so this pregnant man....

[cookiepuss]

what are your guys feelings?

Personally, I have no moral problem with it. it's interesting. but from the pictures I saw he's had his mamary glands removed so that means he won't be producing any milk for the baby...that seems like a drawback since babies really benefit from breast feeding.

A married man who used to be a woman says that he is pregnant and will give birth to a baby girl in July.

“How does it feel to be a pregnant man? Incredible,” wrote Thomas Beatie, 34, from the Pacific North West of the United States, in the latest issue of the gay magazine The Advocate.

“Despite the fact that my belly is growing with a new life inside me, I am stable and confident being the man that I am.”

Mr Beatie was born female, named Tracy Lagondino, but had gender reassignment surgery and is now legally male and married to a woman.

He decided to carry a baby for his wife, Nancy, because she had a hysterectomy years ago. He was able to get pregnant because he kept his female organs when he switched genders.

“Sterilisation is not a requirement for sex reassignment, so I decided to have chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy but kept my reproductive rights,” he writes. “Wanting to have a biological child is neither a male nor female desire but a human desire.” The couple, who have been together for ten years, run a custom screenprinting business in Bend, Oregon, where neighbours do not know that Mr Beatie was once a woman.

“Our desire to work hard, buy our first home and start a family was nothing out of the ordinary. That is, until we decided that I would carry our child,” he wrote.

Before becoming pregnant, Mr Beatie stopped the testosterone injections he was receiving as part of his gender reassignment. “It had been roughly eight years since I had my last menstrual cycle so this wasn’t a decision that I took lightly. My body regulated itself after about four months and I didn’t have to take any exogenous oestrogen, progesterone or fertility drugs to aid my pregnancy,” he wrote.

The couple bought donor vials from a cryogenic sperm bank and, facing resistance and prejudice from doctors, resorted to home insemination. “Doctors have discriminated against us, turning us away due to their religious beliefs. Healthcare professionals have refused to call me by a male pronoun or recognise Nancy as my wife. Receptionists have laughed at us. Friends and family have been unsupportive; most of Nancy’s family doesn’t even know I’m transgender,” he said.

Mr Beatie’s first successful insemination ended in a life-threatening ectopic pregnancy with triplets that required surgery, resulting in the loss of all his embryos and his right Fallopian tube. “When my brother found out about my loss, he said, ‘It’s a good thing that happened. Who knows what kind of monster it would have been?’,” he wrote.

The second pregnancy resulted in a baby girl who is due to be born on July 3. “I will be my daughter’s father, and Nancy will be her mother. We will be a family,” he wrote.

Mr Beatie would not be the first transgender man to give birth, according to Lisa Masterson, an obstetrician at Cedars-Sinai Medical Centre in Los Angeles.

“A transgender man can be pregnant because he has the same organs as a woman,” Dr Masterson said on the ABC Good Morning America show.

Dr Masterson said, however, that transgendered men face special health risks resulting from their sex change. “It’s really important that he doesn’t take any testosterone early on in the pregnancy and later on,” she said. “That can cause male-type characteristics in the female baby.”

Some of the Beaties’ neighbours in Bend voiced scepticism about the pregnancy claim. One resident, Josh Love, told ABC: “I couldn’t say that he looks pregnant. I can stick my stomach out and almost make it look like that. I think it’s kind of bizarre. I don’t know if I believe it or not.”

The Advocate said it had confirmed the story with Mr Beatie’s doctor.

[kaiser soze]

Biologically he is not a man so this is not a shock, more like a money grabber

He/she knew they could still get pregnant so why should this be considered amazing by anyone?

Why the media attention, this is a woman who decided to become a man in mind and from the waist up.

I'm more concerned for the child's mental well being come the day they are told their dad gave birth to them. :confused:

[Dorothy Wood]

I'm totally gonna date that baby.

[Bob]

I'm totally gonna date that baby.

fucking sicko

[Dorothy Wood]

:(

[TOY]

I see nothing wrong with the whole idea. But if you're that determined in becoming a man, why get pregnant? It defeats the purpose.

[DandyFop]

The whole thing is dumb and creepy.

They were watching him on Oprah at work and she asked about if he got a penis implant.

Basically he said not the testosterone just made my clit into a mini penis.

THAT IS FUCKING SICK.

That poor kid is fucked.

[kaiser soze]

Well he shouldn't continue testosterone treatments or the kid will end up looking like Sasquatch

not that it's a bad thing

[TurdBerglar]

how is that not a bad thing?

