Wow, the silence here regarding Kerry's comments on the military is deafening...

[valvano]

I wonder what Webb here in Virginia thinks of Kerry calling his son uneducated is...

:D

[QueenAdrock]

You DO know that Kerry was in the Navy and served honorably in Vietnam right? I guess that means he insulted himself, too.

Wait! Could it actually be that he wasn't meaning to be insulting? Could he have simply misspoken? Well, let's take a look at what was in his script: "I can't overstress the importance of a great education. Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq."

That *almost* seems like he was attacking Bush, not the troops. However, what came out when spoken was something much different. I'm sure you're smart enough to tell the difference between what was spoken and what was intended, as anyone can blatantly see from his written speech. I know the Republicans aren't able to see it and they're having a field day with this, seeing as how it's so close to election time and they want to convince voters that Democrats hate troops when that's just not the case.

I mean, why the FUCK would Kerry insult someone who's the same as he was? Think about it.

[kaiser soze]

I think he should apologize but unfortunately his comments pale in comparison to bush's comments and actions

"Those Weapons of Mass Destruction ought to be somewhere!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl0sfF2j1iQ)

Why funerals when there's fundraisers to be had! (http://www.alternet.org/story/17079/)

reachin' for straws once again :eek:

[b i o n i c]

absolutely, queenie. fuck people trying to turn this into some sort of huge issue..

[abcdefz]

Frankly, I'd think it was pretty cool if he'd actually said that, because that's the reality, folks. How many people enlist because they really WANT and CHOOSE an army career? Like, if enlisting as a sanitation worker for three years would pay for their college, they wouldn't pick that?

I think it'd be damned straight if some politician said "Lots of fine people make the sacrificial choice to serve in our military, and for that, we're grateful. And lots of people join the army because their choices are basically military, theft, or drug dealing, and they chose military -- and we honor those people, too. But do your damndest to get an education so that choosing to serve in the military is one of many, many, many life choices you can make, rather than because you've painted yourself into a corner through a youth of pissing away your options."

Damned straight. (y)

[yeahwho]

One of the things that always struck me as an interesting aside is Bush and Kerry both had pretty much the same at grades when attending Yale (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student/).

Bush actually managed to end his National Guard duty 6 months early so he could attend Harvard Business school in 1973, where he eventually became the first U.S. President to recieve an MBA.

While both come from privileged backgrounds and had choices, one of these two in the midst of an unpopular war decided to serve his country on the frontlines in active duty.

[D_Raay]

I wonder what Webb here in Virginia thinks of Kerry calling his son uneducated is...

:D
Wow, the silence here regarding Limbaugh's comments on Michael J Fox is deafening...

[D_Raay]

Wow the silence here regarding the military's continuing use of depleted uranium is deafening...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6105726.stm

[QueenAdrock]

Frankly, I'd think it was pretty cool if he'd actually said that, because that's the reality, folks. How many people enlist because they really WANT and CHOOSE an army career?

Ironically, Kerry did.

[valvano]

Wow, the silence here regarding Limbaugh's comments on Michael J Fox is deafening...


Limbaugh is not an elected official. A blowhard, yes, but not an elected official....

:rolleyes:

[abcdefz]

Ironically, Kerry did.



That's what would help qualify him to to say this stuff.

[valvano]

Ironically, Kerry did.

or maybe for future political gain??

:confused: (lb)

[Whatitis]

"I can't overstress the importance of a great education. Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq."


You might want to remove those quotes because the "us" part was never said and that makes it a completely different meaning. Nice spin though. He might have slipped and forgot to say "us" but it could also just be the typical spin politicians like to use.

[QueenAdrock]

or maybe for future political gain??

:confused: (lb)

Totally. I mean, personally I'd risk getting my arms and legs blown off in a dangerous war in order to further my political career. Granted, you could just stay on an air force base somewhere and not even see combat like the President did, but look where that got him. He's just the President. Going to the most dangerous waters in Vietnam and navigating the Mekong Delta was a much better idea, seeing as how he's a senator that wasn't elected against said President.

[QueenAdrock]

You might want to remove those quotes because the "us" part was never said and that makes it a completely different meaning. Nice spin though. He might have slipped and forgot to say "us" but it could also just be the typical spin politicians like to use.

I know the "us" part was never said. It was meant to be said. It was in his original speech. See, you use quotations when you take exact wording from a document, speech, script, whatever verbatim and reproduce it, such as I did. There is no spin, that was in his original text that he was meant to stick to but went off it by accident.

[abcdefz]

I know the "us" part was never said. It was meant to be said. It was in his original speech. See, you use quotations when you take exact wording from a document, speech, script, whatever verbatim and reproduce it, such as I did. There is no spin, that was in his original text that he was meant to stick to but went off it by accident.

"It was meant to be said" sounds kind of naive, Queen. Sorry to say, but it's true.

Now, I have no idea what actually happened, but here's where the cynical could easily step in and say you "prepare" a speech's text to say whatever you want "for the record" -- give that text to the teleprompter people, etc., do whatever -- and then say whatever you wish, and later plead "oops."

