choosing to not have children...

[kll]

I'm at the point in my life where I don't think I will ever have biological children. I am 90% ok with this. I get along with most children, even times find myself envious of mothers, but mostly, I am content with my life as it is. I don't find the nagging feeling to have them, and when in large crowds, don't really like most of them. I think this is mostly the parents fault for creating creatures instead of children, but again, I'm not feeling the gnaw.

I enjoy my dogs. I enjoy having money. I enjoy having independence. This is obviously the first generation where it's considered "ok" to not have kids, but I fear regretting this in later life. What are your thoughts in this?



In the spirit of BG101's thread on child birth, let's hear it.

[TurdBerglar]

no need for children whatsoever

[Bob]

you mean what are my thoughts on wanting children, or what are my thoughts on you or anyone else not wanting children?

for the first question, i'm a soon-to-be 23 year old virgin law student so kids are low on my list of priorities

for the second question, i dunno. if you don't want them, you don't want them. and if you don't want them, don't have them. i'm not a woman, i dunno if they're biologically supposed to want them at some point, but yeah i mean i'm mostly with turd here, the fewer children in my way, the better. thanks for not wanting them

[kll]

you mean what are my thoughts on wanting children, or what are my thoughts on you or anyone else not wanting children?

for the first question, i'm a soon-to-be 23 year old virgin law student so kids are low on my list of priorities

for the second question, i dunno. if you don't want them, you don't want them. and if you don't want them, don't have them. i'm not a woman, i dunno if they're biologically supposed to want them at some point, but yeah i mean i'm mostly with turd here, the fewer children in my way, the better. thanks for not wanting them

i was asking what are your thoughts on your OWN children. sorry, i was not specific.

you're welcome on not bringing more crumbs into the world.

[jabumbo]

you can have my children, kll

[kll]

you can have my children, kll

you have no idea what you got yourself into...

[Farrah]

i'm a 23 year old virgin


why?

[jabumbo]

you have no idea what you got yourself into...


it can't be any worse than what i'm already in!



so are you saying that you would consider adopting a child?

[kll]

it can't be any worse than what i'm already in!



so are you saying that you would consider adopting a child?

haha. that's true!

at least you'd have some sort of a resolution...



i'd consider adoption, i think...

[Randetica]

why?

yeah bob tell her! the spotlight is right on you!



well i dont understand people who hate women that dont want to get children
my sister got some shit because of that reason

[ms.peachy]

I am happy to support whatever reproductive choices a woman makes for herself, with the exception of women who churn out kids with no regard to whether or not they are fit tot be a parent. (But that is a whole other subject, really.)

I have two close female friends who have made a clear decision not to have children. One, let's call her M, is a very "high flyer" shall we say - loves her p.r. career, which takes her all over the world, loves her Porsche, her spa weekends, her many breakable objets d'art. I know the way I've described her there makes her seem shallow, but she's not really , she's lovely and thoughtful and politically aware - she just really likes the circle she moves in, and isn't crazy about the idea of having a small loud sticky person with 24 hour demands. Her husband is pretty much on the same page. So they are suited to eachother, and a lovely couple, and there is no reason in the world why they should feel obliged to reproduce when it is not what either of them wants.

My other close friend, C, she lives a much quieter life, and is a really smart and caring person, and if she did want to be a mother I have no doubt she'd be a great one. But she decided a long time ago - I remember us talking about it when we were in our early 20's - that she did not want to have children. First of all, her work is pretty emotionally demanding, as she works with mentally disabled teenagers and adults, people who live in supervised 'group homes'. Secondly, she fells that she is not good genetic material, which might seem a strange way to look at things, but I understand where she is coming from - her family's a pretty mixed bag (I've known them pretty much all my life). Her husband has a daughter from his first marriage, and being a stepmom is enough, she says.

I love being a mum and I can honestly say that nothing in life has ever made me happier than this little person sitting next to me who is right now smearing buttery toast crumb fingerprints all over my laptop. But, it is hard fucking work and having a baby does pretty much subsume your identity for the first six months or so, and life is never the same again. So if it's not what a woman really wants, then she shouldn't do it.

[fucktopgirl]

I'm at the point in my life where I don't think I will ever have biological children. I am 90% ok with this. I get along with most children, even times find myself envious of mothers, but mostly, I am content with my life as it is. I don't find the nagging feeling to have them, and when in large crowds, don't really like most of them. I think this is mostly the parents fault for creating creatures instead of children, but again, I'm not feeling the gnaw.

