View Full Version : grammar question - commas
i think i'm using too many, but i'm not positive. can someone who's good with grammar (don't answer unless you're pretty sure you're right, i'm handing this in for a grade) look at this sentence for me and tell me if it's got too many commas?
Mr. Stevens wants to forbid OPIR from accessing his farm, or, failing that, to limit their access to one evening hour per month.
it seems like maybe, maybe, i could do without either the comma after "or" or the comma after "failing that", or maybe even both, but i'm just not sure. i've never been very good with commas or semicolons or colons or wannabe letters like that.
also i'm not sure if "forbid" is the right word, come to think of it, but i'm mostly asking about the commas. you guys are my only peers available at the moment so yes, i'm asking you to help me proofread, i've been using commas questionably all over this bitch
Freebasser
10-09-2006, 02:51 PM
The one after 'or' needs to go (y)
Dr Deaf
10-09-2006, 02:52 PM
i'm, terrible, with, commas, apparently.
so, sorry everybody.
The one after 'or' needs to go (y)
ok, i thought so. it looked ok to me both ways though, so i wasn't sure
thanks
unless you're lying, then you're dead
looking back that sentence sucks, i used "access" twice in it. i hope all my sentences aren't like that, i'm pretty ashamed of it
Freebasser
10-09-2006, 02:55 PM
If you were reading it aloud and had chronic asthma, or were delivering a speech with gusto and enigmatic pauses, then you might want a comma after "or"; but if it's just for a piece of written work then the comma after "or" should be ok with being left out. Send him round to my place - he can watch porn and drink chicken soup (y).
and i used "access" again in the next sentence! this is gonna be a long day, i can tell
i'm too embarassed to edit this thing any further, i think i'm just gonna turn my back on it and hand it in, i hate readng my own writing
Guy Incognito
10-09-2006, 03:02 PM
looking back that sentence sucks, i used "access" twice in it. i hope all my sentences aren't like that, i'm pretty ashamed of it
I dont want to teach you how to suck eggs but as a suggestion how about instead of "Mr. Stevens wants to forbid OPIR from accessing his farm, or, failing that, to limit their access to one evening hour per month" you do:
"Mr Stevens wants to completely block OPIR's access to his farm,or failing that, limit it to one evening hour per month".
I dont want to teach you how to suck eggs but as a suggestion how about instead of "Mr. Stevens wants to forbid OPIR from accessing his farm, or, failing that, to limit their access to one evening hour per month" you do:
"Mr Stevens wants to completely block OPIR's access to his farm,or failing that, limit it to one evening hour per month".
i like it...i like it alot
and i used "access" like 5 times in that goddamn paragraph, jeez. i just don't pay attention when i write, apparently.
Guy Incognito
10-09-2006, 03:07 PM
i like it...i like it alot
and i used "access" like 5 times in that goddamn paragraph, jeez. i just don't pay attention when i write, apparently.
Well, I'm guessing part of your paper concerns access rights so I dont suppose it matters if you use it a few times, the people marking it must be expecting to see it and I'm not a walkin thesarus or anything but I cant think of any other words to use instead at the minute
Freebasser
10-09-2006, 03:08 PM
admission, admittance, approach, avenue, connection, contact, course, door, entrance, entree, entry, in, ingress, introduction, key, open door*, passage, path, road, route, way
admission, admittance, approach, avenue, connection, contact, course, door, entrance, entree, entry, in, ingress, introduction, key, open door*, passage, path, road, route, way
what's the asterix for you walking thesaurus?! get extinct!
Freebasser
10-09-2006, 03:20 PM
* = the best word
Mr. Stevens wants to prevent OPIR from open dooring his farm
oh yeah, editing over, that's the best. i'm just gonna hand in that sentence, actually.
The Notorious LOL
10-09-2006, 03:24 PM
grammar in general sucks
Freebasser
10-09-2006, 03:26 PM
Mr. Stevens wants to prevent OPIR from open dooring his farm
oh yeah, editing over, that's the best. i'm just gonna hand in that sentence, actually.
You can pretend that it's Cockney and reference Dick van Dyke. They'll love it.
the person who's going to grade the paper actually has pretty dreadful spelling and grammar so i don't think i need to obsess over it that much but i dunno
Freebasser
10-09-2006, 03:29 PM
Just remember your mantra when you hand it in.
'Open door
Open door
Open door...'
