Question about depression

[TOY]

Is it true men and women usually hit a peak in their 20's?


Man.. I don't mean to be all sappy-ass and "woe is Bender" about this sort of thing, but I'm feeling it. And hard.

Like- I really can't explain WHY (which hopefully the therapist I'm going to start seeing next week can itch it out of me somehow). When I was 19, started a new job, started dating a dude way out of my league, I felt as if I was on top of the world. I'd look in the mirror and think "Damn, I'm attractive afterall!" Then I turned 20, quit my job, dumped the dude (he was just..annoying), and all of the sudden, BOOM, I kinda hit rock bottom for a while, there- thinking it was just me not being able to find a new job, mainly. I felt no regret in ending the relationship, 'cause it was stupid and going no where.

Anyway, found a new job late last Summer and it's going very well for me. Has even played a part in promoting myself (artistically, I guess). But I'm still super depressed. I've developed this bizarre OCD-esque/hypochondriacal thing, too- to the point where my family doctor has absolutely REFUSED to send me for bloodwork per my request, because I've exhausted all possibilities as to why I've these petty, little ailments I (assume) dream up in my head.

Bottom line; now I look in the mirror and am disgusted with myself physically, which makes me angry, sad and hypo-ish thinking there most be something wrong and I look this way because of it. I won't go out to bars knowing guys will have nothing to do with me, beer goggles or none. I can't deal watching attractive, HAPPY women getting all of the attention, 'cause then the jealousy sets in and I get into fights.


Sorry. I just needed to rant.

[b i o n i c]

depression is this thing that makes you sad so you do shit when you're not doing shit you know you should be doing or some shit. its like parking assist for the mind kinda sorta in a way

[monkey]

i really don't know the answer to your question, i hope someone can answer it somehow. but i'm really hoping that it gets better, for you and for me, cause i can't imagine having to feel like this for the rest of my life. i really hope that with age comes more wisdom and acceptance about myself. i feel like i'm already slightly more self-assured than i was 5 years ago, but the depressive episodes have been hard on me, as i imagine they are on you too.

maybe as one gets older, one just cares less.

[Miho]

I feel you on the OCD part. It is a serious condition that should not be taken lightly. I have it hardcore.

[mikizee]

All I can say is depression sucks.

Sucks major balls.

[GreenEarthAl]

I have a different take on depression. I think that in the same way that pain is good, as it is an early warning system --"Hey man, take your hand out of that fire, fire HURTS!"-- personal depression is like a societal early warning system. Trying mightily to let us know that we (edit: WERE) meant to be surrounded by competent, interesting people and engaged in cool mind-expanding conversations and getting physical with some of them because we find them attractive and are found attractive by them, and then if things are going well at some point, reproduce children with the potential to succeed more brilliantly than us as we tweak in the parenting areas where we feel our parents could have maybe done better. But these days, instead of taking our hand out of the fire we just take painkillers so that our hand can be more comfortable in the fire. We sedate ourselves to get right with the fact that our future is vanishing before our eyes and all of the cool people we're supposed to be cavorting with are cracked-out on everything and can't pull themselves away from "Dance Survivor: Marry a Millionaire" long enough to learn anything else to talk about.

[mikizee]

I have a different take on depression. I think that in the same way that pain is good, as it is an early warning system --"Hey man, take your hand out of that fire, fire HURTS!"-- personal depression is like a societal early warning system. Trying mightily to let us know that we weren't meant to be surrounded by competent, interesting people and engaged in cool mind-expanding conversations and getting physical with some of them because we find them attractive and are found attractive by them, and then if things are going well at some point, reproduce children with the potential to succeed more brilliantly than us as we tweak in the parenting areas where we feel our parents could have maybe done better. But these days, instead of taking our hand out of the fire we just take painkillers so that our hand can be more comfortable in the fire. We sedate ourselves to get right with the fact that our future is vanishing before our eyes and all of the cool people we're supposed to be cavorting with are cracked-out on everything and can't pull themselves away from "Dance Survivor: Marry a Millionaire" long enough to learn anything else to talk about.

I'm way too tired to digest that right now

[DipDipDive]

Sure it does.

He's basically saying that perhaps for most people, depression is just a realization that life isn't and probably never will be what you want it to be. Some people deal with that by feeling sad from time to time, others deal with it by distracting themselves with reality television and celebrity gossip in an attempt to dumb down their own pain.

Makes perfect sense. I'd rather be amongst the former group, that's for sure. Your chances for life BECOMING what you want it to be are much greater if you embrace your pain, accept that it's a part of who you are, and learn to deal with it.

EDIT: And to answer your question, TOY, no, I don't believe people peak in their 20's. I subscribe to the idea that the key to happiness is self-actualization, which doesn't occur until you've aged significantly. If we were all fully self-actualized by the time we were 25, our life spans would be much shorter. You've got a lot of life to live. Don't be so hard on yourself for not having it all figured out yet. I sure as hell don't, but if I did, what would I have to look forward to?

[TOY]

in layman's terms? because this makes no sense at all.

I think what he's trying to get at is, you know, drugs to sedate or zombify are bad, m'kay. Instead of using prescription medication as a crutch to get over our depression and/or anxieties, we should get over/learn from our weaknesses without said crutch. The other stuff? I dunno. He lost me there.


I'm not about ready to jump the gun in asking for medicine. I've been down that road before, and it was kinda exhausting. The point in me seeing a therapist is, basically, to help with getting over life's hurdles a normal, self-sufficient person deals with everyday no problem. I want my confidence back. Or at least some of it. I'm lucky enough to say that I DO have support from friends and family alone, which I would never take for granted. But I feel they're simply placating me because they care.

[kll]

now that i'm out of my 20s and into my 30s, i would never want to go back to my 20s. i know myself and what i want, i know how little i thought i knew back then. i'll probably say the same thing about my 30s when i'm in my 40s. life constantly changes - just when you think everything goes to shit, something amazing happens and you can't believe how shitty you felt the day or week or month before. then shit happens again. then something great. life becomes interesting and an adventure, but you have to be out there living it to reap the benefits.

when i look back to when i was depressed, i felt trapped, like there was no where else to go and nothing else to do. driving into oncoming traffic seemed like a good idea. then something in me clicked (out of nowhere), i became strong and made some massive changes (and risks)and i feel like the depression belonged in a different person's life.

