communism?

[mate_spawn_die]

pardon my ignorance but...

i've been to wikipedia and all i see is nonsense. can anyone explain in as few words as possible the definition of communism?

was the vietnam war necessary? did we send all those amercians over there for a good reason? was anti-communism worth dying for? was communism that negative? what was the point?

[Jim wont fix it]

I cant say its good or bad but there's a lot of crap put about by people who dislike it. many of the original ideals are quite good but its never really worked for a nation.

Marxist/Leninist kibbutzim in Isreal have probably been the most successful use of communist ideals.

Gandhi also experimented with communism in India to combat the cast system. Gandhi was an advocate for socialism and communism, but warned that it was not the same as that imagined by the Europeans and Americans due to his views on non violence.

"Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff" - Frank Zappa

[DroppinScience]

Communism kind of goes like this...

Theory: Sounds like a good thing.

Practice: Hasn't worked and just became yet another system of oppression.

[QueenAdrock]

^Just like stop signs in China.

[memphisgreg]

Best way to understand Communism...

Read the book "The Giver"

[Carlos]

actually it goes back to 1776, and the creation of the illuminati:

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1007.html


"What were the specific plans of this New World Order? Nesta Webster, writing in her book, "World Revolution", listed the following six (6) goals:
Abolition of Monarchy and all ordered Government
Abolition of Private Property
Abolition of Inheritance
Abolition of Patriotism
Abolition of the family (i.e., of marriage and all morality, and the institution of the communal education of children) [My Note: "Communal education of children" refers to State run public education].
Abolition of all religion (Page 22)".......
"When the Masters of the Illuminati was established in 1776, they had several major goals in mind. We have already listed the Illuminati's six major goals, (see above). These six goals are indeed shocking and revolutionary. However, as shocking as this concept is, we are even more greatly shocked when we realize that these six objectives espoused by the Masters of the Illuminati match, word-for-word, the goals of organized Communism, which Karl Marx popularized in the mid-1800's. This word-for-word match leaves no room for misunderstanding: the Masters of the Illuminati created the concept of Communism. Indeed, author Nesta Webster captured this truth in her book, "World Revolution: Plot Against Civilization", written in 1921. She created a chart showing the flow of World Revolution, which she included as an insert in the back of her book. She shows a hidden Masters of the Illuminati link in the year 1871, between the European Commune and the First Internationale Congress, lead by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Clearly, Communism was created to be the exact opposite, or the Anti-Thesis, of Western Capitalism......


.....But, there is more. The philosophies of the Masters of the Illuminati and Communism are also identical. What are these philosophies?
Man is inherently good.
All of man's problems are the result of bad environment. Therefore, all man's problems can be cured if only his environment is changed. (Note: This belief resulted in the wholesale slaughter of 200 million people since 1917; the best way to immediately improve the environment is to kill everyone who will not be able to accept the new order. Since this belief is also basic to the coming age of Anti-Christ, the New World Order, does anyone hear the approaching sound of the hoofbeats of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse?)
Man's reason is supreme, and if left unfettered by religious dogma, could create an earthly utopia.
The wonderful ends justify any means necessary to achieve it. This belief is a corollary to the belief that man can achieve happiness by restructuring his environment. Thus, any action, including wholesale slaughter of people, can be justified if it advances the lofty cause."

pretty darn fucked up.. but most of history is when you peer through the cracks!!!! :eek:

[Schmeltz]

If you want to learn anything about Communism, mate spawn die, start by ignoring silly bullshit like the post above, and head over to your local library.

[Carlos]

plz elaborate exactly what is silly bullshit... I would raelly like to know.

have you studied what I have posted - or are you just automatically jumping up and down due to some irrational pre-conceptions?

[Schmeltz]

That site you posted is apocalyptic millenarian fundamentalist religious flim-flam peddling anti-Semitic bigotry and straight-up fiction as though it were actual history. It's total garbage and I will waste no more time with it or you.

[D_Raay]

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled... and so on.

[Carlos]

That site you posted is apocalyptic millenarian fundamentalist religious flim-flam peddling anti-Semitic bigotry and straight-up fiction as though it were actual history. It's total garbage and I will waste no more time with it or you.

again.. would you mind being specific as to what is fiction, and even more sepcifically what is anti-semetic or just untrue. As I am against no religion in particular, as I have do not ascribe to any of them.

Your like a police dog, if you hear certain words you start frothing at the mouth.