I enjoy my dogs. I enjoy having money. I enjoy having independence. This is obviously the first generation where it's considered "ok" to not have kids, but I fear regretting this in later life. What are your thoughts in this?



In the spirit of BG101's thread on child birth, let's hear it.


I think it is ok that you feel like the way you are feeling..Anyway, our world is shitty enought.....

But being a mother is amazing too and it beat money and everything else in a flash.

Up to you.... you gotta to listen to your guts but if you ever come pregnant with your lover, just think twice...

[trailerprincess]

I'd be a dreadful mother so I don't think I'll have kids. And if I did happen to have one, I'd like to be in some kind of relationship which is about as likely as something quite unlikely.

However, if by some miracle a blind, crazy, death row prisoner and I do get together and I change my mind, sods law it'll be when I am 60 and can't have them

[Randetica]

i want a cage full of children!

[NicRN77]

I've pretty much made the decision to not have children. I'm 30 and I just feel I don't have that motherly instinct. People say it's because I haven't met my future husband...but I don't feel that way. I like having money, I like traveling places, I like to be able to do what I want to do when I want to do it. I don't want my life to turn into my child's life. It just always seems to happen that way. I guess later on down the road I will regret my decision...who will take care of me when I'm old???

[MC Moot]

Years ago I realized I'm way too selfish for procreation,giving up travel,comprimising my abilty to move at random,the possibility of SIDS or child illness/death.....nope couldn't handle that drama......me,me,me,me and then some time for me.......(n)

[abcdefz]

When I was a kid, I wanted to have kids as a way to kind of show my parents how to do it right. As I got older and found out more about my own limitations, I realized it would be best to resist any contribution of my own to the gene pool. Same kind of thing for marriage. Too much baggage of my own, let alone adding someone else's, and there are plenty of fucked up marriages in this world without adding one more.

[Randetica]

I've pretty much made the decision to not have children. I'm 30 and I just feel I don't have that motherly instinct. People say it's because I haven't met my future husband...but I don't feel that way. I like having money, I like traveling places, I like to be able to do what I want to do when I want to do it. I don't want my life to turn into my child's life. It just always seems to happen that way. I guess later on down the road I will regret my decision...who will take care of me when I'm old???

my motherly feelings already woke up when i was like 13 or 14 cause back then it was the first (and last time) i held a baby in my arms

never had such feelings ever before and they are still lasting

guess it's time for a real baby! soon my bunny gets probably tired of her diapers

[cookiepuss]

have you seen the movie Idiocracy? it's a Mike Judge (Office Space) satire. the movie isn't super fantastic but humorous and enjoyable.

he premis of the movie is basically that smart people decide not to have children and all the dumbasses breed like bunnies so in the future the world is run by morons. it's funny...because I was just saying something to that effect to my friends the other day...that the future will suck for this very reason.

see I don't want children either, and that's unfortunate because I'd actually probably be a decent parent. I would not let my children act like most of the children I see climbing the walls in the supermarket these days.

[abcdefz]

I think that it may well be that the more educated you are, the more likely your personal selfishness shows up as a choice to not have kids. Not saying that's a good thing -- just a possibility.

Less educated people are selfish in other ways, but making babies is probably more likely in line with their sort of selfishness.

[MC Moot]

Some people procreate to appease vanity.....some people procreate to insure a caregiver in their old age which is often associated or driven by cultural/socio-economic disposition.....some people procreate to try and obtain a love they never themselves received......unfortunately too many people procreate due to ignorance......a planned parenthood is the only responsible option,should you choose the most overwhelming,time consuming,fiscally and emotionally intensive pursuit a responsible person can embark upon......me,I have my agenda full looking out for numero uno and those I hold dear....in that order......;)

[cosmo105]

i wasn't always sure about it, but over the years i've become reasonably certain i want to have kids. i really look forward to being a mom, but at the same time it's scary. but i think that's healthy, because that means i take it seriously. a good friend of mine had a kid wayyyy too young and it's been a real learning experience watching her struggle to provide for and be a good mother to a little girl while she's still growing up herself. i know i want to wait a long time, until i'm really ready for it, but that's me. i can totally understand not feeling the need to have kids - it's not for everyone. so don't worry kll, you can come over and coo over our little steglettes anytime.

