assaults can result in unconsciousness and even death.
Religious persecution in the laogaidui is particularly severe in Tibet, since Tibetan Buddhism is closely associated with opposition to Chinese rule. There are thousands of prisoners of conscience, including many Buddhists monks and nuns, who are subject to continuing brutality if they refuse to renounce their beliefs. The regime in Tibetan camps is exceptionally harsh and new techniques of punishment and torture are tested out in Tibet before being introduced elsewhere.
'An electric cattle-prod was forced down his throat'
Palden Gyatso is a monk who has spent 24 years in the laogaidui for refusing to accept the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Imprisoned in Tibet's Drapchi camp, he was frequently beaten with electric batons. On one occasion in 1987, an electric cattle-prod was forced down his throat when he refused to declare that Tibet would never be an independent nation again. He passed out from the pain and was unable to eat or drink for a long time afterwards. There is corresponding religious persecution in the predominantly Muslim provinces of Qinghai and Xinjiang.
Covering up traces
To conceal the origin of forced labour produce, each camp has 2 names - a prison name and a production unit name. Many factories do not export directly, but through China's state-run trading system, so that their produce cannot be traced back to the labour camps. Certain products are particularly suspect. China is the world's third largest tea exporter and one third of all tea produced in China is grown in prison farms. Shoes are a second category and China has a massive share of the world market. Western companies are investing increasingly heavily in ventures inside the People's Republic, although few are willing to admit to using prison labour. In 1986 Remy Martin's Dynasty Wine was exposed as resulting from forced labour. The company now relies on the word of local Chinese authorities that prisoners are no longer used, but Prof. Harry Wu, who was incarcerated in the camp that made the wine, warns that Forced Job Placement labourers may now be picking the grapes instead. This cheap 'non-convict' labour is now being marketed to potential Western investors. There is overwhelming evidence to suggest that the more demand there is for Forced Job Placement workers, the more prisoners the Chinese state will transfer into Forced Job Placement after their sentences are completed. Every Western company that uses these workers is actively encouraging the continuing growth of this appalling system.
Hong Kong is the gateway through which many forced labour goods pass to the West. Indeed, it is the biggest market for what is perhaps the most horrific of all trades sustained by the laogaidui organs for transplant from laogai prisoners are sold in Hong Kong. Tissue samples are taken from prisoners due for execution, matched in China or Hong Kong, and the organs shipped out after the execution has taken place. There are even unconfirmed reports that, on at least one occasion, the corneas were taken for transplant from a prisoner's eyes while the prisoner was still alive.
'If the world continues to support this system by buying its exports, it will create a monster sustained by the slave labour'Forced labour has enabled economic success without the need for political liberalisation. If the world continues to support this system by buying its exports, it will create a monster - a country of enormous wealth and power, which is sustained by the slave labour of millions of its citizens. There are laws in Britain against the sale of forced labour produce but these laws are not enforced. As such products originate from a system which is expressly designed to shroud the origins of labour camp products in secrecy, the ISHR advises consumers not to buy any product from China at present. Unless effective action is taken now China will set an example for others to follow and the most deadly forced labour export could be the forced labour system itself - perhaps being introduced into Hong Kong in 1997.
Political prisoner Liu Gang, mentioned above, is one of the thousand well-documented cases of those arrested for political or religious activity featured in the excellent 630 page directory 'Detained in China and Tibet' (published in 1994 by Asia Watch, 90 Borough High St, London SE1 1LL, tel 020 7 378 8008; fax 020 7 378 8029, ISBN 1 56432 105 3). A typical entry reads, in part:
Lobsang Tenzin, an 84 year old Tibetan prisoner, had handed then US Ambassador to China, James Lilley, a letter about torture and ill-treatment in the prison. He was among twenty who were harshly disciplined for this protest. He was placed in solitary confinement and reportedly was beaten by PLA soldiers until he was bleeding from the mouth and ears. Reports have expressed grave alarm over the state of his health.
Americans Fund Slave Labor
Wes Vernon, NewsMax.com
Thursday, Jan. 9, 2003
WASHINGTON – Americans during the past Christmas season shelled out millions for merchandise made by slave labor. It was “the season to be merry,” as Americans unwittingly snapped up bargains on the backs of prisoners whose only crime was to question the authority of their communist masters. Often they were beaten and literally worked to death without adequate food or health care.
Chinese dissident Harry Wu has exposed the goings-on behind the “Bamboo Curtain” in the book “Troublemaker,” published by NewsMax.com.