[GreenEarthAl]

I will try to rephrase:


TOY & Monkey are two unquestionably beautiful young women. They should have (in my view) been told a million times by now how beautiful they are by sincere adults and peers all along their development. When a child is in their formative years they are accepting of comments about their worth and beauty and talents etc. When they get to adulthood without having heard this enough you have to tell them 100 times as much with 100 times more sincerity for it to make any impact. Hence: living in a lame ass society where we are not convinced of our beauty and value is a GOOD reason to be depressed.


Humans are (in my view) communal. They are meant to do shit together, collaborate and have fun. Looking around at all these people living without a life makes ME want to be depressed. The lack of support structures and interesting peers to move through the world with and touch and touch their bum and giggle and all that is a GOOD reason to be depressed.


Depression is supposed to be there. It's supposed to alert you to the fact that everything sucks so that you can do something about it. But the tiny handful of people that benefit from the fact that everything sucks figured out that they could get everyone to blame themselves, or their genes or their parents for their depression, and then they could medicate their depression so that they could FEEL better about the fact that everything sucks, and resign themselves to their belief that they can't change things and make them not suck anymore.

[b i o n i c]

depression is this thing that makes you sad so you do shit when you're not doing shit you know you should be doing or some shit. its like parking assist for the mind kinda sorta in a way

this was my buzzed way of sorta saying what gea said

[GreenEarthAl]

I'll probably already be here when you get to the ashram. We can hang out.

[BangkokB]

If you're talking about seeing a "therapist" then I'll give you this little pearl of wisdom from my experience taking that route~ Ask them if they've seen what you've seen or feel the lack of. If they're honest then they haven't. And if they have then good on them~ not everybodies life journey is the same as others.

Depression is a fact of life: Even Alexander the Great had bad days.

Life is Funny:Even when you want to put a number on it. I'm doing more drugs now at 36 than I was at 31. Statistically that's an anomaly. We, as a people, are constantly supposedly evolving or in my case I like to destroy who I am and devolve to the point that I take what I've learned at that last point of greatness and start from scratch there.

You're only crazy if you keep making the same fuckups and expect different results.

I don't recommend for anyone to go down my rabbit hole. Although, I love it here but I'm a high risk individual. And yes, even I have my foggy days.

[Dorothy Wood]

I think there's a lot of unnecessary pressure put on people to achieve
achieve achieve when they're in their 20's. I still get that
pressure...luckily I know plenty of late 20's, early 30's fuck ups who aren't
quite sure what life's about yet either.

It's a very difficult time when you're all of a sudden not a teenager and are
supposed to become an adult just like that. It just doesn't work that way.


I have to remind myself everyday that I'm okay. I was with someone who I thought I would marry. and with that comes the idea of, "well, I'll get
stuff figured out later when we're making a life together", like starting a
business or doing more art. but now that we've broken up, I realize that I
have to work on developing myself and making myself happy without
relying on other people. Which is hard, it's hard to be happy in this world
if you're not an idiot. Sometimes I don't know what the point of life is
and want it to be over, but then I remember the great times I've had and
try to focus on what I do have. after I cry my face off, of course. :/

and I would just put the idea of meeting men at bars out of your head. Not
because you're not good looking, but because that's just a terrible place to
meet a man. unless you're looking for a one night stand or someone to
treat you shitty.

[Echewta]

Depression is a serious issue where you have a chemical miscommunication in your brain. I love how people say "its just the way it is and everyone has bad days." (n)Its not. That doesn't help those who have a serious issue. Just because there are too many people on medication who don't need to be, doesn't mean that its not helpful to those who need it. What if your bad day was actually a few bad weeks?

There is a difference between early or mid-life crisis and depression. Being depressed is different then being sad that you didn't get a job or your cat passed away.

First thing to do is to see a doctor and a shrink to see if you are clinically depressed. A combination of medication and therapy are the best ways to handle depression as well as some serious exercise to get the positive chemicals flowing.

Medication can make you change in negative ways and the first thing you are prescribed may not be the right key to unlock your depression. I had to try a few different medications before I found the right one. With some hard work, I was able to beat the depression and keep it away. It it wasn't because I don't look at life as amazing or was having a bad day.

[djdjdj]

I was depressed for a long time. From about the age of 12 which is when my Father died of Lung Cancer to about the age of 27 or 28 which is when I finally stopped drinking. I love my life today. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.

I experience joy and happieness on a daily basis. I have the love and support of the people around me and I sleep well at night knowing that. If you are depressed, you should get help.

Coming online and trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together isn't going to work. Your perception is clouded by your emotions and you can't see things how they really are because you are to concerned with how you want things to be.

There are people who can help you.

[The Notorious LOL]

My life has seemed to improve with each year. Theres ups and downs definetly but I would say I like life at 27 waaaaaay better than I did at 20 or 21.

[djdjdj]

I don't know about all that. I'm a sick ass dude though.

My life has seemed to improve with each year. Theres ups and downs definetly but I would say I like life at 27 waaaaaay better than I did at 20 or 21.

[Kid Presentable]

I was depressed for a long time. From about the age of 12 which is when my Father died of Lung Cancer to about the age of 27 or 28 which is when I finally stopped drinking. I love my life today. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.

I experience joy and happieness on a daily basis. I have the love and support of the people around me and I sleep well at night knowing that. If you are depressed, you should get help.

Coming online and trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together isn't going to work. Your perception is clouded by your emotions and you can't see things how they really are because you are to concerned with how you want things to be.

There are people who can help you.

Sounds depressing.

[djdjdj]

Okay, miss "I'm stuck in January." It's March now. Get with it!

Sounds depressing.

[russhie]

I have to remind myself everyday that I'm okay. I was with someone who I thought I would marry. and with that comes the idea of, "well, I'll get
stuff figured out later when we're making a life together", like starting a
business or doing more art. but now that we've broken up, I realize that I
have to work on developing myself and making myself happy without
relying on other people. Which is hard, it's hard to be happy in this world
if you're not an idiot. Sometimes I don't know what the point of life is
and want it to be over, but then I remember the great times I've had and
try to focus on what I do have. after I cry my face off, of course. :/

I wake up everyday and have to tell myself that I'm ok, too. The person I love isn't there to prove it, so I've gotta suck it up and get on with my life somehow, even though everything he did tells me that I failed.

