tito puente
05-03-2007, 12:57 PM
i'm reposting this thread with some changes to try and make it more clear....
this conversation was started by a group of black women talking about imus, the value of words and misogyny in today's hip hop world....it was asserted that rappers need to change...i, as a white man and Beasties fan, chimed in about how i thought it was unrealistic to expect the rappers themselves to change because the beastie boys were the only example, that i could think of, of a group who started out with some low brow lyrics and now would refuse to demean women in any way....i also asked a relatively simple but important question about the words african-american....referencing the Beastie Boys started a whole firestorm of reaction....
i realize the post is hard to follow and long, but i did not want to just ignore what other people had to say...i also think that if you take the time to read it from bottom to top you'll get something out of it, and perhaps have something to say of your own....
i think it's important for Beastie Boys fans to understand the consternation and resentment they still foster in much of the black community for whatever reasons.....after a lot of heated back and forth, the misunderstandings were resolved and i think everyone was the better for challenging themselves to think...
it might help to just read my initial post that started it all...here:
interesting takes....
I'm trying to think of an example in Hip Hop of people who evolved and matured with their content and priorities....I unfortunately could not come up with any black rappers, the only ones i could come up with were the Beastie Boys, who were willing to swig beer and demean women in their early records but eventually grew up and became socially conscious....
as a young man you don't want to hear about social change or giving back, you just want to get paid and get laid..evolving and growing up is difficult (and it sure didn't help the Beasties sell records)...it takes time and perspective...I grew up around some privileged athletes and saw how their sense of entitlement really affected their ability to behave properly and have any sense of the world outside self...people have just been telling them yes for their whole lives...i think that happens for any of these guys as soon as they get a deal, it's really exciting at first, the world is their oyster and big pimpin' only benefits their rep...
I think one of the main problems is that the two people in a position to make positive changes don't have any incentive to change: 1. Predominantly newly rich post/current-adolescent black men with no incentive (in their minds)...and 2. Longtime rich middle aged white men with no incentive to make changes to something they fear might affect their ever shrinking profit margins (these guys clearly have no stake in black women)....
It seems to me the only people capable of making these changes are the ones in the middle, black men & women on the rise in the industry at key positions like A & R and marketing, these guys are capable of making subtle changes to what's hot by simply making better choices about which artists to invest in (of course in most cases they'll have to sell this idea to an old white guy)....
I could talk about Clear Channel but that's a whole different problem
much love,
sam
Aretha,
I have a strange question for you ...where is the black community on the words "african-american"? I've never liked this term, it doesn't roll of the tongue, it's not really accurate, and it sounds redundant/retarded...i've always preferred black but that certainly has it's own faults and implications...any opinions on the subject
this is the rest of the conversation in reverse chronological order:
This ia a long and winding debate that sparked some recent
heated conversation at http://myspace.com/globalfusion
Mums to all:
guys, it HAS been a heated and passionate debate.
I haven't read through all of it but from what I did read
it just seems that the conversation needs to continue
no matter what, all sensitivities aside. can't wait
to read more and chime in.
muMs
Marlon to sam
Hey Sam,
This was very touching. I mean, reading the part about sensitivity - I'm faced with this ALL my life, and everything you wrote, just read it back and picture me saying it - all true. However, I felt in this email you beat me back LOL!
Well, to be honest man, I will save this email and when I have time, go back into it to answer some of those questions and lists etc. I didn't see the picture too clearly from this email, but I forwarded it to another one of my many emails.
Off the bat, you're right about me jumpin in to address my own concerns and we both having the right to react the way we did - you had a focus, i had a different focus. It was originally YOUR conversation, so I think I'd have to say I am wrong to assume you HAD to dialogue with me on JUST that. I wished though, because that's all I was focused on. I kept messing up even spelling it Beatsee before i corrected it to Beatsie, and because of fast typing didn't even realize it was Beastie. Sorry. Man i do see where cultures differ. It is making me get real heartbroken seeing how some things must have just really offended you without you really just having issues. Like you're such a nice guy and my style riled you up and for that I'm sorry. I really am, there's a lot in this very email you wrote that doesn't even want me to focuson hip-hop anymore. I learned an even deeper lesson.
As far as my writing - most are published in print, but online you'd find tons of interviews I did in www.hiphopsite.com and Yahoo which used to be (remember www.Launch.com?)
Also I had a column for 10 years for The Beat Magazine, and was the editor each year for our annual Dancehall Issue.
Also wrote for reggae sites like www.jahworks.org and back in the day, wrote for Rollingstone, Vibe and Urb Magazines.
It's out there, some fun, some conscious, some political, some rootsy, some rudeboy/rudegal, some sexy, some political, some raunchy, some eclectic, some of everything
1
-----Original Message-----
From: sam
To: mastaregis
Sent: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:46 PM
Subject: olive branch
Marlon,
I appreciate you taking the time and energy to read and respond to my mail, your points are well taken...
I think you're right that i was overly sensitive in my response but I do feel it's very important to start slow when you're trying to change hearts and minds of people you don't know. I wasn't offended that you typed in bold, i think that has become a common way for people to break down one another's email conversation. it was the lack of any sort of initial salutation that bugged me. I definitely am overly sensitive, you can ask Aretha, but I consider it one of my strengths that allow me to empathize with my friends and others, i'm not ashamed or embarassed by it. I apologize if you thought i was dismissive or overreacted. I did feel like you completely ignored the thrust of my assertion. But as you stated that is your right, and it was not your intention to play by my rules. As you were not interested in playing by my rules I was not interested in a lecture.
You pointed out you jumped in for your own reasons but I was most interested in starting a conversation about where this desired change can come from. I think it's an important topic that should continue to be addressed.
I most certainly am not the defender of black women, nor should I be.
You jumped in because you didn't like the way I used the Beastie Boys as an example. I completely agree that many artists have and do continue to change. But the enormity of the change that was being asked for was far greater.
I still would love to hear your ideas, if you so choose, on how changes in the industry can be made to come to pass. It sounds like you are well connected and informed within the hip hop community. I do think if we as fans are looking for the artists themselves to start a revolution about their content, we're looking in the wrong place.
Where do you see the best hope for making positive changes in the content?
If you choose to answer I'm sure i would be the better for it. Or perhaps you can send me some links to some articles you've written, read, or participated on that are relevant.
I've attached a photo of Aretha doing what she does to me when i've crossed the line. It's photo quality for a photo printer if you want it....just because you didn't respond to my juvenile bet doesn't mean you can't win, sometimes the only way to win is not to play...just ask our congress about yellowcake....
thanks again for your time, thoughts and energy and i look forward to meeting you if i'm in NYC
yours truly,
sam
ps I can't help it and i don't know if you were doing it intentionally but you kept saying Beatsie Boys when it's Beastie Boys
ps2 if you have any current recommendations on what you think are the best albums (not necessarily conscious), but just flat out best in the last few years i would be eager to know...i've actually dialed back my crate digging significantly lately for whatever reasons...
Marlon to Sam and Aretha
read everything thoroughly and have to admit, I reading back at some you pointed out, did sound "preachy" and sometimes I sit back and wonder - well you know we love KRS, but at times we are "nigga wah you preaching about now c'mon" LOL!
So I understand how that can be taken, then as you say - immediate defensive interaction from that.
Well, let me address both of you - Sam and Aretha - it's been riveting commentary, heated and the beat goes on. Most of all I've learned about what to hold back a lil of in my passion or as they say, 'the heat' of the moment. I didn't know about that Caps thing in non-English countries. No wonder when I get those scam emails from Nigeria, they're always in caps LOL!!!
Wrong huh?
hee hee
love to you both.
1
-----Original Message-----
From: visionsep
To: mastaregis
Cc: sam; mums
Sent: Tue, 1 May 2007 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: TALK ON HIP-HOP:WHAT IS AN AFRICAN -AMERICAN
Wow- This is a prime example of culture and the difference in culture that brings about each cultures' sensitivities. I thought the same as Marlon that Sam was making a big deal and taking offense to a disrespect of not addressing one by his name and using the words "look below in bold" and then answering in bold that was never meant to be there. I also thought the same as Sam when he expressed, that mentioning the Beastie Boys was the least of his points in the original e-mail, but that was the trigger that set off Marlon's desired debate because his sensitivities to this comes from him being a black man in the music world, that sees White people on a regular basis giving out accolades to a beastie boys while consciously our subconsciously omitting, downplaying or just straight degrading the contributions of their black counterparts and feeling it is ok to do so without being called on it. I think you did miss the point of Sam's entire initial e-mail by focusing on the beastie boys partly or wholly because of this.
When I first read it, and saw the beastie boys comment , I had the same sensitivities and reactions, but I understood what Sam was trying to say mainly because I know the person behind the words. I however did not agree with it because I didn't see a criteria that they would fit in as a true comparison of the main subject of today's mainstream hip-hop industry and it's effects on women and black culture.
Our sensitivities come from the culture or cultures that created us. In American culture not looking someone in the eye displays a sign of dishonesty, but in many cultures not looking someone in the eye is a sign of respect. In black Christian churches -loud expression, dancing, singing loudly and wearing your Sunday best is encouraged while in a black Muslim mosque this would be disrespectful but the are all praising one God! Cultures , religion and all the influences and things that create who we are depending on a word, look, lack of look, dress, action, lack of action etc. can create complete enemies amongst people that basically have the same foundation and beliefs. We have to be diligent about really listening as well as speaking up. We have to make sure to really teach and learn about our cultural sensitivities and understand it as that when it fits without being defensive of it. As a an African or a west Indian the mere sucking of your teeth in a particular context can become explosive but to a White American that would seem absurd that such a thing can become so explosive.
Marlon addressing Sam's email
Marlon,
once again I begin with Hello, and I have enough respect for Aretha's choice in friends to address you by name...please show me the same respect...i would ask you to mull over my email, and converse with Aretha before forcing me to once again spend 5, that's right five, hours reading and replying to what you've written...i've given what i'm writing some thought, i expect the same...
Sam, with all due respect - by not addressing you by name, it doesn't automatically mean I'm not respectful. If you hadn't done the same to me, I honestly wouldn't have even given it thought. AT ALL. But sorry you were offended, Sam
I see you talk about this 5 hours writing, that is cool, but isn't that on you? And now just like the name, are we comparing efforts and want me to state the hours I'm writing on replying? Assume the positive brother, because I've spent a long amount of time writing back to you. It's obvious, but if we doing hour counts, let's say I spent hours too. Little stuff like this unfortunately kills the debate at hand. Comments about Beatsie Boys, which was always the reason I got involved, is what we should focus on. I only addressed Aretha by name, because I wanted to differentiate between the Larry Bird comments she'd made, and then focus on you after. We're all giving this deep thought Sam, so c'mon stop being so ultra sensitive. If I didn't respect you, you think I'd even be responding to you directly? I'd send off a lil email to Aretha and that would be the end of it. I see a lot of these emails coming directly from Aretha's forwards, I'm directly replying to you, isn't that respect? Let's not digress man...my style is passionate, it's VERY upfront, but it's not disrespectful.
you forward my email, with zero salutation or even intimations of respect, and the following instructions
"see below in bold",
what the hell kind of a way is that to start a conversation with someone you've never met...are you trying to change hearts and minds or lecture me on my inadequacies....i'm trying to ignore this but you sure aren't making any friends out of the gate....
Look how much time you spending on petty things? Ask Aretha, 2 of us have been going back and forth on something TOTALLY different to this conversation. Just us. I reply to her in bold, so to the eye, she knows my reply opposed to the original writing or email from hers. It's not to be disrespectful, it is actually taking the time to make sure you see where my comments are as opposed to yours, it's actually the opposite - very respectful. A part of me just wants to abort this, because I already see by you spending 5 hours, a part of which you're assuming and concentrating on so many petty things like my writing fonts, addressing you by name and TOTALLY assuming I'm not respectful, email might be less of a good cause VS us meeting and dialoguing in person. So I'll address this and then I'm audi, because it's too much unnecessary effort to clarify things, that to me, are so irrelevant. I'm respectful, I kid around at the end, I enlighten, I give different perspectives, I try to act in third person, I ask questions and most of all, if you read in the beginning, I even commended you on some points we r not really engaged in discussing. If you want me to do more and just say, "Sam you're right on everything" and that will satisfy you - then you're wrong. I was brought in to enlighten you on a different perspective, if that doesn't sit well with you, you know this dialogue is going nowhere, and we're wasting each others time.
this is the course of events as I saw them...
Aretha and her friends were having a conversation, started by the Imus situation about rap music and black women...
Aretha forwarded me her email on the subject..I responded with my thoughts and a couple of genuine questions...you disagree with what I've said and request to educate the ignorant white boy on the subject...i'm happy for the opportunity to be educated and send you a mail requesting said education..i tried, unsucessfully, to clarify my statements, and offer you a small bet to with all i'm capable of wagering (and frankly I think my pictures say something about me)...you send me two emails about everything but my questions..
Sam, I specifically said in the beginning and Aretha clarified this too, that I came in talking about your Beatsie Boys comment. Everything I wrote was surrounding that, nothing else. What you offered, if I didn't respond, simply means I'm not interested re bet, pics or what have you. It's not disrespectful, this is something you brought to the table, does that mean I HAVE to respond or partake in this bet? I'm focusing on the only thing I came into dialogue on, notice I didn't get into anything else re all OTHER things you and Aretha were discussing, but again, I did quickly commend you on those points you made. I don't have time for more Sam, sorry. My main objective, which is not going to change, is to enlighten you on a different perspective. That's what's killing the world. I've heard your perspective, just hear mine, hear others. What's so frightening about that? There's tons of folks that hold your perspective and frankly don't want to know there's any other. But that Sam, is ignorance - there's a world we live in with many other perspectives and fact over opinion should make folks open to learning the facts. I listed facts. You said you can only think of Beatsie Boys, I said I can think of others. And others can probably think of others. You gonna come now and say no? OK, no then...so what's the debate? Let's leave it at that. My work is done, carry on with your perspective and live happily ever after...I can argue with ignorance, but I can't argue with arrogance.
