...so, will people get to decide what race they are someday, too?

[abcdefz]

Newsweek had this article about transgender people, which.... eh.

But it made me think about how PC it is that, if some guy "identifies" as a female, people are expected to call him "she," etc. How someone refusing to do so could probably get in trouble at work. How newspapers have picked up this line, and people who simply cross-dress are still called by their gender preference.

So, I'm wondering. If someone "indentifies" as a different race, are we expected to go along with that, too? I mean, the argument is the same, isn't it? "I know I was born Caucasian, but I've always identified as Black."

I mean, why not, right?

It just seems stupid to me. You get to choose this stuff about as much as you get to "believe" in gravity.

[cookiepuss]

I think you raise some good point A-Z, however I view the transgender thing maybe a little different. we basically all start out as girls and then some of you get that Y chromosome and you grow an penis instead of a clit. it's one chromosome.


Now I don't know about the genomes and chromosomes that make up a persons race but I think it might be a little more complicated...certainly seems like it's be more than one gene making up a race.

[abcdefz]

I think you raise some good point A-Z, however I view the transgender thing maybe a lttile different. we basicalaly all start out as girls and then some of you get that Y chromosome and you grow an penis instead of a clit. it's one chromosome.





Yeah, but your chromosome scheme doesn't change if you're transgendered, right?

I'm just curious where we draw the line. Like, if a blond gets her hair dyed, is she really a redhead now? See, I'd still say no. She has red hair, but she's not a redhead.

But that's on the sillier side of things. But I bet their driver's license wouldn't be "hair: red."

[cookiepuss]

I guess it doesn't but I feel like it's easier for me to see how transgenders can identify more with the oposite gender mentally and emotionally but ended up a differnt gender because if a chromosome showing up/being absent. I can see how they can feel it was a mistake for them to be born of a certain gender. I think nature can make a mistake.

but of course there are white people who think they outta been born black. and I really can't explain that phenomenon.

[abcdefz]

Inside, I'm Māori. :(

[hpdrifter]

If I could choose, I'd choose Mexican. I'd love to have beautiful carmely brown skin and long dark hair. I'd want to preserve my green eyes somehow, though.

[MC Moot]

If Tiger Woods can declare himself Americasian we can all be whatever we like!.....but I'm 1/2 Basque 1/2 half Irish, so I'm perfect,aside my tempermant....:D

[abcdefz]

I'm an Ayzee. We're a dying race, but hey.

Shit. I need to make a flag.

[MC Moot]

I'm an Ayzee. We're a dying race, but hey.

Shit. I need to make a flag.

Yes,and then you must hang it upside down to indicate distress....you should solicit yourself out as a fine philly looking for able and willing mares with shapely hips to persue breeding stock pursuits....don't do a dodo.....(y)

[cookiepuss]

you should solicit yourself out as a fine philly looking for able and willing mares with shapely hips to persue breeding stock pursuits....don't do a dodo.....(y)


ok...I'm a nerd but...just one thing.

if reference to horses I alwasy thought it was "filly" not "Philly" as in "Philly cheesesteak sandwich."

the one part I'm sure of is a filly or philly is a young FEMALE horse.


he need to solicit him self as a Stallion!

[abcdefz]

I thought "filly" was a female horse. :confused:

[abcdefz]

Ah. Yeah, good.


Yeah, I don't identify as a filly. :D

[cookiepuss]

hhe yah see my post above yours...I think the same thing.

[abcdefz]

hhe yah see my post above yours...I think the same thing.

That was my confirmation, but then I looked it up anyway just to be sure. :D

[cookiepuss]

maybe moot thought you were a transgender horse?:D heehee

[abcdefz]

Gelded, then given hormone therapy. Yup.

[Schmeltz]

But it made me think about how PC it is that, if some guy "identifies" as a female, people are expected to call him "she," etc. How someone refusing to do so could probably get in trouble at work.

This is akin to complaining about a married woman changing her name, and how you're a victim for being forced to call her Sally Smith instead of Sally Jones.


I'm just curious where we draw the line.