For every moment I spend telling myself that I was as good for him as he was for me, that he's the one losing out, that I am ok, there's an equal number of moments when I lose my shit because I clearly wasn't attractive, funny, smart or sexy enough.

I scare myself sometimes, wondering what will happen if I can't get over him - what point is there in existing if you don't have the only person you want beside you - and no matter how much I try to convince myself that I need to focus on myself & my own interests, it still comes down to one thing - I failed. I failed at something I tried really hard at. And that sucks.

[alien autopsy]

its sad that so many people are depressed these days...depressing really!
i agree with al, its a early warning sign for our society. our society doesnt nurture and help human beings...there are many who are there, who want to help, but paying for a shrink, or taking drugs from good-intentioned doctors...its not natural.

a more natural society has all sorts of myth, means of living, and relating that help develop community and a sense of self. it is a cruel world we live in...we are neglected, ignored, and told what to do.

its hard not to feel ugly. stupid and sad. and a lot of the people who claim to be happy, are either on pills, confused or in denial.


i guess the only thing that keeps me sane is optimism. and hope for the future. because my situation isnt all that great right now, but i have these little goals- as insignificant or huge as they may be- that keep me going. i want to have a big chunk of land someday, a small market garden and a cob house. and i think that by doing that, i will be helping the cause for world peace. haha. so i figure everything i am doing today that i dont want to do, is working towards that vision.

see a light at the end of the tunnel and go for it. you are too beautiful not to.

[kll]

*snickers*

"into my 30s"

I guess that's one way to put it.

please return to the cave and make sure the boulder is securely in place...

[YoungRemy]

ask your doctor if Cymbalta is right for you...

[saz]

toy whatever you do don't ever go near pharmaceuticals or anti-depression medication. it's essentially garbage and poison that will only do you harm.

i would encourage seeing a therapist if things continue poorly, but exercise (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depression-and-exercise/MH00043) and proper sleep (http://depression.about.com/cs/sleep/f/sleep.htm) are the best cures for depression.

[Echewta]

:rolleyes:

[saz]

paxil (http://www.sddefenselawyers.com/defectivedrugs/paxil.html)

The reason there are so many side effects with antidepressants, is really due to the lack of full understanding about how antidepressants, and depression, affect the brain. This can can be very different from case to case. Even the drug companies themselves admit that they don't quite know how the drugs work! Antidepressant treatment is often very much "a sledgehammer to crack a nut", especially in cases of mild to moderate depression. Bombarding an incredibly delicate and well balanced system with external chemicals on a long-term basis is bound to create unpleasant side effects. One of the desired side effects is to change the mood of the person taking the antidepressant. (http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Treating_Depression/side_effects.htm)

Antidepressant drugs called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), which include Celexa, Paxil, Prozac and Zoloft, can double the risk of gastrointestinal bleeding, and the threat is more than six times higher if patients take aspirin and similar pain medications at the same time as SSRIs, a new study finds. "Clinicians who prescribe these medications should be aware of the potential risk and may need to consider alternatives," senior researcher Dr. Sonal Singh, assistant professor of internal medicine at Wake Forest University School of Medicine, in Winston-Salem, N.C., said in a prepared statement.
In addition to depression, SSRIs are also used to treat panic disorder and obsessive-compulsive disorder. There's growing evidence that SSRIs may be associated with upper gastrointestinal (GI) bleeding. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/12/AR2007101201546.html)

words of wisdom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHXXTCc-IVg)

antidepressants exposed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sstoa406Oa0&feature=related)

[YoungRemy]

the scariest thought is when they list the side effects for antidepressants, they actually mention that the risk of thoughts of suicide increase.

I'm thinking that depressed people taking medicine that increases thoughts of suicide seems to be a bad combination.

[Echewta]

With proper and knowledgable doctors monitoring your health, while on it, and you being honest with yourself and to your doctors, it can't be as dangerous as the above have mentioned. Its not foreveryone and needs to be prescribed appropriately.
Better take vicodin off the market too. Too many allergic reactions. Bye Bye OxyContin, too many people abuse you. Why those people can learn different pain management techniques is beyond me. Heck, perscription drugs are the big thing now for getting high. Better shut down the pharmacies. Because of the some, better not let everyone.
To totally say don't try it at all, even if your doctor recommends it, limits your ability to possibly get better.
I didn't commit sucide nor did i have anal leakage. I worked together with two doctors and switched medications to find the one that worked right for me, along with other techniques. Listen to what the bee says and take it with a grain of salt. Ops, salt can cause health issues too.
People also commit suicide without it. Hmmm...

[alien autopsy]

for the most part, the pharmaceutical industry is not going to help you. they dont cure you, only make your life worse by suggesting things you dont need and complicating your suffering because they want to cash in on you. i know from personal experience, i have a brother, and a friend whose lives have been ruined because of pharmaceutical companies and the doctors who push their drugs.

my brother- confined to pysche-ward hospital floors for the rest of his life with multiple complications resulting from psychiatric drugs.

my friend is only 30 years old and has a pacemaker now that she slipped into a coma from a vaccine.

argh. i really want to rant and rave about medicine, but this probably isnt the right place.

anyways, toy, things could be a lot worse

[Lex Diamonds]

I am from a family of alcoholic depressives, have had a kinda depressing life so far, and have some depressive tendencies. Regardless, I think the notion of "depression" itself is pathetic.

Fair enough it's not always something you can control, it does have a habit of overwhelming a person, but I hate people who go on moaning about how "depressed" they are when they have a cushty little life with no real hardships. If you're truly depressed you should be getting on with your life, not fucking it up worse by constantly talking about how "depressed" you are. It sickens me that middle class white girls get "depressed" because of an argument with their parents about getting to borrow the car when there are 4 year old children in Africa walking several miles a day just for a glass of water without complaint.

[HotAndWet]

I think what he's trying to get at is, you know, drugs to sedate or zombify are bad, m'kay. Instead of using prescription medication as a crutch to get over our depression and/or anxieties, we should get over/learn from our weaknesses without said crutch. .

Some people really do have serious mental depression that need medicine for it, it's not considered a "weakness".

[cookiepuss]

Some people really do have serious mental depression that need medicine for it, it's not considered a "weakness".

indeed. and I have to agree with what Chewy said too. If it's monitored by a health professional and ideally used in conjuction WITH therapy there shouldn't be much problem.