First of all:
I feel extremely privileged to hear Aretha's opinions on black culture and am proud that she respects me enough to share a dialogue amongst her friends on a topic that she knows would interest me...I think all people should ask questions, challenge their friends to think outside their own box and live with a healthy curiosity... I do not send her idle thoughts or throwaway arguments..i know who her friends are and am not interested in embarassing myself for the hell of it...
that being said i think it's absurd to think that I as a white person who has been around and appreciated black culture most of my life would have nothing to contribute...frankly i think the best ideas for any topic often come from people who have a different experience or background because they see things differently, and this can help...
OK, point well taken. Granted, but keep this in mind, this doesn't make you an expert or know the ins or other continuously changing perspectives within the black diaspora. We ourselves as blacks don't even know this as experts, it is a learning process.
(please notice right off the bat how you did not talk about black women at all, not even a little bit! One throway line about Latifah? Once again the sisters get kicked to the curb...this was a conversation started by women, about women, for women and you pretend to help them by hijacking the conversation for your agenda as a man, this is troubling...it wasn't about you, me or the Beastie Boys Marlon!)
But Sam, I see you have wrongly again started to stray, MY INCLUSION into this topic was about the Beatsie Boys, that's it. You defender of the black women's tribe now? My mother black as she born yuhknow, so watch your given path rasta. I brought in Latifah as an example to MY FOCUS to the Beatsie Boys issue. Why you can't get that, I am not sure? She was an example. I wasn't part of you and Aretha's conversation about black women, or the African-American term, or anything else. I STATED THAT CLEARLY, read and keep focus on me, on what I was contributing. Iz like a man was brought into building a house as the carpenter, aka dealing with wood, yet you asking me to seal pipes, cut the lawn, do the lanscaping, and worse yet, fix a meal in the kitchen. I AM A CARPENTER. And you going off on me using exclamation marks. You don't wanna take it there my yute, because is hotta fya will start if you don't control yuh likkle emotions and emotives, trust!
it had been asserted in the emails that rappers need to change...
I was trying, unsuccessfully apparently, to point out that there are so few examples of that actually happening,
Actually according to the dialogue I'm focusing on, you have pointed out (TWICE) that you can think of ZERO examples, not "few" as you mentioned. You came up with 1 - Beatsie Boys. That's where I came in, end of story.
that to expect for the rappers themselves to be the agents of this desired change is very unrealistic in my opinion....Aretha and her friends were talking specifically about women and black people ....I pointed out that it was unfortunate that an informed person like me could not come up with any examples of black rappers, that resemble today's artist ,who have made such a change (is that offensive, because apparently you can't either)...today's artists who are on the radio more closely resemble the Beastie Boys on their first record than they do any of the artists you mentioned...or pehaps you expect the 2 Live Crew, Milk or Special Ed to change the misogyny in contemporary hip hop, that's about the quality, and contribution of the majority of today's airplay...
2Pac aka Digital Underground, Jazzy Jeff aka Jazzy Jeff & Fresh Prince are who i mentioned off the bat fits Sam, even Will Smith has transformed tremendously from his short pants, goofy jovial approach. The other rappers were to enlighten you on the positive change, contributions, socially they've made etc. If you want more, Rakim, I listed LL - he's evolved tremendously. No, he's not on some campaign EXACTLY like the Beatsie Boys, no one is. No artist is the same Sam. It's like you posed a no-win equation. You hold up Beatsie Boys as unique individual artists - which they are - but at the sametime use a BROAD goal and then say, nobody can fit the mode of these cats. YES, no one because no one is the same. But there are tons of others who fit into your definition of "evolving" and making positive contributions to society and the world from who they were before their earlier days. If you can't find any black rappers to compare, it's simply because your argument is flawed in the first place. Of course you can't find anyone, because Sam, there is no one like Beatsie Boys. You talking about a catepillar changing into a butterfly and then asking and posing arguments about no other insects change like this. Ah..ah...well, yes. A Catepillar is the only one. But don't bring in ridiculous attachments about no one other than BB has effected positive change or evolution of being conscious. Your argument on how you are so arrogantly constructing it, is in itself flawed in the first place.
Never once did I say 'the Beasties Boys music is awesome dude"... they don't even crack my top ten favorites as artists, but as people they do...but boy you sure leapt to some assumptions..i guess i should've ignored the Beasties altogether because it didn't advance my argument that much and it appears to have really thrown you off topic....that is my fault, and i will not make the same mistake in the future...
Funny you write that, I just mentioned that before above. So thank you, I was trying to enlighten you and I never said you loved their music DUDE
It's almost like you saw Beasties, white, black and your brain turned off, you never once addressed my basic point/question: Where do you, Marlon, see the desired change coming from?
I'm still waiting for an answer.
And you will be waiting forever, because AGAIN, I never came into the conversation to answer your question sir.
It pains me to talk about my favorite artist of all time at this point because our infantile conversation is simply unworthy, but you brought him into our mud so I can't ignore it.
2pac, I can't even believe you would bring up pac to validate your arguments...you should be ashamed of yourself for even partially implying that 2pac was a thoughtless puppet at any time in his life, because that's what you've done..his Black Panther mom would smack you upside your head for even implying such a thing...that kid was surrounded by deep thought from day one....i suggest you show more reverance towards his legacy.. this guy was raised by a black panther in NYC and elsewhere, went to a prominent school for the arts and demonstrated an intelligence, human understanding and creativity well beyond his years at every stage of his life....2pac is perhaps the single most infuential artististic genius of the 20th century, you're comparing this guy to the Beastie Boys, seriously man what is that about? i would never, ever, ever presume to do this...
you think I couldn't come up with 2pac? dude, I'm white not retarded...
I never said you were, never once did. But if that's how you feel I approached you, my bad. Did I say Beatsie Boys were thoughtless puppets? C'mon man, you going all over the place. He was brought in under your simple equation of someone being one way in the beginninig (aka Beatsie Boys) to evolving differently. 2Pac would never revert back to those days, he evolved. Doesn't mean he sees it as being retarded or puppet-like, but he's evolved, just like Beatsie Boys, he still would probably perform his old stuff, but he's evolved, that's all I was showing you. That's all I'm focused on. You're not, but for our conversation and dialogue to last shorter than 5 hours, maybe you need to refocus on the ONLY thing I'm still focused on.
I guess this is the part where I have to validate myself as a hip hop fan because you read I was white and have never met me (please skip this part, it's not important, but i guess as a white person it's obligatory for my street cred):
Artists you brought up:
Chuck D, i was playing bum rush the show on my mom's record player the week it came out because my uzi weighs a ton...
WISE INTELLIGENT : I'll give you credit for making me look up someone I think of as only as that dude from Poor Righteous Teachers, this reminds me to go find Holy Intellect among my tapes in my closet, thanks (doesn't it seem like you've got a buch of great old hip hop albums and mixes on tape you never listen to any more simply because their on tape? i know i do)
DEAD PREZ : current conscious artists who have nothing to do with this conversation...
BIG DADDY KANE: Long live the Kane, again I see no relevance
AFRIKA BAMBATTA: I was break dancing in Jr. High while searching for the perfect beat, the relevance is?
KRS-ONE: knowlege reigns supreme over nearly everybody, KRS as a puppet, surely you jest
PARIS : I admit I was at a total loss here and embarassed that he's from san francisco
TUPAC :this is hip hop heresy on your part, his mom would be pissed...
XCLAN: never really liked them, but my boys in college on the hoop team did...
BIGGIE was speaking about the ghetto struggle on the corners of Bedstuy from day one...
(i've met, with or photographed 50 cent, Mack 10, lil jon, trillville, lil scrappy, DJ Quik, Rappin Fortay, Black C, Snoop Dogg, Lloyd Banks, Young Buck and others) all of my examples are totally irrelevant to the conversation along with yours....it seems to me that the examples you've brought up only reinforce my point...why have I never heard of Paris, is it because of the choices made in A & R selections? where exactly does the problem lie?
as far as i'm concerned you gave only one example who started near where the Beasties were in time and content, LL ..he's done well for himself with the acting, breaking important barriers there and paving the way for other artists to get paid (and a lack of big time money in the black community is certainly relevant)...there can be no question he's remained relevant, and to be a hearthrob and a closet homosexual (according to Aretha) is no easy task but really at the end of the day you hang your hat on LL...
please oh please mastaregis don't tell me you've hung your argument about misogyny in today's music on Ladies Love Cool James...
I ignored all your white boy validations, didn't even read it because you don't know me man, the race thing isn't at the forefront of my mindset, unlike typical persons of color from America. I similar to Aretha, we organically and naturally don't think like your typical. I not even gonna go into my published as well as non-published interviews and talks with artists, including your very own 2Pac and Beatsie Boys, I know you got issues just by you feeling you have to do this with me. You don't it wasn't my focus, AGAIN. Iz like you just want to connect, and for that I'm happy, we're all persons wanting to connect. Some for the wrong reasons of what have you, but my reasoning is to connect and enlighten you on a sole point you made, which in itself by your very own admittance, was flawed. No need to tes' me with your "knowledge" about rappers, I know personally (let's say since 1994) persons who's slept with him. And I could go on for years about all your heroes and my heroes, again, that was never my focus. I listed a bunch of folks, yet you somehow come up with LL as the one I hold up. Yet you say I just merely mentioned Latifah. Sam, you just like to argue irrelevantly, so for this, I gotta sign off, I will meet you someday, carry on...I gotta stop the dialogue on what my focus was as regards to you, because you losing focus. I will quickly address the other stuff...out of respect of course Sam.
we shall ignore this because you obviously would not have selected him first but as far as i can tell he is the only one that was multiplatinum, like the beasties, and was saying little of consequence from day one (the Beasties were in fact spitting misogynistic music from day one and you could not pay them a billion dollars to do so now...this seemed to me to be exactly the types of change that aretha and her friends were looking for...their skin color made them a less than ideal example, as i stated, but i could not come up with any others, which was my point)
cool, maybe come up with folks in the first place who fit into your "Beatsie Boys" category, then pose the highly broad expectation, keeping in perspective all the factors contributing to the "Beatsie Boys" category in the first place - then we can see if we even have a topic for discussion.
I would hope that you are capable of improving my understanding as a human being on the following, which is just my opinion, i neither speak for or represent any other white folks:
I don't think it's realistic to expect the rap game's misogyny to be changed by the rappers themselves because, by and large, those on the radio already, are immature and have little incentive..the old white guys have no stake in black women and clearly can't be expected to lead any meaningful changes...(black women are the original topic of this entire discussion after all but feel free to ignore them again if it suits you...do this at your own peril because Aretha is not to be trifled with)..i think it makes more sense to encourage middle management at labels etc to sign and promote artists like say: the Coup, Crown City Rockers, and Blackalicious in stead of the crap clear channel is forcing down our throat currently where Talib Kwali is the exception not the rule...
perhaps that last portion after the colon would've helped but I assumed an intelligent person versed in hip hop would realize it was implicit...inserting my own choices was not the point...better choices was the point....
I don't think my point was confusing or hard to follow but I say "Beastie Boys" and all hell breaks loose...
WRONG AGAIN - I said it from the very beginning. I said the fact that you said "there are no black rappers" was why as you misinterpret - that all hell broke lose. It was never about downcrying Beatsie Boys. It was your misinformed way of comparing them, by mentioning there's no black rappers to compare to their evolution. Read properly brethren, it was in my very first email.
I highly suggest you to reread what you've written and look at all the tangents you've gone out on...I expect you do have something to say on the subject but who wants to get a lecture when you won't even address the questions i was interested in...
I came in for clarity on what I came in for, that's it. If you can't argue or debate or receive lecture keeping that in perspective, we always gonna have problems. Again, I'm the carpenter (who can cook and mend pipes and landscape) but I was brought into this as a carpenter ONLY. That's all my contribution and time and focus from the beginning will allow. Not because Aretha is my dear friend, means I need to build the entire house because you want me to. Find other builders...they are out there.
you are speaking to an informed adult, act like it...I would never assume one of aretha's friends to be ignorant but it appears you have...
We're all informed, but all of us are ignorant of some things. It is why Aretha put us together my yute. I did act like it, I never went into ordering you around to respect me. Seem like you have issues on a lot, which I can't help you or would even venture on, iz plenty! But I never ever disrespected you once I started to personally address you DIRECTLY. By not calling you by your name in email, owwwww, that's soooooo disrespectful, please...man I respect you that's why I even replying.
after I sent you my mail I forwarded it to Aretha and said the following
"oh it's on!
I have a sneaky suspicion this will end up being a conversation about Nash, I knew I shouldn't have thrown that in there, it just muddles things...
oh well, it's true...
don't say anything and we'll see if that happens"
it appears i was wrong, i would've much preferred the basketball diatribe in drawer B because at least that might have been entertaining (and there's plenty of room for argument that i'm wrong).....
perhaps i can learn from this and become even more sensitive about what words I choose to use when addressing people of color...i thought i was pretty good about this, but hey we can all do better...
you've also avoided the subject line of the email which was a genuine question by a person who cares about the answer..and frankly this is a subject that seems long overdue and confounds even the most sensitive white people...I also don't think the black community has any sort of consensus on this topic....