[Bob]

sometimes i wonder if issues affecting the transgendered community are things that non-transgendered people aren't allowed to understand

[kaiser soze]

how is that not a bad thing?

they can get a job at the circus!

[funk63]

The whole thing is dumb and creepy.

They were watching him on Oprah at work and she asked about if he got a penis implant.

Basically he said not the testosterone just made my clit into a mini penis.

THAT IS FUCKING SICK.

That poor kid is fucked.


thats definitely gag-reflex worthy.

[cookiepuss]

The whole thing is dumb and creepy.

They were watching him on Oprah at work and she asked about if he got a penis implant.

Basically he said not the testosterone just made my clit into a mini penis.

THAT IS FUCKING SICK.

That poor kid is fucked.

I don't find that sick, really. Our clits ARE a penis that never developed because we got the extra x chromosome instead of the Y. ONE fucking chromisome is all that separates a clit from a penis.

well I guess his wife had to have a hysterectomy years ago so that's why he decided to carry the baby.

[TOY]

I don't find that sick, really. Our clits ARE a penis that never developed because we got the extra x chromosome instead of the Y. ONE fucking chromisome is all that separates a clit from a penis.

well I guess his wife had to have a hysterectomy years ago so that's why he decided to carry the baby.

True (about the clit thing)...

I understand, you know, the wifey's deal and all. But why not adopt? Unless they didn't meet certain criteria.

[AceFace]

i'm with Toy. He made a decision to be a man. he went through all the horrible things that you have to go through to become a man. gender reassignment is not something you take lightly. to me that means he can't have the best of both worlds. he's a man.

they should have adopted. it's not like it's both of their babies. there's no way it's from both their genetic makeup.

god could you imagine being a woman and having with sex with an "enlarged clit" for the rest of your life? i'm talking about the receiver here. the wife.

[NoFenders]

I see nothing wrong with the whole idea. But if you're that determined in becoming a man, why get pregnant? It defeats the purpose.

Well said!!! (y)

:cool:

[NoFenders]

My thoughts are it's a cheap publicity stunt. Maybe they'll get free Huggies and formula from Oprah. I highly doubt they think of the baby half as much as they think of themselves. I hope I'm wrong.

:cool:

[Bob]

My thoughts are it's a cheap publicity stunt. Maybe they'll get free Huggies and formula from Oprah. I highly doubt they think of the baby half as much as they think of themselves. I hope I'm wrong.

:cool:

on what grounds do you base this opinion

[TOY]

on what grounds do you base this opinion

Simple.

They KNOW they're bound to get the negative, and bad press is always good press. I mean- the guy was Miss Hawaii or something when he was a woman, a black belt in karate, blablabla... Come on.

I don't mean to sound backward, but this is like "BAT BOY EXISTS" or whatever. It's a little fucking ridiculous, now. I'm sure there are many transgender people out there happily married and raising children, but they're not showing it off to the cameras.

And seriously- where's the wife in all of this? What's her actual say?

[DandyFop]

I don't find that sick, really. Our clits ARE a penis that never developed because we got the extra x chromosome instead of the Y. ONE fucking chromisome is all that separates a clit from a penis.

well I guess his wife had to have a hysterectomy years ago so that's why he decided to carry the baby.

I don't give a shit, I still think it's sick. Remember Chyna's monster clit?

He was like ehhh it don'tmatta if you're a man or a woman and you give birth.

Yes, yes it does.

I'm pretty open-minded but as mentioned it seems like a pretty big publicity thing by now. Showing the photo shoot for People magazine and shit.

[Caribou]

i'm with Toy. He made a decision to be a man. he went through all the horrible things that you have to go through to become a man. gender reassignment is not something you take lightly. to me that means he can't have the best of both worlds. he's a man.

they should have adopted. it's not like it's both of their babies. there's no way it's from both their genetic makeup.


I don't agree. I find it quite understandable that if a couple have been together so long and want to have a baby together, they will do anything to make that happen. If the 'man' is actually physically possible to carry a baby, when his wife can't, I can see why they would at least try it.
It's not like (s)he had everything surgically removed, he just took some hormones. Without the hormones HE is just a SHE.

Lesbian couples are often an aweful lot like males, but it's ok for them to have children, even if they once chose to not have sex with men.
Why is this case different?

[afronaut]

I don't give a shit, I still think it's sick. Remember Chyna's monster clit?

He was like ehhh it don'tmatta if you're a man or a woman and you give birth.