[kaiser soze]

I need kids to wash the dishes and car

[abcdefz]

our little steglettes




I started nervously sweating and I'm not even involved. :D

[MC Moot]

I think that it may well be that the more educated you are, the more likely your personal selfishness shows up as a choice to not have kids....

then as for me it becomes less personal and more professional....:D

[MC Moot]

I need kids to wash the dishes and car

they make capable lawn cutters and snow shovelers as well.....(y)

[Jitters]

I know I'm still young but I'm pretty much against having any kids in the future.

Whenever I settle down I would just like to be able to have as much free time with my wife as possible and children would definitely create problems with that.

[abcdefz]

then as for me it becomes less personal and more professional....:D



I don't know, but --


Some people procreate to appease vanity.....some people procreate to insure a caregiver in their old age which is often associated or driven by cultural/socio-economic disposition.....some people procreate to try and obtain a love they never themselves received......unfortunately too many people procreate due to ignorance......a planned parenthood is the only responsible option,should you choose the most overwhelming,time consuming,fiscally and emotionally intensive pursuit a responsible person can embark upon......me,I have my agenda full looking out for numero uno and those I hold dear....in that order......;)



-- this is basically what I was talking about. Selfishness manifests itself in many ways.

I don't know too many people who have ever had a child because they wanted a guest in their home they would unselfishly nurture to adulthood. Usually there's a selfish agenda kicking in spoiling things.

[MC Moot]

Whenever I even vaguely consider parenthood John Lennon whispers in my ear "I read the news today,oh boy...."....train of thought comes to full stop,thanks John.....(y)

[cookiepuss]

Wow, that's painting with a broad brush AZ. It sounds like you are saying the more educated the person is, the greater the chance that they will not want to have kids. Why would that be?

because a smarter person is logical and they are more likely to say...ok a child needs AB & C to survive and I can currently only provide C for said child, therefore it's not right for me to bring a child into the world because it can not be sustained.

and a moron says " I'm horny lets fuck" without any regard to the concequences that action may have.

seems pretty simple to me

[abcdefz]

Wow, that's painting with a broad brush AZ. It sounds like you are saying the more educated the person is, the greater the chance that they will not want to have kids. Why would that be?



No -- I'm saying (maybe not particularly well) that if an educated person is more likely to not have kids for self reasons (i.e. putting him/herself at number one; I don't want to give up X Y Z to be a parent, etc.), whereas I think a less educated person is more likely to want to have kids for selfish reasons (see: Moot's post I basically agree with).

Trust me -- I'm not moony-eyed over educated people; they're some of the dumbest asses on the planet.

[Nivvie]

When I've worked in care of the elderly, there's been quite a few childless people who regret it, and quite a few who don't.

The chances are you can end up in a home whether you have kids or not, but Chrsitmas can be lonely when there's no one to visit. But then, who says kids are going to visit anyway? If social contact and relationships are important to a person, being part of a family, that has to be cultivated in every aspect of a life, not just at home.
I knew a childless old lady who was visited once a week by her old next door neighbour and the neighbour's children, whereas the actual owners of the home didn't have their mother over to the big house for Christmas dinner, but just left her dribbling with the rest of the residents.

I like being a mother, I found (my own) fab and easy when very young.
It's when they get older, and you see the personality form, when they start coming out with odd politial ideas and think money grows on trees, etc. That's when you really realise there's work to be done so your kid doesn't end up a moron.

A very scared friend of mine has a child with a horrific cruel streak, she's a total bitch of a ten year old that would kill a kitten without flinching. I don't know how I'd cope with that.

And then there's sex, and drugs, and all that worry.

I totally understand why people don't want kids.
And although in some ways there aren't the same problems of poverty and disease as there were a hundred years ago, we have a whole new load of other threats and fears.

[abcdefz]

Well, that's cool. I'm not saying I think ALL people who have kids are selfish and their reasons just get divvied up along intellectual lines; it sounds like that's how you're reading it, though, so maybe that is how I'm coming across.


Anyway, see, I like this a lot:

"Marriage partners are to serve each other. Elevate, help, teach, strengthen each other, but above all, serve. Raise their children honorably, lovingly, and with detachment. A child is a guest in the house, to be loved and respected - never possessed, since he belongs to God."