It is against U.S. law to sell goods made by slave labor. Wu shows how the Chinese dictatorship hides the fact that slave labor makes much of what you buy.
It’s that “Made in China” label you see on sweaters, hardware, toys or whatever at your neighborhood shopping mall. At least at the mall, the shopper can look for the label and decide whether to buy. What frustrates some shoppers is that it’s often difficult if not impossible to find anything they want that was not made in China by slave labor. And it’s getting worse. The author cites official reports showing that China’s exports to the United States in 1985 were $3.8 billion. By 1994, China was exporting $31 billion to America, while the U.S. was selling only $9 billion in goods and business to China.
That money is aiding China in its military buildup to crush the United States. The plot has been fully documented in the book “Unrestricted Warfare: China’s Plan to Destroy America,” also available from NewsMax. That book is the Chinese army's secret strategy, translated from the original Chinese documents, written by a top army official.
Wu compares the Chinese slave camps to the Nazi concentration camps (more on that in a future report), all to produce goods for the American market. The communist regime in Beijing is using the profits from American shoppers to build the military machine to destroy the freest society on Earth — a prosperous society enjoyed by those same American consumers.
The authorities have names for the stages in the slave camps. Harry Wu went through three stages, first for 19 years and then a second time when he risked his life to go back to China so he and his associates could document (often through film smuggled out of China) the stomach-turning conditions to which the Chinese have subjected their slave laborers.
1. Reform through labor (laogai).
2. Re-education through labor (laojiao).
3. Forced labor placement (jiuye).
Wu calls the entire system “laogai.” He estimates 50 million prisoners have been sent to the system since the communists grabbed power in China in 1949.
Laogai – the phrase burns Wu’s soul, makes him crazy, makes him “want to grab Americans and Europeans and Australians and Japanese by the shirt and scream, ‘Don’t you know what’s going on over there?’ I want the word ‘laogi’ to be known all over the world in the same way that ‘gulag’ has become synonymous with the horrors of Stalin’s prison system.”
Wu witnessed two Public Security officers beating a prisoner with a construction beam. The rumble of mine cars drowned his screams of pain. “In the dark pits,” he writes, “the dust billowed from the face of the mine, where men cut the coal. The floor of the mine was wet, with an evil odor. The prisoners bent forward, knowing they would have to work for twelve hours, until they had achieved their daily quota.”
What is the Laogai?
The Laogai is the vast labor reform system in the People's Republic of China. The Laogai was created by the Chinese Communist Party under Mao Zedong, yet it still serves the one-party dictatorship as the primary instrument for detaining political dissidents and penal criminals. The two major aims of the Laogai are to use all prisoners as a source of cheap labor for the communist regime and to "reform criminals" through hard labor and compulsory political indoctrination. According to the official definition of the Laogai system, there are six main components.
· Reform Through Labor Detachments (Laogai or laodong gaizao dui)
According to original Chinese Criminal Law Codes, these facilities are to house criminals who have received formal conviction and sentencing in a Chinese court.
· Prisons (Jianyu)
Serving the same function as Reform Through Labor Detachments, some facilities to house formally sentenced criminals are called “prisons.” Conditions are the same in both types of facilities regardless of the name.
· Reeducation Through Labor Facilities (laojiao or laodong jiaoyang suo)
House prisoners who receive “administrative discipline” and are sentenced for up to three years by Chinese police or other security officials. These individuals have received no charges or formal court hearing.
· Detention Centers (Kanshou suo)
Include convicts who receive trial and are formally sentenced to shorter terms, individuals who are awaiting trial, and those formally sentenced to death who are awaiting execution.
· Juvenile Offender Facilities (Shaoguan suo)
House adolescent convicts or reeducation through labor detainees.
· Forced Job Placement Personnel (liuchang jiuye renyuan)
These facilities are for individuals who have served out their original sentences but they are determined “not completely reformed.” Therefore, they are required to remain on the same facility, facing the same conditions and performing the same job they performed as criminals.
How many people are in the Laogai?
The precise population and the number of camps in the Laogai are considered state secrets, so it is impossible to know with certainty how many inmates are imprisoned in the Laogai or how many camps exist. Additionally, camps often close or change their location depending on economic benefits, making it more difficult to track the number of camps inside China. The Laogai Research Foundation has documented over 1,000 Laogai camps in China. The exact numbers of prisoners in any particular camp is constantly changing according to varying shifts in the political climate.
