Leave Iraq

[Waus]

How soon can we leave?

Can we leave right now?

Why or why not?





You will have 20 minutes to answer this question, please use a number 2 pencil and finish writing your answer when the proctor announces that time is up.

[yeahwho]

We can leave already, do not believe otherwise. Every twist and turn of manipulation as to why we stay is utter bullshit.

Nixon was pulling this exact same propaganda over three decades ago. Here is his spin on why Vietnam must continue, link me (http://www.earthstation1.com/History/Vietnam/Nixon-VietNam&WWIII6605.mp3)

[Waus]

Yeah. McCain argued in the last debate that we could've won Vietnam if public sentiment hadn't gone sour.

Doubt it.


Here's McCain and Paul arguing about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kvfBM9cPVQ

Acc. to McCain and the sources he mentions the difference is that Iraq would follow us home. I disagree.

edit: the crowd at this debate was wildly divided. There were boos and cheers for the same sentence!

[Randetica]

i wont leave it, i would miss all the sandy vaginas!

[Schmeltz]

It is impossible at this point to imagine a Middle East without a lasting American military influence. Bottom line. Like it or not the catastrophic ineptitude of the Bush administration has created a situation that will dramatically affect global relations for the immediate future, and all of its associated problems will continue to affect our collective circumstances for many years.

To see this we have only to consider the reality of major human relations as influenced by the Bushies. The nation of Iraq has become an anarchic breeding ground for a diverse body of battle-hardened fundamentalist militants with years of experience in successfully confronting the most sophisticated military machine ever engineered by the Western world; our own security apparatus, abused and squandered by the most inept governing body ever elected in the Western world. The insane regression of the Taliban - the vicious ethno-religious fundamentalism that produced a harbour for Osama bin Laden - is spreading through the frontier regions of Pakistan in the face of a weak and corrupt military dictatorship, hitherto propped up by the Bushies, that currently confronts an internal crisis of huge proportions. The prospects for real Western political leadership are dim and insubstantial, and the secular political entities of the Middle East, the front-line bulwark against the continued perversion of a major world religion, are for the most part worthless and insubstantial puppets, tools of resource-hungry international corporations with the singular goal of enriching a select subset of the world's wealthy elite classes.

It's a grim situation. But I continue to believe that it is not too late to salvage this shitstorm, and that there exists a direct potential for us to employ perfectly legal and traditional mechanisms to reverse these trends. But at the same time it is foolish to imagine that any degree of disengegament with the Middle East will constitute a productive opportunity for this type of resolution. It is up to us to make a useful fix of the situation with which we have been left, and simply backing out of the commitments that have already been made - however much we would wish to undo them - will not solve anything.

There will be American troops in Iraq for a generation at least. It is an unavoidable consequence of the missteps that have taken place in the last six years. But it is not too late to use that fact as an opportunity for cultural engagement, for the dispersion of humanist ideology, for the revitalization of both Western and Islamic cultures. It is not too late to redefine the terms of how we understand this interaction - how can it be, when we have no other choice?

Don't throw in the towel. There's hope yet.

[yeahwho]

It is impossible at this point to imagine a Middle East without a lasting American military influence. Bottom line. Like it or not the catastrophic ineptitude of the Bush administration has created a situation that will dramatically affect global relations for the immediate future, and all of its associated problems will continue to affect our collective circumstances for many years.

To see this we have only to consider the reality of major human relations as influenced by the Bushies. The nation of Iraq has become an anarchic breeding ground for a diverse body of battle-hardened fundamentalist militants with years of experience in successfully confronting the most sophisticated military machine ever engineered by the Western world; our own security apparatus, abused and squandered by the most inept governing body ever elected in the Western world. The insane regression of the Taliban - the vicious ethno-religious fundamentalism that produced a harbour for Osama bin Laden - is spreading through the frontier regions of Pakistan in the face of a weak and corrupt military dictatorship, hitherto propped up by the Bushies, that currently confronts an internal crisis of huge proportions. The prospects for real Western political leadership are dim and insubstantial, and the secular political entities of the Middle East, the front-line bulwark against the continued perversion of a major world religion, are for the most part worthless and insubstantial puppets, tools of resource-hungry international corporations with the singular goal of enriching a select subset of the world's wealthy elite classes.

It's a grim situation. But I continue to believe that it is not too late to salvage this shitstorm, and that there exists a direct potential for us to employ perfectly legal and traditional mechanisms to reverse these trends. But at the same time it is foolish to imagine that any degree of disengegament with the Middle East will constitute a productive opportunity for this type of resolution. It is up to us to make a useful fix of the situation with which we have been left, and simply backing out of the commitments that have already been made - however much we would wish to undo them - will not solve anything.