The line will change and shift depending on how the status of transgendered people is negotiated vis-a-vis the structure of traditional social gender roles. Or, put another way, we draw the line wherever we want. If people are determined to think that transgendered people should ignore their own biology and stay within the bounds of traditional gender roles, for no other reason than just because, then that's how it'll be. Fortunately that perspective is increasingly outlandish and more people these days are willing to let others do their own thing.

[saz]

who cares. i don't think it has anything to do with being "pc", and if some dude identifies as a woman, i don't think people should be expected to refer to him as "she", unless that said individual requests it. i don't think it matters at all, just as long as people are happy. and how could someone refusing to address the dude as a "she" get in trouble at work? was that in the newsweek article, or are you just making an assumption? and newspapers have picked up on this? which ones? i've never heard of anyone, anything, or any publication refering to a male/female cross-dresser as a member of the opposite sex.

you don't have to go along with anything you don't want to, or have to. i just think you're somewhat bitter, and that this is kinda bothering you, so you felt the need to post a rant. i see where you're coming from, i get your point, and i'm with you on this one. but in the end, who cares?

[MC Moot]

maybe moot thought you were a transgender horse?:D heehee

hehehehehe...ohhhh shit.......I thought that what's this thread was alll about.....:o

[MC Moot]

furthermore,aside my gaff,he could identify himself as the "Black Stallion" although he appears to be caucasian,chix will dig it.....:)

[abcdefz]

who cares. i don't think it has anything to do with being "pc", and if some dude identifies as a woman, i don't think people should be expected to refer to him as "she", unless that said individual requests it. i don't think it matters at all, just as long as people are happy. and how could someone refusing to address the dude as a "she" get in trouble at work? was that in the newsweek article, or are you just making an assumption? and newspapers have picked up on this? which ones? i've never heard of anyone, anything, or any publication refering to a male/female cross-dresser as a member of the opposite sex.

you don't have to go along with anything you don't want to, or have to. i just think you're somewhat bitter, and that this is kinda bothering you, so you felt the need to post a rant. i see where you're coming from, i get your point, and i'm with you on this one. but in the end, who cares?



Our local paper, the San Jose Mercury News, goes with the identified gender. I've seen it in TV reports, also. That was what was interesting to me -- in the Newsweek article, it used language like "considers herself male" (I'm paraphrasing), and that shocked me because I'm so used to seeing it the other way.

I'm not bitter so much as disgusted. Relativism bugs the shit out of me, because it's basically society being encouraged to embrace lies. Ignorance is truth, freedom is slavery, and all that.

The workplace scenario is just my writer's imagination coming up with a story. I can imagine someone refusing to call a man "she," and it going to Human Resources as "harassment." I can totally see that happening.

I don't think that sex changes should be illegal or whatever, but I don't think anyone should expect others to believe that someone's sex actually changed because of it.

[saz]

dude, i cannot see that happening, your writer's imagination of the workplace scenario. that is ridiculous, and if someone in a workplace refused to address a man as a "she", and then he attempted to go to management/hr about it, they'd laugh at him.

again, i see where you're coming from, especially with sex change operations (ew). but just let people be happy, and don't let their happiness bother you. there's more important things to be bothered about, ie george bush, cheney, and the board's strange new colour scheme.

[MC Moot]

dude, i cannot see that happening, your writer's imagination of the workplace scenario. that is ridiculous, and if someone in a workplace refused to address a man as a "she", and then he attempted to go to management/hr about it, they'd laugh at him..

Ever work in a "Union" environment?....it's a totally plausible scenario.....

[abcdefz]

dude, i cannot see that happening, your writer's imagination of the workplace scenario. that is ridiculous, and if someone in a workplace refused to address a man as a "she", and then he attempted to go to management/hr about it, they'd laugh at him.


...then they'd get a complaint. I'm serious. This stuff's getting out of control.



again, i see where you're coming from, especially with sex change operations (ew). but just let people be happy, and don't let their happiness bother you. there's more important things to be bothered about, ie george bush, cheney, and the board's strange new colour scheme.



I don't hassle anybody, believe me. Every now and then I see a transvestite or cross-dresser, and I treat 'em just like everybody else -- stick my nose in the paper and don't engage. :D

[Schmeltz]

I'm not bitter so much as disgusted. Relativism bugs the shit out of me, because it's basically society being encouraged to embrace lies.

I'm not sure I follow. In what way does forcing transgendered people to remain within your own notion of proper gender roles encourage truth? How does a transgendered person's level of comfort with their body and personality perpetuate lies?

[saz]

Ever work in a "Union" environment?....it's a totally plausible scenario.....

yeah, i used to belong to the steelworkers. yeah right, totally plausible. as plausible as your union rep busting out a lazyboy chair for you on the job, bbq steaks and a cooler full of german beer.

...then they'd get a complaint. I'm serious. This stuff's getting out of control.

management/hr would get a complaint? from who? it's getting out of control? i thought this was due to your writer's imagination.

[abcdefz]

I'm not sure I follow. In what way does forcing transgendered people to remain within your own notion of proper gender roles encourage truth? How does a transgendered person's level of comfort with their body and personality perpetuate lies?


Those are two different questions. But, basically, just because someone has cosmetic changes doesn't change who they are on a genetic level.

And, yes, I know that people lie to themselves to be comfortable. Doesn't mean others should be expected to participate.

[abcdefz]

yeah, i used to belong to the steelworkers. yeah right, totally plausible. as plausible as your union rep busting out a lazyboy chair for you on the job, bbq steaks and a cooler full of german beer.





Obviously, you've never been on a film set.

-- or done a trade show at the Moscone Center. :(




management/hr would get a complaint? from who? it's getting out of control? i thought this was due to your writer's imagination.


I can't believe you can't believe. America is lawsuit happy, man. It's the new lottery.

[MC Moot]

yeah, i used to belong to the steelworkers. yeah right, totally plausible. as plausible as your union rep busting out a lazyboy chair for you on the job, bbq steaks and a cooler full of german beer....

As a shop steward I've filed/represented greivances over peoples choice of aftershave and the distance someone has to walk from their parking spot,so fuck yeah,it's totally plausabile.....any issue vaguely gender,race or religious based can easily be entertained points of contention.....about the recliner and the Heneiken,that's where I see my dues pay off.......:D

[abcdefz]

ahhhh.... I gotta take off. I'll catch up with you guys tomorrow.

[cookiepuss]

.

I don't think that sex changes should be illegal or whatever, but I don't think anyone should expect others to believe that someone's sex actually changed because of it.


oh but it actually does change. even the way in which they orgasm changes with a sex change operation. I use to work in a business where many of our clients were tansgender. So I know many of them and I've watched thier transfermation through a series of proceedures. (and I've been in the situation where I have to remember not to call the client by thier old name or "he" anymore).


the clients I delt with were all male to female transgenders so I don't know as much about how women are changed to men...but they can give a man a perfect little pussy with a fully fuctional clit. this client told me about how shocked he was the first time he "came" as a woman. he couldn't beleive how long the orgasm lasted...becasue orgasming as a man had been so different.

so it's not about them just changeing anatomy, with the technology today they can keep the nerves in tact and many of these people can experince thier new naughty bits in just the same way that those of us who were born with them do.

they aren't a man in a dress with a chopped off penis. for all extensive purposes they have become fully woman..with a working feeling vagina. they don't menstrate but that's about all they miss out on.

[Schmeltz]

It might be true that cosmetic changes do not alter one's real genetic composition. But I don't get why you see it as so repellent or distasteful to acknowledge the condition of other people. I suppose if you consider the difficulties faced by transgendered people to be a simple charade in which you're being asked to play a role for the sake of maintaining the illusion, that might be kind of irrealistic. But that's a pretty ignorant and self-centered way to look at things.

Accepting that transgendered people have difficulty functioning as social beings under traditional social norms and gender roles isn't hard to do, it only takes a little empathy. Surely you would agree that individual members of society should have the freedom to participate in it as fully social beings, and I don't see the harm in admitting that in order for that to happen to the most complete possible degree we may have to renegotiate some of our ideas about gender and human physiology.

[MC Moot]

It might be true that cosmetic changes do not alter one's real genetic composition. But I don't get why you see it as so repellent or distasteful to acknowledge the condition of other people. I suppose if you consider the difficulties faced by transgendered people to be a simple charade in which you're being asked to play a role for the sake of maintaining the illusion, that might be kind of irrealistic. But that's a pretty ignorant and self-centered way to look at things.

Accepting that transgendered people have difficulty functioning as social beings under traditional social norms and gender roles isn't hard to do, it only takes a little empathy. Surely you would agree that individual members of society should have the freedom to participate in it as fully social beings, and I don't see the harm in admitting that in order for that to happen to the most complete possible degree we may have to renegotiate some of our ideas about gender and human physiology.

Word,well said,bravo and with grace too......(y)

[cookiepuss]

why did A-z have to go? :( I really wanted to discuss transgender orgasms with him.

[Bob]

It might be true that cosmetic changes do not alter one's real genetic composition. But I don't get why you see it as so repellent or distasteful to acknowledge the condition of other people. I suppose if you consider the difficulties faced by transgendered people to be a simple charade in which you're being asked to play a role for the sake of maintaining the illusion, that might be kind of irrealistic. But that's a pretty ignorant and self-centered way to look at things.

Accepting that transgendered people have difficulty functioning as social beings under traditional social norms and gender roles isn't hard to do, it only takes a little empathy. Surely you would agree that individual members of society should have the freedom to participate in it as fully social beings, and I don't see the harm in admitting that in order for that to happen to the most complete possible degree we may have to renegotiate some of our ideas about gender and human physiology.

i agree. i think the whole transgendered thing is just really impossibly hard for non-transgendered people to understand, it's like the new fringe of sexuality, it's the new gay, we just aren't used to it yet. most people have no problem with their gender assignments, so they can't understand how other people can. myself for example, i was born with a penis, i'm cool with that, i like wearing collared shirts and suits and pants with pockets on the back and all that, none of it really bothers me, i quite enjoy it (i bet sex with women is fun too, but i'll get back to you on that)

but there's a fraction of the population out there that are so bothered by it that it torments them, that they're willing to change their names, that they're willing to wear the opposite gender's clothes in public, that they're willing to undergo surgery to have their genitals, the most very personal part of a person's anatomy rearranged, that they're willing to undergo the stigma associated with being openly transgendered, i mean, there's something very REAL going on here, i just think it's a very kneejerk reaction to be disgusted by it.

[Bob]

although, as open-minded as i just sounded, i should admit; there was a sort of transgender-awareness week at my school, and the put up flyers and stuff on the walls, and one of the flyers had a picture of a transgendered woman...or a man or...well, i'm still not clear on the vocabulary, anyway she looked like a woman, and somebody had drawn a mustache on her

i don't know, i try not to laugh at bigotry, but i found it pretty clever at the time

[Dorothy Wood]

a-z, unless you're talking about someone you know personally suddenly changing from a man into a woman or a woman into a man, I don't see why it should be such a big deal to refer to them as the gender of their choice.

like, if your wife all of a sudden said she was living a lie and felt like a man her whole life, and wanted to take a step to actually become one...I could see how you might feel betrayed and not want to call her "him". because you trusted and knew that person and they hid a really important problem from you. but otherwise, get over it. it doesn't affect you other than maybe stumbling over your words a bit as to what pronoun to use. big fuckin deal.

I hardly think there's an epidemic going on here. I agree with what schmeltz has been saying.

[befsquire]

yeah, i really don't get why this is such a big deal to you. does it really hurt you or take something away from you to call a person by the gender he or she identifies with?

i think your argument is flawed when you suggest that if we allow a person born as one sex to be identified as another, then we open ourselves to someone saying they're some other race than his or her skin would indicate. 1) one chromosome is the difference between being a male or female. 2) that difference in an X or Y chromosome is sometimes not clearly established, and people are born as hermaphrodites with parents choosing the gender of the child. 3) race can include culture and/or national pride, as well as a sort of heritage, while gender does not.

other than as some sort of comedy skit by eddie murphy, when was the last time you saw someone painting his or her skin another color because he or she felt like a white man trapped in an asian man's body, or whatever combo you want to come up with?

i'm just shocked to see you being so put out by all of this. for real -- what does it hurt you to be courteous to another human being that is deserving of respect, just like you are?