Counting those imprisoned in five of the six categories listed above (the LRF does not count those in detention centers, as that number the most variable and difficult to ascertain), the Laogai Research Foundation estimates that the Laogai population is between 4 to 6 million prisoners.
The LRF estimates that since the inception of the Laogai, between 40 to 50 million people have been imprisoned. Almost everyone in China is related to someone or has known someone who has been forced to serve a lengthy sentence in the confines of the Laogai. Is this enough for you? Is it enough that this many have been imprisoned in labor camps making you cheap goods? Or do you need a greater percentage of suffering for you to believe?
How is the Laogai different from other prison systems?
· Difference in nature and in purpose
Due to increasing international attention towards the abuses and human rights violations of the Laogai, the Chinese Communist Party has attempted to create the impression that the Laogai is simply a prison system for detaining, punishing, and reforming convicted criminals. It was for this reason that according to China’s most recent criminal reform law in 1994, the term “Laogai,” (meaning reform through labor), was officially changed to “Jianyu,” (meaning prison). However, contrary to CCP propaganda, the essential nature of the Chinese Communists’ Laogai system is different than that of prison systems in other countries. Its purpose is fundamentally different in that the Laogai does not exist simply to punish criminals in accordance with the law, but also to further strengthen the rule of the Communist Party by suppressing any signs of dissent among the Chinese people and attempting to “reform” inmates into productive, socialist citizens. The Laogai functions as an integral part of the Chinese economy, providing an endless source of cost-free labor.
· Difference in conditions: human rights abuses in the Laogai
The Laogai is the source of many of China’s most serious human rights abuses.
· Political imprisonment
As a tool of political repression, the Laogai serves to silence all voices of political dissent throughout China. Inside China’s Laogai, unknown numbers of Chinese dissidents have suffered for their political opinions and their religious beliefs. As a matter of policy, the Chinese Communist Party seeks to single out and eliminate all “counterrevolutionary elements,” or, in most recent parlance, those who “endanger state security.” This includes anyone who in word or deed opposes or is believed to oppose the Communist Party. In recent years, as criticism of China’s imprisonment of political dissidents mounts, Chinese leaders have sought to appease the international community through fewer arrests for “counterrevolutionary crimes.” In China today, most political prisoners are arrested for crimes such as “subverting state power,” “stealing state secrets,” “hooliganism,” or “protesting without a permit.” This has made it more difficult for the international community to discern the exact numbers of political prisoners held in Chinese prisons, but it has in no way altered the pattern of political repression perpetuated through political imprisonment in the Laogai.
· Torture
Although Chinese law forbids torture and the use of torture to extract confessions, the practice remains widespread in the Laogai. Due to systematic failure of Chinese authorities to enforce laws against torture, there is little to deter those who inflict torture upon inmates of the Laogai. Confessions extracted through torture are routinely used to convict individuals in court. Forms of torture that are documented to occur commonly in Chinese prisons include: the use of electric batons, beating with fists and clubs, the use of handcuffs and leg irons in ways that cause intense pain, suspension by the arms, deprivation of food or sleep and solitary confinement.
· Administrative detention
Anyone in China can be held for up to three years in Reeducation (Laojiao) Camps with no trial or sentencing procedure of any kind. All that is necessary is the directive of any official in China’s Public Security Bureau.
The component of “Jiuye,” or forced job placement constitutes another form of administrative detention perpetuated within the Laogai. Jiuye allows officials to retain inmates within the Laogai system after the expiration of their term if they are determined to be “not yet fully reformed.” This often places individuals within an unending cycle of detention and degrading punishment.
· Forced labor
All prisoners in the Laogai are forced to labor. Labor conditions vary from region to region and camp to camp. There are many reports of prisoners working up to 16 to 18 hours a day to meet labor quotas that are enforced through withholding of food rations. Prisoners also often labor in highly unsafe conditions including work in mines and with toxic chemicals. Sometimes conditions are less arduous with more reasonable working hours and more humane treatment. Prisoners do not receive payment for their labor or any profit generated from the products they produce.
· Organ harvesting
According to documented evidence gathered by the Laogai Research Foundation and other human rights and media organizations, the practice of harvesting the organs of executed prisoners in China began sometime in the late 1970s. Organs harvested from prisoners are used in transplant operations for privileged Chinese and for foreigners. Despite the claims that prisoners give consent for the use of their organs for transplant, the evidence suggests that an overwhelming majority of prisoners or their families never give consent before the execution.