..haven't read it in the original, but anyway... that's what I would expect from myself and my household. Pretty much impossible given the circumstances, so it seems the least selfish (but not least afraid) thing for me to do is bow out. Too many damaged people running around already anyway.

[MC Moot]

" A child is a guest in the house, to be loved and respected - never possessed, since he belongs to God.".

Shit, if my dad would have known that the creator might have picked up the tab for those broken windows,slop graphiti tags and "borrowed" bicycle bills I cost him......:D

[MC Moot]

To quote my own dear old Dad : "I PASSED ON A TWISTED CHROMOSOME,DAMN YOU CHILD....."


still I luvs him so.....:)

[Helvete]

I'm not having kids, I'll let the wife look after them.

[skra75]

I'm finding I don't get along with people who have decided to go their life without kids. They are usually pretty annoying.

[MC Moot]

I'm finding I don't get along with people who have decided to go their life without kids. They are usually pretty annoying.

Ya the feeling is so often mutual,breeders vs the cognisant.....I do like your Volvo's though,that's a sensible auto you've chosen.....(y)

[b i o n i c]

babies are annoying. they laugh at stupid shit. they piss and crap their pants. they drool. they can't talk. they cry. even retarded people know not to drink bleach. fuck em.

[Nivvie]

..I do like your Volvo's though,that's a sensible auto you've chosen.....(y)

Thank you! As a breeder I love my Volvo, 20 years old, 300,000 miles and still going. (y)

[ms.peachy]

I don't have a volvo. I don't even have a car. Can't be doing with all that bother.

I think it is important to point out that whilst having a kid may end life as you know it, it doesn't end your life. Everything doesn't "stop", although it may go on hold for a bit. We still travel quite a bit, for example - Mattie is only 14 months, but she has been to the US, to France, to Italy, to Germany and to Austria. Mr.p and I still go out to see bands we enjoy - maybe not as much, but we go. I still go to my book group, to my film club; he still goes to his RIBA lectures, out on Fridays to the pub with his mates. So whilst there is nothing wrong with choosing not to have a child because you are quite happy with and committed to the lifestyle you have, it's not as though you become an entirely different person as a result of having one. Do your priorities change? Definitely. Do some things you previously enjoyed have to take a back seat, sacrificed indefinitely to this mewling, leaky creature that won't let you sleep? No doubt. But you are still you, and your partner is still your partner, after all. For me I would say, even more so, now. I am still me, but I am richer in my experience of the world; the filter through which I percieve things has altered unquestionably, but I see so many more things now than I even knew possible before. My relationship with my husband is deeper and on some level just "more so" in a way I can't explain, now that he is not only 'mine' but hers as well. OK so, our sex life ain't what it used to be, what with there being this other small person in our bed much of the time. But we can communicate about that and it's beome a great source of humour and affection - she will only be this little once, we only have now to cuddle her between us in the bed; soon enough she will push us away and claim her own space. Right now, for much of the time, it is OK to withdraw a bit, to let the world go on around us, while the three of us huddle together in our little bubble. It's a lovely bubble.

Basically, whatever we choose in life, there are consequences. Life is just an endless series of forks in the road, and your journey will inevitably be shaped by the direction you take. Someone who does not have kids, well, they may well have more time and money to spend on pleasurable pursuits, and in doing so, have a set of experiences that gives their lives a shape and meaning vastly different to those who do choose family life. Neither is right, and neither is wrong. They are just different paths.

[MC Moot]

^ Mother is the word of God on every child's lips,very elegant Ms Peachy,well said.....(y)

[MC Moot]

When I thought about this subject last night it occured to me that when I clear away "my lifestyle reigns supreme" ideology and broke it all down I came up with the essential truth about why I'm not gonna do it....outside of being self-centered...

FEAR

I'm scared of society,climate change,drunk drivers,famine,violence,airplanes,cancer,war and that giant asteroid hurtling toward our planet as we speak.....

[skra75]

Ya the feeling is so often mutual,breeders vs the cognisant.....I do like your Volvo's though,that's a sensible auto you've chosen.....(y)

cute.
seriously though, I know this couple that are in their 50's and have never had kids, they are strange, miserable, self-centered people.
And whenever I meet someone who wears the no-kids badge with pride, I can't help of thinking of that.
creepy ppl

[abcdefz]

cute.
seriously though, I know this couple that are in their 50's and have never had kids, they are strange, miserable, self-centered people.
And whenever I meet someone who wears the no-kids badge with pride, I can't help of thinking of that.
creepy ppl



:rolleyes:


Do you know that they chose to, or could it be that they couldn't have kids?