I repeat it now:
I have a strange question for you ...where is the black community on the words "african-american"? I've never liked this term, it doesn't roll of the tongue, it's not really accurate, and it sounds redundant/retarded...i've always preferred black but that certainly has it's own faults and implications...any opinions on the subject?
as I reread this question i wonder if the question itself seems so naive that it led you to make some assumptions about me, and my understanding of race in america...i tend to think the most important questions are often the simplest and am fully secure in my intellect...i look forward to your opinion...
sorry but none of these concern me, don't have the time based on why I came into dialogue. Sorry, but I am responding so you don't come now and say I disrespected you. Yuh Aretha already knows this, you don't, so I have to be clear, Sam.
In closing Marlon i wonder if you meant to say that the Beastie Boys in the late 80's were surrounded by a plethora of artists who were simply bringing so much more to the table than they were...it was only natural for them to be embarassed by their lack of contribution artistically while simultaneously experiencing platinum success and rock star status...while Rakim was making my favorite rap song of all time "I ain't no joke" to little fanfare, they were "fighting for their right to party" at an arena near you...this is clearly one of the worst songs ever made...the Beasties knew they were the Elvis of their generation and did something about it ...so perhaps the agent of change for the Beastie Boys was in fact black rappers themselves....and perhaps you tried to tell me it's not fair to compare current artists to the Beasties because they are neither white nor surrounded by a predominance of better popular music...or perhaps you didn't like the basic premise of the question...perhaps you tried to explain the resentment within the industry that the beasties still suffer from... because even though they have helped put hundreds of millions of dollars in black pockets by being the original band to cross over and opening up the suburbs for hip hop artists to dominate the charts...they still started as a punk rock band of posers who were exploiting black music/people for personal gain...(you could go on and on here about how Run DMC, LL, and Whodini were already relevant but nobody can predict the popular success hip hop would've received if this crossover happened later, differently or not at all)...
I know for a fact after all you said, have no idea what you were trying to say...
I made one assertion and asked one question.
I asked how you felt about the words african-american?
I wasn't asking where are the future Beasties or the next 2pac...I was making an assertion that hip hop as currently constituted is poorly prepared to produce either one...
I still assert that black women's desire for a reduction in misogyny can best be implemented by young black men and women in positons of influence in the industry...
perhaps i should've excluded the men...
I look forward to an open minded retort.
The open retort is for you to read Sam, you totally didn't get (even though I so clearly stated and Aretha even confirmed) I was only responding to PART of your concerns. It is my choice, give me that. And I stuck to that, bypassed (still bypassing) all the other stuff you continue to bring in. Actually, addressing me doesn't even mean I HAVE to adhere to what I wasn't focused on in the first place. Just Beatsie Boys vs no black rappers and the fine line of flawed arguments attached to the debate. If you remember I was even so clear in asking repeatedly, what's your criteria. I asked this twice, using different words - but after this email, by you own confirmation, I guess by me arguing, you see how you're throwing out 1 group, then one era, then start to go into so much that just confuses arguing and focusing on a debate to make any sense out of it. I tried to ride the rollercoaster of this direction and hopefully something good came out of it. And although common amongst white guys or gals, to be FRANKLY honest, my email towards a black person writing exactly what you wrote, would be the same or even more heated. In fact, if that person were to even use someone other than Beatsie Boys, I'd be responding similarly. So not sure if it's American mindset, but if you could get past that whole insecurity about having to flex or validate on so many levels your whiteness as regards to a black culture or artform, it will eliminate a lot of issues you carrry. I never was focused on you as a white person or your lack of, or high level of knowledge on this topic. What I was focused on was your ignorance on this topic, the same ignorance - trust me Aretha knows this - that us suffer from as well. And I don't mean all the other topics of your concern, I mean only and only why and what I was focused on.
Take care Sam
Sincerely,
Sam
human being
Sam's unedited mail to Marlon
Marlon,
once again I begin with Hello, and I have enough respect for Aretha's choice in friends to address you by name...please show me the same respect...i would ask you to mull over my email, and converse with Aretha before forcing me to once again spend 5, that's right five, hours reading and replying to what you've written...i've given what i'm writing some thought, i expect the same...
you forward my email, with zero salutation or even intimations of respect, and the following instructions
"see below in bold",
what the hell kind of a way is that to start a conversation with someone you've never met...are you trying to change hearts and minds or lecture me on my inadequacies....i'm trying to ignore this but you sure aren't making any friends out of the gate....
this is the course of events as I saw them...
Aretha and her friends were having a conversation, started by the Imus situation about rap music and black women...
Aretha forwarded me her email on the subject..I responded with my thoughts and a couple of genuine questions...you disagree with what I've said and request to educate the ignorant white boy on the subject...i'm happy for the opportunity to be educated and send you a mail requesting said education..i tried, unsucessfully, to clarify my statements, and offer you a small bet to with all i'm capable of wagering (and frankly I think my pictures say something about me)...you send me two emails about everything but my questions..
First of all:
I feel extremely privileged to hear Aretha's opinions on black culture and am proud that she respects me enough to share a dialogue amongst her friends on a topic that she knows would interest me...I think all people should ask questions, challenge their friends to think outside their own box and live with a healthy curiosity... I do not send her idle thoughts or throwaway arguments..i know who her friends are and am not interested in embarassing myself for the hell of it...
that being said i think it's absurd to think that I as a white person who has been around and appreciated black culture most of my life would have nothing to contribute...frankly i think the best ideas for any topic often come from people who have a different experience or background because they see things differently, and this can help...
(please notice right off the bat how you did not talk about black women at all, not even a little bit! One throway line about Latifah? Once again the sisters get kicked to the curb...this was a conversation started by women, about women, for women and you pretend to help them by hijacking the conversation for your agenda as a man, this is troubling...it wasn't about you, me or the Beastie Boys Marlon!)
it had been asserted in the emails that rappers need to change...
I was trying, unsuccessfully apparently, to point out that there are so few examples of that actually happening, that to expect for the rappers themselves to be the agents of this desired change is very unrealistic in my opinion....Aretha and her friends were talking specifically about women and black people ....I pointed out that it was unfortunate that an informed person like me could not come up with any examples of black rappers, that resemble today's artist ,who have made such a change (is that offensive, because apparently you can't either)...today's artists who are on the radio more closely resemble the Beastie Boys on their first record than they do any of the artists you mentioned...or pehaps you expect the 2 Live Crew, Milk or Special Ed to change the misogyny in contemporary hip hop, that's about the quality, and contribution of the majority of today's airplay...
Never once did I say 'the Beasties Boys music is awesome dude"... they don't even crack my top ten favorites as artists, but as people they do...but boy you sure leapt to some assumptions..i guess i should've ignored the Beasties altogether because it didn't advance my argument that much and it appears to have really thrown you off topic....that is my fault, and i will not make the same mistake in the future...
It's almost like you saw Beasties, white, black and your brain turned off, you never once addressed my basic point/question: Where do you, Marlon, see the desired change coming from?
I'm still waiting for an answer.
It pains me to talk about my favorite artist of all time at this point because our infantile conversation is simply unworthy, but you brought him into our mud so I can't ignore it.
2pac, I can't even believe you would bring up pac to validate your arguments...you should be ashamed of yourself for even partially implying that 2pac was a thoughtless puppet at any time in his life, because that's what you've done..his Black Panther mom would smack you upside your head for even implying such a thing...that kid was surrounded by deep thought from day one....i suggest you show more reverance towards his legacy.. this guy was raised by a black panther in NYC and elsewhere, went to a prominent school for the arts and demonstrated an intelligence, human understanding and creativity well beyond his years at every stage of his life....2pac is perhaps the single most infuential artististic genius of the 20th century, you're comparing this guy to the Beastie Boys, seriously man what is that about? i would never, ever, ever presume to do this...
you think I couldn't come up with 2pac? dude, I'm white not retarded...
I guess this is the part where I have to validate myself as a hip hop fan because you read I was white and have never met me (please skip this part, it's not important, but i guess as a white person it's obligatory for my street cred):
Artists you brought up:
Chuck D, i was playing bum rush the show on my mom's record player the week it came out because my uzi weighs a ton...
WISE INTELLIGENT : I'll give you credit for making me look up someone I think of as only as that dude from Poor Righteous Teachers, this reminds me to go find Holy Intellect among my tapes in my closet, thanks (doesn't it seem like you've got a buch of great old hip hop albums and mixes on tape you never listen to any more simply because their on tape? i know i do)
DEAD PREZ : current conscious artists who have nothing to do with this conversation...
BIG DADDY KANE: Long live the Kane, again I see no relevance
AFRIKA BAMBATTA: I was break dancing in Jr. High while searching for the perfect beat, the relevance is?
KRS-ONE: knowlege reigns supreme over nearly everybody, KRS as a puppet, surely you jest
PARIS : I admit I was at a total loss here and embarassed that he's from san francisco
TUPAC :this is hip hop heresy on your part, his mom would be pissed...
XCLAN: never really liked them, but my boys in college on the hoop team did...
BIGGIE was speaking about the ghetto struggle on the corners of Bedstuy from day one...
(i've met, with or photographed 50 cent, Mack 10, lil jon, trillville, lil scrappy, DJ Quik, Rappin Fortay, Black C, Snoop Dogg, Lloyd Banks, Young Buck and others) all of my examples are totally irrelevant to the conversation along with yours....it seems to me that the examples you've brought up only reinforce my point...why have I never heard of Paris, is it because of the choices made in A & R selections? where exactly does the problem lie?
as far as i'm concerned you gave only one example who started near where the Beasties were in time and content, LL ...he's done well for himself with the acting, breaking important barriers there and paving the way for other artists to get paid (and a lack of big time money in the black community is certainly relevant)...there can be no question he's remained relevant, and to be a hearthrob and a closet homosexual (according to Aretha) is no easy task but really at the end of the day you hang your hat on LL...
please oh please mastaregis don't tell me you've hung your argument about misogyny in today's music on Ladies Love Cool James...
we shall ignore this because you obviously would not have selected him first but as far as i can tell he is the only one that was multiplatinum, like the beasties, and was saying little of consequence from day one (the Beasties were in fact spitting misogynistic music from day one and you could not pay them a billion dollars to do so now...this seemed to me to be exactly the types of change that aretha and her friends were looking for...their skin color made them a less than ideal example, as i stated, but i could not come up with any others, which was my point)
I would hope that you are capable of improving my understanding as a human being on the following, which is just my opinion, i neither speak for or represent any other white folks:
I don't think it's realistic to expect the rap game's misogyny to be changed by the rappers themselves because, by and large, those on the radio already, are immature and have little incentive..the old white guys have no stake in black women and clearly can't be expected to lead any meaningful changes...(black women are the original topic of this entire discussion after all but feel free to ignore them again if it suits you...do this at your own peril because Aretha is not to be trifled with)..i think it makes more sense to encourage middle management at labels etc to sign and promote artists like say: the Coup, Crown City Rockers, and Blackalicious in stead of the crap clear channel is forcing down our throat currently where Talib Kwali is the exception not the rule...
perhaps that last portion after the colon would've helped but I assumed an intelligent person versed in hip hop would realize it was implicit...inserting my own choices was not the point...better choices was the point....
I don't think my point was confusing or hard to follow but I say "Beastie Boys" and all hell breaks loose...I highly suggest you to reread what you've written and look at all the tangents you've gone out on...I expect you do have something to say on the subject but who wants to get a lecture when you won't even address the questions i was interested in...
you are speaking to an informed adult, act like it...I would never assume one of aretha's friends to be ignorant but it appears you have...
after I sent you my mail I forwarded it to Aretha and said the following
"oh it's on!
I have a sneaky suspicion this will end up being a conversation about Nash, I knew I shouldn't have thrown that in there, it just muddles things...
oh well, it's true...
don't say anything and we'll see if that happens"
it appears i was wrong, i would've much preferred the basketball diatribe in drawer B because at least that might have been entertaining (and there's plenty of room for argument that i'm wrong).....
perhaps i can learn from this and become even more sensitive about what words I choose to use when addressing people of color...i thought i was pretty good about this, but hey we can all do better...
you've also avoided the subject line of the email which was a genuine question by a person who cares about the answer..and frankly this is a subject that seems long overdue and confounds even the most sensitive white people...I also don't think the black community has any sort of consensus on this topic....
I repeat it now:
I have a strange question for you ...where is the black community on the words "african-american"? I've never liked this term, it doesn't roll of the tongue, it's not really accurate, and it sounds redundant/retarded...i've always preferred black but that certainly has it's own faults and implications...any opinions on the subject?
as I reread this question i wonder if the question itself seems so naive that it led you to make some assumptions about me, and my understanding of race in america...i tend to think the most important questions are often the simplest and am fully secure in my intellect...i look forward to your opinion...
In closing Marlon i wonder if you meant to say that the Beastie Boys in the late 80's were surrounded by a plethora of artists who were simply bringing so much more to the table than they were...it was only natural for them to be embarassed by their lack of contribution artistically while simultaneously experiencing platinum success and rock star status...while Rakim was making my favorite rap song of all time "I ain't no joke" to little fanfare, they were "fighting for their right to party" at an arena near you...this is clearly one of the worst songs ever made...the Beasties knew they were the Elvis of their generation and did something about it ...so perhaps the agent of change for the Beastie Boys was in fact black rappers themselves....and perhaps you tried to tell me it's not fair to compare current artists to the Beasties because they are neither white nor surrounded by a predominance of better popular music...or perhaps you didn't like the basic premise of the question...perhaps you tried to explain the resentment within the industry that the beasties still suffer from... because even though they have helped put hundreds of millions of dollars in black pockets by being the original band to cross over and opening up the suburbs for hip hop artists to dominate the charts...they still started as a punk rock band of posers who were exploiting black music/people for personal gain...(you could go on and on here about how Run DMC, LL, and Whodini were already relevant but nobody can predict the popular success hip hop would've received if this crossover happened later, differently or not at all)...