Yes, yes it does.

I'm pretty open-minded but as mentioned it seems like a pretty big publicity thing by now. Showing the photo shoot for People magazine and shit.

I keep on seeing this growing problem of increasingly younger children having babies in my area. I see 15 year olds having their second child, I see over half the women at my college, most who are younger than I, being noticeably pregnant, or already having had a child. I see poor babies being forced to be raised in an environment of neglect, immature parents, and poor parenting. I see children running wild, not due to "liberal parenting," but due to their usually single parent having had them in their teens, and not knowing how to take care of a baby.

We have children growing up in an environment where they are considered a burden and a nuisance, not as a gift, not as a responsibility to be loved unconditionally. They grow up in homes that were broken before they were even born.

And we have a moral hissy-fit when someone (edit: when an ADULT) chooses to have a baby?

I say, as long as it doesn't affect you personally and as long as that child is raised with responsibility and with love, no one has a right for any indignation. Get your priorities straight. An immature, irresponsible 15 year old teen getting pregnant due to ignorance bred by abstinence only sex education, and having that poor child due to (in my case) bible-belt pro-life pressure, is much, much more sick and damaging than this boring little human interest story.

[Randetica]

how long was i gone?

[AceFace]

I don't agree. I find it quite understandable that if a couple have been together so long and want to have a baby together, they will do anything to make that happen. If the 'man' is actually physically possible to carry a baby, when his wife can't, I can see why they would at least try it.
It's not like (s)he had everything surgically removed, he just took some hormones. Without the hormones HE is just a SHE.

Lesbian couples are often an aweful lot like males, but it's ok for them to have children, even if they once chose to not have sex with men.
Why is this case different?
but they aren't males. they're women. they chose to stay women. lesbians don't even have the desire to BE male.

i think gender reassignment is a good thing if you want it. but i have a friend going through this, and i don't see how anyone making the choice to become male could possibly even think about this option of having a child. i don't think it's just the physical, going through it all. it's a mindset as well. once SHE becomes HE, HE needs to be male through out.

BUT, i'm def not in that situation (thank GOD) and i'm not judging them whatsoever. i just think it's weird, i guess.

i don't think the problem is with the couple having children. they shouldn't be denied children. BUT there are plenty of male/females in the world that can't have children b/c of the same situation. this woman chose to be a man. he needs to live with that decision.

i'm in mental conflict even as i type all that out.

[Caribou]

i don't think the problem is with the couple having children. they shouldn't be denied children. BUT there are plenty of male/females in the world that can't have children b/c of the same situation. this woman chose to be a man. he needs to live with that decision.


If a 'normal', heterosexual couple wanted to have a baby and the woman for some reason wouldn't be able to, I'm sure some men would carry the baby themselves If they physically could.
In this situation the man actually CAN produce a baby, and therefor help his wife create a baby of their own. It's a very strange situation which we normally don't ever come across or really have to think about, but I really don't think that because this person once chose to live his/her life as a man, he can't use his body for this particular reason.
I made the link with gay couples because people often said(/say) 'It's not natural', but them having children is more and more accepted now. This is just one thing we aren't used to...

And as afronaut said: It's most important the child gets raised by loving and responsible parents. Whoever gives birth to it.

[Randetica]

And as afronaut said: It's most important the child gets raised by loving and responsible parents. Whoever gives birth to it.

thats the gayest thing i ever heard and i read the whole thread..

[Caribou]

homophobe! :mad:

[Bob]

Simple.

They KNOW they're bound to get the negative, and bad press is always good press. I mean- the guy was Miss Hawaii or something when he was a woman, a black belt in karate, blablabla... Come on.

I don't mean to sound backward, but this is like "BAT BOY EXISTS" or whatever. It's a little fucking ridiculous, now. I'm sure there are many transgender people out there happily married and raising children, but they're not showing it off to the cameras.

And seriously- where's the wife in all of this? What's her actual say?

i just don't see anything in the article to indicate that these two are any less capable of being normal loving parents than any other people. yeah, the press is covering it; it's a pregnant man, of course the press is going to cover it if they find out about it. what are the parents going to do about it? hide and cover their faces and deny all allegations or something?

i just think it's kind of messed up to jump to the conclusion that they're doing this for the attention and don't have the kid's interests at heart without any evidence whatsoever that that's the case. who has a baby to get attention?