I've known childless couples who are just fine, thanks.

-- and if people weren't so self-centered, why not adopt instead of bringing more kids into the world? Oh, right -- so they're "really 'our' kids."

There's a case for self-centered-ness, right there.

[ms.peachy]

I'm scared of society,climate change,drunk drivers,famine,violence,airplanes,cancer,war and that giant asteroid hurtling toward our planet as we speak.....

I think that's a very relevant concern, and I was just talking with a co-worker (who has also had a baby in the past 2 years) about the way we react to news events changes, however subtly, now that we are parents. For example, certainly everyone in Britain (unless they literally live under a rock, and even then) is familiar with the story of Madelaine McCann, the little girl who was kidnapped from her family's hotel room in Portugal two months ago. Now certainly you do not have to be a parent to empathise with the McCanns, and to imagine what the torment for them of not knowing where their little girl is and who has her and what horrible, depraved things they might be doing to her. Certainly if I was not a mother, I could still comprehend the awfulness of such a situation. But now, as a parent, news like this hits you on a whole other, more visceral level; it is impossible to not place yourself in their shoes and wonder in your very core how you could survive, how you could bear to get up out of bed every day and go on living.

I have also wondered, so many times in the past year, how women who are not as lucky as I am do it. I live in an affluent society, I have a supportive partner, I do not suffer need or want. How do women in war zones manage, when simple things like going to the market might mean you get blown up and might not make it back to your family? What must it be like to be a mother in some impoverished sub-Saharan region, watching her child waste away because there is no food? What about the woman whose partner left her when she became pregnant, or worse, who did not leave but abuses her? These are all issues I was well aware of before having a baby, but that now are things that I internally experience whereas I used to observe, if that makes sense.

[ms.peachy]

-- and if people weren't so self-centered, why not adopt instead of bringing more kids into the world? Oh, right -- so they're "really 'our' kids."



I am not for a moment disparaging adoption, but I think you need to realise, it is not a simple process. It is extremely complicated, and extremely expensive.

Unless you want to adopt an older black child with learning difficulties. Oh, but wait, no one wants do that.

My point is, adoption is not an unselfish act.

[MC Moot]

Not only senisble, but sexy.

Tricia with our forst Volvo
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f212/cmuterhyme/Volvo-P1800-ES-Rear-3-4.jpg
My current Volvo
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f212/cmuterhyme/volvo_1.jpg

They made a 4WD version of the wagon called the "cross country" a cople years back,which my kayaking buddy snagged.....I've only driven it twice but it's a riot a bigger,heavier tank like version of my WRX.....:D

[abcdefz]

I'm not sure how you go from the unfortunate near-reality of "no one wants to do that" to "adoption is not an unselfish act." I agree that adoption can be undertaken for base and selfish reasons just the same as anything else -- hell, charitable giving can be spoiled by a bad heart -- but my point is that if we're shooting for ideal selflessness in child-rearing, adoption is more selfless than planned procreation.

[ms.peachy]

if we're shooting for ideal selflessness in child-rearing, adoption is more selfless than planned procreation.

I don't agree. I don't think that it can be set out like that; it's not a black and white issue. I don't accept that there is any such thing as "ideal selflessness in child-rearing", or why anyone would want to "shoot for it", first of all. Having a child, by one means or another, is an inherently selfish act. That's not a bad thing. How do you quantify whether a person's motives for adopting are any more or less selfish than those of someone who concieves a child? And what about those women who have IVF - are they the most selfish of all, for daring to want to experience birthing their own child? I suppose they ought to feel ashamed of themselves, the greedy cows, eh?

[MC Moot]

I have also wondered, so many times in the past year, how women who are not as lucky as I am do it. I live in an affluent society, I have a supportive partner, I do not suffer need or want. How do women in war zones manage, when simple things like going to the market might mean you get blown up and might not make it back to your family? What must it be like to be a mother in some impoverished sub-Saharan region, watching her child waste away because there is no food? What about the woman whose partner left her when she became pregnant, or worse, who did not leave but abuses her? These are all issues I was well aware of before having a baby, but that now are things that I internally experience whereas I used to observe, if that makes sense.

