A People's History of the United States

[DroppinScience]

Just finished this amazing book. Needless to say, there's many things to talk about, it's difficult to know where to start. Just... wow! I'll probably flesh out my points later.

Anyone else read it?

Howard Zinn is the man. Now I gotta read "Voices of A People's History of the United States" soon.

[Schmeltz]

I haven't read the entire thing, but I did go through most of it a few years ago - had a roommate who owned it and I'd sneak a chapter when he wasn't reading it himself. Fantastic read. (y)

[Documad]

I'm glad that you enjoyed it. Reading it is a sort of right of passage for American college students.

I sometimes think that it's the only book Springsteen ever read -- he used to mention it in many of his interviews post Born in the USA.

[abcdefz]

^

Like politicians and preachers, he knows that you have to repeat something ad nauseum before people even begin to hear it. He was very big on that book and just wanted to stump for it.

Woody Guthrie: A Life by Joe Klein, too. Right about the same time.

[yeahwho]

Ron Kovic's Born on the Fourth of July apparently was the motivation for Darkness on the Edge of Town.

[GreenEarthAl]

I much preferred A People's History of the World by Chris Harmon

(available on the internet for free (http://www.istendency.net/node/view/7))

[DroppinScience]

One thing I would like to recommend alongside the books is the DVD "Readings from Voices of a People's History of the United States" which was an event where various speakers (such as Wallace Shawn, Paul Robeson Jr., and others) read passages from the various dissident speakers that Howard Zinn quoted in both "A People's History..." and the companion book "Voices of a People's History..."

There was really powerful readings, especially the one for Frederick Douglass' speech addressing the significance of the 4th of July in the eyes of African-Americans.

Things like this really open your eyes to the truths of the dark side of American history. Sure, I was conscious of many of the things that Zinn discussed in his books, but to see it given a full context is just eye-opening to say the least.

But most importantly of all, what I appreciate about Howard Zinn is that there's even a certain sense of optimism even in the face of centuries of injustice after injustice towards Native Americans, women, blacks, laborers, etc. etc. He shows how it's possible to organize and make very important victories (e.g. abolitionists, trade unionists, feminists and the like), even if the victories may be temporary. He shows how the value of civil disobedience is crucially necessary to challenge the authorities.

When reading it, I couldn't help but be forced to re-evaluate some leaders I have held in high esteem, even if I was previously aware of their flaws (such as JFK or FDR... and even Clinton, though I knew he was never what he was cracked up to be). About the few things I still view in a positive light is the New Deal, even though it took awhile for the positive effects to get going... and even when it did some good, it didn't reach nearly enough people like it should have (read: minorities). And that's only a very small samplings of the issues faced in the book.

So in essence, what it has finally taught me is that in order to get positive change going, you can't sit around and hope that any President or Congress (be it Democrat or Republican) will be our knight in shining armor and fix all the problems. You, the people, have to always pressure the leaders (doesn't matter who it is on any given day) in order to make things better, because Lord knows, they're not going to think of it all by themselves, what with all the corporations and lobbyists they're in bed with.

[SobaViolence]

I've read a bunch of 'novellas' of his, little 100 page(approx.) blurbs about history and politics a few years back.
the man is gold.

[Bob]

primarily, this book has opened my eyes to how irredeemably evil white people can be. i've read the first two chapters so far and jesus. i think i wanna get a racectomy, i don't like having that heritage. the first chapter, about the indians, that was just horrifying. how the fuck can people do that shit to people?

[EN[i]GMA]

primarily, this book has opened my eyes to how irredeemably evil white people can be. i've read the first two chapters so far and jesus. i think i wanna get a racectomy, i don't like having that heritage. the first chapter, about the indians, that was just horrifying. how the fuck can people do that shit to people?

I sometimes wonder what people in the future will look back on as barbarism from out time.

Aside from the obvious things like illegal wars, I think our treatment of prisoners will be seen as pretty ruthless.

[Bob]

GMA;1543557']I sometimes wonder what people in the future will look back on as barbarism from out time.

Aside from the obvious things like illegal wars, I think our treatment of prisoners will be seen as pretty ruthless.

low wage workers have it pretty rough

immigrants too, probably

oh and the health care system, most of the world already thinks it's pretty backwards already

[DroppinScience]

primarily, this book has opened my eyes to how irredeemably evil white people can be. i've read the first two chapters so far and jesus. i think i wanna get a racectomy, i don't like having that heritage. the first chapter, about the indians, that was just horrifying. how the fuck can people do that shit to people?

Yeah, that's kind of what I felt reading the book. BUT if you read on, you will see Zinn championing the abolitionists (some of whom were white), the labor unions, and the like.

Have you read about the (white) indentured servants? Yep, there was (more or less) white slavery in the U.S., too.

[Bob]

Yeah, that's kind of what I felt reading the book. BUT if you read on, you will see Zinn championing the abolitionists (some of whom were white), the labor unions, and the like.

Have you read about the (white) indentured servants? Yep, there was (more or less) white slavery in the U.S., too.

yeah, i read that part too. i'm really not trying to slam howard zinn or anything, he's just telling it like it is (or was, i guess) and the truth was that rich white people have been (and some still are) horrible horrible bastards. i mean that's just pure, objective evil, what they did to the indians and the africans. i really can't imagine the mindset that's required for a person to do that to people and still be able to sleep at night. and i'm training to be a lawyer!

i bought the book back in college; in an english class, we were studying the colonial period and the professor assigned an excerpt of the book from chapter 2; the part where the settlers starved in the winter and ate each others' corpses. i said to myself "nobody ever even suggested to me in high school that the settlers of america ever ate corpses, i have absolutely got to see what else is in this book" so i bought it, but i've only recently started reading it.

personally i'm really curious to see how he treats WWII. i mean by all accounts, if there was ever going to be a justified war that america was ever involved in, that would be the one, but i'm genuinely curious to hear the other side of it. i mean, that's the one war that america gets shit from for not entering soon enough, so yeah, i'm looking forward to that chapter.

[DroppinScience]

personally i'm really curious to see how he treats WWII. i mean by all accounts, if there was ever going to be a justified war that america was ever involved in, that would be the one, but i'm genuinely curious to hear the other side of it. i mean, that's the one war that america gets shit from for not entering soon enough, so yeah, i'm looking forward to that chapter.

I don't really want to give it away, but if you continue to read up on Zinn's material, you'll know that he was a bombardier during WWII and believed in the American cause wholeheartedly throughout the war and saw the fascist empires of Japan and Germany as evil. After the war ended, he started thinking back on what he was doing. Though Zinn still knew full well of the evil the U.S. and the Allies were fighting, he realized the not-so-noble motivations for fighting (coupled with post-WW2 policy to contrast it) that went alongside the very real and moral motivations for fighting. In particular, Zinn was part of a bombing mission near the very end of the war that saw the first use of napalm in armed conflict. He was told they were using this new weapon on some German soldiers stationed in the north of France (a little town called Royan, France). They were essentially just sitting there, waiting for the war to end (and it would end within weeks, I believe).. The end result? He and his crew ended up dropping napalm on French civilians.

Essentially, he was appalled at the amount of civilian casualties the Allies inflicted in Germany and Japan (including, of course, the A-bomb on Hiroshima), especially in light of the fact that Germany was indiscriminantly killing British civilians in London and we viewed this tactic as "barbaric." So to see the Allies do the exact same thing a few years later, he was apalled. He likes to cite books like "Catch-22" for commenting on these Allied atrocities (i.e. the excessive bombing of [usually] civilian targets that made little to no sense militarily).

Also, WW2 is highly touted as a war to combat imperialism, yet the Allied powers were flagrant abusers when it came to their empires (e.g. after WW2, the U.S. and co. allowed France to re-claim control of all their colonies).

It's not so much that the U.S. and others shouldn't have been fighting the Axis, it's more or less to think about HOW they fought that war and did they truly live up to the aspirations they were hoping to strive towards upon the war's conclusion.

Zinn kind of takes the "just war" theory and tears it up. He believes in the "just cause" of the war, but doesn't believe you can call ANY war a "just war" simply because of the amounts of innocents that die (at the hands of either side of a conflict) as a consequence.

It's all very good food for thought, I'd say.

[Bob]

that's really interesting, i wasn't aware that he served in WWII (but i suppose i'm not surprised, most people his age probably did). i'll keep that in mind when i get to that chapter.

[drizl]

definately on my to read list.

[NoFenders]

primarily, this book has opened my eyes to how irredeemably evil white people can be. i've read the first two chapters so far and jesus. i think i wanna get a racectomy, i don't like having that heritage. the first chapter, about the indians, that was just horrifying. how the fuck can people do that shit to people?

Different times. Kill or be killed was the mindset.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

GMA;1543557']I sometimes wonder what people in the future will look back on as barbarism from out time.

Aside from the obvious things like illegal wars, I think our treatment of prisoners will be seen as pretty ruthless.

As it should be.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

It's not so much that the U.S. and others shouldn't have been fighting the Axis, it's more or less to think about HOW they fought that war and did they truly live up to the aspirations they were hoping to strive towards upon the war's conclusion.



I'd say by the end of the war people were fed up. You had Japan and Germany taking wild measures in desperation. Anything goes was a mindset of most. Reasonably so. Easy to sit and look years later and say boohoo. Wondering what the supreme being has in store for you. You live, you die.
:cool:

[Bob]

Different times. Kill or be killed was the mindset.

:cool:

lol it wasn't really the indians' mindset. or the settlers' mindset for that matter. it was more like

indians: new people have arrived, let's welcome them and be hospitable, as is our custom

settlers: we heard there was gold here; you there, brown person, find me some gold or i'll cut off your hands

[NoFenders]

Those Indians were some ruthless mofos. They weren't all peace and love as some would have you believe. They were just as barbaric as the white guy. However, I do agree that things were chaotic then, and the white guy probably pushed a little hard.

You know, they say if wasn't the white guy heading over and spoiling all the fun for the Indian, that the Aztecs were heading north and they would have been extremely ruthless on the Indian. So, I guess, they had it comming either way. I don't know.

:cool:

[drizl]

you can say violence is violence, but genocide and continued oppression is more. the native americans in this country were slaughtered by the millions. at one point the government of california was offering a nickel for an indian scalp. thats fucked up. long live ishi.

[Bob]

Those Indians were some ruthless mofos. They weren't all peace and love as some would have you believe. They were just as barbaric as the white guy. However, I do agree that things were chaotic then, and the white guy probably pushed a little hard.

You know, they say if wasn't the white guy heading over and spoiling all the fun for the Indian, that the Aztecs were heading north and they would have been extremely ruthless on the Indian. So, I guess, they had it comming either way. I don't know.

:cool:

from the book

In that first year of the white man in Virginia, 1607, Powhatan had addressed a plea to John Smith that turned out prophetic. How authentic it is may be in doubt, but it is so much like so many Indian statements that it may be taken as, if not the rough letter of that first plea, the exact spirit of it:

I have seen two generations of my people die.... I know the difference between peace and war better than any man in my country. I am now grown old, and must die soon; my authority must descend to my brothers, Opitehapan, Opechancanough and Catatough-then to my two sisters, and then to my two daughters-I wish them to know as much as I do, and that your love to them may be like mine to you. Why will you take by force what you may have quietly by love? Why will you destroy us who supply you with food? What can you get by war? We can hide our provisions and run into the woods; then you will starve for wronging your friends. Why are you jealous of us? We are unarmed, and willing to give you what you ask, if you come in a friendly manner, and not so simple as not to know that it is much better to eat good meat, sleep comfortably, live quietly with my wives and children, laugh and be merry with the English, and trade for their copper and hatchets, than to run away from them, and to lie cold in the woods, feed on acorns, roots and such trash, and be so hunted that I can neither eat nor sleep. In these wars, my men must sit up watching, and if a twig break, they all cry out "Here comes Captain Smith!" So I must end my miserable life. Take away your guns and swords, the cause of all our jealousy, or you may all die in the same manner.

[NoFenders]

Yeah, I don't buy that. They had weapons and used them at will. This is hocus pocus. jmo

:cool:

[Bob]

i suppose i can't argue with that, you've clearly done a lot of research

[Schmeltz]

The systematic genocide perpetuated in the Americas by European settlers - through warfare, enslavement, cultural and economic dislocation, and especially disease - may have cut the hemisphere's pre-Columbian population by ninety percent over just a few decades. And that's not my opinion, that's the hard facts. Your own opinion might be more substantial with a little more knowledge to back it up, given that history remains unchanged whether you "buy" it or not.

[drizl]

The Lakota Indians, who gave the world legendary warriors Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, have withdrawn from treaties with the United States, leaders said Wednesday.

"We are no longer citizens of the United States of America and all those who live in the five-state area that encompasses our country are free to join us," long-time Indian rights activist Russell Means told a handful of reporters and a delegation from the Bolivian embassy, gathered in a church in a run-down neighborhood of Washington for a news conference. (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/071220/8/3db9.html)

[DroppinScience]

Some great news. "A People's History" is coming to TV! (y)

http://www.variety.com/VR1117977468.html

http://www.boston.com/ae/celebrity/articles/2007/12/12/slam_dunk_santas/

[QueenAdrock]

So I guess this means the time I was looking forward to seeing you during the hiatus of 24 will be spent on this instead?

Fuck you, Howard Zinn.

[DroppinScience]

It looks like "A People's History" will get published in comic book form now as well: "A People's History of American Empire."

http://www.holtzbrinckpublishers.com/henryholt/search/SearchBookDisplay.asp?BookKey=2207687

I'm glad Zinn is always there with the good fight. (y)

[DroppinScience]

Okay, here is the official trailer for "The People Speak" TV special that is slated for September 2008.

Many stars (such as Danny Glover, Viggo Mortensen, Marisa Tomei, John Legend, etc.) give readings from many of the most prominent dissidents throughout American history (such as Malcolm X, Abbie Hoffman, Cindy Sheehan, Sojourner Truth, Public Enemy, etc.).

This trailer is just amazing!

http://howardzinn.org/video/thepeoplespeak.mov (Quicktime version)

And good ol' YouTube version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZjJnkIam7M

[funk63]

primarily, this book has opened my eyes to how irredeemably evil white people can be. i've read the first two chapters so far and jesus. i think i wanna get a racectomy, i don't like having that heritage. the first chapter, about the indians, that was just horrifying. how the fuck can people do that shit to people?


howbout opened your eyes to how evil people can be. assholes and murderers come in every color. i know u dont need specific examples.. and im 1/4 ojibwe indian and 1/4 cherokee, do u think I hold a grudge? of course not. nor should you feel guilt for something you had no control of, especially when alot more good has been done in america then bad, IMO.

[alien autopsy]

as much good as has been done by americans, how much our government holds us back from truth and true freedom...from better things.

[DroppinScience]

I know I'm using my thread as a dumping ground for various Howard Zinn developments, but this is a very good column Zinn wrote that pretty much captures what he's about and what he's been doing for the last 40-some years.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/02/8031/

Empire or Humanity?
What the Classroom Didn’t Teach Me About the American Empire
by Howard Zinn

With an occupying army waging war in Iraq and Afghanistan, with military bases and corporate bullying in every part of the world, there is hardly a question any more of the existence of an American Empire. Indeed, the once fervent denials have turned into a boastful, unashamed embrace of the idea.

However, the very idea that the United States was an empire did not occur to me until after I finished my work as a bombardier with the Eighth Air Force in the Second World War, and came home. Even as I began to have second thoughts about the purity of the “Good War,” even after being horrified by Hiroshima and Nagasaki, even after rethinking my own bombing of towns in Europe, I still did not put all that together in the context of an American “Empire.”
I was conscious, like everyone, of the British Empire and the other imperial powers of Europe, but the United States was not seen in the same way. When, after the war, I went to college under the G.I. Bill of Rights and took courses in U.S. history, I usually found a chapter in the history texts called “The Age of Imperialism.” It invariably referred to the Spanish-American War of 1898 and the conquest of the Philippines that followed. It seemed that American imperialism lasted only a relatively few years. There was no overarching view of U.S. expansion that might lead to the idea of a more far-ranging empire — or period of “imperialism.” ...

AND an animated video of this essay narrated by Viggo Mortensen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg&e