[Bob]

BUT, i'm def not in that situation (thank GOD) and i'm not judging them whatsoever. i just think it's weird, i guess.

no offense, but i think you are judging him. you keep saying "he chose to be male, he needs to be male throughout", you're basically saying "you're doing it wrong, you aren't following the rules." i know you think you aren't judging but i can't see how that isn't judging.

it is weird, i know, but i have no idea how to judge such things, i don't know what the rules are, so i'm just going to abstain from it

[Randetica]

now i want to touch bob's belly

[Bob]

don't make fun

[Kid Presentable]

Beatie's Boy

[DandyFop]

t's a pregnant man, of course the press is going to cover it if they find out about it.


there's a difference between that and getting paid to have a full-on magazine spread about it.

[Bob]

there's a difference between that and getting paid to have a full-on magazine spread about it.

i didn't know about the magazine spread but still, enjoying attention when people want to give it to you doesn't make you a bad parent, not on its own

[TOY]

i didn't know about the magazine spread but still, enjoying attention when people want to give it to you doesn't make you a bad parent, not on its own

See? What you just said proves our point.

I honestly don't care what these people want to do with their lives- I'm not advocating it nor am I against. I'm pro-choice about the issue or similar issues. Do whatever the hell you want. But unfortunately, even in 2008, the vast majority of society's STILL living in a very small world. I would assume, most of the attention they're getting is NEGATIVE- which although I may be contradicting the aforementioned, I find it wrong the dude's got a spread in a mag, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but that child's gonna grow up listening to "Your dad's actually a woman" or "was once a woman", and having to answer questions, defend her parents, blabla. That's a lot of weight to put on somebody's shoulders, especially a child's. It's obvious they have not considered this, and the negativity and ignorance that may later be focused on their child. They could've easily said "We don't want your money" and kept quiet, but chose otherwise.

You can get "attention" and press by different means. Hm.. Let's see... With TALENT, perhaps?

Bottom line; they could've shushed until the child was of sound age and mind, and asked for HER approval whether or not to appear on Oprah, the Today Show, and so-on.

[afronaut]

You can get "attention" and press by different means. Hm.. Let's see... With TALENT, perhaps?


Ha! Talent is the anti-fame, these days. Seriously, when was the last time someone achieved fame by being talented? It just doesn't happen anymore. I think this situation is less opportunism on the parents side (though, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case) and more just a reflection of the times we're in. This is what people care about. Freakshows, trainwrecks, the weird and grotesque. We don't want to see talent anymore, we want to peer into other peoples lives, and the people who afford the populace to have some kind of window to their abnormal fantastic/weird lives are the ones who gain the fame and are the ones who get the photo-spreads.

If a magazine approaches you and offers to give you a good sum of money to be in some photos, well, you'd be stupid to turn it down. Fucking stupid, actually. Especially when you're pregnant and that money can go towards taking care of the child and staying stable. If I was a pregnant man and got the offer to be paid to be in some pictures, fuck yeah I'd do it. Since when did taking advantage of opportunities that happen to come your way become morally reprehensible? It's easy to get on a high horse when you're not the one expected to turn down that money.

I doubt this person is using all of this money to wallow in drugs, or anything like that. I hope, and suspect, that the money is being used and saved for that babies future.

[TOY]

If a magazine approaches you and offers to give you a good sum of money to be in some photos, well, you'd be stupid to turn it down. Fucking stupid, actually. Especially when you're pregnant and that money can go towards taking care of the child and staying stable. If I was a pregnant man and got the offer to be paid to be in some pictures, fuck yeah I'd do it. Since when did taking advantage of opportunities that happen to come your way become morally reprehensible? It's easy to get on a high horse when you're not the one expected to turn down that money.

I doubt this person is using all of this money to wallow in drugs, or anything like that. I hope, and suspect, that the money is being used and saved for that babies future.

They were pretty well off before all of this from what I understood.

[afronaut]

Now they're more well off, good for them. The shallow soul of the American experience is the right to be well off, and then find quick, easy ways to be even weller off.

We don't criticize Britney or Paris or Miley Cyrus or any of the legions of people who are famous for no reason when they do photo-shoots and make money off of them; why the intense criticism for this person because they "gross us out?" I mean, really. I'd rather see not-famous normal (relatively speaking) citizens opportunistically take advantage of the media than some already filthy rich bimbo who is famous for god knows what reason. At least this person can claim to have made some history, Jerry Springer-esque though it may be.

[Dorothy Wood]

I think it's on t.v. because it's interesting and people want to know about it.