We had a client who recently lost her baby to SIDS.....I had held this child,burped this child,made stupid faces and marveled in her wonder and realized she had no clue of the social dysfunction of the family she had been born into....she's gone and I just had passing contact in her short life and I got a black hole sun where my heart used to be when I think of that family....I can still smell her....I can not fathom losing my own blood that's the fear....:(:(:(:(

what I do: http://www.cupshealthcentre.com/oneworld.htm

[abcdefz]

I don't agree. I don't think that it can be set out like that; it's not a black and white issue. I don't accept that there is any such thing as "ideal selflessness in child-rearing", or why anyone would want to "shoot for it", first of all.




Sorry -- "shooting for it," in this context was "trying to identify on a message board what could hypothetically be the least selfish way of having/rearing a child."

No, I don't always think it's best that we get our greedy little egos out of the way, but in the world of hypotheticals, yeah, I think adopting can be inherently less selfish than procreating.

[ms.peachy]

I think your argument falls down on when you say "it can be inherently", because to me that makes no sense. It is, by definition of 'inherently', or it isn't. If you say it can be, then that also presupposes that it might not be, and of course it isn't in all cases. Which is why I am saying, you can't measure one against the other in that way; you could only examine it on a case by case basis. If a couple adopts because they can't concieve naturally, and have tried IVF and were unsuccessful, are they being any less selfish than the couple who just went and had a baby the 'usual' way? I would say no, because if they had been able to concieve, they would have.

[abcdefz]

I think your argument falls down on when you say "it can be inherently", because to me that makes no sense. It is, by definition of 'inherently', or it isn't. If you say it can be, then that also presupposes that it might not be, and of course it isn't in all cases. Which is why I am saying, you can't measure one against the other in that way; you could only examine it on a case by case basis. If a couple adopts because they can't concieve naturally, and have tried IVF and were unsuccessful, are they being any less selfish than the couple who just went and had a baby the 'usual' way? I would say no, because if they had been able to concieve, they would have.



I'm saying "inherently" because, outwardly, the most noble act can disguise pretty awful motivations, whereas the most outwardly selfish act might come from a pure heart.

So I'm not talking about adoption as a last resort -- I'm saying it can be inherently most unselfish if it's the first resort. In other words, there are already babies or young children available who need unconditional love; why, then, procreate and leave that need outstanding? That's what I'm saying, and it's definitely a hard line to take, and with people's natural impulses + our beauracracies + societal expectations etc. etc. etc., I'm not saying it's the easiest thing by a long shot. But I do think -- all other factors being exactly ideal in this philosophical situation -- it would be more selfless.

[skra75]

:rolleyes:


Do you know that they chose to, or could it be that they couldn't have kids?

I've known childless couples who are just fine, thanks.

-- and if people weren't so self-centered, why not adopt instead of bringing more kids into the world? Oh, right -- so they're "really 'our' kids."

There's a case for self-centered-ness, right there.

I endorse adoption, I love it.
I just don't like people who are so wrapped up in their own lives to ever consider raising a kid.

[ms.peachy]

In other words, there are already babies or young children available who need unconditional love; why, then, procreate and leave that need outstanding?

I think you're taking kind of a romantic notion of it. To put it in plain terms, in the US or indeed any Western nation, demand for babies/young children far outstrips supply. There are no orphanages overflowing with infants desperate for the arms of a loving parent.

In nations where there are baies or young children in need of adoption - China, some nations of the former Soviet Union, etc - adoption is a big business. Does it ultimately do good, in terms of delivering children who need homes into the hands of people who will love them? To be sure. But don't wear any rose-cloloured glasses about it - these kids are a commodity. The truly selfless act would be to work towards change in their countries of origin, so that their best hope for a future isn't being taken from their homeland because nothing exists for them there.

And there is a HUGE class issue here - only the relatively wealthy can afford the time and money of either a private American or a foreign adoption. Should we just say that working class people should not get to have any children, because it would be too selfish of them to procreate, and yet they cannot afford to adopt?

[skra75]

why, then, procreate and leave that need outstanding?

because sometimes shit happens and babies are born. You do the best you can. Also, there is an undeniable bond with those that share your blood. It's a DNA thing.

[abcdefz]

I think you're taking kind of a romantic notion of it.