· Capital punishment
According to the statistics of Amnesty International, China executes more prisoners every year than the rest of the world combined. According to the latest statistics, in 1998 Amnesty recorded 2,701 death sentences and 1,769 executions. Because these figures are calculated through the use of open source reports, they are believed to be far lower than the actual numbers. According to the Chinese criminal law code there are over sixty capital offenses. People are executed for crimes ranging from murder to theft to arson to drug trafficking. The actual number of executions carried out in China is regarded as a state secret.
What is the political function of the Laogai system?
One of the key functions of the Laogai, besides simply punishing criminals, is to serve as a political tool of repression and reform for the Communist Party. Political criminals in the Laogai include pro-democracy activists, labor activists, and religious believers among the Han Chinese and minority nationalities like Tibetans, Uighurs and Mongolians.
Once in the Laogai, inmates are forced to confess their “crimes,” denounce any anti-Party beliefs and submit to a regimen of reeducation and labor.
The atmosphere of fear and political repression in China is also perpetuated by China’s periodic “strike hard” campaigns. During these campaigns, which are initiated to intimidate the population and further prop-up the failing Communist regime, Chinese authorities increasingly rely on stiff penalties, public trials and mass executions. China’s record of due process leaves much to be desired according to any standard. This record only worsens when viewed in the light of the procedures made possible under the “Strike Hard” Campaign. These procedures administrate a trial and sentencing process that is to be implemented rapidly and promptly while those who are accused of a crime are considered guilty before the trial takes place. It is under these circumstances that the Chinese Communist Party has successfully silenced all its dissidents and has instilled fear throughout its population.
What is the economic significance of the Laogai?
The Laogai camps are also an integral part of China’s national economy. Chinese authorities see the Laogai as a source of endless cost-free labor and are continuously studying the application of forced labor in increasing productivity and profits. The millions in the Chinese Laogai constitute the world’s largest forced labor population. The Communist Party seeks to use these organs of repression to turn a profit. The use of forced labor in China is simply seen as another input into the economic equations of national output. The deliberate application of forced labor by the Chinese government has spawned an entirely new field in China’s economy: the economics of slavery. One theorist clearly defined this policy in the following statement
The fundamental task of our Laogai facilities is punishing and reforming criminals. To define their function concretely, they fulfill tasks in the following three ways: (1) Punishing criminals and putting them under surveillance; (2) Reforming criminals; (3) organizing criminals in labor and production, thus creating wealth for society. Our Laogai units are both facilities of dictatorship and special enterprises.
Criminal Reform Handbook
PRC Ministry of Justice, Laogai Bureau
Shaanxi People’s Publishers, 1988
The CCP considers the production activities of the Laogai to be state secrets. Laogai administrators must adhere to the traditional emphasis of reform of prisoners in order to mold them into “new socialist persons” while simultaneously reaching certain productivity and profit levels. Although many Laogai industries have proven to be unprofitable because of weak management and an obviously unmotivated workforce, the Chinese authorities are constantly trying to integrate the Laogai into the national economy and encourage Laogai products to enter the international market to earn hard currency.
Are Laogai products ever exported to the international market?
As the end objective in the Laogai is to look for the greatest source of revenue, numerous Laogai enterprises have made the move onto international markets through the export of its forced labor goods. Laogai products have time and time again been found to be available in international markets. Despite claims to the contrary by the Chinese government, the CCP is constantly encouraging the exportation of Laogai goods.
I don't think you read anything. If you did, not sure you have the capacity to understand. And I will forgive you for that. You are obviously not ready to hear the truth. That is okay. I am not angry with you, you are still very young. When you grow and things become more important and you feel empathy for others instead of being so self righteous, my hope for you is that you will use your misguided anger and angst to do something good instead of just insulting people. I send you much love my friend and I will pray for you.
Good luck to you.
Just so you know, when I said it is 10 times more likely, that was just an estimate, the truth is we don't know for sure because the Chinese govt is very secretive. But what does it take? twice as likely? Only half the goods are made by prison laborers? 1/10th? I think 1 product made by anyone who is not working on their own will or making a living wage is one too many. I think any amount is too much. I think it is wrong if one person is mistreated or one buddhist/person is tortured. This was always my point. And I am of the mind if I am not sure that a product is made fairly and traded fairly that is too scary to buy anything from China until these transgressions are acknowledged. You obviously are fighting for the right to be ignorant and I see no way to win that against you. So go. Buy Chinese goods. Can you tell the difference between one made by someone who made 30 cents a day or one made by someone who had bricks thrown at them? I want neither. But you go ahead. It is your karma. You have been given the information. That is all I can do.