You can control depression with diet and excercise too. But it takes quite a bit of time and discipline to be effective. and the problem is a person who is so severly depressed that they have trouble getting out of bed in the morning, ISN'T going to be able to discipline themselves into a routine.

Medication works much faster and can give the person the boost they need to become functional again. THEN if they want to focus on natural methods for controling the depression they can get their routine going and ween off the meds.

I take zolof. and i don't give a shit what anyone says, it WORKS for me. I'm able to maintain an even keel on a very low dosage and right now that's what works best for me.

[saz]

antidepressants are dangerous, and if one chooses to use them they're essentially rolling the dice. and besides, doctors shouldn't be prescribing antidepressants, psychiatrists should be, but only when it's the last resort and the patient has been clearly diagnosed with severe, manic depression.

anybody can get themselves into a routine, that's kind of a weak argument. it's called having will power, or getting off your ass and putting forward an honest effort in making a difference. if people have an everyday routine, ie going to work, working 7.5-8 hours a day, commuting and taking care of their home etc, surely they can start exercising and start making better lifestyle and health decisions.

antidepressants also screw people up, by increasing their depression tenfold while also leading to suicidal and psychotic thoughts.

the bottom line is that they're dangerous (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMEy6ukgWlU&feature=related).

[cookiepuss]

anybody can get themselves into a routine, that's kind of a weak argument. it's called having will power, or getting off your ass and putting forward an honest effort in making a difference. if people have an everyday routine, ie going to work, working 7.5-8 hours a day, commuting and taking care of their home etc, surely they can start exercising and start making better lifestyle and health decisions.


no it's NOT a WEAK argument. YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY NEVER BEEN SO DEPRESSED YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF BED. When you've been through that, we'll talk again. Don't you understand that severly depressed people are having trouble doing simple things, even things they use to enjoy? They have trouble getting to work (some people loose thier jobs), they don't clean thier house. The can't muster the energy to walk thier dogs. they don't do the normal things the rest of us do. so, NO they can't just say ..."ok I'm going to get up and excercise even though I feel like killing myself.":rolleyes: we're talking about people who barely have the will power to LIVE let alone follow a routine.

Honestly have you ever been diagnosed with depression? cause you don't talk like anyone who has ever really expereinced it.

the bottom line for me: the benefits of my anti-depressant outweight the risks. that may not be true for everyone, but in my case it is. Spew all the "dangerous" facts you want. it's a personal decison made between a medical professional (psychatrist and/or MD) and a patient.

Also the risk of suicidal tendencies of patients on antidepressants mostly occurs in children, teens and young adults. that risk tends to decrease the older the patient is.

[hpdrifter]

I agree wholeheartedly with cp. Your post is naive and misinformed. Try going through it or watching a loved one go through it and then tell me you can just "have will power" and "get off your ass".

Actually its horrible and I hope you never have to experience it.

[TOY]

Some people really do have serious mental depression that need medicine for it, it's not considered a "weakness".

It wasn't a criticism. I was just trying to get what GEA said.

Like I've said- I've been on meds before, but I think the problem was at the time that I honestly, truly did not need them and I was acting like a lazy teenage girl. Now, personally, I could use a good ol' bottle of Zoloft. Though I'd rather NOT and simply just because, at this point I think it's kinda imperative I do- to get my foot back in or whatever.

[saz]

no it's NOT a WEAK argument. YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY NEVER BEEN SO DEPRESSED YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF BED.

and just how do you know?


When you've been through that, we'll talk again. Don't you understand that severly depressed people are having trouble doing simple things, even things they use to enjoy? They have trouble getting to work (some people loose thier jobs), they don't clean thier house. The can't muster the energy to walk thier dogs. they don't do the normal things the rest of us do. so, NO they can't just say ..."ok I'm going to get up and excercise even though I feel like killing myself.":rolleyes: we're talking about people who barely have the will power to LIVE let alone follow a routine.

yes, of course i understand that, so spare me your condescension. perhaps i should refer you to a recent study by duke university (http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2000/09/exercise922.html). exercise is just as effective, and much more healthier and safer than popping dangerous pills manufactured by the greedy pharmaceutical industry. as i just stated previously, for those who are in dire straights, who have severe manic depression, they should be seeing a psychiatrist, and only taking medication if it's absolutely necessary. however, that doesn't mean that doctors should be prescribing antidepressants.


Honestly have you ever been diagnosed with depression? cause you don't talk like anyone who has ever really expereinced it.

you're making another assumption.


the bottom line for me: the benefits of my anti-depressant outweight the risks. that may not be true for everyone, but in my case it is. Spew all the "dangerous" facts you want. it's a personal decison made between a medical professional (psychatrist and/or MD) and a patient.

i love it how you put dangerous in quotation marks, it's almost as if you're implying that they aren't very dangerous, or that you don't take the well documented risks and problems of antidepressants very seriously. again, doctors have no business whatsoever prescribing antidepressants. they are not trained psychiatrists.


Also the risk of suicidal tendencies of patients on antidepressants mostly occurs in children, teens and young adults. that risk tends to decrease the older the patient is.

tends and mostly, but it's not an absolute certainty. just ask the witczak family (http://www.woodymatters.com/).


I agree wholeheartedly with cp. Your post is naive and misinformed. Try going through it or watching a loved one go through it and then tell me you can just "have will power" and "get off your ass". Actually its horrible and I hope you never have to experience it.

here we have yet another one making bold assumptions and attempting to presume that they know my life experiences. i'm sorry, but it is you who is being extremely naive, grossly ignorant, and frankly misinformed. you know absolutely nothing about me, or my friends and family, so please, spare me your sanctimonious condescension.

[Kid Presentable]

no it's NOT a WEAK argument. YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY NEVER BEEN SO DEPRESSED YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF BED. When you've been through that, we'll talk again. Don't you understand that severly depressed people are having trouble doing simple things, even things they use to enjoy? They have trouble getting to work (some people loose thier jobs), they don't clean thier house. The can't muster the energy to walk thier dogs. they don't do the normal things the rest of us do. so, NO they can't just say ..."ok I'm going to get up and excercise even though I feel like killing myself.":rolleyes: we're talking about people who barely have the will power to LIVE let alone follow a routine.