Aren't hypothetical situations inherently romantic?

I am talking about a dreamland here to get to my basic point; you keep bringing it back to real-world situations to dodge that very point.

ALL THING ABSOLUTELY EQUAL YADA YADA YADA.... Make every other aspect a control subject so that the only variable is adoption or procreation. That's all I'm saying.






because sometimes shit happens and babies are born. You do the best you can. Also, there is an undeniable bond with those that share your blood. It's a DNA thing.



Waaaayyy waaaaayyy back I did injected "planned" in there, somewhere. So, yeah, I understand that. Being an accident myself, I really understand that.

[ms.peachy]

I still can't agree, because I still believe the bottom line, whether it's adoption or procreation, is that it is all done in the service of a basic biological 'need'. I get that your argument is that the choice of passing along your own genetic material is more selfish than taking on the responsibility of someone else's, but fundamentally, the drive is the same - the urge to nurture, to protect, etc - and so the choice to rear a child, regardless of how one 'acquires' said child, is ultimately in the end about satisfying one's own desires (conscious or unconscious).

[abcdefz]

Fair enough. (y)

[ms.peachy]

That was a nice discussion, I enjoyed that, thanks.

[abcdefz]

I wish I had been clearer about thirty steps back, though. :D

[hpdrifter]

I definitely want to have a child. Its not easy, though, you have to have a partner who wants the same thing at the same time. This has not been easy for me to find. I am turning 30 this year, the person I am with may or may not end up having kids with me. If this is the case and we split up, I'd go looking for someone else and that takes time. Kids may not happen for me and that makes me very sad. But I'm getting better with it, trying to look on the bright side of things.

[abcdefz]

I've always wanted three kids. One of each. (y)

[abcdefz]

Yeah, well. I knew what I was saying.

As soon as the word "hypothetical" gets introduced, then, to me, you're no longer in a real world scenario -- you're in Philosophy Land or whatever. One of many times that I forget that other people don't always argue at the same table, so to speak.

[Nivvie]

Another selfless thing to do would be to foster (although it does pay well, so not entirely selfless). One thing the UK has plenty of is children's homes with kids who need temporary or long term care, it's just they may well have behavioural difficulties, or there's the risk of heartbreak when a child has to leave. There's also lots of special needs children out there for adoption. A single women can adopt a child with Down's Syndrome, and there is funding available for other adoption projects. A friend in the states adopted two Chinese children free of charge as they are disabled.

To me, having the children, the baby itself, is over in the blink of an eye. They are little for seconds, the needs of little children and the impact on your life if fleeting, it's the need of the human you delivered throughout it's whole life that is the weighty part.
It bugs me when people have tons of little kids close together and go on about how easy it is while they are little. Little is often the easiest part.
A friend of mine has 8, as both her and her husband brought children to the marriage, and she is suffering more now than ever since they are all in their teens and early twenties. If she's not fretting about the one in Iraq she's going to pieces over the one who is now in psychiatric care. And then there's the pregnant one, the policewoman one, etc, etc. You never know what's gong to happen with these people you create.

Back when women spat kids out one every couple of years the chances are they would stay closer to home and life a life more similar to their parents, now things are so varied and it's a lot to cope with for a parent.

I wonder how The Pitt Jolie house will be once all those kids have hormones, plans and issues.

[Helvete]

All the foster kids at school were deviants.

[marsdaddy]

This is obviously the first generation where it's considered "ok" to not have kids, but I fear regretting this in later life. What are your thoughts in this?I don't think this is the first generation where it's okay to not have kids. I think this has been okay for the last two generations, at least. Plus, I think women have been taught they can have both a career and kids for the past 30 years. In reality, it's almost impossible to have kids first, so many women build their careers then run out of time to have kids.

Most of my friends and I have had our kids later in life. A couple of friends have had use science to get pregnant because they waited. For a couple, even science couldn't help.

Still, I say, don't have kids unless you or your partner are committed to having them. Because it takes committment, everyday. It completely changes your life, independence, and finances.

Both the mrs. and I always wanted kids and I'm glad we have them but it's not something to do because you're afraid you might regret not doing it later. I'll have to post some pictures soon, so people can gag, barf, and ridicule.

[kll]

I spent the day yesterday with a dear friend who has a 1-month-old daughter. She is adorable. She slept, spit up, crapped her diaper, then went home.

