Impeachment: If not now, when?

[yeahwho]

Hey lamer's, how do you like your USofA now? Shit even the president's ex voice (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2007/11/mcclellan_president_and_others.html) is telling us he was sent out to lie for our trusted "sworn in" public servant. WTF does logical thought process tell you? Give this administration a free ride and let the world know we gave up on civil liberties, justice and any sort of human decency?

Let's Impeach the the Vice President! Polls show that 74 percent of Democrats and the majority of American adults support impeaching Cheney. "Never in our history have the high crimes and misdemeanors been so flagrant, and the people of our country know it," writes local author Richard Behan.

For the first time in the history of the Gallup Poll, 50 percent of respondents say they "strongly disapprove" of the president. Richard Nixon had reached the previous high, 48 percent, just before an impeachment inquiry was launched in 1974. With these numbers, why aren't Bush and Cheney gone already?

George Bush and Dick Cheney promote an imperial presidency. They assert that the executive is the most powerful branch of government, undermining the judiciary and Congress in violation of the Constitution's bedrock principle of shared power among three co-equal branches. This subverts the very nature of our system of government.

"This is an attempt by the president to have the final word on his own constitutional powers, which eliminates the checks and balances that keep the country a democracy. ... That's a big problem because that's essentially a dictatorship," Fein said.

Read and Opine please, Seattle Post-Intelligencer Nov.24, 2007 (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/340904_focusimpeachment25.html)

[QueenAdrock]

How do you expect to get that done, though? Who will do it? It's great that people would support it if it came down to a vote, but it's not our choice, it's the shithead politicians' choice. And I don't see any of them coming through and focusing on any impeachment proceedings. To me, the Democrats seem to be too spineless to want to "rock the boat" and the Republicans seem to back the president and vice president (still....). I just don't see it happening, no matter how much I'd like it to.

[Bob]

Hey lamer's, how do you like your USofA now?

you know, this is just not the way to get people to consider your points. i mean you never heard martin luther king say "listen up you shitheads, you judge a person by the content of their character, not the color of their skin, what's so fucking hard to understand about this?"

i mean he'd be right, but he'd never reach anyone like that

[yeahwho]

Look you shithead's, perhaps the whole fucked up idea of impeachment seems like an unobtainable goal in your minds, here where I live (Seattle) and the people I associate with and meet on a daily basis have stopped feeling like it is unobtainable.

Do something to fulfill your ideas, I do not think impeachment is unobtainable. Do you know Nancy Pelosi only needs enough signatures to begin this proceeding. If you had the chance to sign a letter demanding impeachment proceedings against Cheney began would you sign it?

[Bob]

i'm not saying i'm not behind an impeachment movement, i'm saying that you're acting like a douche about it

no offense, but this shit is why i stopped being political. i used to be pretty liberal, but i've become less and less so, and i mean i still consider myself to be left of center, but i just feel so alienated because you fuckers keep trying to guilt trip and insult everybody into getting behind whatever it is that you're fighting for, would it kill you to be civil now and then? i mean do you really honestly in your heart of hearts expect rightwingers to read your posts and go "my god, he's right! i am a lamer! where can i sign?!"

all this shit does is put people on the defensive, hell, it's beginning to put me on the defensive and i'd actually prefer to agree with you, but you make it damn hard sometimes

the only crowd that this kind of stuff is going to appeal to is the crowd that already agrees with you and what's the point of that?

(i'm drunk, i'll probably be apologizing for this post in the morning but i'm sure i have a point)

[YoungRemy]

here where I live (Seattle) and the people I associate with and meet on a daily basis have stopped feeling like it is unobtainable.


tell me, when this is all over in about 365 days, will you consider your daily efforts by you and your associates a failure?

how come all these war protests haven't stopped the war?

how come all these demands of impeachment since 2001 haven't led to anyone's impeachment yet?

I'm just curious, call me apathetic, but I don't think protests or calls for impeachment actually DO anything...

[Bob]

i'm still drunk actually but i already want to apologize

the thing is, i go to the most liberal law school in the universe (and it's a contender for most liberal higher education institution in the universe) and as a not-terribly-political-but-i'd-like-to-stand-for-things kind of guy i just feel alienated everywhere i go because everyone's so damn militantly passionate about things, and they make it a point to make you feel like a piece of shit for not caring/knowing much about whatever it is that they're passionate about. and fuck me, there are so many things to care about, i can't walk down the hall without feeling guilty about not knowing about the plight of the bosnians or the darfurians or the palestinians or the isreaelites or the americans or whoever, basically i took it out on you over the internet and i apologize about that, but i do wish everyone would just stop being so insulting about these things, that's no way to win hearts and minds that haven't been won already

[yeahwho]

If my indelicate sensibilities offend the few of us left here, that is at least a start into the actual discussion of what has become one of the most important decisions now confronting Americans.