There will be American troops in Iraq for a generation at least. It is an unavoidable consequence of the missteps that have taken place in the last six years. But it is not too late to use that fact as an opportunity for cultural engagement, for the dispersion of humanist ideology, for the revitalization of both Western and Islamic cultures. It is not too late to redefine the terms of how we understand this interaction - how can it be, when we have no other choice?

Don't throw in the towel. There's hope yet.

Why do we need military presence for a generation to fix the damage we've done? Our economy is going to go into the crapper, we've seen close to 4000 US soldiers KIA, the military is a total fucking mess from recruitment skills to veteran's care.

To top it off the the human misery and suffering has hit the charts as far as an international man made catastrophe in the world today. BTW the trillion dollar debt is just beginning to hit the paper that holds up our flimsy market.

This idea that US global hegemony can be maintained through the use of overwhelming force against weaker, asset-rich nations points up to the fact that it is the US that is the problem power in the world at the moment.

To what end are we willing to cover these incredibly horrid mistakes made by the Bush administration?

[Schmeltz]

Why do we need military presence for a generation to fix the damage we've done?

In my opinion it has to do with the monster the Bush administration has helped to create (though it was born decades ago and has evolved over the years in reaction to events). The material damage from the war could probably be fixed fairly quickly if circumstances allowed it. But the real consequence of the fighting is the dramatic upturn in regressive fundamentalist Islam, and the associated creation of a highly skilled and elusive (though also fractured and diverse) terrorist combat element to promote it. The existence of this element is the real reason American troops (and other military contributions from the West) will be needed in the Middle East, for the actual governments of the region are totally unable to stand up to these forces (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2007/07/saudi_arms_deal_another_poke_i.html). They are too weak and too corrupt; to see this we have only to look at the situation in Pakistan, which can easily be imagined taking place in many other Middle Eastern countries with equally precarious and ineffectual governments.

If America ceased to prop up the petty dictatorships and bloated monarchies with whom it currently does business these would fall to the resurgent forces of Islamic terrorism, probably in fairly short order, as Afghanistan did a generation ago. Not only would this be a humanitarian catastrophe of historic proportions, but the ramifications for the Western economy - with the flow of oil shut off, as would most certainly take place - would be disastrous. To prevent this from happening requires an American military presence because only American forces, even after their misuse by the Bushies, have the wherewithal to fight and win the battles needed to subdue a generation of militants wedded to a vicious, destructive vision of Islam.

Naturally this is not enough and to be effective the military presence has to be contextualized with a productive and progressive diplomatic engagement with the Middle East, with harmonious economic relations, with mutually beneficial cultural understanding (at least more than we have now, which is in some ways worse than it's ever been). But it still has to be there, distasteful though it may be, because the alternative is even worse, I think.

[yeahwho]

I fully understand the implications and fallout of a military withdrawal. The fact of the matter is this 4.2 million Iraqi's (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5363428.html) have been mis-placed since the US led invasion of Iraq. Life or Death is why. We're not going to see any diplomatic change in Iraq for decades with or without military presence.

The Australian and Polish governments will have a complete withdrawal in 2008 while the UK is going to significantly lower their troop presence to 2,500 by Spring.

What we are doing now in Iraq is trying to prevent a terror hub and oil interests. This is what it boils down to. Each minute we are spending $500,000 in Iraq. Our losses are incalculable. It is time to remove our military forces from Iraq. I believe we are smarter, much more intelligent and incredibly effective as a power that negotiates the level of involvement with allies than becomes subservient to the threat of terror from mainly our own fucked up intelligence. We're playing the weaker hand by staying involved as we drain our own most valuable resources right down the toilet.

[Schmeltz]

I believe we are smarter, much more intelligent and incredibly effective as a power that negotiates the level of involvement with allies


The paradox is that America's allies in the Middle East are only maintained in their existence through American military aid and intervention. If your armed forces withdraw from Iraq, what will become of it? Nouri al-Maliki will not be the PM for long, that's a certainty. Shit, he probably wouldn't live out the day. Who will replace him? Moqtada al-Sadr and his theocrat Mahdi Army, the guys who dump a dozen tortured corpses around Baghdad every day?

If your troops are withdrawn now it will only cost more time and money to send them back when the battle-hardened proponents of militant Islam turn on Iraq's neighbours. Iraq was a horrible mistake but the way to fix it is not to toss it aside and cross your fingers.

[yeahwho]

The paradox is that America's allies in the Middle East are only maintained in their existence through American military aid and intervention. If your armed forces withdraw from Iraq, what will become of it? Nouri al-Maliki will not be the PM for long, that's a certainty. Shit, he probably wouldn't live out the day. Who will replace him? Moqtada al-Sadr and his theocrat Mahdi Army, the guys who dump a dozen tortured corpses around Baghdad every day?

If your troops are withdrawn now it will only cost more time and money to send them back when the battle-hardened proponents of militant Islam turn on Iraq's neighbours. Iraq was a horrible mistake but the way to fix it is not to toss it aside and cross your fingers.

Battle hardened or not, Iraq does not stand a chance against Iran. It will be the other way around, Iraq will be invaded by Iran. To the south you have Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, we've been there, we've done that. Our presence isn't going to completely disappear in a year, but within two years serious withdrawal and diplomatic pressure can be much more effective than this continued fight amongst the poor bastards leftover. We're becoming weaker by staying in Iraq on multiple levels. At some point we will leave Iraq and it will be ugly at that juncture, today, tomorrow or 50 years from now.

We're not going to uncreate a safe harbor for terrorists by continued war. The only time in recent memory I can remember that happening is WWII and an atomic bomb. The only real choice is an unleashed complete brutal war or leaving. Staying this course is 10,000 people dead per year at an unsurmountable cost which eventually will bankrupt the very democracy we're supposedly trying to bring forth.

I do not understand the benefit of staying. The exit strategy is much more appealing for all involved. The Iraqi borders have been watched and on edge for decades, and will be for many more to come.

[Schmeltz]

Battle hardened or not, Iraq does not stand a chance against Iran. It will be the other way around, Iraq will be invaded by Iran.

I don't believe so, if only because Iran does not have the capability to mount an invasive ground war free from interference on the part of the massive US 5th Fleet based in Bahrain, which irrespective of developments in Iraq is very unlikely to move elsewhere in the near future. The Iranians would never risk their air force against that of the Americans, which would crush them and make sitting ducks out of their forward and supply ground columns, given overwhelming US air superiority. Everybody remembers the Highway of Death, Iran probably more than most, and I don't think the Iranians are that eager to sacrifice their forces. And at any rate it seems to me that Iran has invested most of their military resources and budget into an overall defensive strategy since the Iran-Iraq War ended, hence their extensive network of deep underground facilities (like the Natanz nuclear plant) and anti-aircraft defenses, vs. things like a relatively neglected air force and navy.

Anyway it's a moot point. Iran will not have occasion to invade Iraq anytime in the near future because there will be American troops there. It would be suicidal. They wouldn't dare.

I do not understand the benefit of staying.

I get you, mang. I used to think the same way. But now I think the situation has reached a point where the bad things about a relatively sudden withdrawal outweigh the good things. The more I read and think about what is happening in the world, the more it seems to me that attempting to minimize or reduce the impact of the events we've witnessed in the last few years is nothing more than wishful thinking. I continue to feel that there is nothing to be gained from pretending that it is possible to start from a clean slate, and that the only potential for ameliorating the situation lies in taking circumstances as they currently stand now and working with them. Not removing the mechanisms currently in place, because that will yield disaster, but redefining and reforming them to produce more workable solutions.

But that takes leadership. And maybe we've forgotten what that entails.

[drizl]

the white house does not suffer from ineptitude. george bush isnt failing in his agenda. inept is our media, and our politicians. the PNAC group is too good at what they do. and its sad they are allowed to continue their agenda.

[drizl]

i say military out of iraq, public (sincere) apologies to all iraqis, palestinians, afghanis, iranians, and all others who have suffered in the middle east because of our foreign policy. then help them, sincerely help them.

[yeahwho]

I get you, mang. I used to think the same way. But now I think the situation has reached a point where the bad things about a relatively sudden withdrawal outweigh the good things. The more I read and think about what is happening in the world, the more it seems to me that attempting to minimize or reduce the impact of the events we've witnessed in the last few years is nothing more than wishful thinking. I continue to feel that there is nothing to be gained from pretending that it is possible to start from a clean slate, and that the only potential for ameliorating the situation lies in taking circumstances as they currently stand now and working with them. Not removing the mechanisms currently in place, because that will yield disaster, but redefining and reforming them to produce more workable solutions.

But that takes leadership. And maybe we've forgotten what that entails.

We have reached the point that we can no longer continue to lose lives or spend billions more dollars without some greater assurance that peace can be restored under a plan that would supplant the current one, which is not working.

Giving this presidential administration the broadest benefit of the doubt, we went to Iraq to remove a horrible dictator (I'm leaving out the official line as to why) and to bring freedom to a country whose citizens (4.2 million have already fled and are refugees) deserved it. Peace and freedom have not been achieved there, in part, because of our own botched planning and administration, but also as a result of the inability of the factions there to find common ground around which to unite. What has developed is a civil war amongst the Sunnis and Shiites.

We need to advise the Iraqis that if they cannot agree to lay down their arms against one another and against the U.S. and the diminishing military forces of other countries in three months, we will seek an internationally sponsored division of the country, with U.N. and other Middle Eastern county involvement, into Shiite, Sunni and Kurd states, with a pro rata division of the oil revenue among the three states, with relocations being part of that process. Let them decide what they want.

To me this is long overdue. It is the only solution. It isn't a swallow our pride sort of thing. To stay and think we're going to solve some sort of centuries old ingrained train of thought is insanity. We are literally killing ourselves and 10's of 1000's of innocent people. Let all future blood be on the hands of Iraqi's. I'm not going to guilt trip over a cultural divide that was created way before Jesus walked earth. We ought to get out of the business of military solutions. Set an example with our own withdrawal of US military forces.

Just as many thinking humans agree with these options as those who don't. In fact the majority Wants Troops Out of Iraq Within a Year (http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/394.php?lb=btis&pnt=394&nid=&id=&gclid=CP-r6L_snZACFRVNhgodmGvBqw).

[Tone Capone]

Doesn't this ever get old???

We aren't leaving Iraq. We are stuck in that cluster-fuck. I'm all for pulling every troop outta there and letting the Iraqis do whatever they do rather than to lose another American life... but we are stuck and no amount of saying the same things over and over and over again on message boards will fix that.

[kaiser soze]

Sad to say, Iraq is fucked. I had the chance to read a book Baghdad Burning for one of my classes, it is a blog by a young professional Iraqi woman during the first year of the "war". It is heartbreaking to see what is truly happening over there, the people of Iraq deserve to have their lives back....if that is possible.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

[yeahwho]

Doesn't this ever get old???

We aren't leaving Iraq. We are stuck in that cluster-fuck. I'm all for pulling every troop outta there and letting the Iraqis do whatever they do rather than to lose another American life... but we are stuck and no amount of saying the same things over and over and over again on message boards will fix that.

That is some good old American ingenuity there. Throw in the towel and call it a day. I should just say fuck my First Amendment rights.

To clue you in, the topic is Leave Iraq, once you've entered the thread people may or may not be discussing leaving Iraq. But in a sense I agree with you, with the current numbingly dull state of apathy the topic may as well been Jacking Off.

[Tone Capone]

Am I lying about any of that?

[yeahwho]

Am I lying about any of that?

You must be pretty, pretty proud of yourself. Quite the debater, you've proven even more than your original point.

[SobaViolence]

what is lost on all those Westerners involved at the outset of this mess was the lightning rod this would become. In Islam, adopted from Arab culture, is the sense of unity, tribal togetherness... Umma (community, propagated by the Prophet Mohammed).

Sure, the historical divides between the "Sunnis" and the faction, "Shi'ites" over the rightful successor as Caliph plays some role, but Iran doesn't want chaos and Iraqis don't really pay attention to these divides as there was a secular, open, albeit totalitarian, society before the bombs were dropped in March 2003.

sure, there will be in-fighting, but a s long as the US/white people acting as occupiers are there, there will be violence.

when you/we/they leave, and only then, will peace be a viable option.

ps. and Islam is not a complete religion of peace. get that notion out of yer gawtdamn heads right now.

the world is fucked. deal with it.

[drizl]

it is fair to say that any one person would turn towards violence if decades of foreign interference in their own private business, personal welfare and political system were forced upon them. not to mention those who have been killed, family members tortured, imprisoned without due process etc....

what the fuck would you do?

[Tone Capone]

You must be pretty, pretty proud of yourself. Quite the debater, you've proven even more than your original point.

LOL.

People like you crack me up. I love how you jump to conclusions like that. :D

[yeahwho]

LOL.

People like you crack me up. I love how you jump to conclusions like that. :D

What the dork is up with you tone, just bored and want to flame. Tell me genius what sort of people am I? You do not have the slightest clue. My conclusion that I jumped to is this, you have made a valid point of saying message boards are not a very effective means of changing war strategy. durrrrr