I know for a fact after all you said, have no idea what you were trying to say...
I made one assertion and asked one question.
I asked how you felt about the words african-american?
I wasn't asking where are the future Beasties or the next 2pac...I was making an assertion that hip hop as currently constituted is poorly prepared to produce either one...
I still assert that black women's desire for a reduction in misogyny can best be implemented by young black men and women in positons of influence in the industry...
perhaps i should've excluded the men...
I look forward to an open minded retort.
Sincerely,
Sam
human being
sam's first email directly Marlon
Marlon...
hi, I'm sam...
my original point was more about how i didn't think that expecting the current MC's to fundamentally change what they do, in regards to content, is realistic (i'm not talking about ones that already use their brains) ...and I pointed out the Beasties as a sad confirmation that there is only one band or MC that I could think of, and they were white...i was trying to point out how the changes people want have to come from within the industry's middle management...it's unrealistic to expect young black men getting paid a ton of money to act exactly that way, to change, when they don't have an incentive....
i wasn't trying to make any statement about how the beastie boys have evolved because they're white (although we could get into a conversation about whether it's more socially acceptable for a white group to change it's stripes, and be embraced by their fan base)...as a 25 year fan of of hip hop i was being really honest, and i still can't come up with a group or MC who started off as the ignorant court minstrels dancing for their gold, like the Beasties, and then evolved into socially conscious human beings, while still making records and remaining somewhat relevant...
please feel free to give some examples, because anyone i can think of was already speaking about more than hoes and beer...the Beasties hold a special place in my heart as a white hip hop fan... they showed me a life arc as human beings that is inspiring....from a life of basically hedonism to one of reflection and contribution (plus I met Adrock playing hoop in Tompkins Square and he was exactly who i expected him to be)...
i was beginning this mail defensively but now I'm changing my tune...perhaps it stung becaue i'm right and you wish it weren't so, that young black hip hop heads don't have an example of a band or MC that matured as you did and made profound changes that coincided with your growth, while remaining relevant...I would like to think that the beasties growth reflects my growth as a person...
I defy you to give me an example...i'm not talking 50 cent making one heroin track on a weak second album...i'm talking completely changing, becoming socially conscious and no longer using excuses to make throw away club banger tunes, but still making records....go ahead, think on it, because I did, and came up with zero....i'm betting you a photograph of your choosing that you cannot come up with one, one example, as arbitrated by aretha....for I am no hypocritical whatever it is you were spouting but a lowly unemployed photographer with nothing to gamble with but my brains and my balls...
i look forward to my post graduate education...
sincerely,
Sam
ps...i thought i'd attach my exact email from before and you can decide for yourself if something got lost in translation... or perhaps somebody was jumping to conclusions because Aretha prefaced my musings with the fact that i'm white...i have the distinct impression that you read what i wrote with a suspicious eye and were merely wating for your chance to pounce, as opposed to trying to understand my point of view, and offer an improved one of your own...or maybe, i'm just dumb white boy who doesn't get it, i will not argue..feel free to answer my question at the end to Aretha...
ps 2 for aretha: Steve Nash is the best basketball player on the planet and it's not that close (it's because he plays basketball like it's futbol)
My Mail to Aretha:
interesting takes....
I'm trying to think of an example in Hip Hop of people who evolved and matured with their content and priorities....I unfortunately could not come up with any black rappers, the only ones i could come up with were the Beastie Boys, who were willing to swig beer and demean women in their early records but eventually grew up and became socially conscious....
as a young man you don't want to hear about social change or giving back, you just want to get paid and get laid..evolving and growing up is difficult (and it sure didn't help the Beasties sell records)...it takes time and perspective...I grew up around some privileged athletes and saw how their sense of entitlement really affected their ability to behave properly and have any sense of the world outside self...people have just been telling them yes for their whole lives...i think that happens for any of these guys as soon as they get a deal, it's really exciting at first, the world is their oyster and big pimpin' only benefits their rep...
I think one of the main problems is that the two people in a position to make positive changes don't have any incentive to change: 1. Predominantly newly rich post/current-adolescent black men with no incentive (in their minds)...and 2. Longtime rich middle aged white men with no incentive to make changes to something they fear might affect their ever shrinking profit margins (these guys clearly have no stake in black women)....
It seems to me the only people capable of making these changes are the ones in the middle, black men & women on the rise in the industry at key positions like A & R and marketing, these guys are capable of making subtle changes to what's hot by simply making better choices about which artists to invest in (of course in most cases they'll have to sell this idea to an old white guy)....
I could talk about Clear Channel but that's a whole different problem
Aretha,
I have a strange question for you ...where is the black community on the words "african-american"? I've never liked this term, it doesn't roll of the tongue, it's not really accurate, and it sounds redundant/retarded...i've always preferred black but that certainly has it's own faults and implications...any opinions on the subject
AND FINALLY Marlon on a happier note, here are some photos, I will mail you one of your choice if you can win our bet, i hope you have something to wager...
> my photos at:
>
> http://www.hypegallery.com/streetphotography/
>
> go to the street photography gallery and search on :
> angel in hollywood,
plastic cup in tahoe, american
> flag in central park, dominoes in oaktown, venice
> beach skater, chesire cat
VISIONS Entertainment & Publicity <visionsep@msn.com> wrote:
BELOW IS AN EXCERPT FROM -GIRLS.... LETS HAVE A MEETING!- BY BEVERLY BOND
I had every intention of writing about hair and beauty products, and my
fabulous experiences as a celebrity DJ over the last month S but then Don
Imus decided to call the Rutgers basketball team ³nappy headed ho¹s² and
³Jigaboos²- sooooS
My first thoughts, besides the obvious of sympathizing with the young ladies
on the Rutgers team were, ³Did this RACIST man just become the catalyst for
the Black Women¹s Empowerment Movement?² It seemed as if the entire country
was suddenly weighing in on the treatment of women and more specifically the
plight of the African-American female.
This certainly wasn¹t the first time that Black women have been insulted and
degraded over FCC regulated airwaves. Last summer an MTV cartoon titled
³Where My Dogs At?² depicted Black women as ³bitches²Sliterally. In it, a
look-alike of rap star Snoop Dogg strolls into a pet shop with two
scantily-clad Black women with dark skin and afro puffs, tethered to
leashes, walking on all fours, and scratching themselves as he orders one of
them to, "Hand me my latte!" The scene ends with the women/²bitches² pissing
and defecating on the floor.
On the popular HBO series OEntourage¹, a group of Black women dressed in
summer attire attend a daytime party for resident rap artist, Saigon, in a
hotel suite. In the scene the girls get on an elevator, get off an elevator,
and simply walk into the party. At the end of the episode the credits for
these girls read OVideo Ho 1 thru Video Ho 4¹. (There was no video nor did
these women participate in Oho-ish behavior¹). In the same episode a White
woman meets the lead character, Vince, at lunch and ends up having sex with
him within a few hours in a store dressing room then later finishing up at a
hotel. However, at the end of the episode the credits for her role read
OWoman¹. On a different episode of the same show one of the lead characters
used the terminology Ovideo hoes¹ when referring to two black women. The
mother of that character then referred to those same black women as
OANIMALS¹.
On a recent episode of OThe Apprentice¹ Donald Trump was so offended by one
of the contestants¹ use of the deplorable term ³white trash² that he fired
him on the spot. He then turned around and gave the winning team a chance to
hang out with his ³good friend² Snoop ³bitches ain¹t shit but hoes-n-tricks²
Dogg; a mixed message to send especially after just firing someone for
offensive and disrespectful language towards Whites.
In 2006 when the Academy Awards gave out an Oscar for the song ³It¹s Hard
Out Here For A Pimp² (written by Three 6 Mafia) many Black women felt like
it was a message to the Black community to ³Keep pimpin¹ them hoes! ³
This ³Imus situation² is the tipping point for a problem that has been
invisible while in plain sight. There is an existing climate that devalues
and dehumanizes Black women and allows all types of stereotypes, insults,
and disrespect to go unchecked and without any repercussions. Eminem
certainly didn¹t fear any backlash when he wrote a song early in his career
disrespecting Black women... TO READ THE ENTIRE BLOG GO TO WWW.VIBEVIXEN.COM
Aretha- GLOBAL FUSION COMMENTS
Excellent ! Your word is bond! You hit it all straight on the dome. The same thing stood out to me about Kevin Lyles "little Timmy" story. I applaud Oprah for doing the show & she damn well does not need any pass to speak out on black culture or women, but I feel this was her opportunity to have rappers like Ludacris & Snoop whom had taken issue with her not having them on the show because of what she felt they represented. It would have been only fair to have those you are speaking about represented in a forum and not just those that you can stomach & pretty much know & control what you will get out of them. Russell Simmons is now the Al Sharpton of hip-hop with the press ops & representing a whole nation of people who never elected him to represent them. Russell is doing a disservice to hip-hop by defending & blaming the deplorable lyrics with poverty. As an African-Ameican growing up in Ghana & being raised by my African family, I have seen a lot of people who live in true poverty because there are levels of poverty that most of these rappers can never imagine ( case & point- if you have a chance check out MTV's documentary on Blood diamonds with Raekwon of Wu Tang, Paul Wall & others). Raekwon could not even stomach the type of poverty that he saw & had to be coaxed out of a van to face it. I have no intention of tryingto compare poverty levels but I never heard any of these people in the type of poverty that someone from the "so called hood" could not stomach use the N word toward one another & disrespect women because of their poverty or use their poverty as an international commodity & representation of we they are as a people. It's really appalling & we all need to stop making excuses- Wrong is wrong regardless of your circumstances. I had to explain to people in Africa & Italy that the N word was an offensive word & that African-American life is not representative of what they see & hear in Hip-Hop. I just wanted to enjoy my time in these places not become a teacher to get out the truth, but the crap that mainstream hip-hop is spreading as African-American culture left me no choice. African-Americans & especially females need to really realize that this is a major international issue because I don't want to go overseas & have people ask me if I can make my ass clap like the girls in hip-hop videos! If I can that's up to my man to be the judge not some random men that know nothing about me but have learned about African-American culture from the globilation of hip-hop.
Poverty is an international problem not any excuse for appalling behavior -so someone needs to explain that to Russell Simmons because he is saying the language is rude but justifying it with the fact that these young men come from poverty, so if we can't abolish poverty then we can't abolish this way of thinking or the language that comes with this way of thinking -THAT'S RIDICULOUS! poverty HAS BEEN AN INTERNATIONAL PROBLEM FOR CENTURIES SO HOW LONG DOES Russell EXPECT US TO WAIT TO CLEAN UP OUR OWN HOMES as well as his! Don't pretend you are not a part of the problem and take press ops to sell your books & products-that's just wrong. Our elders really need to realize that they are part of this huge problem because they allowed it to manifest into an interantional representatiuon of African-American culture without checking it as you would hopefully check your own children from bad disrespectful behavior, but if you have no real respect for self how can you preach to others. I agree with Russell that we shouldn't just berate these rappers because they are & were young people trying to find their way & growing up comes with a lot of change for most people. Let's give these rappers a chance to change before we destroy a huge commodity in Black Culture because hip-hop has made a lot of Black people rich & have ownership in many things from TV networks to record labels, to clothing lines etc.
Hip-hop has created more black millionaires than ever but at what cost? All these millionaires speaking about the hood don't live in the hood & don't realize their own power over the group think of young minds & this is the understanding that needs to get thru in order to change. We are really a culture in turmoil but we are not lost. We need to figure it out within ourselves & not wait for White folks to check us before we realize that wrong is wrong.
I watched CNN last night with Anderson Cooper interviewing the Founder of The Harlem Children Zone, who said he was a little afraid of the repercussions that may come to him on addressing the ills of Hip-hop with the whole "Stop Snitching" idiocy. This is an elder in our community that is trying to lift up young black people , why should he be afraid to speak out against his own people that have been making his life chosen work that much harder. We should not let this thug mentally run our community or intimidate us from doing what's right. This is disgraceful! This is an eloquent gentlemen who has fought for the rights that these young men utilize in their disrespect. He spoke on how Black Music has always been an international commodity for upliftment of Black people worldwide with our contribution of Jazz, R& B & EVEN HIP-HOP IN THE BEGINNING, but now we have taken a 360 deplorable turn to showcase the worst of us. Cameron is just a straight idiot & has recieved more press for his idiocy on 60 minutes than he recived for his whole last album. Where do they find these morons to represent Black People? Black American lifestyle is so much more than hip-hop & we have had a long running history of greatness, struggle & perserverence so let's not put that in the underground while we expose the worst parts of our community.
Let's use this moment in time to truly make change and stop being so defensive toward one another because if there is no problem then there isn't anything to be defensive about. Where's MR. CEO Jay Z & Jimmy Iovine on this topic since they are responsible for the biggest names in hip-hop right now. Where are the parents, where are the young women standing up saying they will no longer subject themselves to be ass clappers & sexual objects in videos, where are the corporations standing up & saying we will no longer sign & promote such offensive behavior? This change will not happen over night & it will take us all as individuals to check ourselves since the hypocrisy in all of this is rapid & each one of us has a part in it. Each one teach One!!