Yes I read some of your links, fool, they talk about the mistreatment of tibetans, and tibetans being used as cheap labour - nothing that backs your misguided claim that "it is 10 times more likely that they are using prison labor to manufacture these goods" (in relation to cheap chinese products).
There are 1billion people in China, And you are saying that the majority of the workforce is in prison?! Drowning me in links doesn't prove that.
First you complained that I had no back up information. Now I have given you several places to go find the Truth. You criticized my choice of words in prison--imprisoned both are proven here by examples and economics. Tell me now, what does it take. Do you need me to read them to you? How many imprisoned, abused, tortured laborers is enough to make you care? One? What if that One was you, I bet you'd care then wouldn't you? Well every one of the estimate 20-30 million is someone's sister, brother, daughter, mother, father. And they care. They care a lot. And as a human being, I care. One is too many. But it isn't one. Its millions making millions of goods a day and getting cattle prodded when they get too tired to keep going. When is it enough? When?
Pres Zount
11-09-2006, 04:28 PM
Yes I read your posts, and your links. I do not have a problem understanding, it's just that you seem to have a problem staying on track.
http://www.intute.ac.uk/sciences/worldguide/html/852_economic.html
Labour Force
Number in labour force: 791.4 million (2005 est.)
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-11/25/content_394887.htm
China now has a prison population of 1.5 million in its 670 jails
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/worldbrief/continental_asia_records.php?code=91
Prison population total
(including pre-trial detainees / remand prisoners) 1,548,498
Rather than it being ten times more likely that products are manufactured in prison, it is nearly 800 times more likely that they are manufactured out of prison. But these are official Chinese figures, so I am sure they have another million people in secret prisons.
If we take your estimates: The number of prisoners in the laogaidui excluding jiuye prisoners is at least 10 million and probably nearer 15 million
That still makes it around 50 times more likely that any chinese product you buy will be manufactured out of a prison.
I'l restate and say that I do not doubt you when you say that tibetans, chinese and anyone else rotting in a Chinese prison are being mistreated and used for slave labour. There is no need to post all these links as I do not doubt that prison labour exists. That is not the issue.
I don't want to get banned for arguing on the buddhist section of this message board, so thankyou for retracting your original claim and ending this garbage.
Yes I read your posts, and your links. I do not have a problem understanding, it's just that you seem to have a problem staying on track.
http://www.intute.ac.uk/sciences/worldguide/html/852_economic.html
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-11/25/content_394887.htm
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/worldbrief/continental_asia_records.php?code=91
Rather than it being ten times more likely that products are manufactured in prison, it is nearly 800 times more likely that they are manufactured out of prison. But these are official Chinese figures, so I am sure they have another million people in secret prisons.
If we take your estimates:
That still makes it around 50 times more likely that any chinese product you buy will be manufactured out of a prison.
I'l restate and say that I do not doubt you when you say that tibetans, chinese and anyone else rotting in a Chinese prison are being mistreated and used for slave labour. There is no need to post all these links as I do not doubt that prison labour exists. That is not the issue.
I don't want to get banned for arguing on the buddhist section of this message board, so thankyou for retracting your original claim and ending this garbage.
I did not retract a thing. You made an argument about numbers when my original point was about atrocities. To me this was always the issue. You attacked me for nothing. You are still a jerk who wants to have the last word. God help you with that. You doubted me the whole way and still instead of thanking me for all the work I did to support the Truth and Tibetans and Human Rights violations you make it about numbers AGAIN. It was supposed to be about them but you made it about you. Way to go.
zorra_chiflada
11-09-2006, 07:22 PM
joon, shut the fuck up.
joon, shut the fuck up.
who the fuck are you?
why are you all in the milarepa thread? why?
you all really miss the point, don't you?
Gate, gate, paragate parasamgate, bodhisattva.
zorra_chiflada
11-10-2006, 01:34 AM
who the fuck are you?
why are you all in the milarepa thread? why?
you all really miss the point, don't you?
Gate, gate, paragate parasamgate, bodhisattva.
no, who the fuck are you to send threatening pm's to people just because they disagree with you, or even prove you wrong?
Pres Zount
11-10-2006, 05:03 AM
I did not retract a thing. You made an argument about numbers when my original point was about atrocities. To me this was always the issue. You attacked me for nothing. You are still a jerk who wants to have the last word. God help you with that. You doubted me the whole way and still instead of thanking me for all the work I did to support the Truth and Tibetans and Human Rights violations you make it about numbers AGAIN. It was supposed to be about them but you made it about you. Way to go.