Impeaching these guys is a real option. I haven't been out of Western Washington for a few months but I've noticed more and more of a like mind. Be it bumper stickers, radio shows, local papers or just people out at dinner or in the mall, we've had it up here in the Seattle area with being associated with this sort of damaging buffoonery the Bush administration promotes.

My frustration comes from fellow posters who ask why some of the sharpest and more intellectual posters come, then go from here. It's obvious we've been deceived from our elected officials, remember this thread (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=51242&highlight=impeach+bush)?

That was a few years back...(best put ericq on ignore) and it is part of why I used lamers in my first post.

I'm just a messenger, not a very talented one, so fuck me, maybe this whole "Impeach Bush" idea has "Jumped the Shark".

[QueenAdrock]

I do not think impeachment is unobtainable. Do you know Nancy Pelosi only needs enough signatures to begin this proceeding. If you had the chance to sign a letter demanding impeachment proceedings against Cheney began would you sign it?


Yes I would, but I'm not in Congress. It's nice that 74% of everyday Democrats would support an impeachment of Cheney, but that doesn't mean anything. Do you have any statistics of how many in Congress would like to see this happen? Like I said, the Democrats are pretty spineless, since they're barely holding onto a majority and don't want to do anything to screw that up in 2008, so I don't see majority of them really coming out in favour of impeachment proceedings.

It's like now, majority of the people think that we should be out of Iraq, but just because the public wants it doesn't mean that we can do anything to influence Congress. Sadly, the days of 1960-protests are over and instead replaced with apathy and general acceptance that we can't have better. Which is why I don't think that it's obtainable.

If you do have a realistic way that we can somehow get the politicians to change their minds, I'd love to hear it...but like I said, I'm not optimistic.

[drizl]

great, lets just sit on our asses and feel sorry for ourselves.

meanwhile, more and more innocent bodies pile up, our country becomes more and more vulnerable as we create more and mroe enemies. its a vicious cycle that leads straight to shit.

at this point, democrat and republican makes no difference. there is a political ideology in control, or more correctly, a small group of assholes using a political ideology to create wars, lie to people, kill them and profit from thier deaths. its been going on for a long time, it is the basis of our foreign policy and if you let it, it will continue to control america.

so figure something out. there are millions of things you can do.

it has to come from all angles at once, then they are overwhelmed and stunned.

we arent going to do this with politicians. ron paul will be dead before that happens. there is no hope in the system, only in the ability to change it. we need to take back america or this disease will continue to plague the rest of the world.

[QueenAdrock]

That's all nice and good, but unfortunately, the same old rhetoric I've heard for yeaaaars and still has failed to make any difference.

It's great to pretend that the disenfranchised will rise up and speak out against crooked politicians, but it's definitely different in reality. Majority of the people don't care to because they're either apathetic, scared, or both. They're too busy to care, they've got other things to worry about, and these are the people that you cannot convince to "start a revolution." I know, because I tried back in my more idealistic days. I'm sick of idealism, I'd like to hear an actual palpable way to get people to care. And it's sad, but I honestly don't think there's a way to get a substantial amount of people to care enough to rise up and have a say against their government, not in America.

At this point in time, mass revolution in America is not a possibility. A small revolution that may be quelled by the police just as quicky as it started, sure. But an actual revolution that will change the face of politics as we see it...no.

[NoFenders]

Look you shithead's, perhaps the whole fucked up idea of impeachment seems like an unobtainable goal in your minds, here where I live (Seattle) and the people I associate with and meet on a daily basis have stopped feeling like it is unobtainable.

Do something to fulfill your ideas, I do not think impeachment is unobtainable. Do you know Nancy Pelosi only needs enough signatures to begin this proceeding. If you had the chance to sign a letter demanding impeachment proceedings against Cheney began would you sign it?

You and the people you associate with on a daily basis are out of touch. Nancy Pelosi has done great things so far hasn't she??? What a joke. You should realise by now that they are all the same.

:cool:

[NoFenders]

Impeaching these guys is a real option. I haven't been out of Western Washington for a few months but I've noticed more and more of a like mind. Be it bumper stickers, radio shows, local papers or just people out at dinner or in the mall, we've had it up here in the Seattle area with being associated with this sort of damaging buffoonery the Bush administration promotes.



Move it to Canada.