I'd argue that anyone could make a mistake. I'd also argue that people who SPEAK for a living probably know how to correct themselves immediately rather than after the fact. I'd argue that people make a shitload of fun of the Bushes and Quayles of the world for fucking up their public speech in appearances, so why not give Kerry a poke? I'd also argue that you're saying a politician isn't lying to get himself out of trouble (or that a politician isn't lying while also opening his mouth). I'd also argue that etc. etc. etc.

Who the fuck knows, is what I'd argue.

[QueenAdrock]

How is "it was meant to be said" naive? Is there any reason to believe that his slip was actually what he thought? I mean, he was in the military, it's offensive to him and his other veterans if that's what he truly believed. It's perfectly logical that's what he meant to be said, since he always takes stabs at Bush but NEVER at the military.

Definitely agree with taking the piss outta Kerry, if it was just making fun of him for making a mistake. If it's attacking him and telling him he hates the troops, when he is a MILITARY VETERAN, that seems really, really dumb.

I do agree he should have corrected himself to begin with, though sometimes you don't realize you fucked up until after the fact. I mean, one time a girl in my science class said "orgasm" instead of "organism" and didn't realize it till she got back to her desk and her snickering friends told her.

Either way, the only thing that's pissed me off about this is Kerry's handling of the apology. Although I do think that he should go on the offense with the Bush administration if they're taking this botched joke as gospel truth of how he feels, he should have said something to the military. Something along the lines of "I definitely did not mean it that way, it was a joke gone wrong and it came out to sound like I thought you all were uneducated. That is simply not true, I respect you and honor you. If my mistake has offended any of you, please be rest assured that it was not meant in that respect and I apologize for any misunderstandings or hurt feelings."

I haven't really seen any public apology. It's just common knowledge that if there's a possibility that something was taken the wrong way, you apologize and clarify. Not just clarify.

[Whatitis]

Yes, I know we are told it was ment to be said but was it really. Show me a link of the original script. PDF file perfered. As far as why the FUCK would Kerry insult someone who's the same as he was. Well, he's a politician.

[abcdefz]

How is "it was meant to be said" naive?



I'm jaded enough to believe that a person could say what they believed and then backpedal later in apology, and yet the slip was closer to the person's true feelings or beliefs than the apology would depict. See also: Mel Gibson.



Is there any reason to believe that his "slip" was actually what he thought?



Who else to know better than someone who served in the military that most miltary recruits are not exactly the sharpest tools in the shed?

To say otherwise is like suggesting that a scholar who also plays football would never, ever suggest that many football players are pretty damned thick, hence the crappy, crappy number of college football players who graduate.





I do agree he should have corrected himself to begin with, though sometimes you don't realize you fucked up until after the fact. I mean, one time a girl in my science class said "orgasm" instead of "organism" and didn't realize it till she got back to her desk and her snickering friends told her.



I totally understand that and agree that that is a very real possibility.

I just think you're giving Kerry a pass on this that I'm not sure you would give to someone with whom you have less sympathy, is all.

[QueenAdrock]

I'm giving him a pass on it in the respect that I truly believe he didn't mean it that way. I'm not giving him a pass in the respect that he needs to apologize to make things right.

But in my mind, it's like someone who grew up poor saying later in life that people in poverty are that way because they're lazy. It doesn't make sense why he would say something like that. HE was in the military. His friends are in the military. His buddies Max Cleland and John McCain are war veterans. He still is good friends with his crewmates on his swift boat. This is the exact reason why I don't think he thinks that, it insults not only himself but people he's close to. It seems like such a greater possibility that he was attacking Bush and it went wrong, seeing as how he does it every chance he gets.

[abcdefz]

But in my mind, it's like someone who grew up poor saying later in life that people in poverty are that way because they're lazy. It doesn't make sense why he would say something like that. HE was in the military.



See -- that's what would superbly qualify him for saying the truth, though. Why not break ranks with the status quo and speak the truth? -- that's what I'm saying. It'd be like me saying "A lot of church leaders are pretty corrupt, not very spiritual people, generally elected into power because they've had worldly success rather than spiritual success."

Your argument would be, "Why would A-Z say that!? HE was in churches!" and my argument would be " -- and what would better qualify me to make this observation? I was IN churches!"

[QueenAdrock]

Yes, I know we are told it was ment to be said but was it really. Show me a link of the original script. PDF file perfered. As far as why the FUCK would Kerry insult someone who's the same as he was. Well, he's a politician.

PDF? Yes, sir! Would you like a coffee and slippers with that too? :p

I can tell you that it is not going to be available for public release. Once it is, I'll let you know.

[QueenAdrock]

Why not break ranks with the status quo and speak the truth? -- that's what I'm saying.

I feel like I keep repeating myself. I don't think he'd burn bridges with people he's friends with. His co-workers. People he grew up with. He's insulting all of them.

And why would he "speak the truth" a week before elections when saying anything but praise for the military is always condemned? He knows that America loves their military. He knows that saying that the military are a bunch of idiots would go over very badly. Why would he say it?