I made it about me? That's the new dumbest thing I've heard all week.
Shutup, wrongo.
no, who the fuck are you to send threatening pm's to people just because they disagree with you, or even prove you wrong?
please send me a copy of the threatening pm. i looked at everything I sent and wow, I see no threats, I even thanked the gentleman. Where do you get off saying I threatened anyone?
no one proved me wrong.
information from the chinese govt does not prove me wrong. i have never threatened anyone, specifically not you. I don't even know who you are. i came here to discuss buddhist issues. not sure why you all are here.
of course the chinese govt estimates are in their favor, much like the german govt in the holocaust.
I am really not sure why anyone would come to a buddhist thread to be nasty. can you help me out with that?
numbers are one element of the issue, if that is the most important part to you then i feel sorry for you.
I will repeat myself, if one Tibetan or Chinese is wrongfully imprisoned and forced into labor that is too many. I am sorry that you don't see that as the issue.
my numbers say 20-30 million not 1.5 million are in prison and that even those not in actual prisons are making 30 cents a day (far from a living wage), but i guess you prefer to ignore that in light of proving a moot point.
i was called a moron and an idiot for fighting for Tibet and humanity and told to fuck off by some child I don't even know and who certainly doesn't know me.
So before you accuse someone of lying and being stupid when all I did was try to put some valuable information about Human Rights violations and how the West can help, maybe you should ask yourself--why am I here? Is it to help or be ugly to someone I don't know who loves Tibet and the Dalai Lama and Buddhism? Maybe you could help me by giving me the answer.
and if the truth be told, i have felt more threatened by you two. you called me names and told me to shut the fuck up like picture perfect little republicans. i have always encouraged dialogue but that is not what you all are about, you are about jabs and name calling. if it was about crunching numbers, we could have done that together, but it wasn't about that it was about you trying to silence me and my love for buddhism can't be silenced by juvenile threats and bullying. nice try tho, you only made me stronger, so for that, i thank you. Thanks, have a great day.
zorra_chiflada
11-10-2006, 08:27 AM
oh wow, good one. pming me now. that's pretty pathetic.
oh wow, good one. pming me now. that's pretty pathetic.
Again. why are you here? To exchange unpleasantries? that is a good one. that is pathetic.
here is the pm i sent. i don't mind who sees. this proves that i have one purpose here. and it is not to fight. it is to discuss buddhist issues. is this threatening to you. it must be if you feel compelled to keep coming back with anything other than what pertains to the issue of Human rights. Human rights. Human rights. Human rights. Do you have anything to say about Human rights? Do you. Do you? You are a child who does not have the good graces or intelligence to discuss anything that has any importance to the legend of Milarepa nor am I convinced you know a thing about Milarepa or you would cease this behavior with the understanding of how you are disgracing his memory. Milarepa was about bringing people together through music. Not manufacturing contention with invalid and unsound philosophical arguments like 'shut the fuck up'. I feel so very sorry for you. Pity. That is what I feel for you. So very sad that you have nothing better to do than start little petty wars with people you don't know. Let me know how that works out for you. I am going to be over here, trying to make the world a better place.
"What business is any of this to you? I don't know you. You don't know me. Do you care about Human Rights Violations? Do you care about the nun that was shot dead or care to know why she was? Do you care about how the Olympics are going to make the CHinese govt think the international world approves of their behavior? Do you care about anything but being a bully with curse words? I would appreciate it if you would keep you foul words and hypocritical attitude to yourself. Thanks."
I still love you though. Still. Because your attitude is highly indicative of the international problem of ignoring the atrocities in light of numbers that make you uncomfortable. So for what it is worth. I am glad this has happened. Because now people can see that the battle is not about the atrocities but ignorance and arrogance. And knowing what you are up against is half way to winning the battle. So keep insulting me and keep side stepping the issue of Human Rights, you are showing everyone how the world treats Tibet. You have yet to answer any of my questions about why you are here, if you care about Human Rights violations and you keep spinning this into pettiness. Much like the international community. So again, thanks, thanks for proving a point I wasn't even trying to make which is that it is very difficult to argue for Tibet when people have it in their hearts to be mean or selfish or righteous. I could not have made that point all by myself. So, thanks. I still send you love and I pray for all of us to someday appreciate the brevity of what is going on in China and maybe step outside of ourselves for a moment so that we can come together to do something right for a change.
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