You go Bev!! Black Girls Rock movement is a great catalyst for the movement toward change!
ire cat...
>
this conversation was started by a group of black women talking about imus, the value of words and misogyny in today's hip hop world....it was asserted that rappers need to change...i, as a white man and Beasties fan, chimed in about how i thought it was unrealistic to expect the rappers themselves to change because the beastie boys were the only example, that i could think of, of a group who started out with some low brow lyrics and now would refuse to demean women in any way....i also asked a relatively simple but important question about the words african-american....referencing the Beastie Boys started a whole firestorm of reaction....
i realize the post is hard to follow and long, but i did not want to just ignore what other people had to say...i also think that if you take the time to read it from bottom to top you'll get something out of it, and perhaps have something to say of your own....
i think it's important for Beastie Boys fans to understand the consternation and resentment they still foster in much of the black community for whatever reasons.....after a lot of heated back and forth, the misunderstandings were resolved and i think everyone was the better for challenging themselves to think...
it might help to just read my initial post that started it all...here:
interesting takes....
I'm trying to think of an example in Hip Hop of people who evolved and matured with their content and priorities....I unfortunately could not come up with any black rappers, the only ones i could come up with were the Beastie Boys, who were willing to swig beer and demean women in their early records but eventually grew up and became socially conscious....
as a young man you don't want to hear about social change or giving back, you just want to get paid and get laid..evolving and growing up is difficult (and it sure didn't help the Beasties sell records)...it takes time and perspective...I grew up around some privileged athletes and saw how their sense of entitlement really affected their ability to behave properly and have any sense of the world outside self...people have just been telling them yes for their whole lives...i think that happens for any of these guys as soon as they get a deal, it's really exciting at first, the world is their oyster and big pimpin' only benefits their rep...
I think one of the main problems is that the two people in a position to make positive changes don't have any incentive to change: 1. Predominantly newly rich post/current-adolescent black men with no incentive (in their minds)...and 2. Longtime rich middle aged white men with no incentive to make changes to something they fear might affect their ever shrinking profit margins (these guys clearly have no stake in black women)....
It seems to me the only people capable of making these changes are the ones in the middle, black men & women on the rise in the industry at key positions like A & R and marketing, these guys are capable of making subtle changes to what's hot by simply making better choices about which artists to invest in (of course in most cases they'll have to sell this idea to an old white guy)....
I could talk about Clear Channel but that's a whole different problem
much love,
sam
Aretha,
I have a strange question for you ...where is the black community on the words "african-american"? I've never liked this term, it doesn't roll of the tongue, it's not really accurate, and it sounds redundant/retarded...i've always preferred black but that certainly has it's own faults and implications...any opinions on the subject
this is the rest of the conversation in reverse chronological order:
This ia a long and winding debate that sparked some recent
heated conversation at http://myspace.com/globalfusion
Mums to all:
guys, it HAS been a heated and passionate debate.
I haven't read through all of it but from what I did read
it just seems that the conversation needs to continue
no matter what, all sensitivities aside. can't wait
to read more and chime in.
muMs
Marlon to sam
Hey Sam,
This was very touching. I mean, reading the part about sensitivity - I'm faced with this ALL my life, and everything you wrote, just read it back and picture me saying it - all true. However, I felt in this email you beat me back LOL!
Well, to be honest man, I will save this email and when I have time, go back into it to answer some of those questions and lists etc. I didn't see the picture too clearly from this email, but I forwarded it to another one of my many emails.
Off the bat, you're right about me jumpin in to address my own concerns and we both having the right to react the way we did - you had a focus, i had a different focus. It was originally YOUR conversation, so I think I'd have to say I am wrong to assume you HAD to dialogue with me on JUST that. I wished though, because that's all I was focused on. I kept messing up even spelling it Beatsee before i corrected it to Beatsie, and because of fast typing didn't even realize it was Beastie. Sorry. Man i do see where cultures differ. It is making me get real heartbroken seeing how some things must have just really offended you without you really just having issues. Like you're such a nice guy and my style riled you up and for that I'm sorry. I really am, there's a lot in this very email you wrote that doesn't even want me to focuson hip-hop anymore. I learned an even deeper lesson.
As far as my writing - most are published in print, but online you'd find tons of interviews I did in www.hiphopsite.com and Yahoo which used to be (remember www.Launch.com?)
Also I had a column for 10 years for The Beat Magazine, and was the editor each year for our annual Dancehall Issue.
Also wrote for reggae sites like www.jahworks.org and back in the day, wrote for Rollingstone, Vibe and Urb Magazines.
It's out there, some fun, some conscious, some political, some rootsy, some rudeboy/rudegal, some sexy, some political, some raunchy, some eclectic, some of everything
1
-----Original Message-----
From: sam
To: mastaregis
Sent: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:46 PM
Subject: olive branch
Marlon,
I appreciate you taking the time and energy to read and respond to my mail, your points are well taken...
I think you're right that i was overly sensitive in my response but I do feel it's very important to start slow when you're trying to change hearts and minds of people you don't know. I wasn't offended that you typed in bold, i think that has become a common way for people to break down one another's email conversation. it was the lack of any sort of initial salutation that bugged me. I definitely am overly sensitive, you can ask Aretha, but I consider it one of my strengths that allow me to empathize with my friends and others, i'm not ashamed or embarassed by it. I apologize if you thought i was dismissive or overreacted. I did feel like you completely ignored the thrust of my assertion. But as you stated that is your right, and it was not your intention to play by my rules. As you were not interested in playing by my rules I was not interested in a lecture.
You pointed out you jumped in for your own reasons but I was most interested in starting a conversation about where this desired change can come from. I think it's an important topic that should continue to be addressed.
I most certainly am not the defender of black women, nor should I be.
You jumped in because you didn't like the way I used the Beastie Boys as an example. I completely agree that many artists have and do continue to change. But the enormity of the change that was being asked for was far greater.
I still would love to hear your ideas, if you so choose, on how changes in the industry can be made to come to pass. It sounds like you are well connected and informed within the hip hop community. I do think if we as fans are looking for the artists themselves to start a revolution about their content, we're looking in the wrong place.
Where do you see the best hope for making positive changes in the content?
If you choose to answer I'm sure i would be the better for it. Or perhaps you can send me some links to some articles you've written, read, or participated on that are relevant.
I've attached a photo of Aretha doing what she does to me when i've crossed the line. It's photo quality for a photo printer if you want it....just because you didn't respond to my juvenile bet doesn't mean you can't win, sometimes the only way to win is not to play...just ask our congress about yellowcake....
thanks again for your time, thoughts and energy and i look forward to meeting you if i'm in NYC
yours truly,
sam
ps I can't help it and i don't know if you were doing it intentionally but you kept saying Beatsie Boys when it's Beastie Boys
ps2 if you have any current recommendations on what you think are the best albums (not necessarily conscious), but just flat out best in the last few years i would be eager to know...i've actually dialed back my crate digging significantly lately for whatever reasons...
Marlon to Sam and Aretha
read everything thoroughly and have to admit, I reading back at some you pointed out, did sound "preachy" and sometimes I sit back and wonder - well you know we love KRS, but at times we are "nigga wah you preaching about now c'mon" LOL!
So I understand how that can be taken, then as you say - immediate defensive interaction from that.
Well, let me address both of you - Sam and Aretha - it's been riveting commentary, heated and the beat goes on. Most of all I've learned about what to hold back a lil of in my passion or as they say, 'the heat' of the moment. I didn't know about that Caps thing in non-English countries. No wonder when I get those scam emails from Nigeria, they're always in caps LOL!!!
Wrong huh?
hee hee
love to you both.
1
-----Original Message-----
From: visionsep
To: mastaregis
Cc: sam; mums
Sent: Tue, 1 May 2007 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: TALK ON HIP-HOP:WHAT IS AN AFRICAN -AMERICAN
Wow- This is a prime example of culture and the difference in culture that brings about each cultures' sensitivities. I thought the same as Marlon that Sam was making a big deal and taking offense to a disrespect of not addressing one by his name and using the words "look below in bold" and then answering in bold that was never meant to be there. I also thought the same as Sam when he expressed, that mentioning the Beastie Boys was the least of his points in the original e-mail, but that was the trigger that set off Marlon's desired debate because his sensitivities to this comes from him being a black man in the music world, that sees White people on a regular basis giving out accolades to a beastie boys while consciously our subconsciously omitting, downplaying or just straight degrading the contributions of their black counterparts and feeling it is ok to do so without being called on it. I think you did miss the point of Sam's entire initial e-mail by focusing on the beastie boys partly or wholly because of this.
When I first read it, and saw the beastie boys comment , I had the same sensitivities and reactions, but I understood what Sam was trying to say mainly because I know the person behind the words. I however did not agree with it because I didn't see a criteria that they would fit in as a true comparison of the main subject of today's mainstream hip-hop industry and it's effects on women and black culture.
Our sensitivities come from the culture or cultures that created us. In American culture not looking someone in the eye displays a sign of dishonesty, but in many cultures not looking someone in the eye is a sign of respect. In black Christian churches -loud expression, dancing, singing loudly and wearing your Sunday best is encouraged while in a black Muslim mosque this would be disrespectful but the are all praising one God! Cultures , religion and all the influences and things that create who we are depending on a word, look, lack of look, dress, action, lack of action etc. can create complete enemies amongst people that basically have the same foundation and beliefs. We have to be diligent about really listening as well as speaking up. We have to make sure to really teach and learn about our cultural sensitivities and understand it as that when it fits without being defensive of it. As a an African or a west Indian the mere sucking of your teeth in a particular context can become explosive but to a White American that would seem absurd that such a thing can become so explosive.
Marlon addressing Sam's email
Marlon,
once again I begin with Hello, and I have enough respect for Aretha's choice in friends to address you by name...please show me the same respect...i would ask you to mull over my email, and converse with Aretha before forcing me to once again spend 5, that's right five, hours reading and replying to what you've written...i've given what i'm writing some thought, i expect the same...
Sam, with all due respect - by not addressing you by name, it doesn't automatically mean I'm not respectful. If you hadn't done the same to me, I honestly wouldn't have even given it thought. AT ALL. But sorry you were offended, Sam
I see you talk about this 5 hours writing, that is cool, but isn't that on you? And now just like the name, are we comparing efforts and want me to state the hours I'm writing on replying? Assume the positive brother, because I've spent a long amount of time writing back to you. It's obvious, but if we doing hour counts, let's say I spent hours too. Little stuff like this unfortunately kills the debate at hand. Comments about Beatsie Boys, which was always the reason I got involved, is what we should focus on. I only addressed Aretha by name, because I wanted to differentiate between the Larry Bird comments she'd made, and then focus on you after. We're all giving this deep thought Sam, so c'mon stop being so ultra sensitive. If I didn't respect you, you think I'd even be responding to you directly? I'd send off a lil email to Aretha and that would be the end of it. I see a lot of these emails coming directly from Aretha's forwards, I'm directly replying to you, isn't that respect? Let's not digress man...my style is passionate, it's VERY upfront, but it's not disrespectful.
you forward my email, with zero salutation or even intimations of respect, and the following instructions
"see below in bold",
what the hell kind of a way is that to start a conversation with someone you've never met...are you trying to change hearts and minds or lecture me on my inadequacies....i'm trying to ignore this but you sure aren't making any friends out of the gate....
Look how much time you spending on petty things? Ask Aretha, 2 of us have been going back and forth on something TOTALLY different to this conversation. Just us. I reply to her in bold, so to the eye, she knows my reply opposed to the original writing or email from hers. It's not to be disrespectful, it is actually taking the time to make sure you see where my comments are as opposed to yours, it's actually the opposite - very respectful. A part of me just wants to abort this, because I already see by you spending 5 hours, a part of which you're assuming and concentrating on so many petty things like my writing fonts, addressing you by name and TOTALLY assuming I'm not respectful, email might be less of a good cause VS us meeting and dialoguing in person. So I'll address this and then I'm audi, because it's too much unnecessary effort to clarify things, that to me, are so irrelevant. I'm respectful, I kid around at the end, I enlighten, I give different perspectives, I try to act in third person, I ask questions and most of all, if you read in the beginning, I even commended you on some points we r not really engaged in discussing. If you want me to do more and just say, "Sam you're right on everything" and that will satisfy you - then you're wrong. I was brought in to enlighten you on a different perspective, if that doesn't sit well with you, you know this dialogue is going nowhere, and we're wasting each others time.
this is the course of events as I saw them...
Aretha and her friends were having a conversation, started by the Imus situation about rap music and black women...
Aretha forwarded me her email on the subject..I responded with my thoughts and a couple of genuine questions...you disagree with what I've said and request to educate the ignorant white boy on the subject...i'm happy for the opportunity to be educated and send you a mail requesting said education..i tried, unsucessfully, to clarify my statements, and offer you a small bet to with all i'm capable of wagering (and frankly I think my pictures say something about me)...you send me two emails about everything but my questions..
Sam, I specifically said in the beginning and Aretha clarified this too, that I came in talking about your Beatsie Boys comment. Everything I wrote was surrounding that, nothing else. What you offered, if I didn't respond, simply means I'm not interested re bet, pics or what have you. It's not disrespectful, this is something you brought to the table, does that mean I HAVE to respond or partake in this bet? I'm focusing on the only thing I came into dialogue on, notice I didn't get into anything else re all OTHER things you and Aretha were discussing, but again, I did quickly commend you on those points you made. I don't have time for more Sam, sorry. My main objective, which is not going to change, is to enlighten you on a different perspective. That's what's killing the world. I've heard your perspective, just hear mine, hear others. What's so frightening about that? There's tons of folks that hold your perspective and frankly don't want to know there's any other. But that Sam, is ignorance - there's a world we live in with many other perspectives and fact over opinion should make folks open to learning the facts. I listed facts. You said you can only think of Beatsie Boys, I said I can think of others. And others can probably think of others. You gonna come now and say no? OK, no then...so what's the debate? Let's leave it at that. My work is done, carry on with your perspective and live happily ever after...I can argue with ignorance, but I can't argue with arrogance.