I enjoyed the 3 hours I was with her. Her mother is awesome and not one of those annoying coots who changes into a total retard the moment she has a child. She's not breastfeeding either, which was nice to have her whip out a bottle instead of a boob in the shoe department.

I think I'll just babysit and wait for my brother to pro-create, so I can be the fun aunt.


I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments.

[MC Moot]

^Breastfeeding is the most natural thing in the world,I can't believe some folks take offense or issue when women feed in public.....(n)

[ms.peachy]

LOL thems was fightin' words, wasn't they

I'ma leave it go though; I think it's pretty clear where I stand on the issue.

[abcdefz]

^Breastfeeding is the most natural thing in the world,I can't believe some folks take offense or issue when women feed in public.....(n)


Yeah; I don't get that.

the first time I saw it was when I was during the summer between 8th and 9th grade, visiting this teacher I had a crush on from middle school. She'd had a baby, I had popped over to say hi and see the kid, etc. We got to chatting and at some point she just started breastfeeding the baby. I was stunned for as short of time as I hope I was stunned for (maybe missed a beat or two in conversation?), but mainly because I was catching some glimpse of this beautiful lady's breast, more than anything. After that, no big deal. Seems weirder to shunt some woman off to some closed off room than to just let her do her thing. Ashamed of... of what, exactly?

[abcdefz]

New laws to protect breastfeeding? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18999858/site/newsweek/)

"We define breast-feeding as good, and we define breast-feeding as disgusting. We have this split personality about it," says Jacqueline Wolf, associate professor of the history of medicine at Ohio University. Even MySpace has recently removed photographs of mothers nursing their babies.

[MC Moot]

Yeah; I don't get that.

the first time I saw it was when I was during the summer between 8th and 9th grade, visiting this teacher I had a crush on from middle school. She'd had a baby, I had popped over to say hi and see the kid, etc. We got to chatting and at some point she just started breastfeeding the baby. I was stunned for as short of time as I hope I was stunned for (maybe missed a beat or two in conversation?), but mainly because I was catching some glimpse of this beautiful lady's breast, more than anything. After that, no big deal. Seems weirder to shunt some woman off to some closed off room than to just let her do her thing. Ashamed of... of what, exactly?

Yeah I think some people are unable to disconnect the notion that the breast is sexual not functional.......what's really twisted is that it's usually women who hold this perception.....:confused:

[abcdefz]

Really? You think so?

[MC Moot]

Well yeah,I do....what else slays me is that vast majority of mom's who decide to feed in public are pretty reserved in that they use a blanket or shawl to mostly cover themselves and people still get there knikers in a twist....really on only 3 ocassions in my life have I seen no regard or completley au natural breast exposure while feeding....and those happened in Spain with Gypsy ladies and two 3rd world country's where no such retarded social taboo exists....and I still didn't bat an eye....cause my mama raised me correct!......:cool:

http://www.promom.org/101/index.html

[SOP]

have you seen the movie Idiocracy? it's a Mike Judge (Office Space) satire. the movie isn't super fantastic but humorous and enjoyable.

Hey, I think the movie's something everyone should see. But, that's just me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAYnc_-ddlw

[Nivvie]

The odd thing is, I'll happily beastfeed discreetly under my top in a crowded place, but I've never done it in front of my parents.
Perish the thought!:eek:

[cookiepuss]

The odd thing is, I'll happily beastfeed discreetly under my top in a crowded place, but I've never done it in front of my parents.
Perish the thought!:eek:

meh..it's not easy to come out to your parents as a beast feeder.



;)

[Nivvie]

Oh No! The teeth! Pointy, nipple puncturing teeth!

:D

[kll]

well, i'm glad the breastfeeding comment sparked more discussion... i was just glad that she pulled out the bottle because it was much quicker and less of a production compared to the boobs... whatever.


i'm gonna be an aunt in february supposedly.

[abcdefz]

meh..it's not easy to come out to your parents as a beast feeder.



;)



...you'd hate for them to start getting ideas...

[Yeti]

Waking up at 5 or 5:30 am every morning, being terminally tired, washing clothes all the time, making bottles, washing bottles, changing diapers, having slobber all over your clothes, constantly stopping the child from grabbing books off shelves and sticking their finger in electric sockets......

Why not join the rest of us zombies?