Echewta
10-09-2006, 03:39 PM
Have you seen juniors grades?
venusvenus123
10-09-2006, 04:10 PM
alot is two words: a lot. :)
cosmo105
10-09-2006, 04:13 PM
alot is two words: a lot. :)
thank you. i had a teacher in 7th grade that made this point by writing "a" on the left end of the chalkboard, then taking long, leaping steps to the other side and writing "lot." all the while, she'd holler, "AAAA...LOT!" never forgot that crap.
alot is two words: a lot. :)
i'm usually pretty good about that
i dunno what happened
i guess i'm a little less careful on here
I love commas and don't fucking, care.
befsquire
10-09-2006, 10:28 PM
OPIR is a single entity, so be sure not to say "their" when referencing OPIR.
law is not the place where you decide to liven up your paper. this is not creative writing, it's legal writing. if you mean access, you need to stick with access no matter how many times you use it, because using any other word all of a sudden leaves it open to interpretation.
sorry. if it's not dry and boring, your teacher is gonna red mark the fuck out of your paper.
make the sentence as strong as you can while using the least words possible. do not use passive phrasing. ex: "the court held" instead of "it was the holding of the court that...".
trust me.
"mr. stevens seeks" is stronger, while saying "mr. stevens is seeking to" is passive. so, try to use less words ending in "ing" because it's usually going to be passive.
mr. stevens seeks to block OPIR's access to his farm, or in the alternative, to limit OPIR's access to one evening hour per month.
i'm sure there's a way to shorten that even, but that's all you get right now since i'm tired.
OPIR is a single entity, so be sure not to say "their" when referencing OPIR.
welp, i've got some editing to do in the next 8 hours
i switch between OPIR and OPIR's members so sometimes it's their and i guess apparently sometimes it's its, that's bad
i dunno though i'm fairly confident that whatever i write is doomed to get redmarked, i mean it's my first memo, none of us have ever written in this style before, it's a matter of practice. we're supposed to suck at it for a while, surely, i hope
tracky
10-09-2006, 10:36 PM
looks like this case is closed
i definately agree with beth cause the whole time you were going on about using access too many times i was thinking, well that's the word, and it's not creative writing.
goddamn it, i was about to go to bed, too, are you sure you're not fucking with me?
theys and theirs all over the place, how did i not know about this until just now, jesus christ
befsquire
10-09-2006, 10:36 PM
and technically, i think it's proper to either lose the comma before or after the or, but you can't have both.
also, is it clear it's mr. stevens' farm? if so, you could say:
mr. stevens seeks to block OPIR's farm access, or in the alternative, limit OPIR's access to one evening hour per month.
you've now eliminated more words and made a stronger sentence.
its and their will fuck you up hard for a bit.
befsquire
10-09-2006, 10:40 PM
also, when editing, the words "to" and "that" can often be eliminated.
i'm totally not fucking with you bob. i wouldn't do that. i'm helping you get the better grade earlier.
you're still gonna get red marks all over your shit, but a lot of that is the teacher's style. the best lesson i got was from my seminar professor. he fucked my shit up so hard, but after that i was solid. also, he gave me the only A he's ever given anyone, but since i was only a student, he made it an A minus because "i'm not on his level yet." WHATEVER. made me a better writer, and i only had to edit my next paper one time for the easy A.
Documad
10-09-2006, 10:51 PM
I can't imagine why you would ever put a comma before the "or".
I only use commas to set off phrases -- if the phrase could be taken out of the sentence without messing up the rest of the sentence it can be set off with a pair of commas. So I'd say "Mr. Stevens seeks to block OPIR's farm access or, in the alternative, limit OPIR's access to one evening hour per month. Can you see that it still reads as a sentence if you take the phrase out that is separated by a pair of commas. The way Beth did it, you couldn't do that, so Beth's way looks improper to me.