Honestly have you ever been diagnosed with depression? cause you don't talk like anyone who has ever really expereinced it.

the bottom line for me: the benefits of my anti-depressant outweight the risks. that may not be true for everyone, but in my case it is. Spew all the "dangerous" facts you want. it's a personal decison made between a medical professional (psychatrist and/or MD) and a patient.

Also the risk of suicidal tendencies of patients on antidepressants mostly occurs in children, teens and young adults. that risk tends to decrease the older the patient is.

I've been so depressed I couldn't get out of bed. I've been at the point where I couldn't eat for a month. I had the noose tied and all. Eventually some part of you has to make the effort. For me it was trying to be less self-indulgent. For others it's a prescription. You can't begrudge a person for choosing one method or the other. First hand experience doesn't make anybody an expert in anything but their own experiences.

[cookiepuss]

You can control depression with diet and excercise too. But it takes quite a bit of time and discipline to be effective. and the problem is a person who is so severly depressed that they have trouble getting out of bed in the morning, ISN'T going to be able to discipline themselves into a routine.

Medication works much faster and can give the person the boost they need to become functional again. THEN if they want to focus on natural methods for controling the depression they can get their routine going and ween off the meds.



I'm going to quote myself here, because some of you really NEED to read it again.

I'm not telling anyone here to take or not to take anti-depressants. I'm not disputing that there are other methods that might suit some people better...what I'm saying some people have a legitimate need for anti-depresants... so that they can get to a place where it's even possible for them to try to take control of thier diet and exercise so that they can get to a point where chemical dependency isn't nessessary any more. that's my point.

I put "dangerous" in quotations because there is not ONE single drug on the market (perscription or over the counter)that does not have some sort of risk. EVERY DRUG IS DANGEROUS to some degree. I'm not disputing that there are dangers in taking anti-depressants. but I think you're blowing the dangers way out of perportion in comparison with any other perscription drug. You can throw all the studies you want out there, but I garuntee there's anotherone out there that has a different finding. So I hope that if you are so adimately against drugs and drug companies that you take care of your health issues entirely homeopathically and don't use any sort of chemicals. I completely support homeopathics, I have friends who only use homeopathic medicine...but if you're going to say the kind of things you're saying I hope you put your money where your mouth is.

and I do hope you realize that BOTH Doctors and Psychiatrists have been to MEDICAL SCHOOL and BOTH have fairly equal knowledge when it comes to perscribing medication. So I don't think ONLY psychiatrists should be allowed to perscribe psychiatric drugs (many doctors perscribe but also refer thier patients to a psychiatist as well)...now if what you actually have a problem with is the doctors who needless perscribe medications to thier patients because the drug company that makes the drug, flew thier entire family to europe so they could attend a week long seminar on thier drugs...then say that. because thats wrong. But I assure you all doctors are not like that. Some doctors are actually concerned for thier patients. that's why there's something called a fucking second opinion...you don't have to take a drug just cause one doctor perscribes it to you. you can go to another one and see what he/she thinks.

I think a person should make an informed decision about their health...they should look at all the treatments from natural to chemical and i don't behoove you informing people of the risks involved...but you also pretty clearly state that people should not take antidepressants (except maybe in extreme measures)...which discourages a person from looking into whether or not they fit any sort of criteria for a legitimate benefit or need for a drug that might be able to help them. that's what I have a problem with...and Echewta pretty much said the same thing.


(btw: why do I think you've never had severe depression? Because to say that you just have to "have the will power to get off you ass and do something" shows absolutley no compassion for the dispair that is true depression. most severly depressed people don't want to be drepressed. they'd like to get off thier ass...but they are in a place where it's difficult to help themselves)

[Kid Presentable]

You only know about your own experience.

[cookiepuss]

oh fuck me. :rolleyes: you are impossible.

actually I know about other peoples experiences. see cause I know other depressed people. I've seen people handle depression in a lot of different ways.

but I still think some people have a legitimate need for drugs. natural is better and ideal. i never said it wasn't. but I think some people benefit from drugs. oh, and a person with the help of a professional should decide what treatment is best for them.

[Kid Presentable]

Congratulations for being the only person in the world who knows people with issues. Too bad there's nary a pill in sight for being a chronic know-it-all.

[cookiepuss]

you're an ass.

yep I know every thing about depression. that's exactly what I said and think.:rolleyes:

maybe you should actually read my posts. I'm done with this shit.

[AceFace]

just a quick chime in here. i went through this anxiety kinda thing last year. no need to get into the specifics, lets just say it took over my life.

i took some anti depression meds for two months and they really helped me. i didn't need them long. just long enough to help kick that anxiety out and restore my body back to normal. i couldn't have done it without them. i know b/c i tried! i tried REALLY hard! i went to a therapist. i talked it all out. it was terrible. nothing worked.

i'm so glad those pills were there to help me when all else failed. and i'm equally glad that i don't have to take them now.

[bigblu89]

It's a very difficult time when you're all of a sudden not a teenager and are supposed to become an adult just like that. It just doesn't work that way.

I kinda agree with that, but one of the big problems is that there are too many people that sit around and do NOTHING while they're building towards becoming an "adult", assuming that one day, it'll all just "click".

I seem to be in the minority here, as I loved my late teen/early 20 years. And I wouldn't consider myself a "success story". Only went to Community College, I have a "job" as opposed to a "career". But I've been able to make the best of what I have. I took my limited skill set, and my Community College degree, and turn it into a decent paying job that makes me happy.

Not that any of you are guilty of this, but there are way too many people that prefer to complain and feel down about their problems, as opposed to going out there and doing something about them.

No one's going to feel sorry for you, they're too busy feeling sorry for themselves.

And GEA, as usual, everything you say is pretty spot on.

[HotAndWet]

sazi, you sound like a scientologist.
Why don't you go back to the political forum to argue with the tards in there? You've obviously never been or known someone that was/is seriously depressed.

[saz]

I'm going to quote myself here, because some of you really NEED to read it again.

I'm not telling anyone here to take or not to take anti-depressants. I'm not disputing that there are other methods that might suit some people better...what I'm saying some people have a legitimate need for anti-depresants... so that they can get to a place where it's even possible for them to try to take control of thier diet and exercise so that they can get to a point where chemical dependency isn't nessessary any more. that's my point.

yes, i got your point. i understood what you were saying.


I put "dangerous" in quotations because there is not ONE single drug on the market (perscription or over the counter)that does not have some sort of risk. EVERY DRUG IS DANGEROUS to some degree. I'm not disputing that there are dangers in taking anti-depressants. but I think you're blowing the dangers way out of perportion in comparison with any other perscription drug.

no i'm sorry, i'm not blowing the dangers way out of proportion. antidepressants can not only increase depression and anxiety, but also have caused people to commit suicide. approximately 20,000 (http://www.woodymatters.com/other.html) americans have died due to antidepressant drug-induced suicide since prozac first hit the market.


You can throw all the studies you want out there, but I garuntee there's anotherone out there that has a different finding.

no, i don't think so. you're just speculating and making some sort of vague assumption, sorry.


So I hope that if you are so adimately against drugs and drug companies that you take care of your health issues entirely homeopathically and don't use any sort of chemicals. I completely support homeopathics, I have friends who only use homeopathic medicine...but if you're going to say the kind of things you're saying I hope you put your money where your mouth is.

yes, but prescription medication only if it's absolutely necessary. people should focus on building and maintaining a strong immune system.


and I do hope you realize that BOTH Doctors and Psychiatrists have been to MEDICAL SCHOOL and BOTH have fairly equal knowledge when it comes to perscribing medication. So I don't think ONLY psychiatrists should be allowed to perscribe psychiatric drugs (many doctors perscribe but also refer thier patients to a psychiatist as well)...now if what you actually have a problem with is the doctors who needless perscribe medications to thier patients because the drug company that makes the drug, flew thier entire family to europe so they could attend a week long seminar on thier drugs...then say that. because thats wrong. But I assure you all doctors are not like that. Some doctors are actually concerned for thier patients. that's why there's something called a fucking second opinion...you don't have to take a drug just cause one doctor perscribes it to you. you can go to another one and see what he/she thinks.

yes, but medical doctors aren't trained psychiatrists, and have no business prescribing antidepressants.


I think a person should make an informed decision about their health...they should look at all the treatments from natural to chemical and i don't behoove you informing people of the risks involved...but you also pretty clearly state that people should not take antidepressants (except maybe in extreme measures)...which discourages a person from looking into whether or not they fit any sort of criteria for a legitimate benefit or need for a drug that might be able to help them. that's what I have a problem with...and Echewta pretty much said the same thing.

what i find perplexing is the degree of anger and hostility i received for simply expressing my opinion on the matter. regardless, people who have problems should be seeing a psychiatrist, and if absolutely necessary, people with severe manic depression should then listen to what their psychiatrist advises and take medication.


(btw: why do I think you've never had severe depression? Because to say that you just have to "have the will power to get off you ass and do something" shows absolutley no compassion for the dispair that is true depression. most severly depressed people don't want to be drepressed. they'd like to get off thier ass...but they are in a place where it's difficult to help themselves)

well, i'm sorry but you're assuming and making another presumption. like kid p has pointed out, the individual in question has to make some sort of first step to making a concerted effort.

sazi, you sound like a scientologist.
Why don't you go back to the political forum to argue with the tards in there? You've obviously never been or known someone that was/is seriously depressed.

i sound like a scientologist because i highly recommend and encourage people with problems, to seek out psychiatrists? why don't you stop assuming to personally know me, my friends and family, and my life experiences.

[cookiepuss]

oh I just can't help myself...I should bother to respond but here I go...

I'm sorry but it happened to be kinda of offensive to SEVERAL people in this thread to say: "it's called having will power, or getting off your ass and putting forward an honest effort in making a difference."

because for those of us who take or have taken anti-drepressants...our effort toward getting to a better place began with anti-dpressants. And we don't happen to feel that decision is/was "weak".


And I'm sorry but still think your whole thing about medical doctors having no business perscribing anti-depressants is total bullshit. it's your opinion and that's ok, but I come a medical family and from my point of view they both have ENOUGH knowledge to perscribe. If a medical doctor thinks the case is sever enough odds are he's going to refer to psychiatrist or consult with one to get an accurate diagnosis. it's also not as if medical doctors get absolutely no education on psychiatric matters. because they DO. they just don't specialize it.

we can agree to disagree I guess.

[Yetra Flam]

personally, i wouldn't trust a GP to prescribe me with psychiatric drugs. I'd trust them to refer me to a psychiatrist, but thats it

[cookiepuss]

people should see the medical professional they trust, whether it's thier GP or a psychiatrist. or ideally a combo of both.

I don't have the mis-trust of doctors that some people have. And that's probably simply because my father was(before he passed away)a doctor. He was well educated and contributed articles to numerous medical books. He was always concerned for his patients and even made house calls. With a doctor as contientous as my father was, I would have total trust in what he recommended. He always researched his cases very well and consulted with specialists when nessessary, as well as, refered his patients to someone else if he wasn't qualified to help. i deal with my fathers associates now for my medical care and I'm not worried that they'll be in any way neglegent. but that's MY situation. I realize not everyone is so lucky.

maybe that information can also help some of you understand why I think the way I do. not all doctors are lap dogs of the pharmaceutical companies.

[saz]

I'm sorry but it happened to be kinda of offensive to SEVERAL people in this thread to say: "it's called having will power, or getting off your ass and putting forward an honest effort in making a difference." because for those of us who take or have taken anti-drepressants...our effort toward getting to a better place began with anti-dpressants. And we don't happen to feel that decision is/was "weak".

well, that's the truth of the matter. if people need help and want to improve, they have to take the first step themselves. whether it's going to see a therapist or psychiastrist, or taking matters into their own hands, the individual in question has to do it. i feel very strongly about taking matters into your hands, particuarly through leading a healthy lifestyle and regular exercise. this worked wonders for me and i hate to sound corny but i can't get enough of living.


And I'm sorry but still think your whole thing about medical doctors having no business perscribing anti-depressants is total bullshit. it's your opinion and that's ok, but I come a medical family and from my point of view they both have ENOUGH knowledge to perscribe. If a medical doctor thinks the case is sever enough odds are he's going to refer to psychiatrist or consult with one to get an accurate diagnosis. it's also not as if medical doctors get absolutely no education on psychiatric matters. because they DO. they just don't specialize it.

we can agree to disagree I guess.

to the best of my knowledge, the majority of medical doctors in general aren't trained psychiatrists. they don't know how to diagnose nor treat mental health issues. and you also helped my argument, by stating that doctors will refer to, or consult with a psychiatrist, which is true and right. but doctors have no business, nor the expertise to prescribe antidepressants. but i'm not condemning doctors in general. not all doctors are lapdogs to the pharmaceutical industry, nor to private health insurance firms (http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN3143203520080331). i've been seeing the same doctor my entire life. he's a good man who i trust emphatically.