First of all:
I feel extremely privileged to hear Aretha's opinions on black culture and am proud that she respects me enough to share a dialogue amongst her friends on a topic that she knows would interest me...I think all people should ask questions, challenge their friends to think outside their own box and live with a healthy curiosity... I do not send her idle thoughts or throwaway arguments..i know who her friends are and am not interested in embarassing myself for the hell of it...
that being said i think it's absurd to think that I as a white person who has been around and appreciated black culture most of my life would have nothing to contribute...frankly i think the best ideas for any topic often come from people who have a different experience or background because they see things differently, and this can help...
OK, point well taken. Granted, but keep this in mind, this doesn't make you an expert or know the ins or other continuously changing perspectives within the black diaspora. We ourselves as blacks don't even know this as experts, it is a learning process.
(please notice right off the bat how you did not talk about black women at all, not even a little bit! One throway line about Latifah? Once again the sisters get kicked to the curb...this was a conversation started by women, about women, for women and you pretend to help them by hijacking the conversation for your agenda as a man, this is troubling...it wasn't about you, me or the Beastie Boys Marlon!)
But Sam, I see you have wrongly again started to stray, MY INCLUSION into this topic was about the Beatsie Boys, that's it. You defender of the black women's tribe now? My mother black as she born yuhknow, so watch your given path rasta. I brought in Latifah as an example to MY FOCUS to the Beatsie Boys issue. Why you can't get that, I am not sure? She was an example. I wasn't part of you and Aretha's conversation about black women, or the African-American term, or anything else. I STATED THAT CLEARLY, read and keep focus on me, on what I was contributing. Iz like a man was brought into building a house as the carpenter, aka dealing with wood, yet you asking me to seal pipes, cut the lawn, do the lanscaping, and worse yet, fix a meal in the kitchen. I AM A CARPENTER. And you going off on me using exclamation marks. You don't wanna take it there my yute, because is hotta fya will start if you don't control yuh likkle emotions and emotives, trust!
it had been asserted in the emails that rappers need to change...
I was trying, unsuccessfully apparently, to point out that there are so few examples of that actually happening,
Actually according to the dialogue I'm focusing on, you have pointed out (TWICE) that you can think of ZERO examples, not "few" as you mentioned. You came up with 1 - Beatsie Boys. That's where I came in, end of story.
that to expect for the rappers themselves to be the agents of this desired change is very unrealistic in my opinion....Aretha and her friends were talking specifically about women and black people ....I pointed out that it was unfortunate that an informed person like me could not come up with any examples of black rappers, that resemble today's artist ,who have made such a change (is that offensive, because apparently you can't either)...today's artists who are on the radio more closely resemble the Beastie Boys on their first record than they do any of the artists you mentioned...or pehaps you expect the 2 Live Crew, Milk or Special Ed to change the misogyny in contemporary hip hop, that's about the quality, and contribution of the majority of today's airplay...
2Pac aka Digital Underground, Jazzy Jeff aka Jazzy Jeff & Fresh Prince are who i mentioned off the bat fits Sam, even Will Smith has transformed tremendously from his short pants, goofy jovial approach. The other rappers were to enlighten you on the positive change, contributions, socially they've made etc. If you want more, Rakim, I listed LL - he's evolved tremendously. No, he's not on some campaign EXACTLY like the Beatsie Boys, no one is. No artist is the same Sam. It's like you posed a no-win equation. You hold up Beatsie Boys as unique individual artists - which they are - but at the sametime use a BROAD goal and then say, nobody can fit the mode of these cats. YES, no one because no one is the same. But there are tons of others who fit into your definition of "evolving" and making positive contributions to society and the world from who they were before their earlier days. If you can't find any black rappers to compare, it's simply because your argument is flawed in the first place. Of course you can't find anyone, because Sam, there is no one like Beatsie Boys. You talking about a catepillar changing into a butterfly and then asking and posing arguments about no other insects change like this. Ah..ah...well, yes. A Catepillar is the only one. But don't bring in ridiculous attachments about no one other than BB has effected positive change or evolution of being conscious. Your argument on how you are so arrogantly constructing it, is in itself flawed in the first place.
Never once did I say 'the Beasties Boys music is awesome dude"... they don't even crack my top ten favorites as artists, but as people they do...but boy you sure leapt to some assumptions..i guess i should've ignored the Beasties altogether because it didn't advance my argument that much and it appears to have really thrown you off topic....that is my fault, and i will not make the same mistake in the future...
Funny you write that, I just mentioned that before above. So thank you, I was trying to enlighten you and I never said you loved their music DUDE
It's almost like you saw Beasties, white, black and your brain turned off, you never once addressed my basic point/question: Where do you, Marlon, see the desired change coming from?
I'm still waiting for an answer.
And you will be waiting forever, because AGAIN, I never came into the conversation to answer your question sir.
It pains me to talk about my favorite artist of all time at this point because our infantile conversation is simply unworthy, but you brought him into our mud so I can't ignore it.
2pac, I can't even believe you would bring up pac to validate your arguments...you should be ashamed of yourself for even partially implying that 2pac was a thoughtless puppet at any time in his life, because that's what you've done..his Black Panther mom would smack you upside your head for even implying such a thing...that kid was surrounded by deep thought from day one....i suggest you show more reverance towards his legacy.. this guy was raised by a black panther in NYC and elsewhere, went to a prominent school for the arts and demonstrated an intelligence, human understanding and creativity well beyond his years at every stage of his life....2pac is perhaps the single most infuential artististic genius of the 20th century, you're comparing this guy to the Beastie Boys, seriously man what is that about? i would never, ever, ever presume to do this...
you think I couldn't come up with 2pac? dude, I'm white not retarded...
I never said you were, never once did. But if that's how you feel I approached you, my bad. Did I say Beatsie Boys were thoughtless puppets? C'mon man, you going all over the place. He was brought in under your simple equation of someone being one way in the beginninig (aka Beatsie Boys) to evolving differently. 2Pac would never revert back to those days, he evolved. Doesn't mean he sees it as being retarded or puppet-like, but he's evolved, just like Beatsie Boys, he still would probably perform his old stuff, but he's evolved, that's all I was showing you. That's all I'm focused on. You're not, but for our conversation and dialogue to last shorter than 5 hours, maybe you need to refocus on the ONLY thing I'm still focused on.
I guess this is the part where I have to validate myself as a hip hop fan because you read I was white and have never met me (please skip this part, it's not important, but i guess as a white person it's obligatory for my street cred):
Artists you brought up:
Chuck D, i was playing bum rush the show on my mom's record player the week it came out because my uzi weighs a ton...
WISE INTELLIGENT : I'll give you credit for making me look up someone I think of as only as that dude from Poor Righteous Teachers, this reminds me to go find Holy Intellect among my tapes in my closet, thanks (doesn't it seem like you've got a buch of great old hip hop albums and mixes on tape you never listen to any more simply because their on tape? i know i do)
DEAD PREZ : current conscious artists who have nothing to do with this conversation...
BIG DADDY KANE: Long live the Kane, again I see no relevance
AFRIKA BAMBATTA: I was break dancing in Jr. High while searching for the perfect beat, the relevance is?
KRS-ONE: knowlege reigns supreme over nearly everybody, KRS as a puppet, surely you jest
PARIS : I admit I was at a total loss here and embarassed that he's from san francisco
TUPAC :this is hip hop heresy on your part, his mom would be pissed...
XCLAN: never really liked them, but my boys in college on the hoop team did...
BIGGIE was speaking about the ghetto struggle on the corners of Bedstuy from day one...
(i've met, with or photographed 50 cent, Mack 10, lil jon, trillville, lil scrappy, DJ Quik, Rappin Fortay, Black C, Snoop Dogg, Lloyd Banks, Young Buck and others) all of my examples are totally irrelevant to the conversation along with yours....it seems to me that the examples you've brought up only reinforce my point...why have I never heard of Paris, is it because of the choices made in A & R selections? where exactly does the problem lie?
as far as i'm concerned you gave only one example who started near where the Beasties were in time and content, LL ..he's done well for himself with the acting, breaking important barriers there and paving the way for other artists to get paid (and a lack of big time money in the black community is certainly relevant)...there can be no question he's remained relevant, and to be a hearthrob and a closet homosexual (according to Aretha) is no easy task but really at the end of the day you hang your hat on LL...
please oh please mastaregis don't tell me you've hung your argument about misogyny in today's music on Ladies Love Cool James...
I ignored all your white boy validations, didn't even read it because you don't know me man, the race thing isn't at the forefront of my mindset, unlike typical persons of color from America. I similar to Aretha, we organically and naturally don't think like your typical. I not even gonna go into my published as well as non-published interviews and talks with artists, including your very own 2Pac and Beatsie Boys, I know you got issues just by you feeling you have to do this with me. You don't it wasn't my focus, AGAIN. Iz like you just want to connect, and for that I'm happy, we're all persons wanting to connect. Some for the wrong reasons of what have you, but my reasoning is to connect and enlighten you on a sole point you made, which in itself by your very own admittance, was flawed. No need to tes' me with your "knowledge" about rappers, I know personally (let's say since 1994) persons who's slept with him. And I could go on for years about all your heroes and my heroes, again, that was never my focus. I listed a bunch of folks, yet you somehow come up with LL as the one I hold up. Yet you say I just merely mentioned Latifah. Sam, you just like to argue irrelevantly, so for this, I gotta sign off, I will meet you someday, carry on...I gotta stop the dialogue on what my focus was as regards to you, because you losing focus. I will quickly address the other stuff...out of respect of course Sam.
we shall ignore this because you obviously would not have selected him first but as far as i can tell he is the only one that was multiplatinum, like the beasties, and was saying little of consequence from day one (the Beasties were in fact spitting misogynistic music from day one and you could not pay them a billion dollars to do so now...this seemed to me to be exactly the types of change that aretha and her friends were looking for...their skin color made them a less than ideal example, as i stated, but i could not come up with any others, which was my point)
cool, maybe come up with folks in the first place who fit into your "Beatsie Boys" category, then pose the highly broad expectation, keeping in perspective all the factors contributing to the "Beatsie Boys" category in the first place - then we can see if we even have a topic for discussion.
I would hope that you are capable of improving my understanding as a human being on the following, which is just my opinion, i neither speak for or represent any other white folks:
I don't think it's realistic to expect the rap game's misogyny to be changed by the rappers themselves because, by and large, those on the radio already, are immature and have little incentive..the old white guys have no stake in black women and clearly can't be expected to lead any meaningful changes...(black women are the original topic of this entire discussion after all but feel free to ignore them again if it suits you...do this at your own peril because Aretha is not to be trifled with)..i think it makes more sense to encourage middle management at labels etc to sign and promote artists like say: the Coup, Crown City Rockers, and Blackalicious in stead of the crap clear channel is forcing down our throat currently where Talib Kwali is the exception not the rule...
perhaps that last portion after the colon would've helped but I assumed an intelligent person versed in hip hop would realize it was implicit...inserting my own choices was not the point...better choices was the point....
I don't think my point was confusing or hard to follow but I say "Beastie Boys" and all hell breaks loose...
WRONG AGAIN - I said it from the very beginning. I said the fact that you said "there are no black rappers" was why as you misinterpret - that all hell broke lose. It was never about downcrying Beatsie Boys. It was your misinformed way of comparing them, by mentioning there's no black rappers to compare to their evolution. Read properly brethren, it was in my very first email.
I highly suggest you to reread what you've written and look at all the tangents you've gone out on...I expect you do have something to say on the subject but who wants to get a lecture when you won't even address the questions i was interested in...
I came in for clarity on what I came in for, that's it. If you can't argue or debate or receive lecture keeping that in perspective, we always gonna have problems. Again, I'm the carpenter (who can cook and mend pipes and landscape) but I was brought into this as a carpenter ONLY. That's all my contribution and time and focus from the beginning will allow. Not because Aretha is my dear friend, means I need to build the entire house because you want me to. Find other builders...they are out there.
you are speaking to an informed adult, act like it...I would never assume one of aretha's friends to be ignorant but it appears you have...
We're all informed, but all of us are ignorant of some things. It is why Aretha put us together my yute. I did act like it, I never went into ordering you around to respect me. Seem like you have issues on a lot, which I can't help you or would even venture on, iz plenty! But I never ever disrespected you once I started to personally address you DIRECTLY. By not calling you by your name in email, owwwww, that's soooooo disrespectful, please...man I respect you that's why I even replying.
after I sent you my mail I forwarded it to Aretha and said the following
"oh it's on!
I have a sneaky suspicion this will end up being a conversation about Nash, I knew I shouldn't have thrown that in there, it just muddles things...
oh well, it's true...
don't say anything and we'll see if that happens"
it appears i was wrong, i would've much preferred the basketball diatribe in drawer B because at least that might have been entertaining (and there's plenty of room for argument that i'm wrong).....
perhaps i can learn from this and become even more sensitive about what words I choose to use when addressing people of color...i thought i was pretty good about this, but hey we can all do better...
you've also avoided the subject line of the email which was a genuine question by a person who cares about the answer..and frankly this is a subject that seems long overdue and confounds even the most sensitive white people...I also don't think the black community has any sort of consensus on this topic....