In my opinion, commas are the least important thing in writing. I have no idea what you're working on, but are you probably supposed to be learning legal citation form? And the thing Beth pointed out about selecting the correct pronoun (as well as selecting the correct verb form--singular vs. plural) is much more important.
befsquire
10-09-2006, 11:01 PM
i know it doesn't seem like it, but if you took out "in the alternative" and it just had "or" you would still have a proper sentence.
mr. stevens seeks to block OPIR's farm access, or limit OPIR's access to one evening hour per month.
you can choose to have the comma in that^ sentence or lose it. if you lose it, "in the alternative" would have to be offset with commas should you add that phrase in. so, that's why you can choose, in this limited situation, which comma you want.
but normally, phrases are to be offset with commas as documad said.
i went back through it and it turns out i didn't fuck up my pronouns as badly as i thought. turns out i used "OPIR's members" followed by "their" more than i used "OPIR" on its own. still, good to have that fixed.
i'm working on an office memorandum, about a guy who wants to keep some watchdog group from visiting with his migrant workers because he's afraid they're going to incite a rebellion or something. it's my very first one, so it sucks. but it's done! as done as i care to make it, that is, because i simply don't want to look at it anymore and it's due tomorrow morning (don't worry, i didn't do it at the last minute, i've been working on it all weekend...although i guess in law school, that IS considered the last minute, but whatever)
so we don't like "failing that", i take it? :(
befsquire
10-09-2006, 11:08 PM
do you know what this means then bob?
you will all of a sudden come up with a brilliant edit approximately 3 minutes before you're to leave your house. the edit will require a total time of 7 minutes, with printing. you will then be late to class by like one minute, making it look as if you stayed up all night doing your assignment.
so be sure to print off parts of the message board so that people know you were posting.
don't print this thread though!
Documad
10-09-2006, 11:09 PM
If you take out "in the alternative" and just have an "or" then no comma at all! :p
I was mediocre in legal writing class, but wound up being an excellent legal writer. I'm the one all the folks come to for proofreading, which I know is difficult to believe from the way I write here. :rolleyes:
befsquire
10-09-2006, 11:10 PM
i don't like "failing that" and i can't even give you a reason why. sorry.
but it's your memo (it's not like it's for the court) and you should do what you like.
befsquire
10-09-2006, 11:14 PM
i distinctly recall being 7 years old, visiting my grandparents in florida, and being told "don't end your sentences in a prepositional phrase, beth."
i still do that^ here and there and it hurts my eyes.
i'm lazy on here. i can't be bothered to capitalize, and half the time i just say "theirs" even though i know i shouldn't because it's easier than going back and adding in extra words. plus, sometimes it just sounds better. and obviously i can't be bothered to capitalize, or anything else.
but like documad, i'm a good at editing the work of others because my grandmother was a grammar nazi. and a spelling one as well.
sometimes i add a comma when i don't have to because i like it and it's like getting away with something because i'm technically not breaking a rule but i know my grandmother wouldn't like it. :)
well see, i think it's kinda appropriate, because the situation (in part) is this:
write an office memorandum addressing: a) whether the law allows Mr. Stevens to prohibit OPIR members from entering his farm to visit the migrant workers; and b) assuming that the law does require that he provide such access, whether, through litigation, he would be likely to be able to limit this access to one evening hour per month
so it just seems like the one hour per month thing is his backup solution in case the first one fails
Documad
10-09-2006, 11:16 PM
so we don't like "failing that", i take it? :(
Not at all, but I'm not sure what you mean to say. Does Mr. Stevens want to do one of those two things but he doesn't care which one? Then it's "or". Does Mr. Stevens prefer one thing but he will accept the other if he can't have it? Then "failing that" makes sense. "In the alternative" is a standard way to put things in legal talk, but it might not mean exactly the same thing. It's close though.
Bob, this isn't the kind of thing that bothers me. What bothers me is passive voice, wrong verb tense, and when you switch around the way you refer to something so that it's difficult to understand what you're talking about. I think it's better to be clear and repetitive than to try and get creative with nouns. So I wouldn't switch from "OPIR" to "OPIR's members" unless there was a reason. None of this is important. Get some sleep. :p
Documad
10-09-2006, 11:19 PM
i distinctly recall being 7 years old, visiting my grandparents in florida, and being told "don't end your sentences in a prepositional phrase, beth."
I love doing that in internet writing and email but I would never do it in a memorandum. :p I'm even worse on my blackberry because I don't like having to use the symbols menu.
Not at all, but I'm not sure what you mean to say. Does Mr. Stevens want to do one of those two things but he doesn't care which one? Then it's "or". Does Mr. Stevens prefer one thing but he will accept the other if he can't have it? Then "failing that" makes sense. "In the alternative" is a standard way to put things in legal talk, but it might not mean exactly the same thing. It's close though.