:cool:

[QueenAdrock]

Yeah, yeahwho, you're more than welcome at my place. Living in DC was a constant worry since we had such an inept government behind the wheel, and I was always afraid of Metro bombings on the way to work. Here, I have free health care, no fear of terrorism, cheaper tuition for a better program, minimum wage is $8, and the best thing is if anyone complains, people take notice and care and try to change for the better, rather than say "If you don't like it you can get out," or tell me that I'm un-American. (y)

[drizl]

lots of people have protested dubya's decision making since he got into office here in this country. unfortunately, the media barely touches upon it and when they do, they misreport, botch the numbers, or rub it off as "another protest". its part of the art of media in our current "democracy".

millions have protested against the iraq war
millions (at least several hundred of thousands) have protested the governments hadnling of 9-11.
-and in all protests in this country, there are people sharing in the idea of impeachment.

i dont want to see dubya try and go to war with iran, but if he does, i think it might be the last straw. people are fed up.


ive been involved in major protests in san francisco, NYC and chicago and nothing beats the feeling of rallying together with tens of thousands of people and uniting for a cause, when things feel so hopeless and frustrating. you might be doing yourself a favor to get out and try and do something about it.

[drizl]

At this point in time, mass revolution in America is not a possibility. A small revolution that may be quelled by the police just as quicky as it started, sure. But an actual revolution that will change the face of politics as we see it...no.

a mass revolution is the only possibility

[Bob]

a mass revolution is the only possibility

and then what will the mass do?

[Documad]

I'm pretty sure that's when the army takes over.

[drizl]

and then what will the mass do?

reasses our values.

[yeahwho]

The general consensus amongst BBMB folks is GWB is a fucked up president who's done some serious damage to the planet, but it's fine because the next president isn't going to be so bad. Or is that too gray an area? What is the Black & white of it?

[Bob]

reasses our values.

what, like "we just overthrew the government...let's sit down quietly and reflect"?

i would expect something a little more chaotic

[Documad]

The general consensus amongst BBMB folks is GWB is a fucked up president who's done some serious damage to the planet, but it's fine because the next president isn't going to be so bad. Or is that too gray an area? What is the Black & white of it?

That's not my position. I think that we generally get the president we deserve. We knew that he was a dangerous right wing idiot before we elected him the first time, and we had proof positive before we elected him the second time. Majority rule. If we can't get enough reasonable people to the polls in each state to elect a reasonable president, then we are stuck with what we get. Yes, a president can be impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors, but you really have to prove that he did something big and illegal. You can't just be upset that he used incredibly poor judgment or that you disagree with his positions -- especially when he's doing what the people who elected him (powerful corporate interests and religious nuts) wanted him to do. The US congress doesn't get to second guess the choice of the American people.

I mostly blame the youngish, moderate men and women who don't want to soil themselves by getting involved in politics. They know that the corporations shouldn't get to pick our president, they sort of care about the environment, and it's their future we're mortgaging for our foreign wars, but they don't want to get involved, because the system isn't to their liking and they think both major parties and candidates are the same. Bullshit. Would the world be different today if Gore had been elected instead of Bush? Of course it would. Would the world be better in four years if Hillary Clinton is our next president instead of Huckabee/Guiliani/Romney? Of course it would. I don't think I've ever liked a democratic president (I spent most of Bill Clinton's term pissed off at him). But good god there is always a real difference between the two candidates, who their friends are, and how they use their power.

If you piss and moan at home and don't take a stand for the lesser of two evils, you're sponsoring the greater of two evils. That's the reality of American politics. But by all means, go and waste your time on a candidate who's kooky and cool and who will never get elected. Or better yet, just stay home and complain to your friends. (P.S. I'm not talking to Yeahwho, because none of this applies to him.)

[yeahwho]

(P.S. I'm not talking to Yeahwho, because none of this applies to him.)
I figured you wasn't talking to me, but that is a very good response to why we are stuck with an agenda minded president who makes others around him fall for his illegal decisions.

The intelligence community is now stating that Iran shelved their nuclear weapons program in 2003. I take this as a signal that GWB is officially a lame duck or they no longer will be implicit with the current scheme of this administration.

High crimes have been committed within this administration. I do disagree with what the democrats are capable of doing, the majority congress have done two things so far, Abdicate and Capitulate (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/opinion/11sun1.html).

[drizl]

lets not forget that impeachment proceedings took place with president clinton for a blow job. impeachment will only happen if the elite want it to. ordinary citizens, unless backed by millions upon millions, will not be able to move anyone in washington. except for a few brave, genuine politicians.

but for the most part, you ahve to sell your soul to be elected, or you already did in the corporate world and have been placed in a position to benefit the corporate world from a political standpoint, OR, you are looking to bank on your pension plan. of course, there is one exception in the candidacy for 08 president, and in my opinion, the only hope for real change in this country by way of presidency, RON PAUL.

however, were ron paul elected, he would probably be shot/assasinated. but the elite will probably find ways of continuing their battle against him...oh wait, they can just use those sequoia and diebold voting machines and then there is nothing to worry about, we can fix any election! or if that doesnt work, we'll pull some strings in florida again. there is little hope.


something that really needs to be beaten into every american citizens head is that GWB is nothing new to this country. he is only continuing on the legacy of political corruption. that is why there are secret societies forged by the elite, to protect their fraternal bllodlines, to ensure that the most powerful people in this country, in the world, are given seats to protect the illegitimately, hopelessly corrupt. for the last hundred years or so, presidents have been put in place to benefit the corporate interests, to start wars and expand (imperialistically, colonially) US influence around the globe. it is only in the age of information, where we have peaked today, where people can access news, leaks, whistleblowers etc... so rapidly, and understandingly in the presence of the corporate media politicorruption...that we can reawlly start to see through the veils of misinformation, lies, and agendas.

heres a brief rundown of our foreign policy these last hundred or so years:


1.manifest destiny- the annihilation and reservationism of the native americans, indigenous inhabitants of north america.