I repeat it now:
I have a strange question for you ...where is the black community on the words "african-american"? I've never liked this term, it doesn't roll of the tongue, it's not really accurate, and it sounds redundant/retarded...i've always preferred black but that certainly has it's own faults and implications...any opinions on the subject?
as I reread this question i wonder if the question itself seems so naive that it led you to make some assumptions about me, and my understanding of race in america...i tend to think the most important questions are often the simplest and am fully secure in my intellect...i look forward to your opinion...
sorry but none of these concern me, don't have the time based on why I came into dialogue. Sorry, but I am responding so you don't come now and say I disrespected you. Yuh Aretha already knows this, you don't, so I have to be clear, Sam.
In closing Marlon i wonder if you meant to say that the Beastie Boys in the late 80's were surrounded by a plethora of artists who were simply bringing so much more to the table than they were...it was only natural for them to be embarassed by their lack of contribution artistically while simultaneously experiencing platinum success and rock star status...while Rakim was making my favorite rap song of all time "I ain't no joke" to little fanfare, they were "fighting for their right to party" at an arena near you...this is clearly one of the worst songs ever made...the Beasties knew they were the Elvis of their generation and did something about it ...so perhaps the agent of change for the Beastie Boys was in fact black rappers themselves....and perhaps you tried to tell me it's not fair to compare current artists to the Beasties because they are neither white nor surrounded by a predominance of better popular music...or perhaps you didn't like the basic premise of the question...perhaps you tried to explain the resentment within the industry that the beasties still suffer from... because even though they have helped put hundreds of millions of dollars in black pockets by being the original band to cross over and opening up the suburbs for hip hop artists to dominate the charts...they still started as a punk rock band of posers who were exploiting black music/people for personal gain...(you could go on and on here about how Run DMC, LL, and Whodini were already relevant but nobody can predict the popular success hip hop would've received if this crossover happened later, differently or not at all)...
I know for a fact after all you said, have no idea what you were trying to say...
I made one assertion and asked one question.
I asked how you felt about the words african-american?
I wasn't asking where are the future Beasties or the next 2pac...I was making an assertion that hip hop as currently constituted is poorly prepared to produce either one...
I still assert that black women's desire for a reduction in misogyny can best be implemented by young black men and women in positons of influence in the industry...
perhaps i should've excluded the men...
I look forward to an open minded retort.
The open retort is for you to read Sam, you totally didn't get (even though I so clearly stated and Aretha even confirmed) I was only responding to PART of your concerns. It is my choice, give me that. And I stuck to that, bypassed (still bypassing) all the other stuff you continue to bring in. Actually, addressing me doesn't even mean I HAVE to adhere to what I wasn't focused on in the first place. Just Beatsie Boys vs no black rappers and the fine line of flawed arguments attached to the debate. If you remember I was even so clear in asking repeatedly, what's your criteria. I asked this twice, using different words - but after this email, by you own confirmation, I guess by me arguing, you see how you're throwing out 1 group, then one era, then start to go into so much that just confuses arguing and focusing on a debate to make any sense out of it. I tried to ride the rollercoaster of this direction and hopefully something good came out of it. And although common amongst white guys or gals, to be FRANKLY honest, my email towards a black person writing exactly what you wrote, would be the same or even more heated. In fact, if that person were to even use someone other than Beatsie Boys, I'd be responding similarly. So not sure if it's American mindset, but if you could get past that whole insecurity about having to flex or validate on so many levels your whiteness as regards to a black culture or artform, it will eliminate a lot of issues you carrry. I never was focused on you as a white person or your lack of, or high level of knowledge on this topic. What I was focused on was your ignorance on this topic, the same ignorance - trust me Aretha knows this - that us suffer from as well. And I don't mean all the other topics of your concern, I mean only and only why and what I was focused on.
Take care Sam
Sincerely,
Sam
human being
Sam's unedited mail to Marlon
Marlon,
once again I begin with Hello, and I have enough respect for Aretha's choice in friends to address you by name...please show me the same respect...i would ask you to mull over my email, and converse with Aretha before forcing me to once again spend 5, that's right five, hours reading and replying to what you've written...i've given what i'm writing some thought, i expect the same...
you forward my email, with zero salutation or even intimations of respect, and the following instructions
"see below in bold",
what the hell kind of a way is that to start a conversation with someone you've never met...are you trying to change hearts and minds or lecture me on my inadequacies....i'm trying to ignore this but you sure aren't making any friends out of the gate....
this is the course of events as I saw them...
Aretha and her friends were having a conversation, started by the Imus situation about rap music and black women...
Aretha forwarded me her email on the subject..I responded with my thoughts and a couple of genuine questions...you disagree with what I've said and request to educate the ignorant white boy on the subject...i'm happy for the opportunity to be educated and send you a mail requesting said education..i tried, unsucessfully, to clarify my statements, and offer you a small bet to with all i'm capable of wagering (and frankly I think my pictures say something about me)...you send me two emails about everything but my questions..
First of all:
I feel extremely privileged to hear Aretha's opinions on black culture and am proud that she respects me enough to share a dialogue amongst her friends on a topic that she knows would interest me...I think all people should ask questions, challenge their friends to think outside their own box and live with a healthy curiosity... I do not send her idle thoughts or throwaway arguments..i know who her friends are and am not interested in embarassing myself for the hell of it...
that being said i think it's absurd to think that I as a white person who has been around and appreciated black culture most of my life would have nothing to contribute...frankly i think the best ideas for any topic often come from people who have a different experience or background because they see things differently, and this can help...
(please notice right off the bat how you did not talk about black women at all, not even a little bit! One throway line about Latifah? Once again the sisters get kicked to the curb...this was a conversation started by women, about women, for women and you pretend to help them by hijacking the conversation for your agenda as a man, this is troubling...it wasn't about you, me or the Beastie Boys Marlon!)
it had been asserted in the emails that rappers need to change...
I was trying, unsuccessfully apparently, to point out that there are so few examples of that actually happening, that to expect for the rappers themselves to be the agents of this desired change is very unrealistic in my opinion....Aretha and her friends were talking specifically about women and black people ....I pointed out that it was unfortunate that an informed person like me could not come up with any examples of black rappers, that resemble today's artist ,who have made such a change (is that offensive, because apparently you can't either)...today's artists who are on the radio more closely resemble the Beastie Boys on their first record than they do any of the artists you mentioned...or pehaps you expect the 2 Live Crew, Milk or Special Ed to change the misogyny in contemporary hip hop, that's about the quality, and contribution of the majority of today's airplay...
Never once did I say 'the Beasties Boys music is awesome dude"... they don't even crack my top ten favorites as artists, but as people they do...but boy you sure leapt to some assumptions..i guess i should've ignored the Beasties altogether because it didn't advance my argument that much and it appears to have really thrown you off topic....that is my fault, and i will not make the same mistake in the future...
It's almost like you saw Beasties, white, black and your brain turned off, you never once addressed my basic point/question: Where do you, Marlon, see the desired change coming from?
I'm still waiting for an answer.
It pains me to talk about my favorite artist of all time at this point because our infantile conversation is simply unworthy, but you brought him into our mud so I can't ignore it.
2pac, I can't even believe you would bring up pac to validate your arguments...you should be ashamed of yourself for even partially implying that 2pac was a thoughtless puppet at any time in his life, because that's what you've done..his Black Panther mom would smack you upside your head for even implying such a thing...that kid was surrounded by deep thought from day one....i suggest you show more reverance towards his legacy.. this guy was raised by a black panther in NYC and elsewhere, went to a prominent school for the arts and demonstrated an intelligence, human understanding and creativity well beyond his years at every stage of his life....2pac is perhaps the single most infuential artististic genius of the 20th century, you're comparing this guy to the Beastie Boys, seriously man what is that about? i would never, ever, ever presume to do this...
you think I couldn't come up with 2pac? dude, I'm white not retarded...
I guess this is the part where I have to validate myself as a hip hop fan because you read I was white and have never met me (please skip this part, it's not important, but i guess as a white person it's obligatory for my street cred):
Artists you brought up:
Chuck D, i was playing bum rush the show on my mom's record player the week it came out because my uzi weighs a ton...
WISE INTELLIGENT : I'll give you credit for making me look up someone I think of as only as that dude from Poor Righteous Teachers, this reminds me to go find Holy Intellect among my tapes in my closet, thanks (doesn't it seem like you've got a buch of great old hip hop albums and mixes on tape you never listen to any more simply because their on tape? i know i do)
DEAD PREZ : current conscious artists who have nothing to do with this conversation...
BIG DADDY KANE: Long live the Kane, again I see no relevance
AFRIKA BAMBATTA: I was break dancing in Jr. High while searching for the perfect beat, the relevance is?
KRS-ONE: knowlege reigns supreme over nearly everybody, KRS as a puppet, surely you jest
PARIS : I admit I was at a total loss here and embarassed that he's from san francisco
TUPAC :this is hip hop heresy on your part, his mom would be pissed...
XCLAN: never really liked them, but my boys in college on the hoop team did...
BIGGIE was speaking about the ghetto struggle on the corners of Bedstuy from day one...
(i've met, with or photographed 50 cent, Mack 10, lil jon, trillville, lil scrappy, DJ Quik, Rappin Fortay, Black C, Snoop Dogg, Lloyd Banks, Young Buck and others) all of my examples are totally irrelevant to the conversation along with yours....it seems to me that the examples you've brought up only reinforce my point...why have I never heard of Paris, is it because of the choices made in A & R selections? where exactly does the problem lie?
as far as i'm concerned you gave only one example who started near where the Beasties were in time and content, LL ...he's done well for himself with the acting, breaking important barriers there and paving the way for other artists to get paid (and a lack of big time money in the black community is certainly relevant)...there can be no question he's remained relevant, and to be a hearthrob and a closet homosexual (according to Aretha) is no easy task but really at the end of the day you hang your hat on LL...
please oh please mastaregis don't tell me you've hung your argument about misogyny in today's music on Ladies Love Cool James...
we shall ignore this because you obviously would not have selected him first but as far as i can tell he is the only one that was multiplatinum, like the beasties, and was saying little of consequence from day one (the Beasties were in fact spitting misogynistic music from day one and you could not pay them a billion dollars to do so now...this seemed to me to be exactly the types of change that aretha and her friends were looking for...their skin color made them a less than ideal example, as i stated, but i could not come up with any others, which was my point)
I would hope that you are capable of improving my understanding as a human being on the following, which is just my opinion, i neither speak for or represent any other white folks:
I don't think it's realistic to expect the rap game's misogyny to be changed by the rappers themselves because, by and large, those on the radio already, are immature and have little incentive..the old white guys have no stake in black women and clearly can't be expected to lead any meaningful changes...(black women are the original topic of this entire discussion after all but feel free to ignore them again if it suits you...do this at your own peril because Aretha is not to be trifled with)..i think it makes more sense to encourage middle management at labels etc to sign and promote artists like say: the Coup, Crown City Rockers, and Blackalicious in stead of the crap clear channel is forcing down our throat currently where Talib Kwali is the exception not the rule...
perhaps that last portion after the colon would've helped but I assumed an intelligent person versed in hip hop would realize it was implicit...inserting my own choices was not the point...better choices was the point....
I don't think my point was confusing or hard to follow but I say "Beastie Boys" and all hell breaks loose...I highly suggest you to reread what you've written and look at all the tangents you've gone out on...I expect you do have something to say on the subject but who wants to get a lecture when you won't even address the questions i was interested in...
you are speaking to an informed adult, act like it...I would never assume one of aretha's friends to be ignorant but it appears you have...
after I sent you my mail I forwarded it to Aretha and said the following
"oh it's on!
I have a sneaky suspicion this will end up being a conversation about Nash, I knew I shouldn't have thrown that in there, it just muddles things...
oh well, it's true...
don't say anything and we'll see if that happens"
it appears i was wrong, i would've much preferred the basketball diatribe in drawer B because at least that might have been entertaining (and there's plenty of room for argument that i'm wrong).....
perhaps i can learn from this and become even more sensitive about what words I choose to use when addressing people of color...i thought i was pretty good about this, but hey we can all do better...
you've also avoided the subject line of the email which was a genuine question by a person who cares about the answer..and frankly this is a subject that seems long overdue and confounds even the most sensitive white people...I also don't think the black community has any sort of consensus on this topic....
I repeat it now:
I have a strange question for you ...where is the black community on the words "african-american"? I've never liked this term, it doesn't roll of the tongue, it's not really accurate, and it sounds redundant/retarded...i've always preferred black but that certainly has it's own faults and implications...any opinions on the subject?
as I reread this question i wonder if the question itself seems so naive that it led you to make some assumptions about me, and my understanding of race in america...i tend to think the most important questions are often the simplest and am fully secure in my intellect...i look forward to your opinion...
In closing Marlon i wonder if you meant to say that the Beastie Boys in the late 80's were surrounded by a plethora of artists who were simply bringing so much more to the table than they were...it was only natural for them to be embarassed by their lack of contribution artistically while simultaneously experiencing platinum success and rock star status...while Rakim was making my favorite rap song of all time "I ain't no joke" to little fanfare, they were "fighting for their right to party" at an arena near you...this is clearly one of the worst songs ever made...the Beasties knew they were the Elvis of their generation and did something about it ...so perhaps the agent of change for the Beastie Boys was in fact black rappers themselves....and perhaps you tried to tell me it's not fair to compare current artists to the Beasties because they are neither white nor surrounded by a predominance of better popular music...or perhaps you didn't like the basic premise of the question...perhaps you tried to explain the resentment within the industry that the beasties still suffer from... because even though they have helped put hundreds of millions of dollars in black pockets by being the original band to cross over and opening up the suburbs for hip hop artists to dominate the charts...they still started as a punk rock band of posers who were exploiting black music/people for personal gain...(you could go on and on here about how Run DMC, LL, and Whodini were already relevant but nobody can predict the popular success hip hop would've received if this crossover happened later, differently or not at all)...