[cookiepuss]

to the best of my knowledge, the majority of medical doctors in general aren't trained psychiatrists. they don't know how to diagnose nor treat mental health issues. and you also helped my argument, by stating that doctors will refer to, or consult with a psychiatrist, which is true and right. but doctors have no business, nor the expertise to prescribe antidepressants. but i'm not condemning doctors in general. not all doctors are lapdogs to the pharmaceutical industry, nor to private health insurance firms (http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN3143203520080331). i've been seeing the same doctor my entire life. he's a good man who i trust emphatically.

Sazi, the best of your knowledge isn't very good. I don't feel you understand the medical school process. The only difference between medical doctors and psychiatrist is thier residency programs. up until that point they both get the same education...they are both required to study psychology and anatomy, how to diagnose both mental and physical conditions, and they are both educated in all types of pharmeceuticals, how they should be used, and what side effects and drug interactions can occur. When they break off into thier residency that's where thier specialization comes in and they learn how to take what they learned and interact with patients, learn how to do surgery, etc, etc. A medical doctor can diagnose psychiatric problems and when they do they will usually refer the patient to psychiatrist for a second opinion and extensive treatment with the specialist. It's not that the medical doctor is uneducated about psychology or psychiatric issues, they can diagnose it they just don't specialize in treating it because they don't have the time to sit down and counsel the patient as a psychiatrist is trained to do. but as far as the drugs and recognizing a psyciatric condition go they have the same knowledge.

when you see your doctor next why don't you tell him he has no business perscribing anti-depressants to people and see what he says. I have a feeling he'll disagree with you.

[saz]

up until that point they both get the same education...they are both required to study psychology and anatomy, how to diagnose both mental and physical conditions, and they are both educated in all types of pharmeceuticals, how they should be used, and what side effects and drug interactions can occur. When they break off into thier residency that's where thier specialization comes in and they learn how to take what they learned and interact with patients, learn how to do surgery, etc, etc.

right. medical doctors don't specialize in psychiatry and mental health. that's crucial, because antidepressants should really only be prescribed by psychiatrists to people with serious depression. psychiastrists are the experts, medical doctors are not. until there are antidepressants that don't have any side effects and don't result in tens of thousands of people becoming more depressed and turning to suicide, medical doctors, who haven't specialized in psychiatry, shouldn't be prescribing them.


A medical doctor can diagnose psychiatric problems and when they do they will usually refer the patient to psychiatrist for a second opinion and extensive treatment with the specialist. It's not that the medical doctor is uneducated about psychology or psychiatric issues, they can diagnose it they just don't specialize in treating it because they don't have the time to sit down and counsel the patient as a psychiatrist is trained to do.

exactly, we're talking about people's mental health and well being, their lives. these people need counseling, therapy, to spend a lot of time with a psychiatrist, and not a quick visit to the doctor who may or may not give them a prescription, or may or may not refer or recommend that patient to a psychiatrist.


when you see your doctor next why don't you tell him he has no business perscribing anti-depressants to people and see what he says. I have a feeling he'll disagree with you.

sorry, but i'm not going to take a discussion from an internet message board to my doctor's office, which would be wasting his time, just for the sake of this argument in order to expand its scope.

[cookiepuss]

sorry, but i'm not going to take a discussion from an internet message board to my doctor's office, which would be wasting his time, just for the sake of this argument in order to expand its scope.

that's really too bad, you might learn something about a doctors education if you did. I understand it's your feeling that a doctor doesn't know about antidepressants but basically you are wrong. This is something I know about...I know alot of doctors, psychiatrists and psychologist on a personal and professional level and I know about thier education process and what they are and aren't qualified to do.

I'm thinking you won't be mentioning it to him cause you know that he won't agree with you and might even take offense. I'm sure he doesn't feel he's uneducated about mental health. Might choose not to deal with his patients mental health and refer them to someone else, but it isn't because he doesn't know how to diagnose or treat it.

you might as well stop responding to me. put me on ingore if you like. because neither of us is going to be moved on this issue.

[saz]

that's really too bad, you might learn something about a doctors education if you did. I understand it's your feeling that a doctor doesn't know about antidepressants but basically you are wrong.

now your putting words in my mouth. i never stated that doctors "don't know about antidepressants". of course doctors know about them. what i have been arguing is that they should not be prescribing them.


I'm thinking you won't be mentioning it to him cause you know that he won't agree with you and might even take offense. I'm sure he doesn't feel he's uneducated about mental health. Might choose not to deal with his patients mental health and refer them to someone else, but it isn't because he doesn't know how to diagnose or treat it.

now you're presuming to know why i wouldn't take a discussion from an internet message board to the real world. again, i wouldn't bring it up with him because it would be a total waste of his time, and mine. when i visit my doctor, it isn't to shoot the breeze, engage in current affairs or various socio-political issues, nor do i go to see him to debate. whenever i have had an appointment, he is always dealing with a constant flux or stream of patients. he's from one procedural or examination room from the next. so no, i wouldn't bring this up because it would be silly.


you might as well stop responding to me. put me on ingore if you like. because neither of us is going to be moved on this issue.

now you're attempting to tell me what to do, or what i should or should not be replying to. and no, i'm not going to put you on ignore either. you're presuming that you're bothering me, but it's the exact opposite.

[Bob]

Sazi, the best of your knowledge isn't very good. I don't feel you understand the medical school process. The only difference between medical doctors and psychiatrist is thier residency programs. up until that point they both get the same education...they are both required to study psychology and anatomy, how to diagnose both mental and physical conditions, and they are both educated in all types of pharmeceuticals, how they should be used, and what side effects and drug interactions can occur. When they break off into thier residency that's where thier specialization comes in and they learn how to take what they learned and interact with patients, learn how to do surgery, etc, etc.

i dunno. in law school, you're educated in a lot of subjects (criminal law, torts, constitutional law, etc) but if, for example, you try to participate in a criminal trial without criminal trial experience (or the help of someone who has it) you're going to be in trouble. as in, if they catch you, you're going to be disbarred, there are competency rules. there's a difference between education and experience. i don't know for sure how much that difference carries over into med school or medicine, but i bet it does.

