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View Full Version : So, I'm not really a socialist.


GreenEarthAl
02-11-2008, 08:31 AM
So, I'm not really a socialist. I have a lot of friends that are. Socialists. Or communists. I'm more inclined to side with Ferris Beuller, who stated famously, "-Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself."

Sounds good to me. The friends of mine who are into socialism and/or communism all seem to be of a mind to believe "If we can only change the rules to mandate sharing, the world will automatically become egalitarian and fair."

Me. I doubt it. I tend to believe that there are no rules you can dream up, that can not be subverted by those with a different end in mind. I've come to believe this, mainly because of capitalism. When I real bits and pieces of Adam Smith --often credited with being the father of capitalism-- it seems quite clear to me that he had very egalitarian ideas in mind when he was doing all of that lofty thinking. And it seems fairly well substantiated too, that the engineers of this great libertarian capitalistic experiment called the USA felt that capitalism could not help but provide an ever-more egalitarian society that would drive itself toward a just existence for all. The people who were perfectly happy controlling everything and everyone in feudal times (and probably before) have proven quite capably that they can subvert capitalism without much difficulty and make it so that the very few control everything and everyone again for most practical intents and purposes.

Just as a lot of the ideas behind socialism and communism are pretty sound, the ideas behind capitalism were pretty sound. If anyone could create a superior product and bring it to market, and market forces could keep prices down to what consumers could afford then maybe society could march ever onward toward a just existence for all, and be some sort of meritocracy. But the powers that were, were able to get around that with trusts and monopolies, and when governments sought to break up their trusts and monopolies they just bounced back with various duopolies and cabals, and then bought the governments so that the governments wouldn't be inclined to regulate them in any meaningful way ever again. And then they bought the media and all of our culture so that they could send us daily messages about how free and just a society we already have, so people would stop even asking the government for any regulations.

So now we have capitalism, after a fashion --it's similar to capitalism-- and so long as people get a constant influx of stories on the news about people who win $25 Million!!! in the lotto, and baseball players who get $12 million or whatever to throw the ball, and the person who spilled coffee on themselves at McDonald's and got 4 Million, and then an occasional story to remind us about Bill Gates in the business pages, we will all continue on believing that America really does have upward mobility and anyone can make it big and nothing could be more fair than capitalism. So never mind the fact that none of it has anything to do with most people's daily reality --hell, get enough people plugged into "reality television" and the internet and there won't even be a such thing as daily reality anymore.

The most ironic thing of all, in my opinion, is that the USA actually already is socialist and always has been. Never mind the fact that nation-states everywhere have had socialist militaries since times immemorial, but the USA has had a remarkable socialist fire fighting system since before its inception. A good socialist fire prevention system is necessary to protect personal property, you can't very well wait around to find out whether a structure is owned by an affluent person or not or whether anyone can afford to put the fire out, you just put it out. So for protection of personal property a little socialism never hurt anybody. Nobody cries about how a huge beurocracy couldn't possibly be efficient at fighting fires on a national scale. And even industries like waste management and mail delivery where they're trying their level best to prove that privatization can work so much better than huge socialist beurocracies, it requires the same (and even greater) large subsidies and tax incentives to enable private interests to deliver these services that were already perfectly adequate (and could have been eternally stable but not for the huge national debt we started running up in the 80s (in order to procure ICBMs of mass destruction)).

For as much as systems like the postal service are villafied in our media and culture, it's hard to make the case that the USA did not have a fast, effective and efficient AND affordable postal service that was the envy of many nations for at least two centuries. Can be done when the will is there to do it. But then so can it be undone when the will is there to destroy it. And so the Fed-Ex + UPS duopoly probably will eventually overcome the sentimentality that people have for the USPS; when enough old people die and the email generation comes to prominence.

So the point (finally) is this. I highly doubt the world can be made fair through any adjusting of the rules. And I should think that Joe Stalin's USSR should be proof enough that just because a ruler of a system calls themself a communist, does not make them Mr. Rogers. There is no magical set of rules --not socialism, not communism and certainly not capitalism-- that will automatically make a society just and equitable. If your goal really is to make a just and equitable society basic rules of conduct can be a good start, but you need to work systemically, on all aspects. You need to EFFECTIVELY stop those who would subvert those rules, and you need the rules to be flexible enough to change when they can be demonstrated to be unfair. Fair play or else.

Easy enough to say I guess.

DroppinScience
02-11-2008, 05:45 PM
Good to have you back, Al. (y)

That was a great essay and you point out wonderfully that ANY system -- no matter its intentions -- can be subverted for ill. It's just the challenges of preventing it from going corrupt. Perpetually change the system once it goes antiquated?

EN[i]GMA
02-11-2008, 10:18 PM
It's refreshing to read this from you, because it's exactly how I feel.

I actually call myself a socialist, not because I really AM a socialist, but I feel like a socialist -- I'd like to be a socialist. But I can't. I just can't see what's there.

Whenever I argue with the hardcore leftists/socialists/communists on other websites, I can't help but see shades of my libertarian self there, and it's not pleasant. Such assuredness, such presumption to know how things really would or should work, such profound ignorance, to think that human relations can be axiomatized into a few simple slogans. That's not how the real world works at all.

And yet trying to impartially deal with reality doesn't work so well. I'm probably going to vote for Barack Obama, not because I really like him as a candidate, but because I don't dislike him like I do Hillary or McCain. Is this how it has to be? Vote for the guy slightly better than everyone else, and then through a slow process of accrual, things improve? One step at a time?

This is why I think that whatever comes next is pretty much the current system ammended to get rid of the absurdities. Because the current system does work, to a real extent. We are typing on our computers, we are getting food to eat, at least intermittently, which is still an improvement.

Maybe if we keep tweaking the rules we have, and getting people in charge who have at least a modicum of humanity, we can build a real society up from the shit we're in now.

saz
02-11-2008, 10:32 PM
interesting read for sure. i'm a socialist, or to be more accurate a social democrat, but i'm also a populist. in free market societies, despite regulations, the rich and elite don't need tax breaks, cuts and benefits. they have it good enough, and live very good lives. it's the middle and working classes, the disenfranchised and impoverished that deserve the full attention of elected, representative governments, plus financial incentives and benefits.

at this juncture or point in time, i'm not sure if i can envision the democratic party reclaiming its lost glory of the past with fdr, the new deal, the great society and the war on poverty. it seems that the two main parties are owned by corporations and are subservient to corporate interests, with media annointed candidates fully funded by corporate interests, all the while paying lip service to those who are truly in need. both parties keep moving farther and farther to the right, and under these circumstances it's only those who can manipulate and exploit the free market or capitalistic system who will reap the rewards, because as just mentioned, they are the ones funding candidates in both parties who will immediately tend to their needs, and not the needs of the people.

GreenEarthAl
02-12-2008, 07:22 AM
I haven't been very involved in electoral politics during this cycle. I did a little work (very little) for the Kucinich campaign and signed up to do work for Cynthia McKinney but haven't done much yet. With no tv I tend to forget it's going on.

I think I've demonstrated to my complete satisfaction that electoral politics is a huge distraction, and you can do everything right to try to get your country back from the fascists, but in the end they get to count up the votes and tell you whether or not you lose. "Oh, wow, sorry, you lost again. Imagine that." Moreover, they get to make sure that all viable candidates are acceptable to them before they even put them out there for us to vote for. So I don't have a problem with spending however long on election day going to vote (I view it as "letting it be known that I would still like to have a meaningful say in my government"), but other than that I'd say we're all a lot better off concentrating on what we can do in the four years in between.

We would prefer it if there were some way to take the monies that are extracted from us and divert them toward meaningful and effective support structures from human beings that need it, but the powers that be have demonstrated that they can prevent that from happening. They can abuse those extracted monies --use them for bullying the globe with weapons of mass destruction, keep it and/or give it to their friends, put it to work enriching the already well off, whatever-- as much as they like, so for now it seems like we have to write those resources off and figure out what resources we still have to work with.

Tompz
02-15-2008, 04:26 AM
Good writing.

(y)

yeahwho
02-16-2008, 09:44 AM
GMA;1557277']

And yet trying to impartially deal with reality doesn't work so well. I'm probably going to vote for Barack Obama, not because I really like him as a candidate, but because I don't dislike him like I do Hillary or McCain. Is this how it has to be? Vote for the guy slightly better than everyone else, and then through a slow process of accrual, things improve? One step at a time?


Maybe if we keep tweaking the rules we have, and getting people in charge who have at least a modicum of humanity, we can build a real society up from the shit we're in now.

I agree with your assessment, I am of a like mind. I think Kucinich is miles above all of the other candidates that were in the race. But even before he bowed out I realized a compromise must be made and Hillary/McCain make me feel like I'm going backwards to a very uncomfortable place. So I compromised many of my own beliefs, just a hunch on my part that in order to move forward to a more just and livable planet the US must change it's look.

The fabric of change takes many different materials. One of which makes myself compromise for a much less progressive candidate than Dennis Kucinich so just maybe we can get a wedge in the door for a bit of social change.

As far as World Leaders are concerned, have them sign up to the International Criminal Court (http://www.icc-cpi.int/about.html) and that way the rest of the world won't think you are arrogant, hypocritical fuckhead who lectures the world about human rights, democracy and international law, and yet refuse to put themselves under any sort of jurisdiction which would mean that they would be accountable for their actions.

alien autopsy
02-20-2008, 06:08 PM
right on with the ferris quote.

all political systems come into being out of a man/womans dreams for a better society. and they always become polluted and distorted by those who wish to exploit.

while i like leary's idea of "tune in, turn on and drop out" i dont think it is the answer... thats not going to prevent another hitler from rounding everyone up in fema camps and starving you to death.

i do feel somewhat hopeless in political systems. i dont think there will ever be a perfect one.

the best we can do is see beyond, always strive for better and know that it is not the end, that there is much more to life than politics. peace in ourselves first, then peace will follow naturally.