[joon]

Ok. So everyone is talking about something Kerry said. Yeah he misspoke. Thank God our president has never misspoken. Oh wait. That's right, he is a blithering idiot who can't even read the words his henchmen write for him. He isn't in the enviable position to insult troops that have worked as hard as he did or that he was once a part of because why?? Oh yeah he did not go to Vietnam and he's never been to war. Maybe he did a line of cocaine and then got bailed out from his DWI when Kerry accidently forgot to say 'us', after he volunteered to go to VietNam TWICE. Yeah. I can totally see how this all makes sense. Kerry forgot to say 'us' and George Bush is a draft-dodging, mama's boy, coke-head drunk whose daddy's money got him elected. Kerry-that bastard.
I am beside myself with confusion at how we will ever get over this.

[DroppinScience]

I haven't really seen any public apology. It's just common knowledge that if there's a possibility that something was taken the wrong way, you apologize and clarify. Not just clarify.

He's issued a public apology now:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/01/kerry.remarks/index.html

And thankfully, Kerry has cancelled further campaigning for candidates.

[sam i am]

The real question, now, is what the fallout will be.

In DS's link, above, it has a line about the turnout of conservatives in Missouri and another state possibly being affected.

IF Kerry screws the Demos again (a la 2004), and the Republicans hold onto the House and/or the Senate, will he be cast aside like Joe Liebermann?:p

[Documad]

The funny thing is that a bunch of independents I've talked to thought that what Kerry said was really cool and that they would have voted for him if he had said things like that two years ago.

[QueenAdrock]

IF Kerry screws the Demos again (a la 2004), and the Republicans hold onto the House and/or the Senate, will he be cast aside like Joe Liebermann?:p

It depends. I think he was already partially cast aside after 2004. However, if he, like Lieberman, decides that being on the President's dick is the best thing since sliced bread, there's no doubt he'll be cast out for good.

[D_Raay]

The Daily show hit on it the best...

Deja Vu. Really muzzle the guy because Bush can get away a million gaffes but Kerry...eh not so much.

[D_Raay]

I now realize what Rove's great strategy is. Simply have every person with a voice on tv or radio all over the world simultaneously talk about this(as if it were more important than Iraq)for 2 days straight until people have heard so much about it they think to themselves "fine John Kerry IS a traitor now can I actually hear about something important now".

[TimDoolan]

God I hate politics these days.

[D_Raay]

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/01/olbermanns-special-comment-there-is-no-line-this-president-has-not-crossed-nor-will-not-cross-to-keep-one-political-party-in-power/

[kaiser soze]

can anyone tell me why the soldiers are in Iraq, I forgot....it appears so did the president

Close to 3,000 soldiers dead, countless Iraqis dead

tsk tsk

http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/

(n)

[sam i am]

It's sooooo much fun to see the attempts from those on the opposite side to either minimize this or complain how we should be talking about something else.

When the shoe is on the other foot, it sure does squeeze.

[yeahwho]

It's sooooo much fun to see the attempts from those on the opposite side to either minimize this or complain how we should be talking about something else.

When the shoe is on the other foot, it sure does squeeze.

Opposite sides? Who created this opposite side theory?

[sam i am]

Opposite sides? Who created this opposite side theory?

The phrase comes from "opposite sides of the aisle" : referencing the structure of the US Congress, where political parties sit on opposite sides of the aisle.

Left vs. Right, Liberal vs. Conservative, Democrat vs. Republican : opposite sides.

[yeahwho]

The thing that strikes me about this whole Kerry statement is how little it has to do with anything constructive towards a solution of our current state of affairs on earth. I genuinely think Kerry is the wrong man for the dems, if that wasn't proven in '04 then I guess alot of democrats don't understand the learning curve. He was so busy covering his ass that the message he intended to give fell on mostly death ears.

It was clearly meant as a joke at Bush's expense — anyone with two neurons do rub together should be able to understand that. The mileage this sort of stuff gets is amazing.

Even Olberman has fallen into the trap. Everybody is looking for a way to vent due to their inability to be pro-active.

[D_Raay]

The thing that strikes me about this whole Kerry statement is how little it has to do with anything constructive towards a solution of our current state of affairs on earth. I genuinely think Kerry is the wrong man for the dems, if that wasn't proven in '04 then I guess alot of democrats don't understand the learning curve. He was so busy covering his ass that the message he intended to give fell on mostly death ears.

It was clearly meant as a joke at Bush's expense — anyone with two neurons do rub together should be able to understand that. The mileage this sort of stuff gets is amazing.

Even Olberman has fallen into the trap. Everybody is looking for a way to vent due to their inability to be pro-active.
I disagree a bit with you yeahwho...about Olbermann anyway.

Seems he was responding to the fact that they trumpeted this from the rooftops for 48 hours- responding to all the folks out there that say the democrats have no balls when the republicans twist something into what it clearly isn't-pointing out the hypocrisy of a bunch who demand an apology over a mere slip of the tongue versus the very real and bloody situation on the ground in Iraq for which we will never get an apology.

I understand your point but now is the time to point out which shitpile is stinks the most.

[yeahwho]

I agree this administration is run heavily by speaking points and attacks but the dems all seem to be distancing themselves from Kerry now and the balls have tucked up into the democrats sternum. They aren't embracing Kerry and he is backing out of appearances.

It's a wrong tactic IMO. Go straight into the twister and let the damage lay where it will.

[King PSYZ]

I'm curious if the GOP zombies posting here have ACTUALLY SEEN THE WHOLE VIDEO. Because while I was somewhat disapointed in how they're holding Kerry accountable for every nuance in his speach, which is more than funny form this administration, I also felt that what he said was out of line.

Now that I have watched the video... you do have to be a brainless moron to think he was talking about the troops. In no way is it even implied, he's talking about the misguided leadership and the state of denial in the same breath. It wasn't even part of an earlier statement. It was the same statement with enough pause to let the crowd quiet a bit.

The sad thing is the troops in Iraq I'm sure are hearing the GOP spin on this therefore turning their opinion. And most of the GOP Zombies who are running their mouths have more than likely not seen the speech themselves yet either. On top of that, the current press secratary is far from professional, and last I heard it's not his position to offer up opinions but deliver news from the white house. He must be running for an office somewhere soon...

On to the real issue... The way the GOP is riding this is that Kerry said the military is uneducated (which again HE DIDN'T) and then the GOP trots out this psuedo-factoid about how 95% of the Military are High School Grads, vs. only 75% of Americans in total. First off lets straighten this out, memebers of the Military ARE AMERICANS. So they're part of the same 75%, so that doesn't make a difference. Second, and this one is the kicker... They're High School Grads because IT'S A FUCKING REQUIREMENT TO SERVE.

So regardless if Kerry never actually said that the military is uneducated, they are ill equipped to survive in the real world after doing their part to keep Halbutitron... I mean Exxon... I mean Ameri©a safe. Homeless shelters are busting at the seams right now with veterans coming home with no job skills other than killing people with high powered weapons. So it's kinda sad that the GOP has rolled over these people. Sent them off to secure record profits for their pals and then ditch them once they're back home. Why is there no job training program for the regular grunts? Why is there no placement programs for those with some skills? Why does this government care more about a gaffe than the real issue?

[STANKY808]

Umm Valvano - what have you to say about the deafening media silence with regards to what was clearly an insult (not a made up one) to the military from house majority leader?

On today's edition of CNN's The Situation Room, Boehner and host Wolf Blitzer had the following exchange:

Boehner: ...[L]et's not blame what's happening in Iraq on Rumsfeld.

Blitzer: But he's in charge of the military.

Boehner: But the fact is the generals on the ground are in charge and he works closely with them and the president.

You know, I have not seen anything about this in the mainstream media. Has anyone? I found this through Salon.com

[Whatitis]

It cracks me up to see most here defending Kerry(on this issue). Of course the GOP is going to run with this and everyone here knows that it would be a witch hunt if this happened on the GOP side of the fence. Pretty hypocritical, but thats politics. Yes there are many, many issues that are far worse that the current admin has created. And to bring them up is pure mud slinging. But Kerry fucked up and the people on the other side of the fence are going to run with it. You would expect no less from your side.

[D_Raay]

Umm Valvano - what have you to say about the deafening media silence with regards to what was clearly an insult (not a made up one) to the military from house majority leader?

On today's edition of CNN's The Situation Room, Boehner and host Wolf Blitzer had the following exchange:

Boehner: ...[L]et's not blame what's happening in Iraq on Rumsfeld.

Blitzer: But he's in charge of the military.

Boehner: But the fact is the generals on the ground are in charge and he works closely with them and the president.

You know, I have not seen anything about this in the mainstream media. Has anyone? I found this through Salon.com
Actually I first saw this today on CNN, apparently after the said interview took place. Was coming to post the very thing that you did you beat me to it:p .

[yeahwho]

The key is to cultivate a public perception that you are a complete bumbling idiot. That way, you can make outrageous gaffes every day and not pay the price.

[Schmeltz]

Yes there are many, many issues that are far worse that the current admin has created. And to bring them up is pure mud slinging.


I don't understand. If these issues are far worse, don't they merit more critical discussion than an obviously unintentional gaffe in the middle of a single speech? How can it be "pure mudslinging" to hold public officials to account for vastly more serious and problematic situations that they themselves deliberately created?

[STANKY808]

It cracks me up to see most here defending Kerry(on this issue). Of course the GOP is going to run with this and everyone here knows that it would be a witch hunt if this happened on the GOP side of the fence. Pretty hypocritical, but thats politics. Yes there are many, many issues that are far worse that the current admin has created. And to bring them up is pure mud slinging. But Kerry fucked up and the people on the other side of the fence are going to run with it. You would expect no less from your side.

Funny, they can't "run with it" if the media doesn’t abet them. If you look at what was said by the GOP House Majority Leader - it is actually worse than Kerry's stupidness yet I just did the google and see hardly anything about his statements outside of CNN and some progressive sites and blogs. No corresponding witch hunt that I can see yet.

And D sorry for beating you to the punch. Anyway the interview was originally aired yesterday! So that witch hunt by the "liberal media" is a little slow off the mark.