[Medellia]

approximately 20,000 (http://www.woodymatters.com/other.html) americans have died due to antidepressant drug-induced suicide since prozac first hit the market. http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/07/09/antidepressants/index.html?iref=newssearch
According to that link there were 118 million prescriptions for antidepressants in the United States alone in a single year. Compared to 20,000 anti-depressant related deaths since prozac hit the market? Pshaw. What a ridiculous arguement, sazi.

I also have to wonder if you're maybe confusing psychiatry and psychology.
exactly, we're talking about people's mental health and well being, their lives. these people need counseling, therapy, to spend a lot of time with a psychiatrist, and not a quick visit to the doctor who may or may not give them a prescription, or may or may not refer or recommend that patient to a psychiatrist.
Yeah, you are. Psychologists are the ones who actually sit and provide counseling and therapy. Psychiatrists are on the biomedical side and don't spend a lot of time with their patients. So, since you don't even know what a psychiatrist does, I find it hard to believe that you are anywhere near as knowledgeable on the subject as you think you are.

And since I know you'll punce on the main story in the link I provided, I don't think anyone is going to argue that antidepressants can be over prescribed, the point was to provide a credible link (an article from CNN in this case) with an approximate number to show the ridiculous gap between the number of people who take antidepressants in a single year, and the number you provided.

[b i o n i c]

It's not that the medical doctor is uneducated about psychology or psychiatric issues, they can diagnose it they just don't specialize in treating it because they don't have the time to sit down and counsel the patient as a psychiatrist is trained to do.

yup,

[cookiepuss]

i dunno. in law school, you're educated in a lot of subjects (criminal law, torts, constitutional law, etc) but if, for example, you try to participate in a criminal trial without criminal trial experience (or the help of someone who has it) you're going to be in trouble. as in, if they catch you, you're going to be disbarred, there are competency rules. there's a difference between education and experience. i don't know for sure how much that difference carries over into med school or medicine, but i bet it does.

Oh bob. <3 Don't you know doctors and lawyers don't get along....:D I see your point...and even though there are similarities it doesn't really carry over in quite the same way when it comes to the area of drugs. they all get the same education in drugs how they are used, side effects etc. they HAVE to know about all drugs other wise they could cause a lethal drug interaction by give th patient the wrong combonation. if a GP looks at a chart and see that a heart specialist has perscribed some sort of blood thinner, they have to know all the drugs that have interaction issues with the drug so they don't kill the patient.

GPs are legally permitted to perscribed anti-depressants and any other drug they can prove is appropriate through documentation of medical records. Yes, there are rules of competency...but my father also worked for the medical licensing board of california reviewing cases to determine legitimate malpractice. So I've also learned a little about what that process is about. GPs would not be allowed to perscribe these medications if they did not have the proper education to be able to make an informed decision that is in the best interest of thier patient. the name of the game in medicine is "kill as few patients as possible" heh.

I actully do think anti-depressants work best when combined with therapy. so I don't negate the psychiatrist at all. but as far as whether you get your perscription from a psychiatrist or GP, it actually doesn't matter. both have the knowledge to do it properly. Also alot of people do thereapy with a psychologist (not a psychiatrist) and psychologist does not have a license to perscribe drugs. a psychologist MUST refer you to your general practioner in order to get your perscription.

[TOY]

My PCP had prescribed me anti-depressants quite often, actually.

My general problem with that? Rather than getting to know WHY I'm depressed, and which medications would work best for me, she was just a HUGE pill-pusher. If I didn't like one, she'd immediately prescribe something else without question. Why? Because she got a kick-back from the pharm companies.

Same doctor's PA diagnosed my sister with bi-polar disorder from a simple sheet of paper. The kind that ask "On a scale from 1-10, how depressed are you?" The PA (not the actual DOCTOR) prescribed a medication for her... We later found out these pills were very new to the market as far as treating said disorder (which she doesn't have). Through our research, and by calling several different pharmacies, we found out these pills were used to treat seizures, and nobody could understand WHY it was even allowed my sister take them. Yeah.

[saz]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/07/09/antidepressants/index.html?iref=newssearch
According to that link there were 118 million prescriptions for antidepressants in the United States alone in a single year. Compared to 20,000 anti-depressant related deaths since prozac hit the market? Pshaw. What a ridiculous arguement, sazi.

the ahrp (http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/28/88/) doesn't champion "ridiculous" arguments:

The analysis posted today focuses on the prescription sales data for Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil, for the years 1988-2002. The results show that the number of people taking an SSRI, and the number of suicides by those taking an SSRI are staggering.

The IMR calculation results show that since 1988, when Prozac (fluoxetine), the first SSRI antidepressant was introduced to the US market: 67,593,612 Americans have taken an SSRI. Specifically: 27,037,820 have taken Prozac; 18,530,071 have taken Paxil-paroxetine; and 22,025,721 have taken Zoloft-sertraline.

When calculated at a 34/100,000 suicide rate, the number of SSRI users who committed suicide totals 21,900. When calculated at a rate of 104/100,000, the total reaches 70,297 suicides by persons taking an SSRI antidepressant: of these, 28,119 may have been caused by Prozac; 19,271 may have been caused by Zoloft; and 22,907 may have been caused by Paxil.

Antidepressant drug induced Suicides: Evidence of "Iceberg effect" Revealed (http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/04/06/10.php)

An Analysis of Use of Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft in USA 1988-2002 (http://www.ahrp.org/risks/usSSRIuse0604.pdf)


I also have to wonder if you're maybe confusing psychiatry and psychology.

Yeah, you are. Psychologists are the ones who actually sit and provide counseling and therapy. Psychiatrists are on the biomedical side and don't spend a lot of time with their patients. So, since you don't even know what a psychiatrist does, I find it hard to believe that you are anywhere near as knowledgeable on the subject as you think you are.

a close friend of mine used to see a psychiatrist. he received extensive counseling. another friend of mine currently sees a psychiatrist as well for his problems, who also receives counseling, or psychotherapy. psychiatrists are trained in psychotherapy. they counsel their patients and spend time with them. i'm not american, perhaps it works differently in the states.