2.seizing of mexicos claimed territories of the western united states.

3. seizing spanish colonies of cuba and phillipines (basically declaring war on spain in year 1900)

4. seizing puerto rico and guam. overthrowing hawaiian government and establishing a military base at pearl harbor..

5.within the next 20 years, invading mexico, china, russia, north africa, central america and the carribean.
-fact: between 1898-1934 we invaded cuba 4 times, nicaragua 5 times, honduras 7 times, dominican republic 4 times, haiti 2 times, guatemala once, panama 2 times, mexico 3 times and columbia 4 times!

GENERAL SMEDLEY BUTLER, one of the most decorated marines, leader of many of the "expeditions" into central america stated after retiring:

"i spent 33 years in active military service. and during that period i spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for big business, for wall street and the bankers. in short, i was a racketeer, a gangster for capitolism. thus i helped make mexico and especially tampico safe for american oil interests in 1914. i helped make haiti and cuba a decent place for national city bank to collect refenues in. i helped in the raping of half a dozen central american republics for the benefit of wall street. i helped purify nicaragua for the international banking house of brown brothers in 1902-1912. i brought light to the dominican republic for american sugar interests in 1916. in china in 1927, i helped see to it that standard oil went on its way unmolested."

6. world war I, so that we could benefit from a fair share of the spoils from the war.

7. world war II with hiroshima and nagasaki.

8. korea from 1950-1953 (4,500,000 koreans dead, 75% innocent civilians)

9. dominican republic again in 1965.

10. vietnam 1964-1973.

11. lebanon and grenada 1982-83

12. libya 1986

13. central america during the reagan administration

14. israel and palestine

15. first iraq war in 1991

16. kosovo in 1999

and then post 9-11, afghanistan, iraq again and next stop, iran.


of course this not mentioning all of the cia backed overthrows, assasination attempts, the school of the americas, the cold war, war by economic sanctioning....


why all of this? to expand the american empire, rape countries of their resources, establish military bases around the world, and build the american economy to superpower status. its not hard to see that america is a bastard, killing hundreds of millions of innocent people to be where we are today- iraq, afghanistan and now iran. what has changed if anything? well, for one thing, we no longer have any excuse to be so ignorant to let our government carry on in this murderous manner.

[drizl]

we dont get the president we deserve, we get the president that the elite want and need. america is a dying dream, maybe dead already. we must wake up, it is the only way we can stop this.

[Documad]

we dont get the president we deserve, we get the president that the elite want and need. america is a dying dream, maybe dead already. we must wake up, it is the only way we can stop this.

The elite have a very small percentage of the vote in every state. The shocking thing is that a tiny minority of super rich people get the poor and middle class people who are the most hurt by the minority's agenda to vote against their own interests year after year. Why do they vote against their own interests? Because they're terrified of gay people and godless liberals. :rolleyes: They vote for the party of Karl Rove and Dick Cheney because they think it's the party with the best morals! How stupid is that?

[drizl]

i agree. politics, especially the american brand of democracy, is so full of hatred, corruption, lies, and downright hypocracy. and when it comes to electing a rpesident, its like its set up between two choices for us. this republican or that democrat. and like the last election of bush and kerry, both were members of the skull and bones!

[ericg]

http://www.salem-news.com/printview.php?id=6932

http://www.wexlerwantshearings.com/

BREAKING: Impeach Activists Sitting-in at Nadlers Office, Requesting Calls for Support
by Sue4theBillofRights
Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:43:25 AM PST

A group of activists from WorldCantWait.org are sitting in at Congressman Jerry Nadler's office (D-NY) saying they will not leave until he pushes impeachment through the Judiciary Committee. Nadler is a key member of Judish who could get the impeachment hearings ball rolling against Dick Cheney. The citizens sitting in at the office are requesting people to call Nadler's office directly as they perform their action, and to ask that he "support pushing the impeachment process against Dick Cheney through the House Judiciary Committee." NADLER'S OFFICE NUMBER: 202-225-5635 FAX NUMBER: 202-225-6923

[drizl]

just called and spoke to a woman at nadlers office. apparently some of the protesters were arrested, she was unable to tell me if all of them were. :mad: