"Rich, Black, Flunking"

[Waus]

Interesting article about academia and the difference between races. What causes differing scores, what perpetuates those differences, etc.

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/2003-05-21/news/rich-black-flunking/

discuss?

[abcdefz]

They're not flunking. They're "keeping it real."

[Waus]

They're not flunking. They're "keeping it real."

That's exactly it.

I hate it when the world gets blamed for 'being racist' when things like this get pointed out.

[abcdefz]

Do you read the East Bay Express often? That's one truly shitty rag.

I know they recently changed owners, so maybe it's better now, but, man.

Not that long ago, you could pretty much count on just about EVERY ISSUE having a letter to the editor from a well-informed source basically saying "You ignored this in your story, misrepresented that, these facts aren't true," etc. etc., and the Express would express their regrets.

So, basically: run the article now with a big splash; print a tiny retraction next week.

Scum, man. Scum scum scum.

[abcdefz]

How did I guess.


"Ogbu concluded that the average black student in Shaker Heights put little effort into schoolwork and was part of a peer culture that looked down on academic success as 'acting white.' Although he noted that other factors also play a role, and doesn't deny that there may be antiblack sentiment in the district, he concluded that discrimination alone could not explain the gap."


...so it is a racist story, after all.

See how he still tries to spin it around so it's racism against blacks?


Although he noted that other factors also play a role, and doesn't deny that there may be antiblack sentiment in the district, he concluded that discrimination alone could not explain the gap.


...perhaps these black kids' discrimination (and stupidity) can explain it. But noooooo.... we'd hate to blame people for their own willfully poor performance. :rolleyes:

[Waus]

we'd hate to blame people for their own willfully poor performance. :rolleyes:

From my understanding of the article - it's a cultural issue, not a racial one. He doesn't dismiss discrimination as a part of it, but it's not at the core of it.

I guess that's how I see a lot of issues that people label "RACIST!" I see Lil Jon being famous and setup as a hero, and what does he do? Swing around a big chalice filled with 'krunk juice,' flash gold teeth and shout one of the two words he knows (yeah, what) ...I'm not saying those are bad things per se - but when that's who kids look up to you're actively encouraging a culture of ignorance.

[Whatitis]

Life ain't nothing but bitches and money.

[abcdefz]

From my understanding of the article - it's a cultural issue, not a racial one. He doesn't dismiss discrimination as a part of it, but it's not at the core of it.




When you have people modifying their behavior because they don't want to seem like [name a race] people, that's racist on so many levels it hurts.

[Schmeltz]

Not necessarily. It's probably more of a knee-jerk, reactionary response to a perceived or purported threat to what one considers one's culture. Racism, to my mind, involves the active denigration of ethnic groups on purely ethnic grounds, not an attempt (however ignorant and misguided) to discourage the assimilation of one's culture into another. This is probably much more about creating and maintaining a social and cultural identity than about actively degrading white people.

Not that that makes such an attitude productive or acceptable. It's tragic to consider that these students are apparently willing to forego all the opportunities afforded by a good education on the sole basis of a totally imaginary and artificial set of values, and especially sad that their parents are involved so minimally in the education of their children. These are ignorant attitudes that need to be reversed or they will have very negative consequences for this community. It's a further shame that this issue has to be approached so gingerly, but I think abcdefz just showed us how explosively sensitive some people can be about these things.

[kaiser soze]

I'm sure just as many if not more white kids are flunking out of school

culture shmulture, the parents, advisors, and schools should be paying attention to how these kids are performing and provide guidance

I work with college studetns (mostly freshmen), and I'm seeing a ton of neglect from those who should be paying more attention. It seems more parents are less inclined to kid their kid's ass when they waste a semester or two or three of their parents money/financial aid on partying.

It is baffling....if it was my kid you're damn straight I'd give them an ultimatum to do well in school that they could not forget.

Of course I will try my best to instill the value of education early

[abcdefz]

but I think abcdefz just showed us how explosively sensitive some people can be about these things.



:rolleyes:

[abcdefz]

Not necessarily. It's probably more of a knee-jerk, reactionary response to a perceived or purported threat to what one considers one's culture. Racism, to my mind, involves the active denigration of ethnic groups on purely ethnic grounds, not an attempt (however ignorant and misguided) to discourage the assimilation of one's culture into another. This is probably much more about creating and maintaining a social and cultural identity than about actively degrading white people.




Give me a fucking break. No one's afraid of being identified with a group they covet. This is about not wanting to be identified with a group they see as inferior, plain as day.

[Schmeltz]

No one's afraid of being identified with a group they covet.


Where on earth did you come up with that particular impression? So black people are either all insanely jealous of white people or else they think they're just all racially inferior? Thanks for the tip, I'll keep that in mind.

Seriously man, that's a pretty strange way to look at things.

[abcdefz]

Where on earth did you come up with that particular impression? So black people are either all insanely jealous of white people or else they think they're just all racially inferior? Thanks for the tip, I'll keep that in mind.

Seriously man, that's a pretty strange way to look at things.


Rotate 180 degrees and you might get the gist of what I'm saying.

Or maybe not.

It's kind of like the opposite of saying "I'm just as good as you." Nobody who really believes they're just as good as (whoever) has to protest that -- they already know it.

Conversely, no one is afraid of being identified with a group they admire.

Not wanting to identify with a group = not admire.

Blacks in this study not admire whites.

get it?

Therfore, while they might not correct you if you called them "pimps" or "gangstas" -- groups or status they might arguably covet -- they'll DAMN sure correct you if you suggest they're behavior is "white."

[Waus]

It's tragic to consider that these students are apparently willing to forego all the opportunities afforded by a good education on the sole basis of a totally imaginary and artificial set of values, and especially sad that their parents are involved so minimally in the education of their children. These are ignorant attitudes that need to be reversed or they will have very negative consequences for this community. It's a further shame that this issue has to be approached so gingerly...

I totally agree with that paragraph there. Anything involving race is such a touchy subject that the bigotry label gets thrown around anytime someone suspects that there's a cultural problem that's identified with an ethnicity.

For example, what I said earlier about Lil Jon being setup as an archetype for 'blackness.' I think he's a bad example, however entertaining/talented as a producer he is. He's a proponent of a system of a "totally imaginary and artificial set of values" that people would claim you were racist for criticizing as a role model.

[Schmeltz]

Not wanting to identify with a group = not admire.

Blacks in this study not admire whites.


This is where your argument (and apparently your grammar) falls apart. It's perfectly possible to respect other people without wanting to identify with them - particularly if you consider "identifying with them" to come at the cost of what you consider vital aspects of your own identity. Minority populations often cling tenaciously to attitudes, values, and behaviours that they consider to aid them in establishing a more "authentic" cultural identity in the face of an overwhelmingly dominant majority culture, and will seek to differentiate themselves from it - it's only natural and it's a common feature of human societies throughout history, especially if you look at imperialist societies like Korea under Japanese government.

It's a shame to see that reaction evidently being pursued to the extent that getting an education is equated with sacrificing a part of your identity, but it's equally disappointing to see someone on the other side put that up to racism instead of making an effort to understand the issue a little better. Honestly it seems like all you have going for you here is your assumption that black people must all want to be exactly like white people and if they don't, well then there must be something racist about them. I call bullshit on that.


Anything involving race is such a touchy subject


I can see why, with everyone so eager to paint themselves a victim. I think you make a good point with your example about Lil John, who isn't a good role model for anyone, but I also think part of the problem is in setting up archetypes of "blackness" or "whiteness" at all. It's sad that people still see a need to do that, and that certain groups still feel culturally threatened through their simple participation in society while others are largely unable to comprehend why that might be. It's sad that we haven't yet been able to construct a more empathetic society where people feel free to pursue any avenue productive avenue they wish without feeling isolated and alienated. All the more reason to try harder, I guess.

[insertnamehere]

I like how it mentions his former colleague on page 3 that helped him come up with the concept of black students not wanting to "act white" being a reason for poor academic performance or for not speaking, as the article refers to it, "standard english"

you would think the lady that helped him come up with this idea would be behind him on his current research, but instead she blames the school district saying that it's not fair to make black students "act white" in order for them to succeed.

i'd like to know what this lady thinks should be done about her perceived problem with the school system. maybe black students shoudln't have points taken off for grammar in written assignments while everyone else does. they also shoudln't be required to turn in homework. why, making them do homework is an outright attack on their heritage. or they could even be given their own separate school with overall lower standards, so that they don't have to act as white to make good grades.

i wish i could give this ogbu guy a hug. he's taking way too much crap for what i think is a very sound theory. these people who blame schools and racism for their kids not doing well are only making racial problems worse. by calling acting intelligent "acting white," what do they suggest it is to act black?

this reminds me of something morgan freeman said to the effect of the only way to end racism is to stop talking about it. he also hates black history month. on an unrelated note, i want morgan freeman for president.