[yeahwho]

cartoon time (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?id=1485)

[Documad]

Now that I have watched the video... you do have to be a brainless moron to think he was talking about the troops.
I agree. It's clear that Kerry was in the middle of a string of comments where he was bashing Bush. Plus who could really believe that Kerry insulted the troops? No one's that stupid. Kerry certainly isn't. And it goes against everything else he's done and said. Kerry WAS an idiot in the way he handled it -- he should have said "fuck me I misspoke and I shouldn't try to be funny in a speech because I suck at it." That man has the worst internal compass in politics.

And the thing is that McCain knows that Kerry didn't bash the troops. Cheney knows. Everyone knows. Yes, it's politics to leap on your opponent when they do something stupid, but it bothers me that some voters could be that shallow and that the media helps to distract everyone from the real issue. (In particular, I will remember the lack of character displayed by McCain at this and other times--that man will eat any amount of shit to get in good with the extreme right of his party.)

BTW -- I cringe just as badly when the democrats say misleading things about republicans. (for instance, I have consistently tried to rebut the lie that the first Bush had never seen a grocery store scanner but the media would rather repeat the amusing story than tell the truth.)

[yeahwho]

Karl Rove's plan worked! "Get a microphone in front of John Kerry now" we need votes.

[The Notorious LOL]

who cares? Kerry is a tool anyway...just not quite as big of a tool as Bush.

[King PSYZ]

Kerry is a fuckwit, we know so because only a total dipshit could loose to Bush after such a stellar first term. Although Diebold helped a little too...

What bothers me is that Kerry isn't on any ballots, yet the GOP is going to use this to deflect from their utter failure over the last 6 years in every arena.

[D_Raay]

It amazes me the utter lack of accountability that has been shown by this administration.

They are blaming the generals who had nothing to do with us being there in the first place. This is a president who stood proudly and ignorantly under a banner that said "mission accomplished" before the real war even started.

Think about that for a minute. Kerry mispeaks unintentionally and it is a major issue. These fellows have created an abominable sinkhole of death and money and sorrow and they have the nerve to place the blame on the very generals who have struggled just to keep their heads above water... It is utterly
monstrous and defaming and shame on any of you who could possibly vote to keep this heinous charade from progressing any further.

[QueenAdrock]

It amazes me the utter lack of accountability that has been shown by this administration.

They are blaming the generals who had nothing to do with us being there in the first place. This is a president who stood proudly and ignorantly under a banner that said "mission accomplished" before the real war even started.

Think about that for a minute. Kerry mispeaks unintentionally and it is a major issue. These fellows have created an abominable sinkhole of death and money and sorrow and they have the nerve to place the blame on the very generals who have struggled just to keep their heads above water... It is utterly
monstrous and defaming and shame on any of you who could possibly vote to keep this heinous charade from progressing any further.

(y)

[Echewta]

The other day, Bush asked a school band if any of them skipped school. I believe one of the band members said yes, today. Bush then said that when they become 18, don't forget to remember who let them out of school and to vote for the republican of the area.

OUTRAGEOUS!! OUR CHILDREN ARE THE FUTURE. ENCOURAGING THEM TO MISS SCHOOL IS UNAMERICAN.

[King PSYZ]

well it seems to have worked for him... shrugging off responsibility I mean. So I guess that is a GOP value now.

[Ali]

Hahaha volvano so owned in this thread.

None so silent as he who cast the first baited hook.

Bet you wish you'd kept your gob shut, eh?

[DroppinScience]

BTW -- I cringe just as badly when the democrats say misleading things about republicans. (for instance, I have consistently tried to rebut the lie that the first Bush had never seen a grocery store scanner but the media would rather repeat the amusing story than tell the truth.)

I thought it was that Bush Sr. didn't know how to scan a carton of orange juice or something using the grocery store scanner.

[Documad]

I thought it was that Bush Sr. didn't know how to scan a carton of orange juice or something using the grocery store scanner.
The story was that Bush was shown a regular grocery store scanner and was amazed because he had never seen one before. Just about everyone believes that. It's a classic political urban legend.

One reporter wrote that story to show how disconnected Bush was, but the reporter who wrote it wasn't there and the people who were there said it never happened. Bush was being shown some new wrinkle on the old technology and he appeared to be politely interested (as all politicians have to be in such public appearances). Every other media outlet repeated the one reporter's lie without checking it out.

I guess it become so imbedded in our collective memories if it confirmed something that many already suspected about Bush (he's an elitist) but it wasn't true and it wasn't fair. I disagreed with him on the issues but it was a rotten thing to do to him.

(It was also a lie that Clinton's haircut stopped flights at LAX.)

Reporters are unbelievably lazy and as Jon Stewart said, they are actually hurting democracy.

[DroppinScience]

The story was that Bush was shown a regular grocery store scanner and was amazed because he had never seen one before. Just about everyone believes that. It's a classic political urban legend.

One reporter wrote that story to show how disconnected Bush was, but the reporter who wrote it wasn't there and the people who were there said it never happened. Bush was being shown some new wrinkle on the old technology and he appeared to be politely interested (as all politicians have to be in such public appearances). Every other media outlet repeated the one reporter's lie without checking it out.

I guess it become so imbedded in our collective memories if it confirmed something that many already suspected about Bush (he's an elitist) but it wasn't true and it wasn't fair. I disagreed with him on the issues but it was a rotten thing to do to him.