You are just ignorant of this, so you bark like a dog. Rather than dealing with anything raised.. oh I forgot it's 'beyond' your grand intellect. I think you should go do the reading.

maybe you'd like a dated history of it:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1887/secondessay.html
but watch both parts of this for a seriously detailed history:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2134284036772812990&q=illuminati&total=5430&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

[Schmeltz]

Carlos, your problem is that you appear to have little or no idea of what actually constitutes rational, objective inquiry. You have managed to confuse the principle of open-mindedness and bias avoidance with the very misguided notion that every available perspective on an issue deserves a fair shake, and this has led you to interpret fringe theories with no basis in reality as though they were legitimate sources of information.

Take this crap you just posted, as though it actually raises any serious questions or issues at all. Nesta Webster, whom your source presents as some kind of authority on international relations, was an occultist and Fascist who spent her life preaching the truth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, arguing strenuously in favour of Hitler's Final Solution, and pretending she was a reincarnated French noblewoman from the 18th century. This does not constitute balanced, objective history. It's nuttery. The same goes for the rest of that website in its entirety: attempting to interpret world events in light of arcane Biblical prophecy is not anything anywhere close to rationality, and the information presented therefore does not actually raise any real issues whatsoever. And the fact that this needs to be pointed out to you, that you are unable to discern these basic things for yourself, is really quite frustrating.

And if I want a historical examination of the roots of Communism, I'm not going to find it, or look for it, on somebody's Geocities page. Come on, mang. If you're going to espouse wild, insubstantial fantasy theories, at least find some kind of quasi-legimitate source of information, not just the first thing you see that presents a facade of daring challenge to the status quo.

It boils down to the fact that your approach to the interpretation of historical and world events and trends is badly flawed. You're not grounding your methodology in the reality of how history functions, man. You're choosing a very skewed perspective on how the world works, one that's too distant from reality to be relevant, either to me or to anyone else.

I mean, I never agreed on much of anything with samiam, but at least he could tell cogent material from crazy gibberish. Most of the time.

[Carlos]

ok I'll hold my hands up: bad day at the office for me yesterday.. was at work and rushed to find some links...

I apolagise for being ignorant of Nesta Webster, and I thank you scmeltz for enlightening me to this: I am never afraid to admit my wrongs, or my limited knowledge of certain subjects.

However, this does not negate the validity and reality of secret societies and their oversight of nearly all major institutions - including history: not everything you read in a book is necessarily the whole truth. And so we cannot ever be 100% sure of our history; as George Orwell very rightly made clear - history is always written by the winners, or those who maintain power.
That's why we hear nothing of the likes of Nokola Tesla, and his scientific work - literally been written out of history by the 'establishments' (science+media)

Please Schmeltz watch this video below: Maxwell goes into the many aspects of the occult (literally meaning things that are hidden), as well how facism is the name of the game for these guys: and how it's symbols are still used by our political institutions. (check out the Faces - pronounced fa-shy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_symbolism) on both sides of the podium of The House of Representatives!! (http://www.jfklibrary.org/NR/rdonlyres/4824ECB7-C7E9-47EB-A577-549C4BB6FF33/24456/4824ECB7C7E947EBA577549C4BB6FF33.jpg))
Jordan Maxwell has no affiliation with any group - religious/political/ or otherwise. His uncle was an initiated mason and high court judge, and has studied it for over 40 years. He is literally a fount of knowledge; ever wondered where the symbols that we see everywhere, and so many words/phrases orriginate - he's da man.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=8394844811105390386&q=illuminati&total=5390&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

[Schmeltz]

However, this does not negate the validity and reality of secret societies and their oversight of nearly all major institutions - including history: not everything you read in a book is necessarily the whole truth. And so we cannot ever be 100% sure of our history

See, this is the crux of the issue, Carlos. You are right when you say that we can never be absolutely certain about history, simply because such a thing is impossible. Our ever-increasing distance from the past means that our attempts to recreate and to understand it will never be perfect. Every historian (well, every real historian) is well aware of this fact and keeps it in mind when studying the past.

But how you have managed to translate this element of skepticism into belief in the most lunatic fringe theories out there is beyond me. I mean, how do you find it possible to say in the same breath that a) we can't completely trust any source of information and b) we ought to put all our stock in the most outlandish and surreal sources of information we can find? This is inconsistent at best, and foolish and blinkered at worst.

Again, take your last post for an example. The fasces are an ancient Roman symbol representing strength through unity. That's all they are. Benito Mussolini co-opted them as a propaganda tool to maintain the (totally fictional) connection he sought to make between the Roman Empire and his own fascist regime, but other people have continued to use them without any association at all with the ideology - fasces appear on the cover of the French passport and in the logos of various civil police services (like those of Spain, Norway, and Sweden). Aside from serving as a sort of tribute to a vanished society that constitutes a formative historical influence on European (and, by extension, Western) culture, it doesn't actually mean anything. And if you think it does, you're simply reading way, way too much into the symbol.

Then we have this Jordan Maxwell guy, who in addition to pretending that mystic numerology and wordplay form the basis of human mind control (again, Carlos, this is not rational or objective science) goes by at least one fake name, claims to have made a star out of David Icke and his alien lizard men, and was convicted by the FTC of fraudulently selling bogus international driver's licenses over the internet. (http://www.ftc.gov/os/caselist/jordanmaxwell/jordanmaxwell.shtm) Sounds like a real trustworthy fount of information, alright.

Look, man, of course you're entitled to pursue any method or line of investigation you choose. But when you come up with silly crap like this, that doesn't even pretend to take into account the manner in which history and human societies actually function, and try to sell it as equal in quality to the consensus view - well, I don't see how you can expect anybody to take it seriously. You're not mounting a challenge, you're just showing everyone that you don't understand what constitutes proper research or a real basis for solid knowledge.

But good luck with that anyway.

[Carlos]

..how do you find it possible to say in the same breath that a) we can't completely trust any source of information and b) we ought to put all our stock in the most outlandish and surreal sources of information we can find? This is inconsistent at best, and foolish and blinkered at worst.Well I thought we were a bit more grown up on this forum, for me not to have to point out that you don't have to put all your stock in what I am saying - that you should go out and look into the information/opinions I have.
What does get tiring is people resorting to childish remarks and lame put downs: "...silly crap like this..." etc.


Aside from serving as a sort of tribute to a vanished society that constitutes a formative historical influence on European (and, by extension, Western) culture, it doesn't actually mean anything. And if you think it does, you're simply reading way, way too much into the symbol.thing is it's your interpretation over mine - so that's not rationale, that's subjective opinion.

The 'faces' yes orriginated in rome, but unless my idea of how facists behave is way out, the Romans were pretty good facists.... lets not get tricked by words eh ;)

When it has an axe in the middle it means that the country is at war, why does the House have that type of 'faces', rather than just a bundle of birch?
It means power and control - facism didn't start with the likes of Mousalini and Hitler, they just took up the reigns. So they just adopted the old symbology.

Personally, I feel like you read way, way too little into the world.. like you have rose tinted glasses on - or rather rigid-psuedo-rational tinted glasses on.

Also instead of attacking someone's personality - kinda like O'Reilly when he hasn't a clue what someone is talking about... why don't you sit down and watch him talk. Anyway he's not saying anything that anyone else can't reseach if they dedicated enough time to it.

You are obviously a learned person of intellect. Thing is you will never watch, or read anything like this, because you have automatically thrown it out the window of fruitful research. As it falls within an imgainary boundary of your making.

I urge you to watch the video, and come back with comments. :)

[Schmeltz]

that you should go out and look into the information/opinions I have.


But Carlos I have done exactly that; I followed your links and looked up your sources and found nothing but deceit, intellectual dishonesty, and a total disregard for the principles of sound investigative inquiry. I have pointed out in detail why your information is untrustworthy and your reliance on it faulty. And when you continue to point me to such sources and tout them as critically sound and relevant material, then yeah I'm going to call you on it. Because it really is just silly crap with no place in a serious conversation.


unless my idea of how facists behave is way out, the Romans were pretty good facists


The fact that Roman society contained elements that we would probably refer to as fascist is due solely to the fact that modern fascist societies with imperialist aspirations contained a conscious element of admiration for Rome and directly sought to emulate it, in everything from civics to architecture. In addition, Roman society also contained many elements in direct opposition to the tenets of modern fascism and was much more strongly Republican in character. So you see, the Romans didn't invent fascism - fascists simply had a skewed and demented idea of what Roman society was like.

I also note that you didn't bother to address the fact that fasces continue to be used as symbols by many groups and organizations with no fascist affiliations whatsoever. This is because of its actual symbolic value as a representation of strength (or power) through unity, a value common to many Western societies who take their civic cues from ancient Rome and which really shouldn't come as a surprise. Why you insist on assigning darkly sinister aspects to these commonplace human practices is beyond me, but I suspect it has something to do with your inability to critically assess information - which weakens your interpretation vis-a-vis my own.


Also instead of attacking someone's personality


I didn't attack his personality at all, and I don't know where you could possibly have gotten that impression. I attacked his credentials, which are absolutely nil, and his trustworthiness, which is also nonexistent. This is why I will not waste time taking in his insubstantial, worthless material. I'll say it again: you'd do much better to be more discerning and critical when selecting your sources.

[EN[i]GMA]

Why would I waste my time watching this video? 20 minutes in and all he's done is rambled on about God. The only people who talk about God that much are crazy people on street corners or religious fundamentalists, who are just crazy people in the street corner in nicer clothes. And his clothes looked like crap. So what are we left with?