The whole transgender thing is pretty complicated. I don't think anyone could understand what it's like unless they were dealing with it themselves. I do think it's kind of strange that someone who rejects being a female would even want to be pregnant though. since that's pretty much the most female thing you could do.

On the other hand, the point of traditional male/female hetero set up is to procreate. Procreation is to maintain the survival of our species. Well, people are evolving and there are now non-traditional partners who are better suited to produce and/or care for a human being than many hetero couples. Humans have a drive to create families, this couple wants a family and they are making it happen.

Society evolves and incorporates anomalies, and hopefully by the time this kid is school age, everyone will be a little more accepting and judge people for their character, not who their parents are.


and p.s. I got made fun of constantly and even beat up sometimes when I was a kid for being shy and weird. and I came from a hetero couple.

[AceFace]

no offense, but i think you are judging him. you keep saying "he chose to be male, he needs to be male throughout", you're basically saying "you're doing it wrong, you aren't following the rules." i know you think you aren't judging but i can't see how that isn't judging.

it is weird, i know, but i have no idea how to judge such things, i don't know what the rules are, so i'm just going to abstain from it

oh i take no offense. really, i think i was being judgmental without realizing it. i try so hard not to be that way and this is such a weird thing!

i DID say that my mind was in turmoil or something to that effect. i usually take the "to each his/her own" road. i don't know why i got so opinionated with this subject.

[NoFenders]

Now they're more well off, good for them. The shallow soul of the American experience is the right to be well off, and then find quick, easy ways to be even weller off.

Say what??? Does that sound right to you???? You just accept it???? When somebody thinks it's their right to be "well off", it's a sign to me they aren't worth their weight in dog hair. Not very proud to be American are we.

We don't criticize Britney or Paris or Miley Cyrus or any of the legions of people who are famous for no reason when they do photo-shoots and make money off of them;

We don't???? I must be all alone then.

why the intense criticism for this person because they "gross us out?" I mean, really. I'd rather see not-famous normal (relatively speaking) citizens opportunistically take advantage of the media than some already filthy rich bimbo who is famous for god knows what reason. At least this person can claim to have made some history, Jerry Springer-esque though it may be.

How about nobody takes advantage of anybody.What a concept! These people should enjoy their time while expecting, instead they've chosen to play the media frenzy game and get paid.So, is it for the money or for a child? When they took the steps to have this done, did they consider the health risks for both the people involved. We all have that right, to make our own decisions, and the choices we make now will have an effect on our future. Exactly whose future does this (media blitz) help?? Yeah, I'm sure it's all for the baby. Just like it was all for a baby for the past 10 years dumping hormones and chemicals into her body to grow a mustache. I'm not a doctor, but I can only assume that these things will have some impact on the pregnancy. Choices like the ones I've seen from them so far don't seem very generous, they seem kinda selfish.

I do hope that all goes well, and it's not their fault that society is a whore, but we as whole can try and do better, instead of dragging ourselves deeper into insanity by confusing children more and more with the actions of confused adults.
:cool:

[NoFenders]

oh i take no offense. really, i think i was being judgmental without realizing it. i try so hard not to be that way and this is such a weird thing!

i DID say that my mind was in turmoil or something to that effect. i usually take the "to each his/her own" road. i don't know why i got so opinionated with this subject.

Proabably because you have a sense for bull shit. :cool:

[NoFenders]

Well, people are evolving and there are now non-traditional partners who are better suited to produce and/or care for a human being than many hetero couples. Humans have a drive to create families, this couple wants a family and they are making it happen.

Which I agree with 100%. It's a great thing, no matter how you look at it. But to see these photo spreads and such as if it's a miracle, is just too crazy for me to give any credit to. I see no reason why they get any attention at all, much less the every day exposure. I see them as attention grabbers. Nothing more, nothing less. When I see that in somebody I don't see much good in'em. It all equals weakness imo, and that's the last thing that should be praised.

:cool:

[kaiser soze]

If this person is having a pregnancy they are not a man.

Men cannot get pregnant.

This is a transgendered person with a preference towards masculinity, ugh wait....

she/he is having a baby

[NoFenders]

I had just read a bit on these two this morning. I guess they're not really in this media craze for the money. But it still is bizzare.

:cool:

[afronaut]

While it seems like you've changed your opinion on their opportunism, I still want to address a couple things you've seemed to misinterpret about what I've said

Say what??? Does that sound right to you???? You just accept it???? When somebody thinks it's their right to be "well off", it's a sign to me they aren't worth their weight in dog hair. Not very proud to be American are we.