Bob, this isn't the kind of thing that bothers me. What bothers me is passive voice, wrong verb tense, and when you switch around the way you refer to something so that it's difficult to understand what you're talking about. I think it's better to be clear and repetitive than to try and get creative with nouns. So I wouldn't switch from "OPIR" to "OPIR's members" unless there was a reason. None of this is important. Get some sleep. :p
so yeah, passive voice. i went through and found that i used the passive voice once (it's not even that i'm careful about not using it, it's that it's just generally not done by me...lol little grammar joke), but it's a choice between using the passive voice, or starting a paragraph with a full citation. the writer/reader in me just finds the sentence starting with a full citation to a case horribly ugly, but i guess if you use the passive voice you go to hell (the professor has been very insistent about the active voice too).
basically it's either
a) smith v. jones 234 lol.2d 345, 346 (anytown suprerior ct. app. 1975) laid out the framework for reasonable conduct regarding visits to migrant workers
or
b) the framework for reasonable conduct regarding visits to migrant workers was laid out in smith v. jones 234 lol.2d 345, 346 (anytown suprerior ct. app. 1975)
to me, the 2nd sentence just reads much less annoyingly, but it's passive. i'm sure there's some 3rd option, but i refuse to look for it
edit: keep in mind this is the topic sentence of a paragraph, so i'd think it should be especially readable
Documad
10-09-2006, 11:22 PM
so it just seems like the one hour per month thing is his backup solution in case the first one fails
that's usually when lawyers say "in the alternative" -- like I might ask (move) a court to "stay the proceedings or, in the alternative, dismiss the case without prejudice."
alright, i just replaced "failing that" with "in the alternative". i bet i'm the only student that uses that phrase. except for maybe the ones who've worked in law offices. which is a bunch of them....
well, at least i won't be the only one who doesn't!
also, fuck memos for now, i'm going to bed
Documad
10-09-2006, 11:28 PM
a) smith v. jones 234 lol.2d 345, 346 (anytown suprerior ct. app. 1975) laid out the framework for reasonable conduct regarding visits to migrant workers
"The Anytown Superior Appellate Court established the framework for reasonable conduct regarding visits to migrant workers in Smith v. Jones, 234 Lol. 2d 345, 346 (Anytown Supr. App. Ct. 1975)."
There would be a space between lol. and 2d -- But otherwise nice fake cite. :p
Bob, you will come up with your own format and then you'll be plugging it in like it's a formula. My audience is usually state courts, and I'll want to tell my lower state court that my appellate court established the test already (and the lower court has to follow it). If the case was from another jurisdiction, I would probably not emphasize the name of the court, but what I did above is my standard operating procedure. It's okay to be boring.
befsquire
10-09-2006, 11:30 PM
hey bob!
in smith v. jones, fucking citation (and damn court, year)...
the 5th dca in Smith held, .... (full fucking bluebook motherfucker right here, ya heard me?).
befsquire
10-09-2006, 11:32 PM
hey documad: let's make bob our mentoring project.
Documad
10-09-2006, 11:33 PM
Last thing -- I hate starting sentences with case cites and I almost never do. It's not lethal to write in passive voice in a situation like you did, but I like mine better. There would be no confusion about who was doing what in your passive voice example. But here are the bad ones.
I work with police officers sometimes. They write search warrants that say "Defendant was observed buying drugs from Mr. Smith." Who the fuck observed it? You would think it was the officer putting together the warrant, but not necessarily. Police officers are big on passive voice. I learned in school that public defenders are the only ones who get to use passive voice. "The victim was stabbed" -- rather than "Defendant stabbed the victim." :p
"The Anytown Superior Appellate Court established the framework for reasonable conduct regarding visits to migrant workers in Smith v. Jones, 234 Lol. 2d 345, 346 (Anytown Supr. App. Ct. 1975)."
.......ok, now i'm going to bed (thanks)
Documad
10-09-2006, 11:36 PM
hey documad: let's make bob our mentoring project.
He would be the luckiest law student ever! I think you would be a great mentor. I have asked my manager to never let me mentor again.
befsquire
10-09-2006, 11:36 PM
Police officers are big on passive voice. I learned in school that public defenders are the only ones who get to use passive voice. "The victim was stabbed" -- rather than "Defendant stabbed the victim." :p
defendant didn't do jack shit. the vic fell on the knife.
Dorothy Wood
10-09-2006, 11:37 PM
Mr. Stevens would like to forbid OPIR from accessing his farm, but may concede one evening hour per month if required.
Documad
10-09-2006, 11:38 PM
defendant didn't do jack shit. the vic fell on the knife.
Yeah, right. :rolleyes: :p
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