Ireland

[Pres Zount]

So many people have thoughts or points of view on the Palestinian situation, I was just wondering if those same people had thoughts on Northern Ireland as well, as well as anybody else of course.

thoughts such as :

Is the IRA justified in having a reason to struggle, or are they justified in killing people? Do Catholics and Republicans have nothing to complain about? Does Ireland get a say on Northern Ireland?

Has anybody never really thougth about the subject? Nothing ever gets reported here in Australia, what about around Europe?

Jsut wondering. I would like to some Irish members points of view, too.

[HAL 9000]

So many people have thoughts or points of view on the Palestinian situation, I was just wondering if those same people had thoughts on Northern Ireland as well, as well as anybody else of course.

thoughts such as :

Is the IRA justified in having a reason to struggle, or are they justified in killing people? Do Catholics and Republicans have nothing to complain about? Does Ireland get a say on Northern Ireland?

Has anybody never really thougth about the subject? Nothing ever gets reported here in Australia, what about around Europe?

Jsut wondering. I would like to some Irish members points of view, too.


The Troubles are extremely difficult to comment on because it essentially involves the formation of two groups who despise each other in a way that is highly irrational and difficult to understand as an outsider (I am British but not from Northern Ireland so I have a hard time understanding the extent of the bigotry that exists in the region.).

I think the situation is a fascinating example of the terrible destructiveness of religion as it gives very bad people the ability to control and engineer situations to their own political and financial advantage. I think NI is a fascinating if appalling case study of humanity and memetics.


But to answer you questions (or give my opinion of them)

The IRA is not justified in killing people but it is probably understandable in a way because 1) there is no doubt that catholics did feel genuinely aggrieved and 2) because they were being manipulated by very powerful and evil people and it is very difficult to resist the evil of religion when it is so ingrained in society.

Ireland has no direct say in the running of Northern Ireland but there is a strong Irish influence because Irish political parties (ie Sinn Fein) also run and win seats in the NI parliament. So the Irish Government has no direct influence on NI but Irish political parties who may also constitute part of the Irish government can also form part of the NI government – my understanding is that Irish based political parties who have a presence in the NI gov tend to have much less influence in the government of Ireland (Sinn Fein has only a very small representation in the Irish government). I believe this is because the population of Ireland is generally much less bothered about what goes on in NI (I could be wrong about this).

[chromium05]

Do you know something? I was born in England 31 years ago, I grew up seeing daily news reports of sectarian violence, more than once I have been caught up in (IRA) bomb "scares" and I have no idea whatsoever about who, what, when, where, how or why.

Now I need to find a big unbiased book about the history of Northern Ireland and feel like I'm learning something.

Shameful really....

[Echewta]

Part of my family came from Ireland to the States. I was raised not to particular think foundly of the British and what they did to the Irish.

From what I've read, the British did what Saddam did when he need to control a region. He kicked out the people and brought in supporters where he conqured. Basically, the British captured Ireland (numerous times), prevented the Irish from speaking their language or practicing their religion and then shipped a bunch of British to Ireland. I believe northern Ireland was colonized the most which is why its still part of and sympathetic to Britian, though about 40 percent of the population is Catholic.
The British kept their boots down on the Irish until they rised up. I'm sure the British would have too if the Germans took them over during WWII and prevented them from speaking English etc. Would those British be considered terrorist like the IRA? Is there a certain timeframe where you are a freedom fighter and then terrorist? The Irish got most of their country back because of it, no? Of course I'm talking about centuries of fighting, not just recent decades.
I've never been occupied so I'm not sure how I would feel. If i saw troops or police from the country that took my country over do something that I felt was unjust, I suppose I might take up arms and fight back.
But the fighting also hurts the innocents. There are plenty of British, Irish, Palestinians, Israelis, etc., who are just interested in living a good life and not having to suffer the results of the few in power.

[sam i am]

Well stated, echewta.

The 1916 uprising is interesting : http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/1916_easter_rising.htm

The religious component (i.e. Catholics vs. Protestants) is part of the equation as well as the colonization aspect.

Truth is, Ireland is growing as an economic powerhouse and Northern Ireland has not seen the same level of violence in a while.

I agree with echewta that people generally want to live a life of peace and prosperity, but those who would not rise against oppression or conquest to protect their freedoms, family, etc., are often relegated to the dustheap of history.

[Pres Zount]

The religious component (i.e. Catholics vs. Protestants) is part of the equation as well as the colonization aspect.

If the Irish and British shared a common religion, I still think there would have been the same level of resistance. It's the issue of republicanism, nationalism occupation and discrimination.

Personaly, I agree with the IRA and their aims; but not their methods. I think in the last few decades, the IRA has been more interested with eye for an eye killing of civillians, than they are of ending Brittish rule. It hink they should at teh very least target British soldiers instead of civvilians, or even give out warning before their bombings like ETA in Spain. I suppose this is all a moot point since the ceasefire and handing over of weapons, but I'm sure they will start again sometime soon. Have they already?

There has been a few splits within the IRA, namely between Marxists (Official IRA) who ceased fire in the 70's, and the more militant Provisional IRA. There is also the Continuity IRA, the Real IRA, and the I Can't Believe it's Not the IRA. I suppose I side with the Officials for idealogical reasons, although I admit I don't know much about them really, so I'll shutup.

[Echewta]

But what about what the British did before the IRA? Are we to get upset at the IRA not phoning some warning before a bomb compared to taking away land, making English the official language, killing thousands, etc.?

[Pres Zount]

Unfortunatley most people don't view national strugles in such an historical light, and really, you can't blame the son for the sins of the father.

You have to base your reactions on the here and now. Bombing an army truck and shooting some Ulster police may seem a valid response to starving political prisoners or bashing children to death, but when all the British are doing at a given moment is holding onto your stolen land and refusing to employ catholics, well, you can't really retaliate by shooting innocent bystanders.

Having said that, I still think the British are wholly responsible for all violence and unrest (relating to unification or just sectarianism) in all of Ireland.

EDIT: disclaimer - I have read more about the history of the Ireland, than about current events in Ireland. That's why I want to hear from Irish peoples...

[Echewta]

:cool:

[Ali]

Divide and rule cf. India/Pakistan, China/Japan and almost everywhere else the British Empire held firm.

N.Ireland is the Last Outpost.

[STANKY808]

While visiting family in Scotland, I was told that a lot of the IRA had devolved into a criminal enterprise. Apparently all the hash brought from the continent and sold in Glasgow and Edinbrough was done so by the IRA (these stories are of course anecdotal). The IRA makes the case this pays for the struggle, but from what I was told it was much more like a crime syndicate than a rebel/political group.
Also interesting is the fact that a lot of the same subjugation that has occurred in N. Ireland also happened to some degree in Scotland, yet the Scots have not continued the struggle as the Irish have.

[Echewta]

You think the movie Braveheart would have reignited the fire in the belly of the Scots to rebel against the queen. Oh well...

[Pres Zount]

Reading more about the many splits of the IRA has led me to see them as very childish, and I don't think I'd put my name behind any particular group as of yet.

ROOSTA POST PLEASE.