(It was also a lie that Clinton's haircut stopped flights at LAX.)

Reporters are unbelievably lazy and as Jon Stewart said, they are actually hurting democracy.


I've seen a brief video clip where Bush 41 appeared kinda confused about how to use a grocery store scanner. Is that what actually happened?

[Documad]

I've seen a brief video clip where Bush 41 appeared kinda confused about how to use a grocery store scanner. Is that what actually happened?
I haven't seen a clip like that. I'd be surprised if there was a clip of the famous incident because it has been thoroughly debunked. It seems that a clip would have ended the discussion. If you're remembering a grocery store, then you probably saw something else. The famous incident happened at a trade show (where new technology was being shown off), not a grocery store. The people who were present say that Bush was seeing some new innovation that day at the trade show--he wasn't amazed at the concept of plain old bar codes. Given his background, it's awfully difficult to believe that he could be.

I don't mean to question you, I just think it's fascinating how the human mind works. I've seen a lot of witnesses who testify as to their memories and then hear an audio tape of what they actually said during the incident that shows they were dead wrong. I wonder whether you're actually remembering a comedian making fun of it? Or was the story so vivid you remember it as a film clip? For years, I remembered a scene in Rosemary's Baby so vividly that it made me lose sleep and then I saw the movie again and the scene isn't in the movie. I made it up in my head.

Once, I met a friend of a friend who told me a funny story about something that she said happened to her in a local restaurant, but it had actually happened to me and I realized that she had heard about it from a mutual friend. It was such a good story and she had repeated so many times that she started to believe that she had been there. When she told it to me and I said that it was my story, it took her a while to realize that she wasn't there and she was super embarrassed. But I honestly think she remembered being there until I questioned her about the details.

Or, maybe you'll find a film clip and I'll be embarrassed.

[DroppinScience]

I haven't seen a clip like that. I'd be surprised if there was a clip of the famous incident because it has been thoroughly debunked. It seems that a clip would have ended the discussion. If you're remembering a grocery store, then you probably saw something else. The famous incident happened at a trade show (where new technology was being shown off), not a grocery store. The people who were present say that Bush was seeing some new innovation that day at the trade show--he wasn't amazed at the concept of plain old bar codes. Given his background, it's awfully difficult to believe that he could be.

I don't mean to question you, I just think it's fascinating how the human mind works. I've seen a lot of witnesses who testify as to their memories and then hear an audio tape of what they actually said during the incident that shows they were dead wrong. I wonder whether you're actually remembering a comedian making fun of it? Or was the story so vivid you remember it as a film clip? For years, I remembered a scene in Rosemary's Baby so vividly that it made me lose sleep and then I saw the movie again and the scene isn't in the movie. I made it up in my head.

Once, I met a friend of a friend who told me a funny story about something that she said happened to her in a local restaurant, but it had actually happened to me and I realized that she had heard about it from a mutual friend. It was such a good story and she had repeated so many times that she started to believe that she had been there. When she told it to me and I said that it was my story, it took her a while to realize that she wasn't there and she was super embarrassed. But I honestly think she remembered being there until I questioned her about the details.

Or, maybe you'll find a film clip and I'll be embarrassed.


I'm not sure whether it's still up or not, but I saw it on the CNN website. You know Jeanne Moos? She likes to do these delightful, amusing stories profiling offbeat things that relate to the current news of the day (e.g. our confusion as to how to pronounce the Iranian President's last name). Anyways, maybe within a few months ago she did a report that involved maybe the current President Bush being out of touch in some manner (I'm forgetting the exact report). But anyways, there was a very quick, off-hand reference to the former President Bush appearing to have difficulty with a grocery store scanner. I immediately thought of you when I saw it, because you've mentioned it once before. Perhaps we're thinking of two completely separate things?

Anyways, I was very young during Bush Sr's Presidency and my only vivid memories were his "Read my lips, no new taxes" and then watching him get defeated by Clinton.

Funny aside story: I was standing in a hotel lobby in Orlando, FL in October of 1992. These two guys were arguing fiercely over who will win the election. This one guy (with a heavy accent, possibly Cuban) then turned to me and went: "Who do you want to win: Bush or Clinton?" Except I thought he had said "Mush" and the significance or knowledge of either candidate was vastly uninformed for a 9-year-old. I just yelled back: "Muuuuuuush" and then he goes to his friend: "See? Bush will win!" Moral of the story: don't believe either of us. :D

[DroppinScience]

A-ha! This is what I am thinking of...

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/bushscan.htm

The clip in question of Bush with a scanner was just 2 seconds or so and from there it looked like it COULD have been mild confusion.

[sam i am]

OK.

Kerry made a gaffe. We've made as much hay out of it as we can. IF it turned any races, so much the better for us Republicans.

If Kerry runs in '08, it won't matter what else he has going for him...the only commercial necessary would be that one of that snippet of speech and he's doomed.

Gore has a better chance in '08 than Kerry does.


**** and so the political punditry for '08 begins ****

[Echewta]

Bush has said a lot of foolish things too but people seem to forgive. Strange.

[yeahwho]

If Kerry runs in '08, it won't matter what else he has going for him...the only commercial necessary would be that one of that snippet of speech and he's doomed.

Bush has said a lot of foolish things too but people seem to forgive. Strange.

You guys nailed it. I think leverage of holding office comes into play here. The compassionate conservatism involves a little bit of sticking the knife in and turning it. Kerry is never going to recover from the Swift Boat propaganda smear. I like the idea of him continuing on as a sacrificial anode though.

[sam i am]

Kerry may be finished, but he'll have a few more years to make more of a fool of himself.

Who knows? He may even catch up to the "general" perception of Bush ;)

[DroppinScience]

Kerry has about as much chance getting The White House as Rick Santorum does, so it's a moot issue now.

[sam i am]

Kerry has about as much chance getting The White House as Rick Santorum does, so it's a moot issue now.

The fun will be in watching him TRY to run for Prez again....can't wait!

[Drederick Tatum]

hahaha Muuuuuush.

[bilbo]

More useless white noise from the rightwing echo chamber.
Looks like these lame talking points had a tremendous effect on the voters. LOL :D
Congrast to Senator Webb!

[sam i am]

More useless white noise from the rightwing echo chamber.
Looks like these lame talking points had a tremendous effect on the voters. LOL :D
Congrast to Senator Webb!

More useless, lame non-commentary from the leftwing echo chamber.

Kerry had an impact, but it wasn't on the '06 race...it'll be on his failed attempt to re-run for Prez in '08.

LOL :D

I agree....congrats to Senator Webb, if the recount holds up (and it probably will).

Hope the Dems are as good at running things as they have been at running their mouths :p

[QueenAdrock]

Well I was personally hoping for "WE GOT CONGRESS! YEE-HAW!" and then see them run off write a bunch of bills about being able to mass-kill white Christian babies as we're withdrawing all troops from Iraq and disarming the entire nation and replacing guns with homosexual literature on the merits of butt secks, but I guess their whole "We're going to work with the President on issues," is okay too.

[bilbo]

Kerry had an impact, but it wasn't on the '06 race...it'll be on his failed attempt to re-run for Prez in '08.


That ship set sail back in 2004.

Sorry things didn't pan out for you in this thread, or in the election:D

PS--you should try to come up with an original retort. Echo chamber was previously utilized. It makes you look a little slow off the line.

[sam i am]

Well I was personally hoping for "WE GOT CONGRESS! YEE-HAW!" and then see them run off write a bunch of bills about being able to mass-kill white Christian babies as we're withdrawing all troops from Iraq and disarming the entire nation and replacing guns with homosexual literature on the merits of butt secks, but I guess their whole "We're going to work with the President on issues," is okay too.

Why not add in rounding up all the "rich, white males," putting them in camps, then working them to death : wouldn't Guantanamo be PERFECT for that?:rolleyes:

As farfetched as it sounds, Queen, I'm quite sure you've at least the hyperventilating hyperbole from the leftwing blogosphere, relatively advocating just such extremist turns of events...although garbed in the sheep's clothing of "Bush is a Nazi" and "Bush has taken away all our rights."

Funny thing is, I was at a presentation of The Association for Intelligence Officers the other day (people truly "in the know") and they all agreed that nothing will really change without a repeal of all aspects of the Patriot Act.

[sam i am]

That ship set sail back in 2004.

Sorry things didn't pan out for you in this thread, or in the election:D

Your sympathy is wasted, as you are just another bleating sheep in the din of bleating.

[bilbo]

See you in 08!
Keep up your spectacular pace. At nearly 5 posts a day, you should easily topple the the 5000 mark. (y)
I wish I had that much down time in my life.
Good luck Samuel!

[sam i am]

See you in 08!
Keep up your spectacular pace. At nearly 5 posts a day, you should easily topple the the 5000 mark. (y)
I wish I had that much down time in my life.
Good luck Samuel!

Sarcasm is truly your venue.

[QueenAdrock]

relatively advocating just such extremist turns of events...although garbed in the sheep's clothing of "Bush is a Nazi" and "Bush has taken away all our rights."

Yeah but the thing is we're not gonna do it. We're not going to shove left winged bills through Congress like it has been done with the right wing. We're not going to force our opinion on everyone regardless if they agree or disagree, we're looking to unite the country and have people work together towards common goals - health care reform, education, coming up with an actual solution to what's going on in Iraq. I mean, we should have been doing this for a long time now, but we've been preoccupied with things like flag-burning bills when Iraq just kept going down the shitter.

I really hope we can move on to serious issues and get them figured out, and have this whole partisan bullshit aside.

[QueenAdrock]

Keep up your spectacular pace. At nearly 5 posts a day, you should easily topple the the 5000 mark. (y)
I wish I had that much down time in my life.

5 posts a day is nothin'. I probably have close to 20 posts a day while I'm at work. The top posters have around 12. And that's on average, which means if they go for a week without saying anything, one day they'll come in and post up like 80 different things.