Whats so wrong with that? Besides emigrating to to America to escape religious persecution, the main force behind immigration to America throughout history was the opportunity to make a better life for ones-self, which often translates to "the opportunity to be well-off."

I'm assuming you're a conservative because I think I've seen you say something to that extent somewhere, but no offense if you're not, I don't want to jump to conclusions. But considering if you are, I would think you'd be in agreement with me. It would seem that most conservatives and republicans are vehemently FOR this very right to be as well off as you can possibly be, and then be even more well off. If we can applaud a businessman million/billionaire who made his fortune most likely with the help of some shady means, I think we can support this person.

We don't???? I must be all alone then.
Well, there is much public opinion against those people, including from me, but you don't see the likes of O'Reilly or Hannity having a shitfit every time a new Britney, Paris, or Kim Kardashian spread comes out.



How about nobody takes advantage of anybody.What a concept!
I think you confused what I meant with "taking advantage." Taking advantage of a person, or a persons kindness, is bad. Taking advantage of an opportunity is just common sense. If someone offers you money to do something as simple as pose, well, why not do it?

I do hope that all goes well, and it's not their fault that society is a whore, but we as whole can try and do better, instead of dragging ourselves deeper into insanity by confusing children more and more with the actions of confused adults.
:cool:
I understand your concerns, but as Dorothy Wood said, society is simply evolving. This isn't something we'll be able to shield our children from forever, because it exists, and will soon be a mainstream part of society. This is what society does, time and time again. Many people now may be very much against the mainstreaming of gays and transgender folk, but it's going to happen anyway; and in the end, life will go on just as it does now and has done throughout history.

I see no reason why they get any attention at all, much less the every day exposure.
This I agree with. Personally, I feel a) the moral outrage is unjustified, and b) the media frenzy is unjustified. I don't think there should have been any photoshoot or anything like that, but there was, and I don't hold it against them for taking the opportunity. At least they didn't go on Jerry Springer.

As I said earlier in the thread, we have teens as young as 15 already on their second child. I've heard that the average age of pregnancy in Memphis is 11 (I can't find anything on the net proving or refuting this.) Regardless of the accuracy of that statistic, this problem is getting worse and worse. Think about this for a second, think about how a large part of the future generation is going to be raised. It's frightening. Bill O'Reilly and Hannity should be shitfitting over this instead, and Oprah should be raising awareness about this instead; but instead of caring about the real issues, we're hypnotized by the freak-show of an (abnormal) adult choosing to have a child.

[NoFenders]

While it seems like you've changed your opinion on their opportunism, I still want to address a couple things you've seemed to misinterpret about what I've said


Whats so wrong with that? Besides emigrating to to America to escape religious persecution, the main force behind immigration to America throughout history was the opportunity to make a better life for ones-self, which often translates to "the opportunity to be well-off."

I'm assuming you're a conservative because I think I've seen you say something to that extent somewhere, but no offense if you're not, I don't want to jump to conclusions. But considering if you are, I would think you'd be in agreement with me. It would seem that most conservatives and republicans are vehemently FOR this very right to be as well off as you can possibly be, and then be even more well off. If we can applaud a businessman million/billionaire who made his fortune most likely with the help of some shady means, I think we can support this person.

You said it was a right. Takes a whole different way about it when you say the word right. Yes, we have the right to have the opportunity to be well off, but it is not our right to be well off.It sounded as if you just accepted that many people look at life in America as a way to take advantage of a system, and when one takes more than what they expected to get without any work, it should be kudos for them. I see now what you meant, it's just your past post made me wonder. There's a lot of people out there who cheer the bottom feeders on for taking something for nothing. You looked like one for a second. I'm glad you're not.
And yeah, I'm about as conservative as they get.

:cool:

[afronaut]

Well, I think a lot of people, regardless of which country they live, try to take advantage of the system; and this encompasses people from the very bottom to people on the very top, I think. Welfare abusers and business men who abuse and use the system for monetary gain are on the same level, in my eyes.

But yeah, I think in this country we all have a right to be well off through legitimate means. Unfortunately, it just so happens that right now people with no talent or anything to offer society can legitimately gain fame and money. It's sad, but if Paris can do it, I say this person can too.

[NoFenders]

When would you suggest it stop??? Just because one person does it, doesn't mean everyone should.

:cool:

[YoungRemy]

Six inches forward and five inches back
I got a
I got an angry inch
Six inches forward and five inches back
I got a
I got an angry inch