I know for a fact after all you said, have no idea what you were trying to say...
I made one assertion and asked one question.
I asked how you felt about the words african-american?
I wasn't asking where are the future Beasties or the next 2pac...I was making an assertion that hip hop as currently constituted is poorly prepared to produce either one...
I still assert that black women's desire for a reduction in misogyny can best be implemented by young black men and women in positons of influence in the industry...
perhaps i should've excluded the men...
I look forward to an open minded retort.
Sincerely,
Sam
human being
sam's first email directly Marlon
Marlon...
hi, I'm sam...
my original point was more about how i didn't think that expecting the current MC's to fundamentally change what they do, in regards to content, is realistic (i'm not talking about ones that already use their brains) ...and I pointed out the Beasties as a sad confirmation that there is only one band or MC that I could think of, and they were white...i was trying to point out how the changes people want have to come from within the industry's middle management...it's unrealistic to expect young black men getting paid a ton of money to act exactly that way, to change, when they don't have an incentive....
i wasn't trying to make any statement about how the beastie boys have evolved because they're white (although we could get into a conversation about whether it's more socially acceptable for a white group to change it's stripes, and be embraced by their fan base)...as a 25 year fan of of hip hop i was being really honest, and i still can't come up with a group or MC who started off as the ignorant court minstrels dancing for their gold, like the Beasties, and then evolved into socially conscious human beings, while still making records and remaining somewhat relevant...
please feel free to give some examples, because anyone i can think of was already speaking about more than hoes and beer...the Beasties hold a special place in my heart as a white hip hop fan... they showed me a life arc as human beings that is inspiring....from a life of basically hedonism to one of reflection and contribution (plus I met Adrock playing hoop in Tompkins Square and he was exactly who i expected him to be)...
i was beginning this mail defensively but now I'm changing my tune...perhaps it stung becaue i'm right and you wish it weren't so, that young black hip hop heads don't have an example of a band or MC that matured as you did and made profound changes that coincided with your growth, while remaining relevant...I would like to think that the beasties growth reflects my growth as a person...
I defy you to give me an example...i'm not talking 50 cent making one heroin track on a weak second album...i'm talking completely changing, becoming socially conscious and no longer using excuses to make throw away club banger tunes, but still making records....go ahead, think on it, because I did, and came up with zero....i'm betting you a photograph of your choosing that you cannot come up with one, one example, as arbitrated by aretha....for I am no hypocritical whatever it is you were spouting but a lowly unemployed photographer with nothing to gamble with but my brains and my balls...
i look forward to my post graduate education...
sincerely,
Sam
ps...i thought i'd attach my exact email from before and you can decide for yourself if something got lost in translation... or perhaps somebody was jumping to conclusions because Aretha prefaced my musings with the fact that i'm white...i have the distinct impression that you read what i wrote with a suspicious eye and were merely wating for your chance to pounce, as opposed to trying to understand my point of view, and offer an improved one of your own...or maybe, i'm just dumb white boy who doesn't get it, i will not argue..feel free to answer my question at the end to Aretha...
ps 2 for aretha: Steve Nash is the best basketball player on the planet and it's not that close (it's because he plays basketball like it's futbol)
My Mail to Aretha:
interesting takes....
I'm trying to think of an example in Hip Hop of people who evolved and matured with their content and priorities....I unfortunately could not come up with any black rappers, the only ones i could come up with were the Beastie Boys, who were willing to swig beer and demean women in their early records but eventually grew up and became socially conscious....
as a young man you don't want to hear about social change or giving back, you just want to get paid and get laid..evolving and growing up is difficult (and it sure didn't help the Beasties sell records)...it takes time and perspective...I grew up around some privileged athletes and saw how their sense of entitlement really affected their ability to behave properly and have any sense of the world outside self...people have just been telling them yes for their whole lives...i think that happens for any of these guys as soon as they get a deal, it's really exciting at first, the world is their oyster and big pimpin' only benefits their rep...
I think one of the main problems is that the two people in a position to make positive changes don't have any incentive to change: 1. Predominantly newly rich post/current-adolescent black men with no incentive (in their minds)...and 2. Longtime rich middle aged white men with no incentive to make changes to something they fear might affect their ever shrinking profit margins (these guys clearly have no stake in black women)....
It seems to me the only people capable of making these changes are the ones in the middle, black men & women on the rise in the industry at key positions like A & R and marketing, these guys are capable of making subtle changes to what's hot by simply making better choices about which artists to invest in (of course in most cases they'll have to sell this idea to an old white guy)....
I could talk about Clear Channel but that's a whole different problem
Aretha,
I have a strange question for you ...where is the black community on the words "african-american"? I've never liked this term, it doesn't roll of the tongue, it's not really accurate, and it sounds redundant/retarded...i've always preferred black but that certainly has it's own faults and implications...any opinions on the subject
AND FINALLY Marlon on a happier note, here are some photos, I will mail you one of your choice if you can win our bet, i hope you have something to wager...
> my photos at:
>
> http://www.hypegallery.com/streetphotography/
>
> go to the street photography gallery and search on :
> angel in hollywood,
plastic cup in tahoe, american
> flag in central park, dominoes in oaktown, venice
> beach skater, chesire cat
VISIONS Entertainment & Publicity <visionsep@msn.com> wrote:
BELOW IS AN EXCERPT FROM -GIRLS.... LETS HAVE A MEETING!- BY BEVERLY BOND
I had every intention of writing about hair and beauty products, and my
fabulous experiences as a celebrity DJ over the last month S but then Don
Imus decided to call the Rutgers basketball team ³nappy headed ho¹s² and
³Jigaboos²- sooooS
My first thoughts, besides the obvious of sympathizing with the young ladies
on the Rutgers team were, ³Did this RACIST man just become the catalyst for
the Black Women¹s Empowerment Movement?² It seemed as if the entire country
was suddenly weighing in on the treatment of women and more specifically the
plight of the African-American female.
This certainly wasn¹t the first time that Black women have been insulted and
degraded over FCC regulated airwaves. Last summer an MTV cartoon titled
³Where My Dogs At?² depicted Black women as ³bitches²Sliterally. In it, a
look-alike of rap star Snoop Dogg strolls into a pet shop with two
scantily-clad Black women with dark skin and afro puffs, tethered to
leashes, walking on all fours, and scratching themselves as he orders one of
them to, "Hand me my latte!" The scene ends with the women/²bitches² pissing
and defecating on the floor.
On the popular HBO series OEntourage¹, a group of Black women dressed in
summer attire attend a daytime party for resident rap artist, Saigon, in a
hotel suite. In the scene the girls get on an elevator, get off an elevator,
and simply walk into the party. At the end of the episode the credits for
these girls read OVideo Ho 1 thru Video Ho 4¹. (There was no video nor did
these women participate in Oho-ish behavior¹). In the same episode a White
woman meets the lead character, Vince, at lunch and ends up having sex with
him within a few hours in a store dressing room then later finishing up at a
hotel. However, at the end of the episode the credits for her role read
OWoman¹. On a different episode of the same show one of the lead characters
used the terminology Ovideo hoes¹ when referring to two black women. The
mother of that character then referred to those same black women as
OANIMALS¹.
On a recent episode of OThe Apprentice¹ Donald Trump was so offended by one
of the contestants¹ use of the deplorable term ³white trash² that he fired
him on the spot. He then turned around and gave the winning team a chance to
hang out with his ³good friend² Snoop ³bitches ain¹t shit but hoes-n-tricks²
Dogg; a mixed message to send especially after just firing someone for
offensive and disrespectful language towards Whites.
In 2006 when the Academy Awards gave out an Oscar for the song ³It¹s Hard
Out Here For A Pimp² (written by Three 6 Mafia) many Black women felt like
it was a message to the Black community to ³Keep pimpin¹ them hoes! ³
This ³Imus situation² is the tipping point for a problem that has been
invisible while in plain sight. There is an existing climate that devalues
and dehumanizes Black women and allows all types of stereotypes, insults,
and disrespect to go unchecked and without any repercussions. Eminem
certainly didn¹t fear any backlash when he wrote a song early in his career
disrespecting Black women... TO READ THE ENTIRE BLOG GO TO WWW.VIBEVIXEN.COM
Aretha- GLOBAL FUSION COMMENTS
Excellent ! Your word is bond! You hit it all straight on the dome. The same thing stood out to me about Kevin Lyles "little Timmy" story. I applaud Oprah for doing the show & she damn well does not need any pass to speak out on black culture or women, but I feel this was her opportunity to have rappers like Ludacris & Snoop whom had taken issue with her not having them on the show because of what she felt they represented. It would have been only fair to have those you are speaking about represented in a forum and not just those that you can stomach & pretty much know & control what you will get out of them. Russell Simmons is now the Al Sharpton of hip-hop with the press ops & representing a whole nation of people who never elected him to represent them. Russell is doing a disservice to hip-hop by defending & blaming the deplorable lyrics with poverty. As an African-Ameican growing up in Ghana & being raised by my African family, I have seen a lot of people who live in true poverty because there are levels of poverty that most of these rappers can never imagine ( case & point- if you have a chance check out MTV's documentary on Blood diamonds with Raekwon of Wu Tang, Paul Wall & others). Raekwon could not even stomach the type of poverty that he saw & had to be coaxed out of a van to face it. I have no intention of tryingto compare poverty levels but I never heard any of these people in the type of poverty that someone from the "so called hood" could not stomach use the N word toward one another & disrespect women because of their poverty or use their poverty as an international commodity & representation of we they are as a people. It's really appalling & we all need to stop making excuses- Wrong is wrong regardless of your circumstances. I had to explain to people in Africa & Italy that the N word was an offensive word & that African-American life is not representative of what they see & hear in Hip-Hop. I just wanted to enjoy my time in these places not become a teacher to get out the truth, but the crap that mainstream hip-hop is spreading as African-American culture left me no choice. African-Americans & especially females need to really realize that this is a major international issue because I don't want to go overseas & have people ask me if I can make my ass clap like the girls in hip-hop videos! If I can that's up to my man to be the judge not some random men that know nothing about me but have learned about African-American culture from the globilation of hip-hop.
Poverty is an international problem not any excuse for appalling behavior -so someone needs to explain that to Russell Simmons because he is saying the language is rude but justifying it with the fact that these young men come from poverty, so if we can't abolish poverty then we can't abolish this way of thinking or the language that comes with this way of thinking -THAT'S RIDICULOUS! poverty HAS BEEN AN INTERNATIONAL PROBLEM FOR CENTURIES SO HOW LONG DOES Russell EXPECT US TO WAIT TO CLEAN UP OUR OWN HOMES as well as his! Don't pretend you are not a part of the problem and take press ops to sell your books & products-that's just wrong. Our elders really need to realize that they are part of this huge problem because they allowed it to manifest into an interantional representatiuon of African-American culture without checking it as you would hopefully check your own children from bad disrespectful behavior, but if you have no real respect for self how can you preach to others. I agree with Russell that we shouldn't just berate these rappers because they are & were young people trying to find their way & growing up comes with a lot of change for most people. Let's give these rappers a chance to change before we destroy a huge commodity in Black Culture because hip-hop has made a lot of Black people rich & have ownership in many things from TV networks to record labels, to clothing lines etc.
Hip-hop has created more black millionaires than ever but at what cost? All these millionaires speaking about the hood don't live in the hood & don't realize their own power over the group think of young minds & this is the understanding that needs to get thru in order to change. We are really a culture in turmoil but we are not lost. We need to figure it out within ourselves & not wait for White folks to check us before we realize that wrong is wrong.
I watched CNN last night with Anderson Cooper interviewing the Founder of The Harlem Children Zone, who said he was a little afraid of the repercussions that may come to him on addressing the ills of Hip-hop with the whole "Stop Snitching" idiocy. This is an elder in our community that is trying to lift up young black people , why should he be afraid to speak out against his own people that have been making his life chosen work that much harder. We should not let this thug mentally run our community or intimidate us from doing what's right. This is disgraceful! This is an eloquent gentlemen who has fought for the rights that these young men utilize in their disrespect. He spoke on how Black Music has always been an international commodity for upliftment of Black people worldwide with our contribution of Jazz, R& B & EVEN HIP-HOP IN THE BEGINNING, but now we have taken a 360 deplorable turn to showcase the worst of us. Cameron is just a straight idiot & has recieved more press for his idiocy on 60 minutes than he recived for his whole last album. Where do they find these morons to represent Black People? Black American lifestyle is so much more than hip-hop & we have had a long running history of greatness, struggle & perserverence so let's not put that in the underground while we expose the worst parts of our community.
Let's use this moment in time to truly make change and stop being so defensive toward one another because if there is no problem then there isn't anything to be defensive about. Where's MR. CEO Jay Z & Jimmy Iovine on this topic since they are responsible for the biggest names in hip-hop right now. Where are the parents, where are the young women standing up saying they will no longer subject themselves to be ass clappers & sexual objects in videos, where are the corporations standing up & saying we will no longer sign & promote such offensive behavior? This change will not happen over night & it will take us all as individuals to check ourselves since the hypocrisy in all of this is rapid & each one of us has a part in it. Each one teach One!!
You go Bev!! Black Girls Rock movement is a great catalyst for the movement toward change!
ire cat...
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