[sam i am]

Yeah but the thing is we're not gonna do it. We're not going to shove left winged bills through Congress like it has been done with the right wing. We're not going to force our opinion on everyone regardless if they agree or disagree, we're looking to unite the country and have people work together towards common goals - health care reform, education, coming up with an actual solution to what's going on in Iraq. I mean, we should have been doing this for a long time now, but we've been preoccupied with things like flag-burning bills when Iraq just kept going down the shitter.

I really hope we can move on to serious issues and get them figured out, and have this whole partisan bullshit aside.

I don't know that Pelosi, Dingell, Rangel, etc., et al will be able to contain themselves long enough to not show their true colors. That's my point : the leadership in the House is FAR more liberal than the vast majority of new Democrats that go elected and/or re-elected.

The stress of keeping their "coalition" together will show soon enough.

[QueenAdrock]

Except they know they're treading on thin ice. They squeaked by in the Senate and got the House by 11 seats. There's only two years to prove themselves, because that's when other seats will be up for grabs, as well as the Presidency. Do you honestly think they'd fuck themselves over by having a radical liberal agenda? Or do you think they'll try to work with their opponents to show that they have unified America and worked towards a common goal, which will be a good talking point for re-election and will help pick up even more seats in 2008? There would be no worse political suicide than to have crazy liberal agenda when we've just barely won the Congress and are up for re-election in a short amount of time.

[sam i am]

Except they know they're treading on thin ice. They squeaked by in the Senate and got the House by 11 seats. There's only two years to prove themselves, because that's when other seats will be up for grabs, as well as the Presidency. Do you honestly think they'd fuck themselves over by having a radical liberal agenda? Or do you think they'll try to work with their opponents to show that they have unified America and worked towards a common goal, which will be a good talking point for re-election and will help pick up even more seats in 2008? There would be no worse political suicide than to have crazy liberal agenda when we've just barely won the Congress and are up for re-election in a short amount of time.

See....in those two highlighted parts, you're ASSUMING that they are rational and capable of burying their true natures. Unlike the Republicans who got voted out of office, who wholeheartedly embraced earmarks and spending increases that did not appeal to the vast majority of the electorate, the new House leadership, and, to a lesser extent, the Senate leadership, DO believe in, and will most likely wholeheartedly embrace, the tax-and-spend metality that ushered in the 1994 revolution.

Think about it...for 40 years prior to that, the Dems had the House, then got too greedy for their own good. Every one of the House leaders today is from that era. They've been raised in it...they run on it...and they'll be unable to temper their impulses.

Can't wait for '08.:D

[QueenAdrock]

Sigh. I do think you're wrong Sam. Only time will tell.

Someone bring up this thread in '08, will ya? :p

[sam i am]

Sigh. I do think you're wrong Sam. Only time will tell.

Someone bring up this thread in '08, will ya? :p

Fair enough.

Already, however, Pelosi's called for immediate troop withdrawals without consequences, Rubin's called for tax increases, etc., et al.

See?

They can't control themselves and it'll doom them in '08.

[QueenAdrock]

We already said that stuff when we were running, though. It's not like we're pulling something radical out of our asses that no one was expecting. They were running on the platform of removing troops from Iraq, people knew that, and that's why they were voted in. Should Pelosi have said "Stay the course, keep troops in Iraq until the job is done"? No, because that would go against the Democratic platform that everyone had run under.

[sam i am]

We already said that stuff when we were running, though. It's not like we're pulling something radical out of our asses that no one was expecting. They were running on the platform of removing troops from Iraq, people knew that, and that's why they were voted in. Should Pelosi have said "Stay the course, keep troops in Iraq until the job is done"? No, because that would go against the Democratic platform that everyone had run under.

My point is that you, and others on these threads, have been trumpeting the "bipartisan" party line for a week now, yet when it comes down to brass tacks and actually doing the job, bipartisanship will be out the door. It will be, as yeahwho stated somewhere, "business as usual" : with earmarks and spending now going to Democrats' pet projects instead of Republicans'.

I thought this election was about "change?":confused:

[QueenAdrock]

This election is about change. Thus us wanting to remove troops rather than "stay the course." We're not going to sit around and be a rubber stamp for Bush's policies, but we are willing to work with him. I don't see how calling for gradual removal of the troops is being "partisan." It's what the country wanted, it's what they voted for, and we're working with the president on a solution that is best. I could understand it being partisan if we were like "We're removing all the troops immediately from Iraq no matter what anyone says, it's what the Democrats want and therefore we'll have it." We didn't say that. We're not trying to ostracize Republicans by asking for gradual troop removal, it's simply what we feel is needed in order to start a solution for Iraq and we're trying to work with the opposite team to make it happen.

Either way, it's silly. The Republicans saying "Stay the course! Keep them there till the job is done!" is partisan. The Democrats saying "Don't stay the course! Let's have gradual troop removal!" is also partisan. So tell me, without compromising anyone's platforms, how would one work with the other in a bipartisan way? Obviously one basic idea has to win out over the other...that doesn't mean we'll be stubborn assholes about it, we just feel it's what's needed to be done. We'll still listen to the other side and work with them, but we will not abandon the platform on which we ran.

[sam i am]

^^^^^

Interesting take on it.

The tone and actual votes will be the key indicators of any "progress."